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Hamas is bad and would love to genocide all of Israel if they could. Israel is also bad and actually have the tools to genocide and are using them, as we're seeing Two bad sides, where thousands of innocent civilians get caught inbetween them. It's such a miserable situation
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Oct 28, 2023 16:23
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Stringent posted:Honest question then, is it the fact you object to or just the pace? Are you asking if I object to Israel committing a genocide against Palestinians simply because of the pace? If so, I object to it regardless of the pace (as I hope everyone ITT does). I have been objected to Israel's policies since I learned about it as a young adult. If that's not what you were asking, can you please expand on your question?
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Oct 28, 2023 16:23
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Hamas has successfully captured soldiers in the past and used them to negotiate the release of Palestinians. Taking civilians as hostages instead (and the vast majority of the ~200 Hamas is currently holding are civilians) is an inexcusable war crime and the only reason it didn't initially get more focus is because Hamas committed so many other heinous crimes during its rampage in southern Israel. I hope Israel releases the thousands of Palestinian hostages they have held in their prison without charges for years.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:26
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I don't know the best method to run a liberation campaign when peaceful protest fails. But I do know that brutalising every civilian you can get your hands on is, in addition to being absolutely unjustifiable from a moral perspective, a loving terrible strategy that will result in the obliteration of your organisation, the needless deaths of a large portion of the people you claim to represent and your cause being possibly irreparably damaged. Hopefully everyone else in this thread will also know that once this horrific campaign is finished.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:33
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mannerup posted:the "it" in this sentence being committing atrocities against hundreds of civilians, including people at a music festival, indiscriminately slaughtering people as well as taking children, foreign workers and the elderly as hostages Terrorism has historically been used by resistance groups around the world, and it is effective, yes. My point remains, focus on Gaza had dwindled in the last few years of the occupation. 10/7 drew the world's attention right back to it.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:38
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 16:43
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mannerup posted:as long as you accept that its completely morally indefensible behavior they are engaging in for the purpose of gaining political support and sympathy for their cause, then fine. don't exactly think it's a great tactic to go slaughter a bunch of women and children when you fall out of the news cycle. You've spent an incredible amount of time in this thread saying over and over again, red faced, that Hamas is evil, and indefensible while Israel continues a campaign that is more bloody, genocidal, and far more evil, so much so that it's on a completely different scale. Instead of continuing to argue on the morality of October 7th, of which the details continue to be murky, maybe focus on the active ethnic cleansing going on, right now, in broad daylight?
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Oct 28, 2023 16:51
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It just feels lovely to me to morality police the Palestinians when their oppressors treat them as not human beings and want to kill them all. No matter what they do this will not change. They are fighting for their very survival and its Israel who put them in that situation, and the entire world ignores it. Even before hamas, israel was doing this to the Palestinians. Hamas did not make Israel decide to suddenly commit to genocide, this has been going on long before that.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:52
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Noise Complaint posted:You've spent an incredible amount of time in this thread saying over and over again, red faced, that Hamas is evil, and indefensible while Israel continues a campaign that is more bloody, genocidal, and worse, so much so that it's on a completely different scale.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:52
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mannerup posted:as long as you accept that its completely morally indefensible behavior they are engaging in for the purpose of gaining political support and sympathy for their cause, then fine. don't exactly think it's a great tactic to go slaughter a bunch of women and children when you fall out of the news cycle. You seem to be eliding the slow and continuous oppression of the Israeli occupation, with untold thousands dying as their lives are snuffed out by an apartheid settler regime backed by long guns that have continued to rape, beat, and kill women and children for years with no considerable opposition. Hamas is the only reason that Israel settlers aren't personally oppressing Palestinians in Gaza right now. I'm not a Hamas supporter, but what other options are there against the slow and growing encroachment? A peaceful March for freedom in 2018 ended up with a few thousand Palestinian youths being gunned down.
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Oct 28, 2023 16:56
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 16:56
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Baron Porkface posted:A ceasefire keeps the slaves in Hamas captivity and rewards Hamas for having taken hostages. So what? That's a sacrifice Israel has to make if they're at all concerned about saving the lives of hostages. Regardless of the ethics of Hamas taking hostages in the first place, indiscriminately carpet-bombing the region where they're probably being kept isn't likely to facilitate live recovery. Whether or not Hamas was right to take hostages, the question right now is whether Israel wants to get those hostages back alive or is content just martyring them. If they want to get the hostages back, then they need to either negotiate a deal for their release, or identify where the hostages are being kept and send in special forces raids on foot to recapture them with minimal collateral damage. No matter how much they say "we don't negotiate with terrorists" and "we don't want to reward hostage-taking", that doesn't change the fact that carpet-bombing the prison is more likely to kill the hostages than save them. And at this point, it's starting to look like Israel is just fine with the hostages dying, and figures that as long as they die in Gaza there won't be too many questions about exactly how they died - even if the cause was Israeli bullets or bombs. Reports have already started to emerge that they were rather careless with collateral damage and the lives of hostages while forcing the Hamas fighters out of Israeli territory, and it doesn't seem to be having much of a political impact. If they could manage that on Israeli soil, then there's no reason to think that doing the same in Gaza will backfire politically.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:00
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mannerup posted:when people stop trying to morally justify the actions of Hamas in this thread, I will. otherwise I will continue to keep doing it even if it hurts your feelings making you mad enough to post about posting Maybe be more specific when talking about people being depraved apologists. Wouldn't want it to seem like you're just backhandedly tarring the other side of the debate as a throwaway generalisation.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:05
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mannerup posted:when people stop trying to morally justify the actions of Hamas in this thread, I will. otherwise I will continue to keep doing it even if it hurts your feelings making you mad enough to post about posting I don't think the actions of Hamas need to be justified, they are the direct result of 80 years of systematic fascism directed at them by the Zionist state and its citizens. Israel created the conditions under which it occurred. I think it's disingenuous to try to hold it to some kind of ethical standard. Would you apply this same kind of hand wringing to the Warsaw Uprising? quote:I've explicitly been calling for a ceasefire because I don't think more civilians should die, because I am not some depraved individual who thinks the atrocities my side commits are Cool and Good while the atrocities committed by the other side are Bad and Wrong. I would never treat an active ethnic cleansing as lightly as this, and the implication you're making is gross here.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:07
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 17:09
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But do you think the occupation is an example of ongoing atrocities? Because it's hard to tell from your posts.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:12
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What material difference does it make if one of us dipshit armchair generals does or doesn't approve of Hamas' tactics?
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Oct 28, 2023 17:15
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mannerup posted:for the fourth time in this thread, I think committing atrocities against civilians is wrong as a categorical imperative; there is no situation where it is morally justifiable. Zero. Therefore what? What is that axiom to be practiced? Palestine shouldn’t be free until Hamas is gone? The state of Israel should be dissolved? Value judgements in a vacuum are useless.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:16
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Gumball Gumption posted:What material difference does it make if one of us dipshit armchair generals does or doesn't approve of Hamas' tactics? there is no criticism of Israel mild enough that the Zionists will find it acceptable or reasonable. best course of action is to ignore their complaints entirely imo.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:16
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Noise Complaint posted:You've spent an incredible amount of time in this thread saying over and over again, red faced, that Hamas is evil, and indefensible while Israel continues a campaign that is more bloody, genocidal, and far more evil, so much so that it's on a completely different scale. People are capable of calling out both sides. Hamas is an organisation and is not the Palestinian civilian population. People are not siding with Israel when they say that Hamas is disgusting quote:I don't think the actions of Hamas need to be justified, they are the direct result of 80 years of systematic fascism directed at them by the Zionist state and its citizens. Israel created the conditions under which it occurred. I think it's disingenuous to try to hold it to some kind of ethical standard. Would you apply this same kind of hand wringing to the Warsaw Uprising? I don't get what you're saying. As long as they have been wronged at some point they have a right to kill civilians? Neither side has a "right" to kill civilians, that's the whole point. Israel needs to stop slaughtering civilians and so does Hamas
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Oct 28, 2023 17:17
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 17:19
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Collapsing Farts posted:People are capable of calling out both sides. Hamas is an organisation and is not the Palestinian civilian population. People are not siding with Israel when they say that Hamas is disgusting Hamas didn't form in a vacuum. From the Nakba in 1948 until the current events, Zionism has been a colonial project intent on dehumanizing, displacing, and eventually exterminating the Palestinians. I think calling out "both sides" right now is ignoring the forest for the trees. If that's not clear after seeing Israel's actions last night, nevermind the bombing campaign over the last few weeks, I don't know what else will convince you that it's two completely different scales of "wrong."
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Oct 28, 2023 17:24
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mannerup posted:not committing atrocities against civilians, how is that a hard concept to understand? Cool, let's game this out. What is your mechanism for holding nation states accountable for atrocities against civilians? Let's start with Israel and work our way out, ok?
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Oct 28, 2023 17:26
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mannerup posted:not committing atrocities against civilians, how is that a hard concept to understand? Again, what do you think should happen in this specific case? The atrocities have happened and are ongoing so how do you think your categorical imperative should be enforced? What should happen to Hamas and Israel for their crimes against civilians, both to punish the transgressions and prevent future ones? Because right now you’re basically just smugly shitposting “war is bad” instead of engaging.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:26
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I think we all know that if Hamas instead was a liberal or socialist organization that never hurt civilians, as soon as they did any kind of armed resistance they would be called antisemitic terrorists anyways. It loses all meaning when terrorist/freedom fighter is based on who the west supports at the time. If we rightly can call Hamas terrorists, we can not at the same time describe Israel as a state just "defending itself" against thousands of dead children, toddlers and infants.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:33
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 17:44
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Israel just openly targeting the areas they told civilians to flee to. https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1718015626231398817/photo/1
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Oct 28, 2023 17:45
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mannerup posted:as long as you accept that its completely morally indefensible behavior they are engaging in for the purpose of gaining political support and sympathy for their cause, then fine. don't exactly think it's a great tactic to go slaughter a bunch of women and children when you fall out of the news cycle. Hamas' only recruiting tool is Israel's genocidal policies towards Palestinians. They are Israel's creation, and any condemnation of them must begin and end with a greater condemnation of Israel. Provided they do not completely cleanse Gaza's Palestinian population, what do you think the children who are made orphan, or homeless, or disabled today will do when they are in their 20s or 30s? What do you think the current militants of Hamas lived through as children? The only party that has the option to pursue peace is Israel.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:53
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mannerup posted:you first if you want to play some dumb first principles game in a slow mode thread Sure, the US should discontinue any and all military aid to Israel immediately.
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Oct 28, 2023 17:59
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mannerup posted:not committing atrocities against civilians, how is that a hard concept to understand? You are a dumbass but let’s put this a bit more succinctly. Palestine is a concentration camp. Palestinians, including Hamas, are fighting to free themselves from a concentration camp. Palestinians are facing genocide and ethnic cleansing if they do nothing. They have tried peaceful means of resistance. Hamas is open to extremely reasonable terms for peace. Palestine is essentially out of options. They are co-signed to death if they do nothing. They have the right to resistance by any means necessary. With that said, the evidence is that the October 7th attacks were primarily of military personnel. We have limited information on the number of civilians killed and by whom. There are hand witnesses who claim Israel targeted civilians in line with the Hannibal directive. Many of the names released by Israel are military personnel to say nothing of the innocence of settlers. While some civilians died, which is a tragedy, they appear to have been predominantly within crossfire. This is unlike Israel who have directly targeted thousands of civilians as part of an explicit terrorist campaign against civilians. There is only one terrorist group in this conflict. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 28, 2023 18:04
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mannerup posted:ideally perpetrators of the war crimes should be tried in The Hague in accordance with international humanitarian norms, but since I know that is not going to be a satisfactory answer the IDF and Hamas should instead focus their efforts solely targeting the perpetrators of the atrocities instead of collectively punishing the civilian populations and committing human rights violations. at this point, since that is also not a practical solution, a ceasefire is the only sure way in the immediate term to prevent further civilian deaths from occuring None of this is likely to happen. It hasn't happened in ~80 years of Israeli occupation. Generations of Palestinians have grown up and Israel has not seen any of these neat consequences of international law. How many more generations of folks living in the world's largest concentration camp would you deem is acceptable before they lash out?
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Oct 28, 2023 18:04
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What does it actually mean for some random nobody in the West to condemn and denounce the tactics of Hamas? How are you condemning them? Who are you denouncing them to? What is the importance of these personal statements on approval or disapproval of tactics in a conflict you have nothing to do with? Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Oct 28, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 18:06
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 18:07
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punishedkissinger posted:Israel just openly targeting the areas they told civilians to flee to. And this is why there is no reality where playing the morality police on Palestinians is okay. If the international community has a problem with it then they are welcome to take stricter action against Israel.
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Oct 28, 2023 18:12
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An alternative version of the October 7th attacks that focused on military targets, rather than villages and a concert, would not be worthy of condemnation and might have been an effective tactic to put pressure on Israel. Sadly we know this is not what occurred, due to video evidence that Hamas itself recorded and posted to social media.
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Oct 28, 2023 18:14
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mannerup posted:you are going to need to back up these extraordinary claims with sources, just because you want something to be true doesn't make it so So you're not going to engage in good faith. Good to know. So you'd be ok with Jews, Poles, etc just lying down and not fighting back against German occupation during WWII? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 28, 2023 18:14
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punishedkissinger posted:Israel just openly targeting the areas they told civilians to flee to. look guys we've used a whole lot of munitions on this, so if you could just condense into this defined area here that would be great thanks
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Oct 28, 2023 18:15
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 28, 2023 18:17
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mannerup posted:
The ideal solution is for Israel to lose all political and military support, face severe consequences for throwing their toys out of the pram over the UN, rightly stating that Hamas' attacks did not occur in a vacuum, and bring fourth an immediate and permanent cease fire. Whether you believe them when they say it or not, Hamas have been making attempts to broker peace and exchanges hostages (Including the Palestinian hostages that Israel have been holding for years without trial). The only response from Israel in its most generous interpretation, is that they wont stop until everything that is even vaguely related to Hamas, is wiped off the face of the earth. To give warning to the civilians to move from the south, then bomb the hospitals and bakeries there anyway. My point is that yes, horrific atrocities have been committed on both sides, but those perpetrated by Israel are far worse in scale, and much less justifiable, but perceived as less morally outrageous as they are done from behind an artillery gun Comparisons to previous conflicts are never a proper reflection of the situation or what led to it, but there needs to compromise and a process of trying to rebuild bridges - akin to the Good Friday Agreement. Hamas, and the majority of the people of Palestine seem to want to move in that direction. Whereas Israeli government clearly do not, they don't have to. They have all the power in this dynamic and the blind backing of two of the most powerful countries in the world. Until they are forced into a diplomatic solution, through global pressure, they will choose to continue their genocide.
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Oct 28, 2023 18:17
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mannerup posted:just because I (and everyone else in this thread) don't have an ideal solution to prevent further atrocities from occurring doesn't grant moral clearance to reprehensible behavior. Israel could of taken it's foot off Palestines neck anytime it wanted over the last 3-4 decades. There is your solution. There is pretty much a 100% chance Hamas would never have existed if Israel had not decided to be a bunch of wankers.
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Oct 28, 2023 18:19
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