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i fly airplanes posted:Why are you conflating Hamas and the people of Gaza as one? If Hamas unconditionally released all hostages what would be the next step. Without them I'd expect Israel would be even more unrestrained in their destructive actions. It's not a serious suggestion, anymore than asking Hamas to lay down and die. If Israel wanted hostages back they could agree to a cease fire for some of them. But they are more interesting in punishing Palestinians than they are in recovering their hostages. Probably much less interested since that granny who was released went off script and spoke about how well they were treated by Hamas once brought into Gaza. Marenghi fucked around with this message at 11:08 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 11:04
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Marenghi posted:It's not a serious suggestion, anymore than asking Hamas to lay down and die.
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Oct 29, 2023 11:51
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Ghassan providing more evidence of white phosphorous usage: https://x.com/ghassanabusitt1/status/1718591201647976947?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
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Oct 29, 2023 12:36
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https://twitter.com/Sprinter99800/status/1718561905055334884 Looks like Bibi got told to gently caress off by the military because he needs them on his side and they probably said we are not taking the fall for this gently caress up that you lied about blaming us for you idiot.
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Oct 29, 2023 12:54
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Pretty hilarious watching Bibi get completely dunked on so quickly into this war by his own military. This makes him look really weak.
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Oct 29, 2023 12:58
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https://twitter.com/EpshtainItay/status/1718578424644514241
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Oct 29, 2023 13:51
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Hamas has successfully captured soldiers in the past and used them to negotiate the release of Palestinians. Irony Be My Shield posted:An alternative version of the October 7th attacks that focused on military targets, rather than villages and a concert, would not be worthy of condemnation and might have been an effective tactic to put pressure on Israel. Sadly we know this is not what occurred, due to video evidence that Hamas itself recorded and posted to social media. When they killed two soldiers and captured another Israel killed hundreds of Palestinians. Had October 7th only been an attack on military bases/outposts and police stations and they only killed/nabbed soldiers and cops there would be zero difference in how Israel reacted. They also didn't brutalize or kill every civilian they could get their hands on as myself and several others pointed out the last time you or someone else made this claim. It's pretty easy to say what they did was bad without exaggerating what occurred.
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Oct 29, 2023 13:57
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I think its important to note explicit harm reduction to civilians in war is an extremely modern invention of international law, and even then, actors who genuinely try still have massive issues with soldiers and commanders diverging from the rules of engagement. Its unsurprising that HAMAS, a militia and not a professionalized modern army, did a ton of crimes. Its been the default in war for an extremely long time, even at a strategic level (See the present punitive expedition, and the fact their is an accepted term for punitive expedition). I don't see why Hamas would ever subscribe to that legal framework considering their enemy transparently does not in relation to them, outside of self-apologia in their propaganda. It sucks massive poo poo, but do remember the litany of offenses Israel commits in kind. No shortage of monsters on every side. This is Egypt and the rest of the regions red line, they will not accept a new destabilizing wave of Palestinian refugees. Barrel Cactaur fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 14:23
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Groovelord Neato posted:When they killed two soldiers and captured another Israel killed hundreds of Palestinians. Had October 7th only been an attack on military bases/outposts and police stations and they only killed/nabbed soldiers and cops there would be zero difference in how Israel reacted. Groovelord Neato posted:They also didn't brutalize or kill every civilian they could get their hands on as myself and several others pointed out the last time you or someone else made this claim. It's pretty easy to say what they did was bad without exaggerating what occurred.
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Oct 29, 2023 14:54
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I didn't make that claim in either of those posts. However, I think that it's reasonable to say that the plan was to kill/capture as many civilians as possible, given the tactics we saw on display (eg surrounding the concert, chasing fleeing civilians across the desert, subsequent waves of militants confirming that there were no survivors hiding etc). There may have been some isolated cases of militants sparing civilians but that does not change the overall intent of the attack. Maybe you didn't make that claim previously, but you kinda just did now. Also, what are you basing your analysis of the overall intent of the attack on? Just vibes or what?
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Oct 29, 2023 14:57
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Irony Be My Shield posted:It seems like there's actually a very big difference, given that Israel's current campaign has killed 8000 and is still intensifying. Israel will obviously be mad at and retaliate against any attack against it, but in the past the costs of waging war were deemed too high to go this far, and they were forced to negotiate for PoWs. That's not happening this time - the wanton brutality against civilians means that the majority of Israelis now want to see Hamas destroyed at any cost, and international objections are significantly muted. Yeah and there's a very big difference between killing two soldiers and grabbing one and killing 300+ members of the security forces.
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Oct 29, 2023 14:57
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I said come in! posted:What I would like to see instead is for Israel to be removed from the U.N. the United States and the rest of the international community turn their backs on Israel, and commit to a total blockade of the country until they give up their decades long commitment to warcrimes. Personally I'd like to see Elon Musk create a new Israel for the Jews on the Moon where they can all live in peace, but not before they plants groves of money trees to pay reparations and shoot Bibi into the Hauge with a canon like Looney Tunes. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 29, 2023 15:24
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My Hebrew isn't stellar, but it says roughly 5. Three proposed alternatives are: Proposition A: civilian population remains in Gaza Strip, Palestinian National Authority government is created Proposition B: civilian population remains in Gaza Strip, local Arabic government is created (?) Proposition C: civilian population is evacuated from Gaza Strip to Sinai Peninsula 6. Details (only highlighted parts) Proposition C is the proposition that will bring positive, long-term strategic advance to Israel Proposition A and B are unacceptable (literally "suffer from major deficiencies") Proposition A is the most dangerous for Israel
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Oct 29, 2023 15:31
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Diet Crack posted:1 drop in an ocean my guy - people have told you ad nauseum that the music festival raid didn't happen in a vacuum Intentionally murdering civilians "didn't happen in a vacuum". These intentionally murdered people are a "drop in the ocean". Do you guys not hear yourselves?
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Oct 29, 2023 15:32
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i fly airplanes posted:Are you talking about the same side shooting innocent youth at a music festival out of impotent rage, took civilian hostages and won't release them, and haven't offered anything for negotiations or stopped launching indiscriminate rockets at civilians? thats correct i think its perfectly reasonable to think the hamas side is more durable in any peace deal, this is statistically proven if you look at civilian deaths caused by each side over the years Homeless Friend fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 15:39
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Diet Crack posted:1 drop in an ocean my guy - people have told you ad nauseum that the music festival raid didn't happen in a vacuum IMO, you should probably take a step back and re-evaluate your thoughts when you start trivializing/excusing civilian deaths Kalit fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 15:43
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This is a literal plan for ethnic cleansing in plain language. Like, if this is actually genuine(and it looks to me like it could be), this is literal my_war_crimes.txt.
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Oct 29, 2023 15:46
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Kalit posted:IMO, you should probably take a step back and re-evaluate your thoughts when you start trivializing/excusing civilian deaths If you actually prioritize civilian deaths as something to be prevented that's just further evidence for their statement. You know which side of this conflict has been and is killing the most civilians.
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Oct 29, 2023 15:49
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double jupiter posted:Intentionally murdering civilians "didn't happen in a vacuum". These intentionally murdered people are a "drop in the ocean". I wish you guys were as fierce about ongoing literal genocide.
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Oct 29, 2023 15:58
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Stringent posted:If you actually prioritize civilian deaths as something to be prevented that's just further evidence for their statement. You know which side of this conflict has been and is killing the most civilians. Why do you think I don’t prioritize preventing civilian deaths? And as I’ve stated multiple times ITT, I can hate both Hamas and Israel. I don’t need this false dichotomy of picking “a side” in this conflict Kalit fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 16:01
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https://twitter.com/rjsalame/status/1718623867822829982 So should this be taken seriously or not?
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Oct 29, 2023 16:07
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Zionist government official funds trip to Israel by taking money from NY taxpayers. Weird to see state officials acting like they’re in the federal government. quote:New York taxpayers will be picking up the bill for Gov. Kathy Hochul’s trip to Israel last week, her office told Gothamist Thursday.
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Oct 29, 2023 16:12
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double jupiter posted:Intentionally murdering civilians "didn't happen in a vacuum". These intentionally murdered people are a "drop in the ocean". This is a very 1st-World, privileged selective morality. It's also very widespread, because it's so useful . There are several divides in the world public that inform stances on this conflict. Some are more visible than others. People who bomb cointries vs. Those who get countries bombed. Those who embargo vs. Those who get embargoed. Those who coup governments and those who get couped, etc. For the average western media consumer, the 'personal', visceral act of a radical/guerilla fighter sawing off someone's head will always seem infinitely more evil and intense than that of a blue-eyed pilot dropping fire onto a civilian city block and and scoring ten times the number of kills. Hey, some heads -might- come off during the procedure, but it wasn't intentional. _Those_ beheadings don't count. The notion that aerial bombing campaigns and 'special forces' missions are innately virtuous and less violent than whatever the wogs do is intrynsic to the current status quo. Likewise, blockades and starvation are designed to be invisible. Madeleine Albright's slow murder of 500,000 kids was famously 'worth it', and she was not wrong, in realpolitik terms; even the Human Rights hippies barely mention it anymore. To offer a smaller (but no less vile) example from my own country: In northern Brazil, one of the last-discovered native tribes, the Yanomami, was unti lrecently being blockaded and starved by local landowners/wildcat miners with the silent support of the Bolsonaro government and the Army. The pictures of emaciated, skeletal people and corpses would not be out of place in a holocaust documentary. And yet almost no one knew for months, even the brazilian agencies and NGOs that look out for this sort of things because 1- It's really far away and remote and 2- The besiegers have friens and money, buy ads in media, and the victims are 'just indians' and speak a funny language. Gandhi sort of warped perceptions for more than 70 years with his successful, peaceful protests. admirable though it was, it also happened in a VERY unique historical moment that is not likely to happen again; when the mass punishment and ethnic abuse of a people was seen as evocative of the recent Nazi atrocities instead of, y'know, business as usual. The Mau-Mau rebellion, east timor and other cleansings show how short that time window was. Robert Fisk was describing the Palestine situation as the last 'classic' colonial war 15 years ago. And colonial wars are, by definition, nasty and personal, with each side inflicting maximum pain on the other to get them to squeal and bug out. The big difference is that in the past, one side, usually the colonizer, had a metropolis to flee back to; French settlers abandoning their holdings in Algeria/Indochina to run back to France and rail that the government didn't protect their manor against the savages. This time, no side really has a first homeland to return to (other than the odd New Jersey car dealership owner dropping by to steal a Palestinian home so he can touch his origins). The point of all this is that most 'moral' gauges are skewed when it comes to colinial conflicts and war in general, depending on who does it, how well the thing is going, and how visible the pain is. Nearly always in favor of the strongest side with more backers. Any effort to 'gentle' hostilities and maintain rules of engagement and conduct are admirable, but breaching them doesn't really cost the powers anything. Who is there to judge and apply penalties? Themselves. Bloody sunday, Fallujah and Abu Ghraib were 'oopsies', blips gone from the radar, the perpetrators back home rich, serving as respectable consultants/media heads and smiling as they mow their lawns. Hey, if you think about it, the onus is on the wogs for not doing as they were told! Whatever the natives do when let out of their cages, though, it innately monstrous and representative of their entire people/government.
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Oct 29, 2023 16:18
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Szarrukin posted:I wish you guys were as fierce about ongoing literal genocide. Well, you see, it's okay to note that the genocide didn't happen in a vacuum, but not okay to note that Oct 7 didn't happen in a vacuum. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 29, 2023 16:24
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Sephyr posted:This is a very 1st-World, privileged selective morality. It's also very widespread, because it's so useful . (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 29, 2023 18:58
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BUUNNI posted:Zionist government official funds trip to Israel by taking money from NY taxpayers. Weird to see state officials acting like they’re in the federal government.
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Oct 29, 2023 19:08
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double jupiter posted:Intentionally murdering civilians "didn't happen in a vacuum". These intentionally murdered people are a "drop in the ocean". Israel has intentionally murdered around Why does intentionality only matter for one side? punishedkissinger fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 19:13
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punishedkissinger posted:Israel has intentionally murdered around 7k civilians this round, and leading up to it several hundred in the West Bank this year alone. Of course in the last twenty years or so they've intentionally killed thousands upon thousands of Palestinians. They've neutralized 13 Hamas officials. All that has happened for them to have that as their result.
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Oct 29, 2023 19:15
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I guess one of the ways Israel can ensure it keeps on perpetually receiving billions of dollars in economic and military support from the USA is to perpetually keep making new people that are willing to die in order to bring it down. It’s actually very pragmatic of them.
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Oct 29, 2023 19:32
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Szarrukin posted:My Hebrew isn't stellar, but it says roughly I'm not sure if we should be discussing random screen shots of papers but just Hebrew corrections: the Palestinian National Authority mentioned is the West Bank leadership (it calls for "importing" it). Funny enough, it also calls the friction between the PA and Hamas "the greatest impediment to the creation of a Palestinian state". It doesn't really mean "unacceptable". Suffer from major deficiencies is a better translation indeed.
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Oct 29, 2023 19:34
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Kalit posted:Why do you think I don’t prioritize preventing civilian deaths? And as I’ve stated multiple times ITT, I can hate both Hamas and Israel. I don’t need this false dichotomy of picking “a side” in this conflict Imagine that the Warsaw ghetto was located in Germany (with many German communities located nearby), and a militant group within it managed an attack outside where hundreds of German civilians were killed or taken as hostages (alongside achieving lots of military casualties). Would your perspective be the same ("both sides are bad and I don't support either")? If not, why not? Maybe you believe these two situations are fundamentally different in some way. If so, how?
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Oct 29, 2023 19:41
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Ytlaya posted:Imagine that the Warsaw ghetto was located in Germany (with many German communities located nearby), and a militant group within it managed an attack outside where hundreds of German civilians were killed or taken as hostages (alongside achieving lots of military casualties). Not just German communities nearby but German communities that intentionally built next to the ghetto and moved there as part of a national project of restoring their claim to the land. Communities where living there made you a good patriotic German, communities subsidized by the German government who encouraged young families to move just outside of the prison walls. Those are all things Israel has been doing with the communities outside of Gaza and I think it's important when evaluating what happened.
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Oct 29, 2023 19:50
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Ytlaya posted:Imagine that the Warsaw ghetto was located in Germany (with many German communities located nearby), and a militant group within it managed an attack outside where hundreds of German civilians were killed or taken as hostages I struck out a part that AFAIK is speculation about the Hamas attack. If I entertain your hypothetical and a militant group from a nazi ghetto started targeting/slaughtering/abducting primarily German civilians in an attack outside, then yes, my perspective would be the same.
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Oct 29, 2023 19:56
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 19:57
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mannerup posted:In this hypothetical, did the militants also bring 8mm video cameras with them to document their atrocities while slaughtering women and children, including a bunch of young non-Germans attending a music festival and foreign workers from Siam, while also taking children and elderly people hostage? And did it take place on the 50th anniversary of the invasion of Germany by the Jewish states of France, Belgium, Poland and the Netherlands in an attempt to conquer it?
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Oct 29, 2023 20:17
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mannerup posted:In this hypothetical, did the militants also bring 8mm video cameras with them to document their atrocities while slaughtering women and children, including a bunch of young non-Germans attending a music festival and foreign workers from Siam, while also taking children and elderly people hostage? i do kinda feel like they would have worn the gopros if they had them in warsaw tbh
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Oct 29, 2023 20:20
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The real takeaway here that'll help to reduce civilian casualties would be to arm Hamas with more advanced missiles and bombs. Modern western governments are able to carry out their missions because the civilians killed by advanced bombing strategies are extremely palatable deaths, and not demonstrations of inhumanity. Allowing Hamas to bomb Israel more effectively would replace the unfathomably unacceptable direct murders of civilians with the reasonable and pragmatic exploding murders of civilians, even if the end result is technically an increase in deaths.
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Oct 29, 2023 20:20
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mannerup posted:In this hypothetical, did the militants also bring 8mm video cameras with them to document their atrocities while slaughtering women and children, including a bunch of young non-Germans attending a music festival and foreign workers from Siam, while also taking children and elderly people hostage? Why wouldn’t the Warsaw ghetto fighters wear GoPros or do anything differently than what the Hamas fighters did? What’s different between the two armed groups that you think would lead to materially different outcomes?
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Oct 29, 2023 20:22
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punishedkissinger posted:i do kinda feel like they would have worn the gopros if they had them in warsaw tbh If it was modern times and they had the resources they would do the thing that is very common in modern armies, record the operation.
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Oct 29, 2023 20:23
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E: never mind
Kalit fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 20:24
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