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Gumball Gumption posted:Not just German communities nearby but German communities that intentionally built next to the ghetto and moved there as part of a national project of restoring their claim to the land. Communities where living there made you a good patriotic German, communities subsidized by the German government who encouraged young families to move just outside of the prison walls. Those are all things Israel has been doing with the communities outside of Gaza and I think it's important when evaluating what happened. At this point, why shouldn't we say that bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki destroyed "not just Japanese communities nearby but Japanese communities that intentionally built weapons for the empire, contributed soldiers to the imperial machine, and celebrated the racist ideology of the fascist regime." Virtually all civilians are geographically or economically joined to whatever their country's army is doing, most of them usually support what their country's army is doing. An attitude of "yes they are civilians BUT they are really little Eichmanns" only serves war crime apologia, as if the only true civilians are Hans and Sophie Scholl. And on a personal level it is perfectly reminiscent of every bullshit defense I've had to hear for Israel's wanton murder of civilians. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 20:43
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I don't think it's fair to conflate the towns around Gaza with the West Bank settlements. The ones around Gaza are inside 1947 borders, and some existed pre-Israel. In that sense they're same the as Tel-Aviv (maybe better, since unlike Tel aviv they aren't partially built on the ruins of Palestinian settlements). You are free to say that any civilian inside Israel is a settler, that's a valid opinion. But I don't think that makes them a valid target (obvs neither are any Gazan civilians).
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Oct 29, 2023 20:50
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I think it's fair to say that, if you drill down enough, you can make average citizens of any country complicit for the larger group, which is precisely why you shouldn't justify the deaths of any civilians with "well technically they're complicit because they vote/they didn't stage a coup/some other thing".
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Oct 29, 2023 20:55
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Yawgmoft posted:I think it's fair to say that, if you drill down enough, you can make average citizens of any country complicit for the larger group, which is precisely why you shouldn't justify the deaths of any civilians with "well technically they're complicit because they vote/they didn't stage a coup/some other thing".
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Oct 29, 2023 21:02
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Yawgmoft posted:I think it's fair to say that, if you drill down enough, you can make average citizens of any country complicit for the larger group, which is precisely why you shouldn't justify the deaths of any civilians with "well technically they're complicit because they vote/they didn't stage a coup/some other thing". Yeah this is what I'm trying to say. I think to take the Warsaw-ghetto-but-in-Germany example viscerally literally, where a set of concentration camp inmate take advantage of a massive breakout as an opportunity to visit random German homes and kill the families there, that's clearly a tragedy, a horrible moral catastrophe that's orbiting an unfathomable moral catastrophe. Maybe the satellite catastrophe is a tiny offshoot of the huger catastrophe, maybe they just got coincidentally entangled. Regardless it wouldn't be a step toward revolution or victory in war. Just hosed up and horribly sad. it would be (unnecessary) proof of Art Spiegelman's line that suffering doesn't cause character growth, it just causes suffering. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 21:05
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Kalit posted:I struck out a part that AFAIK is speculation about the Hamas attack. are you literally, seriously, unironically saying that you would empathize equally with the loyal subjects of Nazi Germany as to their victims, and would find the targets of the Nazi extermination campaign attacking Nazi Germany to be reason enough to oppose the goals and organizations of those resistance fighters equally as their oppressors', and to paint them in the same light morally? are you seriously saying that armed resistance against a genocide is the same as committing it or being complicit in its execution? I'm trying to find another way to interpret this but as far as i can tell you are saying that? do you have the same position on things like the Harper's ferry raid or nat turner's slave rebellion? the Haitian revolution? what would an acceptable method of resisting oppression in those scenarios be for you, a petition? also could you give some credible evidence to back your claim of hamas targeting/killing mostly civilians on oct 7th, because it seems like they were going for IDF military targets pretty extensively and attempting to take hostages, not kill people - if they were just trying to kill people, it would've made no sense to waste all that time that could be spent murdering on rounding up hostages as far as i can tell, the israeli deaths on oct 7th are mostly military (have they released any list of names yet?) and a huge amount of, if not a majority (i have no proof of this, fwiw) of civilian deaths were likely caused by the IDF self-admittedly executing the Hannibal Directive - those kibbutz homes with the bodies of hostages and Hamas fighters in them did not get leveled by Hamas tank and artillery fire - they do not have either. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 29, 2023 21:12
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FirstnameLastname posted:are you literally, seriously, unironically saying that you would empathize... During the Seder, a ritualized dinner ceremony which marks the opening of the holiday of Passover, which celebrates a mythical slave revolt against the Egyptian empire, Jews ceremonially spill out some wine at each description of a plague that struck the Egyptians. That's where I get my moral intuition tha it's good to empathize with suffering people, even as you are mad at them, even if they were directly or indirectly complicit in your oppression. This debate has totally moved from political questions, where the practical priority is ending the Israeli bombardment, to how-should-we-feel and who-deserves-empathy questions, where there's no politically useful answer except "it doesn't matter, be an empath or a sociopath or anything in-between, let's just end the Israeli bombardment." FirstnameLastname posted:(i have no proof of this, fwiw) Then what's the point of discussing it? Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 21:25
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FirstnameLastname posted:are you literally, seriously, unironically saying that you would empathize equally with the loyal subjects of Nazi Germany as to their victims, and would find the targets of the Nazi extermination campaign attacking Nazi Germany to be reason enough to oppose the goals and organizations of those resistance fighters equally as their oppressors', and to paint them in the same light morally? Welcome to dnd. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 29, 2023 21:44
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BTW Haaretz confirms that the "options" document above is legitimate. They also say that the government does not intend to discuss these options and that the ministry who compiled it is uninvolved in the decision making (which is true, it's one of the many fluff ministries added to give to greedy MKs). But I think that it didn't really need to be written down. These are the "options" as far as anyone in the Israeli government can imagine, probably. RE: civilian deaths in the Hamas attack. According to lists from Israel about 300 are IDF/cops. The rest of the 1400 are civilians and there are still around 200 (a mix of soldiers and civilians) considered MIA (aside from the official hostages count of about 200) kiminewt fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 21:53
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CeeJee posted:And did it take place on the 50th anniversary of the invasion of Germany by the Jewish states of France, Belgium, Poland and the Netherlands in an attempt to conquer it? You mean the 50th anniversary of an attempt by the Jewish states to recapture the territory stolen by Germany in a surprise attack 6 years earlier? (the analogy is starting to fall apart)
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Oct 29, 2023 21:55
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I've never seen so much argument from analogy as in this thread, not anywhere else on this site, and I'm not sure why.
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Oct 29, 2023 21:56
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FirstnameLastname posted:as far as i can tell, the israeli deaths on oct 7th are mostly military (have they released any list of names yet?) and a huge amount of, if not a majority (i have no proof of this, fwiw) of civilian deaths were likely caused by the IDF self-admittedly executing the Hannibal Directive - those kibbutz homes with the bodies of hostages and Hamas fighters in them did not get leveled by Hamas tank and artillery fire - they do not have either.
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Oct 29, 2023 22:01
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https://twitter.com/John_Hudson/status/1718676405129478344 Senior anonymous source, yes, but does look like communications are more or less back on: https://apnews.com/article/gaza-israel-war-hamas-blackout-internet-phone-abd024625526f6d808c1583afd58e2e7 and seems plausible from recent news that US backchannel pressure is part of why. Civilized Fishbot posted:I've never seen so much argument from analogy as in this thread, not anywhere else on this site, and I'm not sure why. In fairness, I use similar concepts to calibrate my own reactions. such as to the US carrier groups Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 22:04
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SuperTeeJay posted:You can condemn what the IDF is doing in Gaza without minimising Hamas' conduct on the 7th btw. I’m minimizing it a lot, and the more the IDF kills the more it’s gonna get minimized because israel is tarnishing their deaths the longer the genocide goes on
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Oct 29, 2023 22:05
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FirstnameLastname posted:are you literally, seriously, unironically saying that you would empathize equally with the loyal subjects of Nazi Germany as to their victims, and would find the targets of the Nazi extermination campaign attacking Nazi Germany to be reason enough to oppose the goals and organizations of those resistance fighters equally as their oppressors', and to paint them in the same light morally? Note that I’m talking about targeting civilians, which I thought was abundantly clear. As far as my source for mostly civilians being killed in the initial Hamas attack: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/live-updates-whats-happening-in-the-israel-hamas-war-as-idf-expands-its-ground-operation quote:More than 1,400 people were slain in Israel during a surprise incursion by Hamas militants, including at least 310 soldiers, according to the Israeli government. At least 229 hostages were taken into Gaza, and four hostages have been released. Kalit fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 22:07
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Kalit posted:I struck out a part that AFAIK is speculation about the Hamas attack. It isn't no.
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Oct 29, 2023 22:07
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Edit: whoops wrong thread.
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Oct 29, 2023 22:08
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FirstnameLastname posted:also could you give some credible evidence to back your claim of hamas targeting/killing mostly civilians on oct 7th, because it seems like they were going for IDF military targets pretty extensively and attempting to take hostages, not kill people - if they were just trying to kill people, it would've made no sense to waste all that time that could be spent murdering on rounding up hostages
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Oct 29, 2023 22:08
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SuperTeeJay posted:You can condemn what the IDF is doing in Gaza without minimising Hamas' conduct on the 7th btw. Hamas’s operation is primarily a military operation. Israel’s is genocide. Civilians die in war and there are sometimes war crimes. Hamas did not start this war and is the only organization preventing the genocide of 2 million people. If the principal is “every government which targets civilians is illegitimate” there wouldn’t be a legitimate government on the planet. That is fine if that is your position, but there is really no point in engaging in political discussion. The suggestion they are equally (or comparably) culpable is a de facto defense of Israel for committing genocide. There are no perfect victims and if Palestinians were perfect victims they would have already been ethnically cleansed. The liberal world order does not bend towards justice, it bends towards genocide. Saying that Hamas and Israel are even comparable in their actions is genocide denial. Simple.
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Oct 29, 2023 22:11
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Senjuro posted:What propaganda have you been watching/reading to get this impression? There were more than 200 murdered in that music festival alone. That's not accidental. That doesn't happen if you're not deliberately trying to kill people. How many of those did Hamas kill vs the IDF?
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Oct 29, 2023 22:12
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Reik posted:How many of those did Hamas kill vs the IDF? This is whataboutism, and I'm not sure why many posters here have a problem with addressing the slaughter of the music festival youth without mentioning IDF bombings.
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Oct 29, 2023 22:16
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The official Hamas line appears to be that they did not aim to kill civilians, only take hostages (which have a slightly different moral calculus as the only historically meaningful currency they've been able to obtain in order to negotiate prisoner swaps and mitigate Israeli mass incarceration), but their troops on the ground may have gone loving rabid, on account of being a paramilitary force from a besieged ghetto where the median age is eighteen. This seems plausible, if not exactly morally exculpatory.
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Oct 29, 2023 22:18
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 22:18
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Mean Baby posted:Hamas’s operation is primarily a military operation. Can you present documented evidence for this? Hamas's attacks, especially the initial rocket barrage are widely accepted to be vs civilians in nature and not at military targets of the IDF. https://www.hrw.org/news/2012/12/24/gaza-palestinian-rockets-unlawfully-targeted-israeli-civilians If not I would recommend retracting that statement
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Oct 29, 2023 22:19
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Google Jeb Bush posted:https://twitter.com/John_Hudson/status/1718676405129478344 Israel also claims to have reopened more water pipelines, although I'm not sure how helpful it is without electricity. https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-reopens-second-of-three-water-pipelines-into-gaza/ It does look like America is not entirely happy with what Israel is doing, but it's horrendous that the best Biden's admin can muster publicly is stuff like this sandwiched between promises of unconditional support and vague threats to Iran. quote:Sullivan also said Netanyahu has a responsibility to "rein in" extremist Jewish settlers in the Israeli-occupied West Bank. "It is totally unacceptable to have extremist settler violence against innocent people in the West Bank," he said. quote:“[Hamas are] putting rockets and other terrorist infrastructure in civilian areas. That creates an added burden for the Israeli Defense Forces,” he said. “But it does not lessen their responsibility to distinguish between terrorists and innocent civilians and to protect the lives of innocent civilians as they conduct this military operation.” https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/us-asking-israel-hard-questions-gaza-military-assault-white-house-2023-10-29/
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Oct 29, 2023 22:19
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Reik posted:How many of those did Hamas kill vs the IDF?
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Oct 29, 2023 22:20
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A lot of these recent posts are feeling way too much like oct. 7th denial which is too close to holocaust denial IMO. I get they're not saying it didn't happen at all but the event is really getting trivialized.
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Oct 29, 2023 22:20
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Darth Walrus posted:The official Hamas line appears to be that they did not aim to kill civilians, only take hostages (which have a slightly different moral calculus as the only historically meaningful currency they've been able to obtain in order to negotiate prisoner swaps and mitigate Israeli mass incarceration), but their troops on the ground may have gone loving rabid, on account of being a paramilitary force from a besieged ghetto where the median age is eighteen. This seems plausible, if not exactly morally exculpatory. Given their propensity to kill civilians this last month it seems more likely the ones that went rabid were the IDF. Senjuro posted:At the music festival which was one of the first places hit and the IDF still had no idea what even happened let alone organized a response? That was all firmly on Hamas. Go watch the horrific videos if you need convincing. I watched the video that showed an IDF tank at the festival.
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Oct 29, 2023 22:23
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i fly airplanes posted:This is whataboutism, and I'm not sure why many posters here have a problem with addressing the slaughter of the music festival youth without mentioning IDF bombings. The whataboutism is constantly going back to an even 3 weeks ago to denounce an entire government while the enemy they are fighting is committing genocide. The issue with this comment is it uncritically portrays the IDF version of events. The reporters were taken on “tours” by the IDF. This is not independent reporting, rather it is embedded reporting. The IDF and western media have routinely fabricated events. The witnesses portray a more complicated story. It is irrational to take those figures and version of events at face value. The confirmed death count by Israel is closer to 700 with half being military personnel. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 29, 2023 22:23
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Groovelord Neato posted:It isn't no. What does “lots of military casualties” mean to you? IMO, a ~22% Israeli soldier kill rate (per the source I linked in my previous post) when looking at overall deaths definitely does not meet that criteria. Especially when it’s only ~0.2% of IDF’s active personnel
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Oct 29, 2023 22:23
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 22:28
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Darth Walrus posted:The official Hamas line appears to be that they did not aim to kill civilians, only take hostages (which have a slightly different moral calculus as the only historically meaningful currency they've been able to obtain in order to negotiate prisoner swaps and mitigate Israeli mass incarceration), but their troops on the ground may have gone loving rabid, on account of being a paramilitary force from a besieged ghetto where the median age is eighteen. This seems plausible, if not exactly morally exculpatory. It's amazing how hard some people try to convince themselves that an organization that not that long ago would routinely suicide bomb any crowded space they could get to is somehow above massacring a bunch of civilians even with all the videos and testimonies out there.
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Oct 29, 2023 22:31
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Paladinus posted:Israel also claims to have reopened more water pipelines, although I'm not sure how helpful it is without electricity. If I'm remembering correctly from previous disussion, 1) the external water supply from Israel is clean, it's Gazan wells and such that are contaminated, and 2) this probably isn't enough for drinking and cooking water. fake edit: actually this might be "inadequate for quality of life and presumably long-term hygiene, wildly inadequate for economic activity, adequate to not die" levels. article repeats that the Israeli pipes were about 10% of Gaza water use pre-conflict. I don't know if COGAT is a reliable number-reporting source, they're specifically the occupation government. There's probably reporting on that somewhere. quote:The remainder of Gaza’s water was in peacetime supplied by authorities in the Hamas-run territory through desalinated water from Gaza’s three major desalination plants, and water pumped from the coastal aquifer, which needs to be purified in water treatment facilities to make it potable. quote:The World Health Organization (WHO) says that between 50 to 100 liters of water are needed per capita each day to ensure that basic needs are met. The figure includes water for cleaning homes and washing clothes. bonus: in 2018 one of the big desalination plants was switched to solar power with the help of EU money, so as long as the solar field isn't bombed it's resistant to blockade
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Oct 29, 2023 22:34
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Israel is also claiming in one of the articles that one of the three pipelines was damaged by Hamas during the raid, I haven't seen corroboration yet.
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Oct 29, 2023 22:37
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MikeC posted:Can you present documented evidence for this? Hamas's attacks, especially the initial rocket barrage are widely accepted to be vs civilians in nature and not at military targets of the IDF. This is talking about the rockets. I’m not sure if this is your first time looking into this conflict, but Hamas rockets are very rudimentary. They can’t target anything specifically. I’m sure they would love the opportunity to surgically strike the concentration camp guards. The reason the launched the rockets was to create a diversion for their ground operations
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Oct 29, 2023 22:40
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Haaretz is still collecting names, so far 901 are confirmed dead from October 7th; 554 civilians, 59 police officers, 272 soldiers, 14 rescue services, for a ratio of 36% Combatants to 64% Civilians. This isn't likely to be the final tally, of course. Over the past week or less they've added 200 more names, so it's not too crazy to assume they'll reach 1400. One oddity I will note is that the raw number of IDF and Police names has gone down over time, but perhaps we can assume they were names later confirmed as hostages or simply hiding. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...af-7b5cf0210000 There's been interviewed survivors convinced that the IDF fired at or in the direction of hostages, including the one posted prior which alleged that they attacked Hamas soldiers attempting to negotiate a surrender. There's also been some social media threads examining spent munitions, but you should be skeptical of OSINT buffoonery. For the curious though: https://twitter.com/MichaKobs/status/1715617118354387046 (Thread that's made very meager circulation in leftist circles, guy is just some random German composer-director) Considering IDF competency or lack thereof, their instructed behavior with regards to hostage situations, and their propensity to blatantly lie, it's not absurd to believe that some degree of hostages and general civilians were killed in the crossfire. I don't think you should assume a majority were killed by the IDF, however. By all accounts, it seemed that Hamas expected to operate on a much shorter timeframe, but the IDF were so incredibly slow to respond that you had large swathes of soldiers in Israel's outskirts doing ??? while waiting for IDF to show up. For some that ??? Was bunkering down with Israeli families, for some that was shooting Israeli families, and for some closer to IDF barracks that was raiding said barracks. Ultimately, soldiers are violent and barely restrained in the best of times, let alone soldiers who have never seen the outside of their prison. There's not been a single ground army that didn't end up going postal on civilians, which can explain (but not justify) the carnage. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 22:54
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Neurolimal posted:
That Micha Kobs guy is some MH17 truther
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Oct 29, 2023 22:58
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Rukeli posted:That Micha Kobs guy is some MH17 truther I don't particularly care because I've a low opinion of these twitter OSINT threads in any case, but yes he does have his own biases. My description of "random german director" was moreso "this guy has zero credentials" than "this guy is impartial". Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 23:09
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Mean Baby posted:This is talking about the rockets. I’m not sure if this is your first time looking into this conflict, but Hamas rockets are very rudimentary. They can’t target anything specifically. I’m sure they would love the opportunity to surgically strike the concentration camp guards.
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Oct 29, 2023 23:14
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Senjuro posted:Rudimentary or not, nothing is stopping them from concentrating all those thousands of rockets on the closet military base. It would be easier than the far off cities they successfully target. With such numbers they'd be guaranteed to hit something actually useful. They choose to fire at cities because terror is their primary tactic, not because that's all they can hit. The rockets can’t aim like that. What part of that don’t you understand?
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Oct 29, 2023 23:22
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