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Kalit posted:…so you know how politicians lie all of the time? Trump lies even more. I know, it’s hard to believe, but it’s true! So, yea, Trump claimed he was going to do it. But Biden is the one who did it and stuck by it after everyone was telling him to redeploy forces. Trump is the one who initiated the drawdown and oversaw the reduction in troops from 13,000 to 2,500 at the time he left office. Meanwhile the Taliban was gaining power throughout the country and used the low number of troops as an opportunity to mount a successful offensive campaign in May 2021, regaining control of the country. If Biden didn’t withdraw the remaining 2500 troops, he would have had to deploy additional soldiers back to Afghanistan for support—a move that would have been politically unpalatable. Biden didn’t have a choice in the withdrawal, Trump forced his hand.
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Oct 28, 2023 14:59
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AlternateNu posted:George Lopez was in that movie? I knew he was super catholic, but I didn't think he was that far right. I'm pretty sure that while the movie is a political comedy, the subject matter has absolutely nothing to do with the actors' politics.
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Oct 28, 2023 15:00
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AlternateNu posted:George Lopez was in that movie? I knew he was super catholic, but I didn't think he was that far right. Saw it over a decade ago around when it came out, as I remember it's not a right wing movie, it's got Rally to Restore Sanity politics. "Yes all our politicians are greedy cowards and liars haha, but choosing between them is still a sacred responsibility we should take seriously."
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Oct 28, 2023 15:13
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The Top G posted:Trump is the one who initiated the drawdown and oversaw the reduction in troops from 13,000 to 2,500 at the time he left office. Meanwhile the Taliban was gaining power throughout the country and used the low number of troops as an opportunity to mount a successful offensive campaign in May 2021, regaining control of the country. If Biden didn’t withdraw the remaining 2500 troops, he would have had to deploy additional soldiers back to Afghanistan for support—a move that would have been politically unpalatable. …I don’t understand your point? Biden said he was going to end the war. He didn’t deploy more troops. He didn’t redeploy troops when everything was collapsing (due to the incompetence of Trump’s plan). He actually ended the war. Why are you avoiding giving credit to Biden for his actions?
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Oct 28, 2023 15:13
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theCalamity posted:The Dems are capable of stopping fascism. Right now, we have Biden siding fully with a fascist regime in Israel. Many democrats want to give the police more money. We’ve seen Pelosi campaign for an anti-choice democrat over a progressive. Eric Adams has his police robot and is now wanting to give immigrants a one way ticket out of NYC. How many liberal cities have swept up homeless camps? I’m sorry but they aren’t going to stop fascism. I've already addressed the massive change in US posture regarding Israel by the Biden administration with both the public calls for restraint and the ongoing diplomatic pressure he's bringing to bear. That's what will lead to a substantive shift in US policy as it relates to Israel and Palestine. But there is a lot of political inertia at play with American foreign policy that is intentionally built in because a huge part of effective diplomacy is consistency. There's a reason why Trump couldn't just pull the US out of NATO and declare that the EU are no longer our allies and that we've now aligned with the authoritarians regimes he wrote love letters to. Public sentiment would need to shift to the point where support for Israel became a political liability. We're not there yet. But with Biden warning Israel not to disregard the rules of war and the safety of civilians and the continuous coverage of devastating effects of the Israeli campaign that's going to change. Having actually been aware of and firmly against Israel's treatment of Palestinians since the loving 80s the fact that Israel is getting any push back from an American administration is a massive shift as is the way that at least some of the media is covering the conflict. MSNBC in particular has been providing sympathetic coverage of the Palestinians after having to reverse course on canceling Medhi Hassan do to push back from their viewers. And yes they could get rid of the filibuster with a simple majority vote if they had support of the majority of Senators, but there was never a point where they had the majority ready to do so because Manchin and Sinema. They might have the votes now but it would be pointless nay dangerous to do so now that the MAGAts control the house. Because A nothing good is passing out of the house and B the filibuster prevents the Problem creator err I mean Problem Solvers can't bipartisan away Social Security. Oh and just because you only recently became aware of Israel's awfulness doesn't mean that others of us haven't been aware for decades. And you're not exactly loving helping by refusing to support the party that's saying "Isreal has the right to defend itself but should endeavor to avoid killing civilians" over the one saying "Palestinians are all animals who should be exterminated" because it is a loving distinction with a massive loving difference.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:11
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How do you make something like supporting a genocide a “political liability” other than withholding your votes and money and time? That’s the danger of an issue becoming a liability. So if people (in the abstract) don’t vote for you, that’s the system working as intended. But it seems when we are confronted with the specific (a person who has made that choice) the idea that something is a political liability isn’t allowed to enter into the calculus? The only power I’ve really got is my vote. The political system is great at co-opting and ultimately defeating efforts that aren’t able to provide sufficient political pain in exchange for not getting what they want. Not voting seems like the only leverage an individual actor in the system can bring to bear.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:17
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That's fine, but the bare metal of applying that specific leverage in this case is more votes for GOP candidates. Maybe you live in an area where that doesn't make a lick of a difference (I lived in Utah for 16 or so years, I get it), in which case you get the luxury of a protest vote. If you live somewhere where it's close, then a protest vote or a non-vote directly supports getting GOP candidates elected. That's pretty much it, I dunno. Any argument beyond this is pretty arbitrary and academic, in my view.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:24
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I don't think that politely asking the Israelis to carry out their genocide in a somewhat more restrained manner counts as a "massive change in posture," particularly when Biden is openly casting doubt on the number of Palestinian dead and you have Democratic senators saying that the Palestinians wouldn't even benefit from a cease fire: https://twitter.com/ballesteros_312/status/1718019197366669344 The Palestinians are better off if the IDF continues to indiscriminately bomb them is quite the take, but it's one that at least some elected Democrats seem to believe.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:25
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honest question to the vbnmw proponents. is there any action both parties can take that will get you to write both off? can the lesser evil become too evil in itself to even support? don't point to current levels, as that has been made clear it aint there yet for you but hypothetically
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Oct 28, 2023 16:27
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To me the most aggravating thing is this constant idea from Dem leadership that they are totally powerless on most issues and instead throw back the responsibility onto voters. Rather than actually lead, they would rather make every election the 'most important ever' and then proceed to just repeat the cycle every two years. We've seen this with the Clarence Thomas reporting, where it's blatantly obvious that Thomas is corrupt, but then you have comments from Dem leadership essentially saying 'someone should do something about this'. It often comes off as gaslighting. There's been a similar trend in how over the last few decades, leaders have pushed the idea that individuals need to make the most change regarding climate change, when those most responsible and who have the most power to fix climate change are politicians and major corporations. But instead they avoid most ire by just throwing the responsibility back on the average person.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:28
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World Famous W posted:honest question to the vbnmw proponents. is there any action both parties can take that will get you to write both off? can the lesser evil become too evil in itself to even support? No. I don't think voting gives you cooties, as long as one of the major parties is better than the other I will keep voting for that one.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:31
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selec posted:How do you make something like supporting a genocide a “political liability” other than withholding your votes and money and time? That’s the danger of an issue becoming a liability. So if people (in the abstract) don’t vote for you, that’s the system working as intended. But it seems when we are confronted with the specific (a person who has made that choice) the idea that something is a political liability isn’t allowed to enter into the calculus? The issue is that not voting makes the problem worse.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:32
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mutata posted:That's fine, but the bare metal of applying that specific leverage in this case is more votes for GOP candidates. Maybe you live in an area where that doesn't make a lick of a difference (I lived in Utah for 16 or so years, I get it), in which case you get the luxury of a protest vote. If you live somewhere where it's close, then a protest vote or a non-vote directly supports getting GOP candidates elected. See I’d say if you’re witnessing an ongoing genocide, that vote isn’t a luxury, it’s an essential. It’s the moment when you’re doing the thing they’re gonna ask about during the “what did you do when this was happening?” talk with your grandkids, right now. I’d at least like to say I didn’t waste my largely-symbolic participation on supporting a genocide. History is academic, but what people did in the run-up to and during the Holocaust wasn’t, was it? Because to me , this feels like an analogous situation. We don’t look down on the people raising the alarm early now, despite how they were portrayed in the press and within polite society back then, do we? All the social pressures they were under, all the stories of being told not to rock the boat too much because they sounded hysterical, all that feels really familiar right now.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:34
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 16:35
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My dude, I ain't having that talk with my or anyone's grandkids at all ever. I can't tell the future and I'm doing my best. Edit: Politics, unfortunately, isn't a single-issue thing. If I was going to be a single issue voter, I would vote exclusively based on climate change views and policies, anyway (speaking of "awkward things your grandkids are gonna ask you about"). mutata fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 16:37
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selec posted:How do you make something like supporting a genocide a “political liability” other than withholding your votes and money and time? That’s the danger of an issue becoming a liability. So if people (in the abstract) don’t vote for you, that’s the system working as intended. But it seems when we are confronted with the specific (a person who has made that choice) the idea that something is a political liability isn’t allowed to enter into the calculus? You don’t use your leverage to shoot yourself in your own dick. In general elections against fascists you don’t help let the fascist candidate win. You use your limited leverage to get the squishy Democrats to put better people into those elections against fascists. It’s hard work, and it usually doesn’t work but sometimes it does and if everyone did it it would make a huge difference over time. And in the process less actual goddamn fascists have power over you and the rest of us. You can always intellectualize yourself into thinking inaction is a moral choice but don’t be surprised if it comes across to everyone else who doesn’t want to be ruled over by fascists as nothing better than petulance. Fake edit: I realize I’m repeating myself. I’m not going to change your mind on this and you’re not going to convince me that your approach is valid or helpful. So I’m going to let it go, at least for a while. There are other things to talk about in usce and we are sucking the oxygen out of the room.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:39
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mutata posted:My dude, I ain't having that talk with anyone's grandkids at all ever. I can't tell the future and I'm doing my best. I’d read some more history then. It lends a lot of clarity. People were running around with their heads on fire trying to get the west to care about the run up to and then the process of genocide before, within living memory. It’s important to understand what happened before to stop making similar mistakes. There’s a cliché quote about being doomed to repeat that is so tiresome it seems meaningless until you’re in the middle of seeing it repeat. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 28, 2023 16:40
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World Famous W posted:honest question to the vbnmw proponents. is there any action both parties can take that will get you to write both off? can the lesser evil become too evil in itself to even support? It's abortion rights. I have a daughter. After she was born, I took a job in New York and moved the family up here, after living in the South for most of my life. As long as one party is pro-choice and the other is virulently otherwise, I'm voting straight ticket for the blue team.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:40
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selec posted:See I’d say if you’re witnessing an ongoing genocide, that vote isn’t a luxury, it’s an essential. It’s the moment when you’re doing the thing they’re gonna ask about during the “what did you do when this was happening?” talk with your grandkids, right now. I’d at least like to say I didn’t waste my largely-symbolic participation on supporting a genocide. This is a really weird, elaborate way to talk about a simple action that takes most people probably less than an hour to do. Especially when it seems like you're pretending that voting for someone who supports Israel is more supportive of a genocide than most other things that everyone does. For a quick example, supporting Boeing by flying in their airplanes.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:43
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mannerup posted:I would like to think somebody with this viewpoint would at least have some moral principles they would not accept from a political party they would vote for, you can't be so malleable that you'll accept any compromise as long as its slightly better than what the alternative party is offering. That wouldn't figure in to how I voted anyway because I think Democrats are good, but since voting doesn't give you cooties there's no actual downside to voting for whoever is better, even if it's just a little better.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:43
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James Garfield posted:No. I don't think voting gives you cooties, as long as one of the major parties is better than the other I will keep voting for that one. Xalidur posted:It's abortion rights. I have a daughter. After she was born, I took a job in New York and moved the family up here, after living in the South for most of my life. As long as one party is pro-choice and the other is virulently otherwise, I'm voting straight ticket for the blue team. World Famous W fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 16:44
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selec posted:I’d read some more history then. It lends a lot of clarity. People were running around with their heads on fire trying to get the west to care about the run up to and then the process of genocide before, within living memory. It’s important to understand what happened before to stop making similar mistakes. There’s a cliché quote about being doomed to repeat that is so tiresome it seems meaningless until you’re in the middle of seeing it repeat. Suddenly I don't know history and must hear a sermon, lol.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:44
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FlamingLiberal posted:
That’s a huge problem. But that doesn’t validate individual voters throwing up their hands and rolling coal in symbolic protest.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:45
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Kalit posted:This is a really weird, elaborate way to talk about a simple action that takes most people probably less than an hour to do. A simple action freighted with support for a genocide is still supporting a genocide. I also can’t decide what Boeing does or who it’s allowed to sell to. Ostensibly my vote could in theory empower a government to restrain them, but that’s not actually realistic—supporting arms dealers is a bipartisan consensus. The belief that sometimes you gotta be the adult in the room and suck it up and support genocide is making the easy choice, not the hard one. The hard one is to take the principled stance that genocide never gets supported, sorry if that means we suffer here too, but some crimes are too great to lend your name to for me. I’m not going to shame people for making a different hard decision when put in this impossible position, but it seems a lot of people are willing to suck it up and decide “Maybe again.”
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Oct 28, 2023 16:49
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I don't think voting for Biden in 2024 is supporting genocide. I might even say it's opposing genocide given his opponent. James Garfield fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 16:52
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selec posted:
Standing aside and letting Hitler win an election is a not valid way of raising the alarm against the Holocaust. It’s not a heroic decision of deep principle that history will applaud. I know I said I’d stop but it’s hard to let that one pass. predicto fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 16:52
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selec posted:A simple action freighted with support for a genocide is still supporting a genocide. I also can’t decide what Boeing does or who it’s allowed to sell to. Ostensibly my vote could in theory empower a government to restrain them, but that’s not actually realistic—supporting arms dealers is a bipartisan consensus. Huh? Trying to organize a boycott and not supporting Boeing/etc definitely has a better chance of making a difference than not voting for Democrat/Republican would. You not voting will still 100% result in a pro-Israel president. Affecting Boeing profits would make them re-evaluate their positions. While still unlikely, it's more of a chance than not voting for D/R magically resulting in a president who would stand up against Israel.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:54
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Shooting Blanks posted:I'm pretty sure that while the movie is a political comedy, the subject matter has absolutely nothing to do with the actors' politics. Check out his placement on the movie poster.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:55
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predicto posted:Standing aside and letting Hitler win an election is a not valid way of raising the alarm against the Holocaust. I’m speaking specifically to the actions of Jewish people and leftists trying to get any foreign powers to care about what was being done by the Nazis. Later on, to cover their asses, people who felt shame about their actions during this period invented a term for people they should’ve listened to but didn’t, “premature anti fascist,” a term so freighted with contradiction and self-loathing I used to find it difficult to believe anybody used it unironically. I will say I have no problem understanding how it was used and the psychological necessity it was filling nowadays.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:56
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Kalit posted:Huh? Trying to organize a boycott and not supporting Boeing/etc definitely has a better chance of making a difference than not voting for Democrat/Republican would. You not voting will still 100% result in a pro-Israel president. Affecting Boeing profits would make them re-evaluate their positions. While still unlikely, it's more of a chance than not voting for D/R magically resulting in a president who would stand up against Israel. You could lose a job in the majority of US states for this if you were a government employee, and made it clear you were trying to target Israel with a boycott, divestment or sanction.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:58
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Skex posted:
I don’t see how voting for people who support Israel as they genocide Palestinians helps the Palestinians. You’re gonna have to explain that to me.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:58
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selec posted:You could lose a job in the majority of US states for this if you were a government employee, and made it clear you were trying to target Israel with a boycott, divestment or sanction. That doesn't address my point. And I was using an example of Boeing, not Israel/an Israeli company. Kalit fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 16:59
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predicto posted:Standing aside and letting Hitler win an election is a not valid way of raising the alarm against the Holocaust. It’s not a heroic decision of deep principle that history will applaud. Both parties support this genocide though. Biden proudly claims to be a Zionist.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:00
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Kalit posted:That doesn't address my point. And I was talking about Boeing, not Israel. Do you think you’d be able to skate by by saying your protest has nothing to do with Israel? Do you think a meaningful protest would be possible doing that? I don’t think it would, and I think it’s absurd to say we should chase politics out of voting, and restrict it to protesting private actors.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:01
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James Garfield posted:That wouldn't figure in to how I voted anyway because I think Democrats are good, but since voting doesn't give you cooties there's no actual downside to voting for whoever is better, even if it's just a little better. There’s no line you’d draw where if both parties crossed it, you wouldn’t vote for them?
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Oct 28, 2023 17:04
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selec posted:Do you think you’d be able to skate by by saying your protest has nothing to do with Israel? Do you think a meaningful protest would be possible doing that? I don’t think it would, and I think it’s absurd to say we should chase politics out of voting, and restrict it to protesting private actors. You're not addressing my point. Which, in case you forgot, is voting for someone who supports Israel is not anymore supportive of a genocide than purchasing products/goods/services from a company who is helping further said genocide.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:04
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selec posted:I’m speaking specifically to the actions of Jewish people and leftists trying to get any foreign powers to care about what was being done by the Nazis. Later on, to cover their asses, people who felt shame about their actions during this period invented a term for people they should’ve listened to but didn’t, “premature anti fascist,” a term so freighted with contradiction and self-loathing I used to find it difficult to believe anybody used it unironically. I will say I have no problem understanding how it was used and the psychological necessity it was filling nowadays. You forgot to tell us how any of that means it’s ok not to actively vote against candidate Hitler when you can vote in an election in which Hitler is trying to get elected. Because that’s what we are talking about, I could start analyzing Wittgenstein or something to support my point but it would be a distraction (or a way for me to psychologically avoid coming to grips with the real issue)
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Oct 28, 2023 17:05
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theCalamity posted:There’s no line you’d draw where if both parties crossed it, you wouldn’t vote for them?
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Oct 28, 2023 17:05
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World Famous W posted:i think giving your endorsement for policies and people is a little more than 'avoiding cooties' but thank youfor answering still You can vote enthusiastically, you can vote reluctantly, and you can vote spitefully. No matter why you're doing it, your secret ballot by it's nature is not an endorsement.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:06
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World Famous W posted:honest question to the vbnmw proponents. is there any action both parties can take that will get you to write both off? can the lesser evil become too evil in itself to even support? I don't think my vote is the most moral thing in the universe, so probably not. Although, I never voted for Obama, so I might not fit into your "vbnmw proponents" category.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:06
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