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GrandTheftAutism posted:I'm fine with the consequences of my vote, I just wanted you to
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Oct 29, 2023 23:50
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about it.
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GrandTheftAutism posted:I already had a feeling the No vote was going to prevail, given the utterly weak nature of the Yes campaign, the sheer wall of misinformation the average punter kept running headfirst into, and the partisan split in Parliament. Can you see that your progressive No vote actually amounted to telling indigenous people "No, I don't think we should be listening to you particularly"? If we couldn't get this then we're definitely not getting a Treaty, I think your logic and reasoning are deeply flawed. Or do you think we're on track to get a better Treaty now?
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Oct 30, 2023 00:39
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GrandTheftAutism posted:Some No voters may have failed to foresee the consequences of the No vote, but I'm definitely not one of them. "I understood that I was voting to harm people."
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Oct 30, 2023 01:01
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GrandTheftAutism posted:My progressive No vote was based on my belief that I saw the Voice not as a pathway to Treaty, but more as a milquetoast replacement for same, and I was not alone in that view. Bucky Fullminster posted:If we couldn't get this then we're definitely not getting a Treaty, I think your logic and reasoning are deeply flawed. I said elsewhere that voting Yes would pretty much stall all current movement towards Treaty and push the cause back 10 years (the ALP would just keep pointing to the Voice and parroting "Look at the huge victory we achieved! What more do you want???" and the LNP and Nats and One Nation etc would just dig in harder) , but voting No would cement the idea that the general population isn't ready for this discussion and that would push the cause back 20 years. My Yes vote was a bullshit 'harm reduction' realpolitik choice, but neither outcome was favorable. People who wanted a Treaty were getting screwed whatever the outcome.  A Perfect Twist posted:Most of Australia thought the way you do but that still means they were misinformed and the Coalition leaned into this ("If you don't know, vote no"). I'm still mad that worked as well as it did, but not really surprised. I guess the only way to counter it would have been pushing the message "Voting no is picking a side, if you're genuinely not sure you can 'abstain' by voting informal" but there wasn't really anyone in a good position to get that message out. Also I guess the AEC would have been real mad at anyone instructing people to deliberately gently caress up their vote. Snowglobe of Doom fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 01:03
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bowmore posted:You could always go somewhere else ah yes, just what we need. more echo chamber that is convinced that the Yes vote will win because John Farnham let them use his song.
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Oct 30, 2023 01:47
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JBP posted:Ute drivers aren't ethical no voters. lol Laserface posted:ah yes, just what we need. more echo chamber that is convinced that the Yes vote will win because John Farnham let them use his song. that sounds like a huge demographic, possibly more than zero even
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Oct 30, 2023 02:31
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GrandTheftAutism posted:My progressive No vote was based on my belief that I saw the Voice not as a pathway to Treaty, but more as a milquetoast replacement for same, and I was not alone in that view. Some No voters may have failed to foresee the consequences of the No vote, but I'm definitely not one of them. I'm autistic, not stupid. I'm entirely in agreement that the voice as it was going to be constituted was weak and at best a sop. I agree that the yes campaign was judgey, preachey and horribly executed. Lidia Thorpe was right that Albanese should have pulled the plug as soon as the writing was on the wall. I agree with all of this, I agree that the voice is a fundamentally colonialist project and that you can never dismantle the masters house with the masters tools. In spite of all that, genuinely, how did you see a no vote as more of a pathway to treaty? How could you believe that anything other than yes would empower racists further, slam First Nations people back into the dust and take us further away from what we really need to do? The voice wasn't a good structure, but at least it could have been an advocate for good structures instead of it being a failed case for First Nations people even having a powerless representative body. In my view it was absolutely a lesser of two evils being a yes vote. Yes wasn't a path to treaty, but no was a path away from it. bowmore posted:You could always go somewhere else I disagree with this. If you engage in good faith I'm happy to talk to you. I'm glad the needling has drawn the progressive no out of the woodwork because it's worth having this discussion to try and salvage this poo poo the next time there is a progressive no case but a tepid yes is better. It's just like Brexit, there's a bunch of progressive reasons to want to leave the EU, but all of the outcomes were going to be regressive and poo poo and remove protections, so why would you support it? hooman fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 02:32
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Bald Stalin posted:This is nonsense. There have been advisory bodies in the past. There can be advisory bodies again. Nothing about the words in the constituion prevent or force it to be listened to and their advice to be followed. White supremacist settler colonial governments that represent ruling capitalist class interests do what they want when they want it. A vote won't change that lol A no vote is a pathway explicitly against it. I'm not going to argue that a yes vote will create a treaty. I'm saying that a no vote will block one. But hey, you got what you wanted. Come back to me in 20 years when we can start thinking about the voice again, let alone a treaty. hooman fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 02:35
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We are set to win gold at the next Olympics for gymnastics, just send a few progressive no voters
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Oct 30, 2023 02:52
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hooman posted:Come back to me in 20 years when we can start thinking about the voice again, let alone a treaty. This right here shows, sadly, that you really didn't pay attention nor learn anything at all from the revolutionaries despite the attempts to spoon feed it to you. Instead of this lighting a fire in your heart to get out there and organize and educate yourself further, you're just going to do nothing? Join us, do something tangible! Don't listen to these do nothing just vote status quo libs, listen to the revolutionaries that were the real force for change in history and join us. Organizing, serving the people, building a revolutionary movement that will drive change is how things have and will improve.
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Oct 30, 2023 03:15
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Bald Stalin posted:This right here shows, sadly, that you really didn't pay attention nor learn anything at all from the revolutionaries despite the attempts to spoon feed it to you. Instead of this lighting a fire in your heart to get out there and organize and educate yourself further, you're just going to do nothing? Join us, do something tangible! Don't listen to these do nothing just vote status quo libs, listen to the revolutionaries that were the real force for change in history and join us. Organizing, serving the people, building a revolutionary movement that will drive change is how things have and will improve. Still waiting for that revolutionary movement after the ‘99 referendum
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Oct 30, 2023 03:25
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Bald Stalin posted:This right here shows, sadly, that you really didn't pay attention nor learn anything at all from the revolutionaries despite the attempts to spoon feed it to you. Instead of this lighting a fire in your heart to get out there and organize and educate yourself further, you're just going to do nothing? Join us, do something tangible! Don't listen to these do nothing just vote status quo libs, listen to the revolutionaries that were the real force for change in history and join us. Organizing, serving the people, building a revolutionary movement that will drive change is how things have and will improve. If we couldn't even convince a majority of Australians to support a milquetoast voice, how are you going to convince them to support a revolution that threatens their position and status? Not to mention that Australia has actually succeeded in the past at delivering progressive change through voting, not revolution, with the enfranchisement of women and Indigenous Australians as key examples.
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Oct 30, 2023 03:33
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Captain Theron posted:If we couldn't even convince a majority of Australians to support a milquetoast voice, how are you going to convince them to support a revolution that threatens their position and status? You don't convince the masses to 'do a revolution'. Those weaker minor reforms happened because radical grassroots revolutionaries organized around and demanded far more. Not because the ruling class decided to let you have them on a whim out of the goodness of their heart.
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Oct 30, 2023 03:41
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e: nah.
hooman fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 03:45
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Bald Stalin posted:You don't convince the masses to 'do a revolution'. Hmm, so something like indigenous leaders from across the country coming together to draft a proposal for reform, like some sort of statement from the heart?
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Oct 30, 2023 03:58
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This is terrible to admit and you can all condemn me for this, but as a very progressive yes (and super white middle aged middle class) voter I find it very hard to muster up any enthusiasm for pretty much any cause that isn’t climate. I’m sure this is an emotional response driven by fear, especially for my kids, but when these discussions kick off about momentum for progress and revolution my immediate reaction is impatience about it being about any issue other than climate transition in the first instance, mostly because I don’t see how meaningful action will be possible - especially in Australia - without massive change and grassroots political organisation. Obviously people/governments can do more than one thing at a time etc but i just wanted to suggest a very real challenge here is that there are several huge policy areas where entrenched interests and governments are really failing or actively screwing us (housing, the care economy and inter generational inequality being other ones), and I wonder at how hard that makes it to build a movement around something like treaty with all this other existential poo poo going on. It drives me nuts people voted no when this seemed like a very simple “indigenous groups asked for this very modest thing, it seemed reasonable, why not say yes and take subsequent steps on their own merits given the clear and urgent needs those cohorts have endured for decades” without getting into mental fourth dimensional chess about what government’s would hypothetically do or not so afterwards. Meanwhile I am probably going mad thinking about climate poo poo like 75% of the time. I wonder how many other “progressive” people have a similar issue.
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Oct 30, 2023 04:15
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I don't know if a revolution is possible in Australia under current conditions. Things are too good for too many people to want to risk everything by overthrowing the government, and the people who are hurting are so widely dispersed that forming a core of revolutionaries faces insurmountable logistical and security problems. is the idea to form local cells and be ready to take advantage of an as yet unpredicted social crisis?
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Oct 30, 2023 04:27
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Hi ASIO.
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Oct 30, 2023 04:29
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Bald Stalin posted:Join us, do something tangible! Don't listen to these do nothing just vote status quo libs, listen to the revolutionaries that were the real force for change in history and join us. Organizing, serving the people, building a revolutionary movement that will drive change is how things have and will improve. Go on then, be specific What does this involve other than telling indigenous people we don't want their voice.
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Oct 30, 2023 04:30
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what does the thread think about moustaches on buses?
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Oct 30, 2023 04:34
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thatbastardken posted:I don't know if a revolution is possible in Australia under current conditions. Things are too good for too many people to want to risk everything by overthrowing the government, and the people who are hurting are so widely dispersed that forming a core of revolutionaries faces insurmountable logistical and security problems. I think it involves cosplaying as radicals while voting with Pauline Hanson and Peter Dutton. Non Compos Mentis posted:what does the thread think about moustaches on buses? I'm anti, if I can't grow a good one, why should a bus be able to flaunt theirs?
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Oct 30, 2023 04:35
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Recoome posted:We are set to win gold at the next Olympics for gymnastics, just send a few progressive no voters can i compete in climbing rather than gymnastics? i am not very good at gymnastics.
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Oct 30, 2023 04:36
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The radical no hosed up fundamentally because victory failed to radicalise anyone. If there had been unanimity between all progressive voices then only the most flagrantly bought and sold right wing indigenous Australians would have been saying no. Radicalisation relies on unfairness and injustice. Getting what you wanted doesn't exactly come off as unfair. Also lol at the idea of there being any successful revolutionary pathway for a minority that's unentrenched in a nation's economic, social and cultural life. Especially a minority that's largely non-revolutionary in approach to political redress.
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Oct 30, 2023 04:36
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Bucky Fullminster posted:Go on then, be specific renaming australia to “so-called australia”
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Oct 30, 2023 04:43
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GoldStandardConure posted:can i compete in climbing rather than gymnastics? i am not very good at gymnastics. you get the ribbon
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Oct 30, 2023 04:43
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Captain Theron posted:Hmm, so something like indigenous leaders from across the country coming together to draft a proposal for reform, like some sort of statement from the heart? Thr statement from the heart came from the ruling classes hand picked compradors. I can link you to further reading on it if you're genuinely interested in learning more.
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Oct 30, 2023 05:04
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Bald Stalin posted:You don't convince the masses to 'do a revolution'. Big Malcolm X opposing Civil Rights Act energy here because it would be good enough that most wouldnt radicalise to start The Revolution. We get it you're never going to be swayed from your Trotskyist politics and that conferring authority via a milqueyoast voice was offensive to your sensibilities We get it. We also get this is utterly asinine and that you have no idea where to go from here as the No vote killed all possible radicalisation by not resulting in anger for treaty but by apathy.
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Oct 30, 2023 05:09
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Lid posted:a milqueyoast voice milquey moore?
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Oct 30, 2023 05:11
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birdstrike posted:milquey moore? Don't make me pinch you mate 
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Oct 30, 2023 05:12
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Non Compos Mentis posted:you get the ribbon gently caress yeah ribbon
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Oct 30, 2023 05:16
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fez_machine posted:The radical no hosed up fundamentally because victory failed to radicalise anyone. If there had been unanimity between all progressive voices then only the most flagrantly bought and sold right wing indigenous Australians would have been saying no. Radicalisation relies on unfairness and injustice. Getting what you wanted doesn't exactly come off as unfair. This is a very good point - progressive no won but they haven't crowed or called for vocally Now The Real Fight starts because they're seen as well insane and saboteurs that no one would follow when the revolution comes. Instead they're a footnote, a bunch pointed to to illustrate that they muddied the entire concept and by doing so surrendered the very righteousness that empowered them. Instead they tried to co-opt the language if tge tes dismay at the racism that drove most of no while ignoring the question was a binary and that they won too.
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Oct 30, 2023 05:21
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trunkh posted:Hi ASIO. hi! slow day in the unmarked van.
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Oct 30, 2023 06:42
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trunkh posted:Hi ASIO. hey ASIO dude what's your favourite Shapes flavour
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Oct 30, 2023 07:12
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Autisanal Cheese posted:hey ASIO dude what's your favourite Shapes flavour 11 secret herbs and spices
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Oct 30, 2023 07:15
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Breetai posted:"I understood that I was voting to harm people." Lol Snowglobe of Doom posted:I said elsewhere that voting Yes would pretty much stall all current movement towards Treaty and push the cause back 10 years (the ALP would just keep pointing to the Voice and parroting "Look at the huge victory we achieved! What more do you want???" and the LNP and Nats and One Nation etc would just dig in harder) , but voting No would cement the idea that the general population isn't ready for this discussion and that would push the cause back 20 years. Some people like Briggs tried to get people to see that voting 'no' is simply accepting the status quo of poo poo and a Yes would not affect them directly but was generally positive for Aboringal people. It didn't work and the issue got confused with everything. It was a very milquetoast Voice that was damned either way if it didn't get bipartisan support. It will be interesting to see how places like Victoria roll out the state level stuff and what it's powers extend to. I think NSW and SA would probably do it too and ACT will get a version.
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Oct 30, 2023 08:00
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A Perfect Twist posted:Lol NSW has already essentially binned theirs, QLD has binned theirs, theres no political will to do it as theres empircal evidence people simply do not care enough about it.
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Oct 30, 2023 08:21
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Lid posted:NSW has already essentially binned theirs, QLD has binned theirs, theres no political will to do it as theres empircal evidence people simply do not care enough about it. Ooof! I thought NSW would get theirs. Indigenous Affairs is complicated at the best of times and getting anything of value done is like herding cats.
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Oct 30, 2023 08:31
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Also outrageously shocking how QLD did have bipartisan support until the referendum! Unfortunately no real way to tell whether the No vote was progressive or not. Woops!!
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Oct 30, 2023 08:37
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A Perfect Twist posted:
SA is doing it, the election for voice representatives is on March 16th next year.
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Oct 30, 2023 09:02
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Non Compos Mentis posted:what does the thread think about moustaches on buses? I think they need to read more theory.
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