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Israel is possibly ending diplomatic ties with Turkey https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-pulls-diplomats-from-turkey-to-reassess-ties-as-erdogan-blasts-its-war-crimes/amp/
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Oct 28, 2023 20:55
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I think at this point the only way that Israel is gonna stop is if the Israel public starts seeing their kids on the front line die en mass
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Oct 28, 2023 21:15
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E2M2 posted:I think at this point the only way that Israel is gonna stop is if the Israel public starts seeing their kids on the front line die en mass Sounds good (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 28, 2023 21:29
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https://twitter.com/dianabuttu/status/1718356313321754970
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Oct 28, 2023 21:50
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Sort of an aside, but what's the relationship between Jewish Israelis and Arab Israelis like? I spent some time in Jaffa a number of years ago and did not notice any particular problems, but I may well have just been oblivious to it.
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Oct 28, 2023 22:29
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sweek0 posted:Sort of an aside, but what's the relationship between Jewish Israelis and Arab Israelis like? Really bad, Arab Israelis face a lot of discrimination. A lot of it is structural as well, meaning poorer communities, less opportunities for good jobs, lesser education.
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Oct 28, 2023 22:40
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sweek0 posted:Sort of an aside, but what's the relationship between Jewish Israelis and Arab Israelis like? This was published earlier this year, a journalist went back home in the West Bank and documented her experiences. Streets are blocked off for "the right people" etc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEdGcej-6D0
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Oct 28, 2023 23:02
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There is/was also a rally outside a college sheltering Palestinian students today/yesterday, in which they shook at the gates while chanting "Death To Arabs". https://twitter.com/Rrrrnessa/status/1718364407682466135?s=20 In other news: A couple of IDF soldiers crossed the border, shuffled up a couple kilometers, and then planted a flag at an unpopulated beachfront property. https://twitter.com/ytirawi/status/1718386234467168573?s=20 I really feel like Hasbara used to be better than this. Is it complacency? Did the propaganda wing atrophy in the same way that the IDF ground forces did?
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Oct 28, 2023 23:08
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sweek0 posted:Sort of an aside, but what's the relationship between Jewish Israelis and Arab Israelis like? Vigilante groups patrol looking for Jewish Israeli woman dating Arab Israeli men. So uh, yeah. Not great. https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113724468 That's from a while back, I've also read about the women being kidnapped "for their own good", but can't find the source on that.
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Oct 29, 2023 00:04
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There are a few posters in particular who I'm sure will be weighing in on this any minute now. A few significant differences from the last rally that had the concern trolls popping out though: 1) the explicitly racist chanting, 2) there weren't Palestinian participants in the rally and 3) this doesn't appear to be in protest of anything, but just a violent mob.
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Oct 29, 2023 00:05
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Brucolac posted:There are a few posters in particular who I'm sure will be weighing in on this any minute now. Yeah i wonder what level of racism this registers on a scale of "ceasefire" to "from the river to the sea"
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Oct 29, 2023 00:07
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Looks like there's going to be a significant ground war and occupation, different than previous events. https://x.com/shashj/status/1718310179547037862?s=20 Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 00:07
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Stanley Pain posted:So, um, school's out language problems aside, i'd expect to be able to find some form of corroboration also i rather doubt there are so few students, even uni students, in gaza that they could all be killed by this point fake edit: yeah, pretty sure that's a lie, here's the relevant official twitter account afaict: https://twitter.com/palestinemoe?lang=en govt website with no mention of "all the students being killed" https://www.moe.pna.ps/; numbers they put out in the most recent article are, uh, bad anyway, and if I want to be really charitable to the lying twitter account (I do not) it was a mistake in translation of what does appear to be a premature end of the school year in some or all of Gaza Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 00:08
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Don't worry, Israel is working on making it a truthful statement.
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Oct 29, 2023 00:13
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Looks like there's going to be a significant ground war and occupation, different than previous events. Makes sense. It'll take a while to kill two million people.
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Oct 29, 2023 00:20
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Looks like there's going to be a significant ground war and occupation, different than previous events. yeah they keep saying this and yet, day 22 and theyve made no meaningful movement inside the fence and the NYtimes is reporting the invasion has been called off (again) https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1718394732647453114?t=bl5_1AuUIfkBrn35HPYHNg&s=19 i think, despite what the defense industry insists, that Israel's armored vehicles arent magically able to roll through occupied cities any better than anyone elses if they want to really do this they will pay a cost, which i am not sure the Israeli public is particularly interested in paying right now i hope we are able to deescalate and prevent further meaningless bloodshed
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Oct 29, 2023 00:22
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Looks like there's going to be a significant ground war and occupation, different than previous events. The article kind of says the opposite (I suspect the tweeter didn't actually understand it himself, despite being the defense editor). While the article does use the phrase "ground campaign" once or twice, there's no indication here that the IDF plans for the ground troops to do much actual fighting or occupying. Rather, the article suggests that the IDF intends to continue the total blockade for several months while refraining from actually invading, avoiding combat and waiting for Hamas (and everyone else) to run out of food and fuel. At most, there's hints that maybe the IDF will occupy the unpopulated areas around Gaza City to cut it off directly, allowing them to focus the siege on just one portion of Gaza, but even that's basically just conjecture.
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Oct 29, 2023 00:36
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Brucolac posted:There are a few posters in particular who I'm sure will be weighing in on this any minute now. I saw this earlier today and the thing that stands out is, chants like "death to america" and "death to israel" are about the death of the institutions that they (the west, america, europe, the states of oppressions, et al) represent. The chant "death to arabs" are specifically about a people. "Arabs". It surprised me but I realize I shouldn't be surprised since the goal of settlers is to do just that to locals. Settlers want the land.
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Oct 29, 2023 01:31
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"Death to Likud, the Zionist regime, imprisonment of Gaza, the settlement movement in the West Bank, and the ostracization of Jews who are not ethnic Jews" is a bit of a mouthful for example
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Oct 29, 2023 01:39
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Main Paineframe posted:The article kind of says the opposite (I suspect the tweeter didn't actually understand it himself, despite being the defense editor). While the article does use the phrase "ground campaign" once or twice, there's no indication here that the IDF plans for the ground troops to do much actual fighting or occupying. Rather, the article suggests that the IDF intends to continue the total blockade for several months while refraining from actually invading, avoiding combat and waiting for Hamas (and everyone else) to run out of food and fuel. At most, there's hints that maybe the IDF will occupy the unpopulated areas around Gaza City to cut it off directly, allowing them to focus the siege on just one portion of Gaza, but even that's basically just conjecture. They're redoing the Siege of Leningrad, basically. But if the people in Leningrad were already malnourished, and being carpet bombed. This can't be seen as anything other than the extermination of 2 million people. Surely at some point someone is going to have to step in. Syria, Iran, Lebanon, whoever, at some point basic human decency will force someone's hand and they'll intervene to put an end to Israel's atrocities.
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Oct 29, 2023 02:26
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speaking of human decency https://twitter.com/davidsheen/status/1718393088824000737 a little mini Azerbaijan full of loving murderous freaks
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Oct 29, 2023 02:45
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Noise Complaint posted:Look, I think you're stretching a bit here or looking at the article after having drawn your own conclusion about it. I'm not seeing any evidence that Lid is wrong here, do you have better sources other than telling them they are stretching things? Also why everytime anything about Hamas is questioned someone accuses them of 100% believing Israel/US or whatever it's an obvious BS personal attack implying that you cannot question Hamas because the US also lies which is pure insanity because Hamas/Israel both are bad faith actors who have put out a large amount of lies/propaganda and misinformation, this is not some thing where if you question one side it means you have to support the other.
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Oct 29, 2023 02:57
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Party In My Diapee posted:I think we all know that if Hamas instead was a liberal or socialist organization that never hurt civilians, as soon as they did any kind of armed resistance they would be called antisemitic terrorists anyways. It loses all meaning when terrorist/freedom fighter is based on who the west supports at the time. If we rightly can call Hamas terrorists, we can not at the same time describe Israel as a state just "defending itself" against thousands of dead children, toddlers and infants. The PLO carried out attacks on civilians. They hijacked airplanes. There was also the Black September Organization which was a breakaway group that killed Israeli athletes at the Olympics. We can debate the morality of all that and whether they were "anti-Semitic," but that doesn't interest me as much as the logic behind these actions which I have hard time understanding even when reading about the leftist groups. Killing an Israeli soldier or police officer, that I can understand as a legitimate target in a just war. But I can't see how hijacking a civilian passenger plane and taking hostages accomplishes anything, or blowing up a school bus with Jewish kids on it, it just seems illogical. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDi4wxp5Pz8 This is usually justified as their conditions being very bad. But people who live in good conditions seem to be able to behave monstrously too, so how does anyone explain that? What then tends to happen is a reduction back to moralizing black/white categories: they're simply "evil" and that's why they behave that way. But I'm still confused. Then there are plenty of Palestinian militants who haven't done that stuff, and they live in the same conditions as the ones who did the bad stuff. And I'll read about resistance fighters in Nazi-occupied Europe who weren't doing stuff like that.
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Oct 29, 2023 03:00
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Zedhe Khoja posted:speaking of human decency This feels like some poo poo if you saw it in a movie it would take you out for being immersion breaking levels of evil. If basically any other country did this in any other situation everyone would be decrying it.
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Oct 29, 2023 03:14
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socialsecurity posted:This feels like some poo poo if you saw it in a movie it would take you out for being immersion breaking levels of evil. If basically any other country did this in any other situation everyone would be decrying it. It does seem like the question "does Israel have the right to exist?" has been answered with a definite no.
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Oct 29, 2023 03:18
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Increasingly it feels like there is nowhere left for nuance on this issue in any public discussion forum. On Reddit (yes yes yes I know) the worldnews sub is 100% in the bag for Israel. Here, SA looks to be 100% in the bag for Hamas/Palestine. There's nowhere left for nuance, in that both Hamas and the IDF loving suck and are filled with the worst people you know. Hamas is not all Qassam brigades, they run governmental services too. That gets lost in the noise and if you point it out in many places you're a terrorist sympathizer. If you criticize the IDF for killing civilians, you're anti-semitic in many places. This cannot, is not, will not ever be a black-and-white conflict. That this is forgotten or shouted over by one side, the other, or both at once is why the cycle of violence won't ever be broken. I don't believe this can end in a two state solution anymore, though that is - I feel - the correct and best way to proceed. But Israel seems intent on killing as many Palestinians as they can get their hands on. And when I try to defend Palestinians, I get called antisemitic and a terrorist sympathizer because people cannot distinguish between Hamas and any given Palestinian. When I say that civilians being murdered in their beds is bad and wrong, I get called a colonization sympathizer and an enemy of Palestinians. This entire conflict loving blows. Everyone in a decision making position here is terrible and the groups involved are simultaneously victims and perpetrators.
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Oct 29, 2023 03:19
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legit question: how likely is the most ghoulish hosed up scenario of Israel literally killing everyone in Gaza, the only survivors being people who managed to escape through the cracks?
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Oct 29, 2023 03:25
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Digamma-F-Wau posted:legit question: how likely is the most ghoulish hosed up scenario of Israel literally killing everyone in Gaza, the only survivors being people who managed to escape through the cracks? Close to 0. There's over 2 million people in Gaza. The Western world wouldn't let Israel murder 2 million people no matter what prompted the attack.
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Oct 29, 2023 03:33
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Gripweed posted:They're redoing the Siege of Leningrad, basically. But if the people in Leningrad were already malnourished, and being carpet bombed. This can't be seen as anything other than the extermination of 2 million people. I really hope other countries in the middle east will step in. Unsure what the U.S. will do, it infuriates me that they are waiting to stop anyone. They know if another country steps in that Israel is screwed. HonorableTB posted:Close to 0. There's over 2 million people in Gaza. The Western world wouldn't let Israel murder 2 million people no matter what prompted the attack. would really like to believe this, the situation just feels completely hopeless for the Palestinians. Israel is going to do everything in their power to make sure they get away with it. I said come in! fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 03:36
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I said come in! posted:I really hope other countries in the middle east will step in. Unsure what the U.S. will do, it infuriates me that they are waiting to stop anyone. They know if another country steps in that Israel is screwed. I feel very confident that the United States would not let Israel kill 2 million Gazans. Let alone what the non-western countries would do. I can't imagine a world where Israel goes full-bore open genocide and reaches a seven figure death toll without the surrounding Arab nations + Iran doing something in response, even if the US didn't do anything. If the Arab nations didn't act at that point their autocratic governments would be in mortal danger
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Oct 29, 2023 03:48
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For a city of Gaza’s size it’s impossible to accomplish through bombing, however much Israel would like to. History just doesn’t support the feasibility of it. Even World War Two strategic bombing rarely got to that point, and Israel doesn’t have that level of destructive capability anymore. North Korea famously had its entire civic and residential infrastructure annihilated, and it didn’t wipe them out entirely. They can kill tons with a blockade but even the starvation/thirst route will require the full compliance of other countries. They can reduce the population by alot, but outright erasure of the population would have to be door to door shooting while the Israelis are taking casualties themselves. Israel can do a century defining genocide well before they get to that point though.
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Oct 29, 2023 03:50
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It's entirely human to immediately sympathize with everyone and assume this isn't a black/white conflict, but the facts are that one side is offering a ceasefire, one side is offering a long-term plan to end hostilities, one side abides by its ceasefires, and one side isn't killing people in the West Bank out of impotent rage.
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Oct 29, 2023 03:51
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HonorableTB posted:This entire conflict loving blows. Everyone in a decision making position here is terrible and the groups involved are simultaneously victims and perpetrators. The main difference is one party in the conflict bears much more responsibility for the current state of affairs (on a decade long scale) than the other due to the extreme power imbalances at play and the way that power imbalance has been leveraged. No reasonable examination of the conflict can really get around that. My sympathies are with the oppressed over the oppressor.
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Oct 29, 2023 03:59
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Neurolimal posted:It's entirely human to immediately sympathize with everyone and assume this isn't a black/white conflict, but the facts are that one side is offering a ceasefire, one side is offering a long-term plan to end hostilities, one side abides by its ceasefires, and one side isn't killing people in the West Bank out of impotent rage. I believe that if Israel cared about the hostages, they would take the cease fire offer and get their hostages back. I also believe that Israel cares about these hostages but also has entirely written them off under their existing policy for retrieving captured IDF soldiers. I don't think Israel is worried about getting them back alive anymore and I think that is because Israel wrote them off the moment the scale of the 10/7 attacks was realized. I hate that I think and feel this way but I can't see how it's not true given the Israeli refusal to negotiate, communicate, ease off or stop bombing, or even entertain a ceasefire opportunity. I think Israel as a whole (including their population in general) is in such a state that they feel they are in an existential threat and there's nothing but the United States that can stop them from doing what they want to do at this juncture, and Biden has made it clear that will not be happening. Brucolac posted:Yes. The world would be a better place without the leadership of Israel and Hamas. I understand what you're saying, and I sympathize with Palestine more than anything else here. As a native american I understand the Palestinian situation in a way most observers probably don't. It just kills me to see the scale of people being killed in this conflict which had nothing to do with it and who were just trying to live their lives HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 04:00
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socialsecurity posted:I'm not seeing any evidence that Lid is wrong here, do you have better sources other than telling them they are stretching things? I'll follow along that while I can't evaluate The Cradle very well, one of the authors of this piece is from the RT/mintpress/Al Mayadeen circuit. edit: correction, both of them- and it looks like Sharmine Narwani is the main face of the outlet, though its funding is similarly unclear...the same "We're going to counter western media, here's some mediated Russian propaganda" model. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 04:08
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:There was a precedent for this called the PLO and affiliated organizations like the PFLP. Part of the issue as I see it, is that most of the debate around these matters is essentially media criticism. It's about texts and framing in the discourse. The thing about terrorism is that it fundamentally doesn't work when the other side is not politically responsive. The settler coalition has no incentive to bow to public pressure, they can double down on state security as a band-aid for actual negotiation. Until the emergency government collapses peace is impossible. note: Terrorism gets conflated symmetrical warfare a lot, which can make public discussion a bit confusing. they are different, primarily in direct target, asymmetrical warfare primarily targets armed forces and their immediate support. The goal of asymmetrical warfare is to make it impossible for the other side to win and eventually exhaust them, despite starting at a disadvantage. I hope i don't need to explain how setting an IED for a Humvee is different from setting an IED to blow up a school for women, the method by which the goal of enforcing gender discrimination is pursued is ultimately different. The resistance groups in occupied Europe couldn't benefit from terrorism, Nazi political structures weren't vulnerable to civilian political pressure. They engaged in asymmetrical warfare because they believed in eventual support from the allied powers. Direct targeting of occupation structures sapped resources from the front policing occupied territory. No one is able to bail out Hamas so long as the US stays involved, targeting the US never makes them back off, and so the only target left is the longshot hope you can eventually cause Israeli politics to swallow the bitter pill and negotiate in good faith. Its a rational tactic in the long term e: so long as you believe that you can force the other side to not final solution you. Hamas may have hosed that one up. Barrel Cactaur fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 04:12
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Neurolimal posted:It's entirely human to immediately sympathize with everyone and assume this isn't a black/white conflict, but the facts are that one side is offering a ceasefire, one side is offering a long-term plan to end hostilities, one side abides by its ceasefires, and one side isn't killing people in the West Bank out of impotent rage. Are you talking about the same side shooting innocent youth at a music festival out of impotent rage, took civilian hostages and won't release them, and haven't offered anything for negotiations or stopped launching indiscriminate rockets at civilians?
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Oct 29, 2023 04:37
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HonorableTB posted:Increasingly it feels like there is nowhere left for nuance on this issue in any public discussion forum. On Reddit (yes yes yes I know) the worldnews sub is 100% in the bag for Israel. Here, SA looks to be 100% in the bag for Hamas/Palestine. There's nowhere left for nuance, in that both Hamas and the IDF loving suck and are filled with the worst people you know. This thread has plenty of pro-Israel sentiment, and plenty of nuanced conversation about Hamas. No idea how you could come to the conclusion that every poster here is "100% in the bag for Hamas." See, for instance, the post immediately above this one.
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Oct 29, 2023 04:39
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:But I can't see how hijacking a civilian passenger plane and taking hostages accomplishes anything It used to work, Leila Khaled, jailed for a hijacking was freed from prison due to negotiations with a second hijacking. i fly airplanes posted:Are you talking about the same side shooting innocent youth at a music festival out of impotent rage, took civilian hostages and won't release them, and haven't offered anything for negotiations or stopped launching indiscriminate rockets at civilians? I mean this is just untrue. Hamas has offered for the release of all hostages in exchange for the release of all Palestinians in Israeli prisons. And they literally have released hostages, to Israel's chagrin. WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 04:45
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Brucolac posted:My sympathies are with the oppressed over the oppressor. This framework to view the world is simply reductionist and elementary, especially when applied to a geopolitical conflict that has been existing for decades. Muscle Tracer posted:This thread has plenty of pro-Israel sentiment, and plenty of nuanced conversation about Hamas. No idea how you could come to the conclusion that every poster here is "100% in the bag for Hamas." See, for instance, the post immediately above this one. He's right, though, the vast majority of posters here are pretty supportive of Hamas; That's how I was gifted this antisemitic avatar. What is the "nuanced conversation" you're referring to?
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Oct 29, 2023 04:53
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