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Stanley Pain posted:So, um, school's out almost certainly unsourced hyperbole. it wouldn't surprise me if the academic year ended, but it'd be because administering education under the current circumstances would be impossible, not because every student is dead. also while israel sucks real bad equivocating the entire nation to nazis is bad. don't do that. edited for page snipe
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Oct 28, 2023 05:46
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I don't understand how Netanyahu has been strengthening Hamas for years, instead of working with Abbas for statehood, and telling Likud to do the same if they wanted to avoid establishing a Palestinian state.... yet no one is holding him accountable for any of this? How is no one calling him out? He's never wanted a 2-state solution at all, he's entirely just turned a blind eye to Hamas and then deliberately ignored Abbas. It's driving me crazy that I'm not seeing any of this really being talked about on news.
MadSparkle fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 05:55
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ungulateman posted:almost certainly unsourced hyperbole. it wouldn't surprise me if the academic year ended, but it'd be because administering education under the current circumstances would be impossible, not because every student is dead. If the shoe fits. I'm also not calling the entire nation that. Just anyone who supports genocide.
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Oct 28, 2023 06:07
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MadSparkle posted:I don't understand how Netanyahu has been strengthening Hamas for years, instead of working with Abbas for statehood, and telling Likud to do the same if they wanted to avoid establishing a Palestinian state.... yet no one is holding him accountable for an of this? How is no one calling him out? He's never wanted a 2-state solution at all, he's entirely just turned a blind eye to Hamas and then deliberately ignored Abbas. It's driving me crazy that I'm not seeing any of this really being talked about on news. Israeli polling post-October 7th shows a lot of anger against Netanyahu. Unfortunately, they show even more anger against Hamas and there's no consensus to do anything about Netanyahu until Gaza is sufficiently punished.
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Oct 28, 2023 06:07
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MadSparkle posted:I don't understand how Netanyahu has been strengthening Hamas for years, instead of working with Abbas for statehood, and telling Likud to do the same if they wanted to avoid establishing a Palestinian state.... yet no one is holding him accountable for an of this? How is no one calling him out? He's never wanted a 2-state solution at all, he's entirely just turned a blind eye to Hamas and then deliberately ignored Abbas. It's driving me crazy that I'm not seeing any of this really being talked about on news. It's because Israeli internal dissent is being actively suppressed.
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Oct 28, 2023 06:11
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ungulateman posted:almost certainly unsourced hyperbole. it wouldn't surprise me if the academic year ended, but it'd be because administering education under the current circumstances would be impossible, not because every student is dead. Rather, equate the state of Israel with Nazi Germany.
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Oct 28, 2023 06:16
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ungulateman posted:almost certainly unsourced hyperbole. it wouldn't surprise me if the academic year ended, but it'd be because administering education under the current circumstances would be impossible, not because every student is dead. Not every citizen living in Nazi Germany supported Hitler, just like not every Israeli supports Netanyahu. It's a fair comparison - at the end of the day, a state is what its actions are.
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Oct 28, 2023 06:30
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the holy poopacy posted:Israeli polling post-October 7th shows a lot of anger against Netanyahu. Unfortunately, they show even more anger against Hamas and there's no consensus to do anything about Netanyahu until Gaza is sufficiently punished. I can definitely see that, I guess I'm just still trying to wrap my head around how this guy with his corruption charges and obvious agenda and lazy arrogance has been allowed to stay around for as long as he has.
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Oct 28, 2023 06:43
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MadSparkle posted:I can definitely see that, I guess I'm just still trying to wrap my head around how this guy with his corruption charges and obvious agenda and lazy arrogance has been allowed to stay around for as long as he has. "I will keep you safe from the animals on the other side of that fence who want to hurt you."* It's a powerful message, and a huge chunk of the anger at him is not because he's hurting Palistinians, but because he failed to live up to that promise. *Obviously paraphrasing, but I think you'd be hard pressed to say it's a strawman, given the things he's actually said.
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Oct 28, 2023 06:51
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are the lawn chair people out watching this round or is it too spicy? https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world/middleeast/israelis-watch-bombs-drop-on-gaza-from-front-row-seats.html
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Oct 28, 2023 06:52
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KillHour posted:"I will keep you safe from the animals on the other side of that fence who want to hurt you."* Yeah, he's been under severe scrutiny for some time, and especially recently with all of this with a security breach. I think they know what's he's doing politically. But he's also just deliberately put them in a vulnerable position so that they have no choice but to be terrified and angry and to support him even if they don't want to. I don't really understand how he's not considered a kind of terrorist in his own way. Basically not giving a poo poo about his own people and instead having his own agenda. I don't think he cares about Israel at all, though he's willing to wield that name and an ideology for an accomplished end for his own ambition. MadSparkle fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 07:07
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From what I've seen around the last few weeks, there is absolutely incandescent anger at Netenyahu for what is seen as the most catastrophic gently caress-up in the history of Israel, but there is also a belief that there is an existential war for survival going on and not many people want to be out protesting against their government at a time like this. There seems to be pretty widespread expectation that once this war is over he's going to be due for a serious reckoning. The most cynical takes I've seen is that the land invasion has been delayed primarily or even exclusively because he knows this and is desperate to buy another day in office, though personally I think it's only one of a number of factors and IDF assessments that going in will get them far more bloodied than the Israeli public expects or will accept is the bigger block. He was already a motherfucker of the highest order before Black Saturday, if ever there was a time for the US to throw their weight into another country's internal politics and get a bastard ousted... Ms Adequate fucked around with this message at 07:28 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 07:26
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Ms Adequate posted:though personally I think it's only one of a number of factors and IDF assessments that going in will get them far more bloodied than the Israeli public expects or will accept is the bigger block. Speaking of: https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1718157737610104915 I feel like bundling up fifty tanks next to each other to take potshots on the far outskirts of the city you have sieged for 20 days...While dropping the largest number of bombs yet in one night...doesn't exactly convey incredible confidence. They also claim to have destroyed 150 'underground targets' in the span of 5 hours...which is probably bullshit, seeing as it's the IDF saying that.
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Oct 28, 2023 08:05
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MadSparkle posted:I don't understand how Netanyahu has been strengthening Hamas for years, instead of working with Abbas for statehood, and telling Likud to do the same if they wanted to avoid establishing a Palestinian state.... yet no one is holding him accountable for any of this? How is no one calling him out? He's never wanted a 2-state solution at all, he's entirely just turned a blind eye to Hamas and then deliberately ignored Abbas. It's driving me crazy that I'm not seeing any of this really being talked about on news. As I understand it, in addition to all the fear mongering (and provocation orchestration) that Netanyahu survives on, there's a serious flaw in Isreael's proportional voting system that makes the religious groups far more powerful as king makers than simply a supporter base for the right and basically he's promised and steadily delivered them everything just shy of turning Israel into a theocracy. There were very large protests against the government this year because of proposed alterations to the way justices were appointed which heavily favoured him escaping jail but also benefited the ultra orthodox in ways they had to pull back from once popular disgust was made known.
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Oct 28, 2023 08:14
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At 0.26 right before the cutaway you can see something suspiciously atgmy coming in hot on the tank column. (or it could just be a bird, you really have to stop and rewind a bit)
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Oct 28, 2023 08:15
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it is incredibly important to point out that this is not how to operate an armored brigade. y'all have been watching video of the ukraine war for nearly two years now and you know how this goes. this is overconfidence and underplanning. if this were near-peer instead of a turkey shoot they'd already be dead
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Oct 28, 2023 08:16
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Stanley Pain posted:So, um, school's out Quick Google says that Islamic University of Gaza (or, as IDF calls it, ""training institution for the development and production of weapons.") had almost 18.000 students in 2022. "All of our students are dead" is almost certainly a hyperbole. Of course it doesn't change the fact that Israel is a fascist state.
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Oct 28, 2023 08:16
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i say swears online posted:it is incredibly important to point out that this is not how to operate an armored brigade. y'all have been watching video of the ukraine war for nearly two years now and you know how this goes. this is overconfidence and underplanning. if this were near-peer instead of a turkey shoot they'd already be dead True. hamas doesn’t have javelins, artillery or any nice stuff to take on tanks from a distance. Maybe they’ll try with grenade dropping drones or something. But I guess that as long as they keep these tanks out of narrow streets/rubble, they’ll be fairly safe. Infantry is another story.
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Oct 28, 2023 08:59
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MadSparkle posted:I don't understand how Netanyahu has been strengthening Hamas for years, instead of working with Abbas for statehood, and telling Likud to do the same if they wanted to avoid establishing a Palestinian state.... yet no one is holding him accountable for any of this? How is no one calling him out? He's never wanted a 2-state solution at all, he's entirely just turned a blind eye to Hamas and then deliberately ignored Abbas. It's driving me crazy that I'm not seeing any of this really being talked about on news. Polls during a war and so far from an election in a rapidly developing situation don't mean poo poo but here's a poll from yesterday. National Union - 36 Likud 19 Yesh Atid 17 Israel Beitenu 8 Shas 8 Torah Judaism 7 Meretz 6 Hadash 5 National Judaism 5 Raam 5 Otzma Yehudit 4 https://m.maariv.co.il/news/politics/Article-1047872 So the major change is Likud completely collapsing and most of their votes moving to the National Union which isn't particularly less hawkish. They additionally had the following questions: Who is more suitable as PM? Benny Gantz 49% Bibi 28% Don't know 23% Do you believe the IDF should enact a ground invasion of Gaza immediately or is it better to wait with the decision? (this is horrible phrasing and a dumb question. There's no option for "we shouldn't invade") 49% wait 29% immediately 22% don't know kiminewt fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 09:01
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mrfart posted:True. hamas doesn’t have javelins, artillery or any nice stuff to take on tanks from a distance. Maybe they’ll try with grenade dropping drones or something. But I guess that as long as they keep these tanks out of narrow streets/rubble, they’ll be fairly safe. Infantry is another story. honestly the probably do have those things though. (or similar systems at least) i think these tanks are outside the fence, or otherwise out of LOS. punishedkissinger fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 09:04
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i say swears online posted:it is incredibly important to point out that this is not how to operate an armored brigade. y'all have been watching video of the ukraine war for nearly two years now and you know how this goes. this is overconfidence and underplanning. if this were near-peer instead of a turkey shoot they'd already be dead
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Oct 28, 2023 09:10
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The uncomfortable truth is that the majority of the Israeli population support this ethnic cleansing and the apartheid policies enacted by their govt for years. Israel is no better than Nazi Germany and I don’t give a poo poo if people find that offensive tbh, it’s true. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 28, 2023 11:18
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Jakabite posted:The uncomfortable truth is that the majority of the Israeli population support this ethnic cleansing and the apartheid policies enacted by their govt for years. Israel is no better than Nazi Germany and I don’t give a poo poo if people find that offensive tbh, it’s true. The scene this morning in Gaza - https://twitter.com/CarlEckett/status/1718186555062309109 I should probably spoiler the blood and gore, but I'm not going to because the world needs to loving see this, and I'll take any 24'er as punishment There's no loving excuse for this. ik edit:  unspoilered video of blood, gore, and dead bodies(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Somebody fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 11:42
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Israel is not defending themselves, and this attack was never really about October 7th. They have wanted to do this for awhile now and found the perfect opportunity. This isn’t even about revenge, the state of Israel just has an extremely racist and hateful view of Palestinians and wants to remove them outright.
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Oct 28, 2023 11:45
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It's obviously hard to get much information at the moment but there are ground forces currently engaged in combat in Gaza. It still seems to be relatively limited so far though. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67248454 quote:What appears to be happening is that Israeli forces are concentrating on the northern area of the Gaza Strip, in Beit Hanoun, and pushing down a bit further south from there. I said come in! posted:Not entirely sure what all this means or what the consequences are for israel should they ignore this. I said come in! posted:Israel is not defending themselves, and this attack was never really about October 7th. They have wanted to do this for awhile now and found the perfect opportunity. This isn’t even about revenge, the state of Israel just has an extremely racist and hateful view of Palestinians and wants to remove them outright.
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Oct 28, 2023 11:51
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e: wrong thread
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Oct 28, 2023 12:00
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Jakabite posted:The uncomfortable truth is that the majority of the Israeli population support this ethnic cleansing and the apartheid policies enacted by their govt for years. Israel is no better than Nazi Germany and I don’t give a poo poo if people find that offensive tbh, it’s true. It's hard not to look at what Israel is doing and not be reminded of Nazi Germany. The worst of it are the leaders who said never again, and made a big deal about WW2 history during the Ukraine war. Are all supporting Israel's "right" to genocide.
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Oct 28, 2023 12:06
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Irony Be My Shield posted:This article speculates that their plan will just be to slowly clear Gaza and its tunnel system one "slice" at a time, rather than invading every front at once. I do think that's possible - the operation is likely to continue to focus on Israel's complete air and artillery supremacy, with the troops just moving in to smoke out anyone who remains hiding in the wreckage (who will then be bombarded with artillery and air strikes once they make their presence known). I also wouldn't be shocked to see Israel use kamikaze drones to clear out buildings as much as possible before committing troops. Here's some nightmare fuel brought to the world by the Israeli MIC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7yIzY1BxuI
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Oct 28, 2023 12:08
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fuctifino posted:The scene this morning in Gaza - https://twitter.com/CarlEckett/status/1718186555062309109 Anyone who justifies this has something truly wrong with them. gently caress Israel, gently caress America for doing this. Somebody fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 12:29
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hadji murad posted:Anyone who justifies this has something truly wrong with them. gently caress Israel, gently caress America for doing this. I'm curious, and don't intend this as as much of a leading question as it will inevitably sound; is war ever justified in your view? If so, when?
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Oct 28, 2023 12:37
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Pvt. Parts posted:I'm curious, and don't intend this as as much of a leading question as it will inevitably sound; is war ever justified in your view? If so, when? The US Civil War was justified.
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Oct 28, 2023 12:40
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Pvt. Parts posted:I'm curious, and don't intend this as as much of a leading question as it will inevitably sound; is war ever justified in your view? If so, when? Im not commenting on war, Im commenting on an outright slaughter of innocents. I think your question is really crass and I hope I never look at this thread again.
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Oct 28, 2023 12:44
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Pvt. Parts posted:I'm curious, and don't intend this as as much of a leading question as it will inevitably sound; is war ever justified in your view? If so, when? This isn’t a war, it’s a genocide. Do keep up.
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Oct 28, 2023 12:45
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Pvt. Parts posted:I'm curious, and don't intend this as as much of a leading question as it will inevitably sound; is war ever justified in your view? If so, when? This isn't a war. The nearest comparison I can come up with is it's similar to the Warsaw Ghetto, except there's over 5x the number of people. It's a literal genocide against a trapped, contained and starved population - a Holocaust if you will.
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Oct 28, 2023 12:47
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 12:49
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Pvt. Parts posted:I'm curious, and don't intend this as as much of a leading question as it will inevitably sound; is war ever justified in your view? If so, when? When there is a dispute that cannot be resolved diplomatically, and the continued actions of one side would cause significant harm if the dispute is not resolved. In the case of Israel and their war on Palestinians, it is not at all justified. They have not gone through any thing that could be even remotely considered reasonable, and it’s clear as day the Israeli’s do not care to do this. All of the world leaders should be in support of military action against Israel, but we live in a reality that sucks poo poo and injustice is continually allowed to win.
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Oct 28, 2023 12:55
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I'm not sure I'd ever call war reasonable. There is no such thing.
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Oct 28, 2023 13:28
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mrfart posted:True. hamas doesn’t have javelins, artillery or any nice stuff to take on tanks from a distance. Maybe they’ll try with grenade dropping drones or something. But I guess that as long as they keep these tanks out of narrow streets/rubble, they’ll be fairly safe. Infantry is another story. Grenade-dropping drones aren't a hypothetical, Hamas had video of their drones blowing up listening posts and brewing up Merkavas.
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Oct 28, 2023 13:30
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MadSparkle posted:I don't understand how Netanyahu has been strengthening Hamas for years, instead of working with Abbas for statehood, and telling Likud to do the same if they wanted to avoid establishing a Palestinian state.... yet no one is holding him accountable for any of this? How is no one calling him out? He's never wanted a 2-state solution at all, he's entirely just turned a blind eye to Hamas and then deliberately ignored Abbas. It's driving me crazy that I'm not seeing any of this really being talked about on news. Because it's not just Bibi. Every Israeli faction from the center right and on prefers Gaza to be the only real power in the occupied territories. The old AP and PLO, corrupt and ineffective as they were, had some varnish of 'legitimacy' that made them acceptable by parts of the west. That meant annoying soft-hearted presidents from France and the US would bug Israel to try and make nice. "Hey, I'm making this summit, how about you sit with the polite pretend-marxist leader, maybe decide together which vilalges get water? I'll give you 15% more missiles if you do!" But the mainstream position is that they shouldn't -have- to negotiate. It's all theirs, palestinians are not a people and maybe not even people in general. And nobody anywhere is going to ask you to sit down and talk with Hamas, right? So they focused on wrecking the 'moderates' from the mid-90s onward. At many points, whenever a Hamas suicide bomber exploded in a cafe, the IDF would bomb that Palestinian Authority offices instead of Hamas camps, because "it's you fault, you can't control your people!". Well, they got what they wanted. Once Hamas was th only game in town, they pulled out of Gaza, because it wasn't worth the headache of having a patrol ambushed every month of so and then having to negotiate prisoner exchange (And said exchanges got Hamas a lot of good PR inside the strip for freeing arrested civvies) and focused on quietly digesting the west Bank, which is the best land they can get right now. Once that was done, they could ignore or empty Gaza at their leisure. They'll likely throw Netanyahu (gently) under the bus after things stabilize; you don't want to over-punish your butchers and crooks, because you need the next guy to not waffle when it's his turn on the killing floor. My main concern now is that he will try to expand the conflict into Lebanon and Syria (or Egypt if he'd -really- dumb and desperate) thinking they won't oust him while things are hot.
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Oct 28, 2023 13:34
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FlamingLiberal posted:Per the Washington Post, here is a snippet of the reporting of what Hamas was offering in exchange to free the hostages. Which if correct is extremely generous. I get the impression that a ceasefire is now not going to happen, because a lot of outlets are reporting that Israeli bombs and possible artillery have increased in Gaza significantly in the last few hours.
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Oct 28, 2023 13:36
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