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If there was a Trump-type figure who was a Democrat and the President, they would loudly proclaim that it was wrong for Israel to commit genocide, and then the world would keep spinning. I'm always hearing this idea of "whatever democrats do is the most anyone could have done in a given situation" but it's usually just an excuse to maintain the status quo
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Oct 27, 2023 19:31
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Discendo Vox posted:You have identified why and how these arguments are used to sabotage discussion, and you are choosing to allow them do to exactly that. You have chosen not to enforce the rules. Are there some cases where someone could have made these types of arguments that they did not actually believe in just to piss off posters in D&D? Sure, I guess, I'm sure its happened. I believe most of these posters are articulating a genuinely-held belief which is not obviously crazy on its face. These aren't arguments put forth by flat-earthers or bigfoot enthusiasts. Also, things change. Topics that were once worn out and stale during the height of election insanity don't get talked about for a while, events can revive old arguments, we get new people posting here, etc. I'm sure these topics will get banished once again to containment threads at some point next year.
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Oct 27, 2023 19:35
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Gumball Gumption posted:I'm just so loving sick of being forced into this position by both parties. That the best we get is that I won't die at home if I just turn my head away while they commit genocide overseas. That the best argument for why we don't have healthcare is that the other guy wants to kill me. It makes me feel awful and it makes me wonder why we don't value our own lives. Take this for what it's worth Gumball, at least the Democratic Party was and still is having discussions on it's relationship with Israel and it is not met with this member needs to shut their mouth. 10 years ago, 20 years ago, the discussion couldn't even happen. Ed Markey comes to mind where he basically called for a cease fire almost immediately. Also, and this isn't directed at you specifically but we often talk of "harm reduction" and it certainly is a frame but I think one that reinforces our beliefs. The ACA was not what leftists wanted but saved lives, allowed people to get insurance and have some government backing behind it. Yes, it failed for single payer and universal coverage and didn't bend the cost curve but it also allowed more low income and middle income families protections and healthcare. That's not harm reduction, that's saving lives. The Bipartisan Infrastructure Act and Inflation Reduction Act is meaningful in alternative energy and is shifting us away from carbon, its not a total solution but its providing jobs, making a cleaner environment, and going to set up the next set of alternative and renewables. And that's just the legislative side. I am not saying that DEMS AUTO GOOD and that change isn't needed but when we get into lesser of two evils/harm reduction/bothsides talk I think it ignores what even a small majority of Democrats means in changing our policy for the better.
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Oct 27, 2023 19:46
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I'd say the difference between dems and the gop on israel is that the gop is 100% pro-israel while you can at least cherry pick a few dems that are pro-palestine... and are being shat on by the rest of their party and the mainstream press for it (with the mainstream press also trying to purge out it's own pro-palestine members)
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Oct 27, 2023 19:50
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:One exception is a discharge petition. Members can force a vote on a discharge petition against the objections of the Speaker or Committee Chairs if a majority of the House agrees. Of course, the "Make the majority party look bad by having them vote against it" Bill is unlikely to have a successful discharge petition.
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Oct 27, 2023 19:52
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Rigel posted:Are there some cases where someone could have made these types of arguments that they did not actually believe in just to piss off posters in D&D? Sure, I guess, I'm sure its happened. Not only has it happened, all the specific users in question have extensive rapsheets for doing it! They actively discuss strategies for doing it! Rigel posted:I believe most of these posters are articulating a genuinely-held belief which is not obviously crazy on its face. These aren't arguments put forth by flat-earthers or bigfoot enthusiasts. Insisting that the only appropriate topic for discussion is preparation for violent revolution is not in fact a particularly useful, falsifiable, fresh, or sane belief. That users have over time driven deeper and deeper into these beliefs is a horrible indictment of existing moderation policy. That they are able to demand the durability of a stone in their sincerely held beliefs does not make them good faith arguments; it means they have chosen to reason falsely. Irony poisoning is not a new concept; for the love of god, 4chan started as an SA offsite, this isn't news. Rigel posted:Also, things change. Topics that were once worn out and stale during the height of election insanity don't get talked about for a while, events can revive old arguments, we get new people posting here, etc. I'm sure these topics will get banished once again to containment threads at some point next year. The fact that these arguments are continuously deployed by users throughout the entire loving year to drive people out of this subforum, such that they are periodically trying to handle them with containment threads instead of moderation, should be sufficient for you to be able to tell that they are not, in fact, productive to discussion! Again, you are telling these users they can derail actual, good faith discussion at any point in time, and you are telling everyone else that the thread is a troll's plaything.
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Oct 27, 2023 19:54
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If conversations about electoralism causes folks to leave D&D permanently then that says way more about the people leaving than it does the folks giving their take on whether or not they think voting is worthwhile.
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Oct 27, 2023 19:58
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NY Times published an exposé on Kanye West's relationship with Adidas today. Aside from making Adidas look negligent and stupid, it makes clear that Kanye has been nuts for years--the antisemitic stuff is nothing new. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/27/business/adidas-kanye-west-yeezy-takeaways.html quote:For almost 10 years, Adidas looked past Mr. West’s misconduct as profits soared.
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Oct 27, 2023 20:00
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Because they would have lost, right? 2016 Clinton had wide support among voters, a strong network, lots of energy to elect a woman for President, a great donor base. I forget if there was a rule in here about relitigating 2016, so I apologize in advance. I go in circles about the 2016 Democratic Party primary a lot. I think Clinton had a lot of the Democratic party establishment backing her, especially since she and her husband had been building relationships with other power brokers within the party for decades. Biden was exploring a run in 2016 and he didn't feel like he was getting any of the support from big figures in the party that he thought needed. Even Obama himself didn't encourage Biden and viewed Hillary as an inevitability. Sanders captured a lot of the discontent that many rank-and-file voters actually had (either consciously or unconsciously) with Hillary and made life much harder for her than anyone expected. I do wonder how things would have panned out if Biden had said "gently caress it, I"m going to run." I think good residual feelings about Obama among the party rank-and-file and Hillary's lack of natural charisma would have helped him a lot more than anyone would have expected. At the same time, Sanders got a lot of momentum from first time voters and grass roots donations, right? I'm not sure if Biden could have tapped into that due to his long political record. It's not like Biden did that well in 2008, right? Unfortunately, maybe it was all a perfect storm of poo poo coming from Trump being especially blessed by God.
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Oct 27, 2023 20:01
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Name Change posted:NY Times published an exposé on Kanye West's relationship with Adidas today. Aside from making Adidas look negligent and stupid, it makes clear that Kanye has been nuts for years--the antisemitic stuff is nothing new. Kanye West became viewed as an expensive liability with no customerbase
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Oct 27, 2023 20:02
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Civilized Fishbot posted:
This is accurate. And as we see in this thread, refusing to vote is quite similar.
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Oct 27, 2023 20:02
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Mooseontheloose posted:Take this for what it's worth Gumball, at least the Democratic Party was and still is having discussions on it's relationship with Israel and it is not met with this member needs to shut their mouth. 10 years ago, 20 years ago, the discussion couldn't even happen. Ed Markey comes to mind where he basically called for a cease fire almost immediately. I think those are good arguments pre-October 7th. I also think the cost of all those good things is being party to genocide and I think the cost was too high. I guess I think this is a situation where it does in fact make sense to toss out the baby with the bathwater? I don't care about any of the good if this is the exchange for those good things. Hell, we don't make these arguments when the right actually does something good because we recognize it as a false exchange. No one gets suckered when Republicans talk social service programs because we know there is a large implied "but it's just for the desirables". I feel like I've been suckered into the deal except the difference is that a lot more people are cool with "the undesirables" being far far away.
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Oct 27, 2023 20:04
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Mendrian posted:It's also worth noting that America is rapidly approaching a new stage in its existence where what 'the voters' might want or think is normal might be different from what is important to the health of the nation. Like if the fundamental structure of Democracy is under attack and it would be 'too radical' to propose a change in how we vote or how elections are run, and instead Democrats just pinky swear they'll make things normal again if you elect them, that's not a viable long-term strategy but it would probably be fairly popular among Democrats. Or compromise, feel-good programs to reduce climate change are probably fairly popular but they don't actually protect us from climate change. I can't tell what the heck you're specifically mad about here since the Dems have been pretty vocal about elections and stuff ever since 2020. However, there's fundamentally no way for a democracy to fix "the voters don't want democracy anymore". There's no one weird trick here, no simple bandaids we can stick on the system to patch the issue. Our options are to start convincing and wooing people away from fascism, or to start convincing and wooing the military. There's no systemic change that can fix this. theCalamity posted:A few days ago, McConnell came out and said that he backs Biden on Israel funding. Obama once compared himself to 90s republicans Lucan’s. Schumer suggested going after Republican votes at the expense of Democratic votes. The equivocation is coming from inside the house. So go out there and convince other people to support those things you want. Until your personal wishlist of political essentials is overwhelmingly popular and high on the wishlists of much of the populace, you are going to have to settle for not getting everything you want. You'll have to cut your voting decision down to the things that you care the most about, and choose to deprioritize or outright abandon issues you care less about. Of course, that's exactly what you're doing here, even if you're not really thinking about it with that framing. If freeing Palestine is important enough for you personally that you're not willing to vote for a pro-Israel candidate - even if that candidate is the only one in the race that supports abortion and gay rights - then that means you're prioritizing Palestine over those other issues. Which is your decision to make, but you don't get to blast people for prioritizing abortion and gay rights over Palestine while you're prioritizing Palestine over their rights.
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Oct 27, 2023 20:05
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Digamma-F-Wau posted:I'd say the difference between dems and the gop on israel is that the gop is 100% pro-israel while you can at least cherry pick a few dems that are pro-palestine... and are being shat on by the rest of their party and the mainstream press for it (with the mainstream press also trying to purge out it's own pro-palestine members) Does Vivek Ramaswamy count as GOP? quote:The entrepreneur is one of the loudest advocates in the field for American isolationism in foreign policy. He's extended that stance to Israel, saying that the U.S. should phase out aid for Israel.
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Oct 27, 2023 20:05
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Gumball Gumption posted:I think those are good arguments pre-October 7th. I also think the cost of all those good things is being party to genocide and I think the cost was too high. I guess I think this is a situation where it does in fact make sense to toss out the baby with the bathwater? I don't care about any of the good if this is the exchange for those good things. Hell, we don't make these arguments when the right actually does something good because we recognize it as a false exchange. No one gets suckered when Republicans talk social service programs because we know there is a large implied "but it's just for the desirables". I feel like I've been suckered into the deal except the difference is that a lot more people are cool with "the undesirables" being far far away. Just keep in mind that any vote for, say, Cornel West, is a vote for genocide of Ukrainians.
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Oct 27, 2023 20:08
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well it's not like Palestinians wouldn't be genocided if the republicans were in power. It's not "things are better for us and worse for Palestine vs things are worse for us and better for Palestine"; it's "things are better for us but Palestine is getting shat on vs things are worse for us and Palestine is getting just as shat on"; our comparative lack of suffering isn't being tied to Palestinian suffering.The Top G posted:Does Vivek Ramaswamy count as GOP? huh, well then Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:You forgot the second half of his position: ah that's more consistent with what I expected Digamma-F-Wau fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Oct 27, 2023 |
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Oct 27, 2023 20:08
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Discendo Vox posted:Insisting that the only appropriate topic for discussion is preparation for violent revolution is not in fact a particularly useful, falsifiable, fresh, or sane belief. If anything, SA is the last place you should be discussing preparation for a violent revolution. OPSEC is a thing.
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Oct 27, 2023 20:12
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The Top G posted:Does Vivek Ramaswamy count as GOP? You forgot the second half of his position: quote:Ramaswamy’s website posted a fact-check statement, saying that the candidate "won’t cut aid to Israel until Israel tells the U.S. that it no longer needs the aid. That’s what true friends do: they’re honest with each other. We expect that of our friends in Israel, And [sic] when Israel gets to that point, we should all rightly celebrate it as a mark of achievement and pride for both the U.S. and Israel. That’s what Vivek actually said, so don’t believe the opponents’ lies that he wants to cut aid to Israel—which makes zero sense as a foreign policy priority any time in the foreseeable future." quote:"In my ideal view of this, Israel should be able to make the decisions of how it defends itself and its national self-existence," Ramaswamy told Axios. "And we provide a diplomatic Iron Dome for Israel to be able to carry that out. And that's it. No money."
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Oct 27, 2023 20:13
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Bel Shazar posted:If anything, SA is the last place you should be discussing preparation for a violent revolution. OPSEC is a thing. Jeffrey isn't the real owner of SA until he's been visited by the Secret Service
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Oct 27, 2023 20:14
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Digamma-F-Wau posted:huh, well then Naaa, that's business speak for "give me numbers so I can say that this is a you thing and not take any blame for the upcoming genocide"
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Oct 27, 2023 20:15
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Eric Cantonese posted:I forget if there was a rule in here about relitigating 2016, so I apologize in advance. It is a topic to be cautious about broaching, if it is relevant to a point your making (which perhaps it is here). When things devolve into the 478th debate of whether or not Bernie was cheated/would have beaten Trump/etc is when we have to change the subject.
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Oct 27, 2023 20:18
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Bel Shazar posted:If anything, SA is the last place you should be discussing preparation for a violent revolution. OPSEC is a thing. 100% agree. But studying Lenin, Mao and the others doesn’t translate directly to “now you are going to violently overthrow the state.” You learn a lot about strategy, organizing outside the mainstream of political institutions, and how to build a movement. You’ll never learn how to do better than the Democrats by being a Democrat/having your movement co-opted by them unless you fail at the attempt. One way to get to a place of effective organizational strategy is to look at past efforts; the co-opting of the Second International and the critique of that history by later thinkers is a great resource in this instance. Learning from history isn’t propaganda, isn’t inherently anti-(small d) democratic and in any other effort is considered a smart thing to do. If I was hired to work on a project and they decided they wouldn’t be using any methodology to guide the work, and would be inventing project management as a practice wholesale for that project; I would immediately bail, because that’s a silly way to go about something, ignoring a long corpus of writing and effort and lessons learned, and to what end? As for what this could look like in the future; I don’t want to recapitulate the Soviet Union, I want something that makes sense in America, and believing that you can learn from past efforts to change fundamental political structures is a valid, and I would say very smart, path to take if you believe that the current structures are limited in ways that make your goals impossible. I’m not married to the myths and internal propaganda about the American system, and I don’t see what’s so offensive about that; but it obviously is to some folks. That’s their business, though:
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Oct 27, 2023 20:27
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Rigel posted:It is a topic to be cautious about broaching, if it is relevant to a point your making (which perhaps it is here). When things devolve into the 478th debate of whether or not Bernie was cheated/would have beaten Trump/etc is when we have to change the subject. Thanks for the note.  The Democratic electorate is very different now than it ever used to be. I am worried about how little a lot of people who vote Democratic seem to have in common because it's pretty easy to get us angry at each other. My social media feed's been relatively civilized, but I've been regularly having to sit through very stereotypical suburban Dems that I know having over the top reactions to isolated people affiliated with BLM saying stupid things about supporting Hamas. The dissatisfaction with Biden's handling of what's going on in Israel definitely seems generational right now. Older Dem voters I know seems to love it. People my age and younger are a lot less enthusiastic about the scope of our support for Israel.
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Oct 27, 2023 20:27
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Main Paineframe posted:So go out there and convince other people to support those things you want. Main Paineframe posted:Until your personal wishlist of political essentials is overwhelmingly popular and high on the wishlists of much of the populace, you are going to have to settle for not getting everything you want. Main Paineframe posted:Which is your decision to make, but you don't get to blast people for prioritizing abortion and gay rights over Palestine while you're prioritizing Palestine over their rights. I don’t believe I blasted others for prioritizing abortion and gay rights. If I did, I apologize because that’s not my intention. All I can do is state why I am making the decision that I am. I’m not going to vote for someone who is pro-Israel, a transphobe, anti-choice and other issues.
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Oct 27, 2023 20:35
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selec posted:100% agree. But studying Lenin, Mao and the others doesn’t translate directly to “now you are going to violently overthrow the state.” Mao seemed pretty doubtful about the idea of ever achieving communism through peaceful means. I think Lenin was too. The enormous scope of change Communism seeks tends to foreclose the possibility of nonviolence, sadly. People who don't want the redistribution of wealth don't go down peacefully.
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Oct 27, 2023 20:35
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Eric Cantonese posted:Mao seemed pretty doubtful about the idea of ever achieving communism through peaceful means. I think Lenin was too. Yeah, a peaceful transition is possible, but for the greed of the dragons on the hoard. Getting rid of individual dragons doesn’t fix it though; you gotta make it so painful to maintain a horde that they finally give in and agree to just one yacht and one luxury vacation home. Peace is an option, if the ruling class chooses it over violence. The workers never get to choose what the conflict looks like at the beginning, but they have to respond in a way that makes the conflict meaningful and ties their goals to what they’re doing. No revolutionary movement has ever been completely successful at this, but by studying them you can decide what would work or wouldn’t work in your context. You can learn how to organize better unions, parapolitical structures, and how to act as a disciplined unified force from history, you can also learn exactly how far the ruling class will go to respond with violence to legal practices like organizing better unions and parapolitical structures. It’s all helpful, because a failure to plan is a plan to fail. There’s tons of good stuff to be learned by seeing what others did, why they did it, and what came of it. You don’t study these people to hero-worship them. You do it to learn. I just finished a biography of Smedley Butler recently (the excellent GANGSTERS OF CAPITALISM) not because I want to emulate a slave-driving tool of empire, but because is interesting history and you can learn from it.
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Oct 27, 2023 20:44
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theCalamity posted:All I can do is state why I am making the decision that I am. I’m not going to vote for someone who is pro-Israel, a transphobe, anti-choice and other issues. Wait has Biden openly been anti-choice/transphobic? I always figured that he was at worst, someone who probably had a mixed record on those topics in the past that, with becoming president, hasn't done anything to impede most of the rest of the party being pro-choice/pro-trans.
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Oct 27, 2023 20:49
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I'm not sure about anti-abortion, but Biden in the past used to trot out that old chestnut of personally being against it due to his Catholicism, but wanting it legally protected. I think Biden was one of the earliest of the mainstream Democrats to come around on supporting Trans people, but I might be wrong. Apparently, there's been doctored video of him to make it look like he made anti-trans remarks, though. https://news.yahoo.com/fact-check-video-altered-show-154524128.html
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Oct 27, 2023 20:54
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Digamma-F-Wau posted:Wait has Biden openly been anti-choice/transphobic? I always figured that he was at worst, someone who probably had a mixed record on those topics in the past that, with becoming president, hasn't done anything to impede most of the rest of the party being pro-choice/pro-trans. As far as I know, he isn’t either anti-choice or a transphobe, but right now he is loving supporting Israel as they genocide Palestinians. Probably should’ve used an “or” there
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Oct 27, 2023 20:55
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Honestly I'd kinda wish Biden would die of natural causes but I feel like Kamala's probably on a similar boat to him wrt Israel and might do worse against Trump/whatever republican they would trot out if Trump dies
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Oct 27, 2023 21:04
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Digamma-F-Wau posted:Honestly I'd kinda wish Biden would die of natural causes but I feel like Kamala's probably on a similar boat to him wrt Israel and might do worse against Trump/whatever republican they would trot out if Trump dies I am struck by how differently young people of all religions view the US-Israel relationship. Obama arguably suffered a lot by crossing paths with Netanyahu though, so I'm not sure if mainstream Dems stop being enthusiastically pro-Israel until Millennials and younger start taking up more public offices and party leadership ranks. I could be wrong, but it seems very much like a generational thing and Kamala is definitely not that far from Biden on that front. She reportedly has a very good relationship with AIPAC. https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-harris-biden-chooses-a-traditionally-pro-israel-dem-as-his-veep-candidate/
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Oct 27, 2023 21:10
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Discendo Vox posted:Yes, you have identified why trolling works and why the people doing this should be removed. I think the line should be fascism. Because dialectic thinking and apocalyptic thinking both have legitimate uses even if they are often misused and that the line you would draw preferences analytic / logical positivist framing of all discussion.
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Oct 27, 2023 21:20
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I think the line should be fascism. Conveniently, the source I have been citing for this is Sartre, talking about how participants in the nascent German fascist movement internally rationalize their beliefs! I am not seeking analytic or logical positivist reasoning, if I were I wouldn't be leaning on the need for claims to be falsifiable. I am looking for the mods to loving enforce their own loving rules, rather than endlessly rationalize not doing so while the people who know things or try to discuss specifics gradually get fed up and leave.
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Oct 27, 2023 21:27
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Discendo Vox posted:Conveniently, the source I have been citing for this is Sartre, talking about how participants in the nascent German fascist movement internally rationalize their beliefs! Sartre’s thinking has that uses Heidegger problem though that Tillich doesn’t have. And Tillich’s thinking benefits from integrating class analysis to the same question with a closer (direct) proximity to the events in Germany. I don’t think we are that far off each other.
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Oct 27, 2023 21:46
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Digamma-F-Wau posted:well it's not like Palestinians wouldn't be genocided if the republicans were in power. It's not "things are better for us and worse for Palestine vs things are worse for us and better for Palestine"; it's "things are better for us but Palestine is getting shat on vs things are worse for us and Palestine is getting just as shat on"; our comparative lack of suffering isn't being tied to Palestinian suffering. Let me simplify the point: if someone shot your family in front of you, and talked about how good it felt shooting your family, would you go on to endorse them (in...basically anything)? Even if the other guy was talking about how much he loves shooting families? That's how a lot of people feel right now, especially Arab Americans. There's a breaking point for Electoralism where the rationalization cannot overcome reality, and you desire some form of retribution, however small. For a lot of people, it's going to be that Biden cannot remain president.
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Oct 27, 2023 21:47
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I'm just on the side of less deaths and it loving sucks that there's gonna be a poo poo ton of deaths with both options this time around with none of the people who die under the "less deaths" option having a chance to still survive under the "more deaths" option (and that not supporting the "less but still deaths" option just increases the chances of the "more deaths" option)
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Oct 27, 2023 21:55
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Neurolimal posted:Let me simplify the point: if someone shot your family in front of you, and talked about how good it felt shooting your family, would you go on to endorse them (in...basically anything)? Even if the other guy was talking about how much he loves shooting families? This argument doesn't really make sense unless you're viewing things exclusively from the 'pulling levers' meme viewpoint of a president. It's absolutely fine to criticize Biden and be angry at him, but trying to paint it like the 'other guy' is only talking ignores the open and vocal support you see from both parties. You can't even point to someone like Trump as being uninvolved because he's actively been campaigning behind the scenes to get people who support these things into positions of power, even if it is entirely for his own personal benefit. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Oct 27, 2023 |
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Oct 27, 2023 21:56
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Neurolimal posted:Let me simplify the point: if someone shot your family in front of you, and talked about how good it felt shooting your family, would you go on to endorse them (in...basically anything)? Even if the other guy was talking about how much he loves shooting families? And so for a hosed sense of ideological purity and retribution you'll passively help throw even more people under the bus and make the political environment even more hostile to the Palestinian cause. I would still hold my nose and vote for the guy shooting only my family over the other guy who will still shoot my family and who promises to shoot additional families, yes. E: if the situation were swapped and both candidates were running on a platform to make being trans a crime and only one of them promised to hold Israel accountable for their genocide I would still turn out to vote for the one who would end the genocide. While also being very scared. Kagrenak fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Oct 27, 2023 |
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Oct 27, 2023 22:03
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Kagrenak posted:And so for a hosed sense of ideological purity and retribution you'll passively help throw even more people under the bus and make the political environment even more hostile to the Palestinian cause. That's not the choice being presented. You can either have "shoot your family and other families" or "doesn't shoot your family but does shoot other families".
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Oct 27, 2023 22:06
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ImpAtom posted:This argument doesn't really make sense unless you're viewing things exclusively from the 'pulling levels' meme viewpoint of a president. They aren't even asking for him to pull a "Stop War" lever. Many of these voters endured through Israel's 2021 attacks, comfortable with Biden at least paying lipservice to peace. The bar is subterranean, and Biden's picked up a drill to hunt it down. Not even "don't shoot my family", moreso "don't talk about how pleasurable you found shooting my family". No, Biden can't shift the tides in DC away from unflinching support for Israel, but he could/can call for a ceasefire, but he isn't. He could have opted to not send a fleet of carriers towards Israel to intimidate its neighbors away from demonstrating repercussions for their actions. It's a shocking demonstration that's disgusted not just Arab Americans domestically, but just about every middle-class group across the Middle East, who bought into the Rules Based International Order fluff. I honestly request anyone seriously expressing electoralism at them to at least have the courage to do it at their funerals. Find Justin Amash and tell him about the dire need to re-elect Biden.
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Oct 27, 2023 22:06
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