|
Collapsing Farts posted:There are a lot of videos of Hamas specifically going after civilians and killing them in a very calculated and calm manner, so why are people pretending it was some false flag operation or some unplanned accident now? This is borderline insane. I wish people would watch the videos of the actual conflict to understand it better
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 10:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 06:18 |
|
|
SuperTeeJay posted:
I don't know if anybody is earnestly making that claim. I hosed up typing "looking more like more of the" and that got pounced on out of context. My post's context about the Hamas rocket part is inarguably true, though. The missiles were essential to disable the missile defense screen for the ultralight flyers to break the fence, allowing ground forces through. The rocket barrage was a figurative key that opened the doors. The "target" was depleting the defense systems, not the civilians housed under it. By Israel's own numbers, Hamas rockets have only killed eleven Israeli civilians throughout the whole conflict. For comparison, five times as many UN staffers have been killed by the IDF.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 10:34
|
|
|
moths posted:The rocket barrage was a figurative key that opened the doors. The "target" was depleting the defense systems, not the civilians housed under it. I'm not sure you can claim that the target was not civilians since they kept sending hundreds of rockets after the ground attack as well though. As stated by others before, there are videos of this stuff and you can see Hamas rockets being intercepted by the iron dome for multiple days afterwards... It's pretty clear that there'd be a lot more Israeli civilian casualties if they didn't have the iron dome. Again, there's no need to defend Hamas here - they are very clearly targeting civilians specifically. I'm not sure why anyone would think that Hamas OR Israel would try to minimize casualties when they both see eachother as inhuman. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ7asbdsMyI Zzulu fucked around with this message at 10:52 on Oct 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 10:44
|
|
|
I prefer the other thread's horrified hyperbole over this thread's endless epistemology (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 11:01
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:It's honestly significantly more ridiculous than 9/11 truthing. It only works if you completely ignore videos that Hamas themselves put out of the massacre they gleefully committed. What massacres that hamas has committed? The only one where large numbers of civilians were killed recently I can remember is from the Oct 7th. I'm assuming you are referring to the time when they used to suicide bomb inside Israel, or rocket attacks?
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 11:11
|
|
|
Was this posted before? I know no-one here likes Piers Morgan but this is more about the interviewee (Son of Hamas co-founder) than the interviewer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2BSDLFVT74
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 11:19
|
|
|
ughhhh posted:What massacres that hamas has committed? The only one where large numbers of civilians were killed recently I can remember is from the Oct 7th. I'm assuming you are referring to the time when they used to suicide bomb inside Israel, or rocket attacks?
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 11:20
|
|
|
Most people in this thread are on the same page of condemning Israel for the way they have treated Palestinians over the decades and how they are retaliating right now by inflicting thousands of civilian casualties. But then you get posters who also feel the need to defend Hamas and downplay literally everything they do... and obviously a lot of posters will surface to then dispute this. This does not mean those posters are on the side of Israel or against the people of Palestine. People itt have said some frankly outrageous stuff and I'm not sure if it's trolling or if it's what they genuinely believe. From the top of my mind; - Hamas is not targeting civilians with their barrages of thousands of dumb fire rocket attacks, actually. - Since Israel can defend itself against these rocket barrages they don't count. - They were just scared and angry 16 year olds who accidentally killed 1400 people on october 7th (videos suggest otherwise...) - Hamas does not use civilians as shields, that is Israeli propaganda (videos suggest otherwise...) - It was never "the plan" to kill civilians on october 7th, only kidnap people! (videos suggest otherwise...) - It's not a warcrime to kidnap civilians when Hamas does it / warcrimes are OK if they are comitted by Hamas since they are the underdog. - It was actually other organisations that joined Hamas into Israel who did all the killing on october 7th, Hamas only attacked military targets. (videos suggest otherwise...) - Yes their core ideology is genocide against jews, but it's OK because they are the underdog. - It might have actually been Israel who killed most of its own citizens.  - It's perfectly understandable that they started massacring the festival goers since the festival goers were only 5km from Gaza. Surely you understand this? - The corpse of the girl who was paraded in the streets of Gaza and spit on was actually alive and well and taken care of by Hamas in a hospital. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Collapsing Farts fucked around with this message at 11:43 on Oct 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 11:38
|
|
|
i am genuinely unclear on who is arguing about what and why but unrelated to that: AJ and AFP are reporting israeli tanks have been spotted approaching gaza city, with one on salah al-din rd spotted firing on civilian vehicles fleeing south from the city. (the latter reported by AJ.) AFP photographed tanks and a bulldozer north of the city.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 11:44
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 11:46
|
|
|
Zzulu posted:I'm not sure you can claim that the target was not civilians since they kept sending hundreds of rockets after the ground attack as well though. Because it killed the iron dome and at most eleven civilians. The rockets exhausted a billion-dollar "invincible" military target, while causing less than a dozen civilian deaths. (I can't find specific numbers for the October 7th rockets, Israel is claiming 11 for the whole conflict.)
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 12:00
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:I was referring to the October 7th massacre, hence why I used the singular form of that word as quoted in your post. How did you write that entire pedantic gotcha without even reading my post to check if it actually made any sense The only things I saw posted by Hamas was videos of them with old Israeli ladies and talking about how they were more moral than the IDF by directing women and children away from the fighting. Even afterwards Hamas is sending out very calculated videos of the old lady being released with them shaking hands. The point being, even within their propaganda, they are trying to present the actions they took as a moral stand. It's going back to the point you were presenting where you state that the propaganda Hamas is presenting supports the idea that they were out to massacre civilians. The only people presenting the idea that Hamas was out to murder civilian is the IDF.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 12:05
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:i am genuinely unclear on who is arguing about what and why but unrelated to that: There was a ground incursion to the north on the night they shut off communications; by all accounts it went basically nowhere, and the IDF confirmed it went nowhere by having a couple soldiers do a photoshoot in the abandoned beachfront property hugging the border. Tonight there's a ground incursion to the east which reached Salah; Hamas-affiliated sources are saying that they're repelling the tanks & bulldozers, we'll know if that's the case if the IDF do a photoshoot where they're tilling a field next to the border. Collapsing Farts posted:From the top of my mind; It was really tragic when the like five or so posters these arguments came from all accidentally fell into a teleportation machine & fused into one incoherent blob. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 12:19 on Oct 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 12:09
|
|
|
i fly airplanes posted:Why did the genocidal organization turn back on the electricity and internet? i fly airplanes posted:Would you consider America also responsible for 9/11? After a while one has to realize just how much one is being uninformed about all this, right? The sheer lack of knowledge about the US and 9/11, the fact that it was believed Israel turned on water and power back to Gaza…. These are all very important details that have simply not been grasped. BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 12:16 on Oct 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 12:12
|
|
|
I have looked extensively for posts regarding this but found none so here: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/28/protesters-shut-new-yorks-grand-central-station-demanding-gaza-ceasefire Its about NYC police thwarting peaceful anti-genocide Jew protests by arresting people en masse on Saturday 28th Good for them standing up for what they believe when they could just sit on the couch and enjoy being victimized by corrupt media I wish the Israeli people can learn from this and protest this senseless warmongering
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 12:16
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 12:20
|
|
|
BUUNNI posted:After a while one has to realize just how much one is being uninformed about all this, right? The sheer lack of knowledge about the US and 9/11, the fact that it was believed Israel turned on water and power back to Gaza…. These are all very important details that have simply not been grasped. Fairly sure anyone here understands and knows the history if the US incursions to the middle east that lead to the formation of Al Qaeda and prior to 9/11 attacks such as the WTC bombing. What they are trying to express is regardless of that and the entire backstory it never ever justified 9/11 and historically before and since has it been viewed as an act that rendered the arguments of Al Qaeda null and void.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 12:23
|
|
|
Lid posted:Fairly sure anyone here understands and knows the history if the US incursions to the middle east that lead to the formation of Al Qaeda and prior to 9/11 attacks such as the WTC bombing. I'm not sure how you can claim that when the Great War on Terror did tremendous damage to US prestige that only started to be repaired by claiming the moral high ground in Ukraine (with the US's attitude towards Israel quickly erroding the goodwill earned from that). There is a reason that 9/11 turned from a solemn day of rememberance into a joke in record time and it's the psychotic reaction of the US to it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 12:33
|
|
|
Collapsing Farts posted:- Hamas is not targeting civilians with their barrages of thousands of dumb fire rocket attacks, actually. Not in any real sense if you look at the death toll compared to how many rockets they've fired over decades. It amounts to symbolic resistance.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 12:35
|
|
|
YF-23 posted:I'm not sure how you can claim that when the Great War on Terror did tremendous damage to US prestige that only started to be repaired by claiming the moral high ground in Ukraine (with the US's attitude towards Israel quickly erroding the goodwill earned from that). There is a reason that 9/11 turned from a solemn day of rememberance into a joke in record time and it's the psychotic reaction of the US to it. Yeah but that was via axis of evil neoconservatism and really kicked into gear with the Iraq Invasion bullshit not because of Afghanistan or a belief that it was an overreaction to the initial Afghan attack. We have twenty years of gently caress ups since to point to but even now we haven't reached "9/11 was justified".
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 12:44
|
|
|
Lid posted:Fairly sure anyone here understands and knows the history if the US incursions to the middle east that lead to the formation of Al Qaeda and prior to 9/11 attacks such as the WTC bombing. America was literally directly responsible for 9/11. Fairly sure that misinformed individual does not understand that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 12:46
|
|
|
BUUNNI posted:America was literally directly responsible for 9/11. Fairly sure that misinformed individual does not understand that. Is this LIHOP, MIHOP or that America created a world where the hijackers had no choice but to carry out the attacks and bear 0% responsibility for what they did?
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 12:55
|
|
|
Mean Baby posted:Hamas primarily won a military victory. They basically destroyed Israel’s Gaza Division. They had a clear military plan. They stated unequivocally the leadership did not want to harm civilians. This thread has some extremely hot takes. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 12:56
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:Not in any real sense if you look at the death toll compared to how many rockets they've fired over decades. It amounts to symbolic resistance.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 12:56
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 13:04
|
|
|
CeeJee posted:Is this LIHOP, MIHOP or that America created a world where the hijackers had no choice but to carry out the attacks and bear 0% responsibility for what they did? America armed, trained, and funded the mujihadeen that planned 9/11 to weaken the USSR during their war in Afghanistan. America is thus responsible for 9/11 and the catastrophic military response to their own errors was an utter disaster. Big Hubris posted:In addition to all of the other ways they directly precipitated the GWOT, America's leaders also built their military bases on top of cultural sites destroyed by the awful monarchy they prop up in Arabia. It’s almost as if the US just loves to fund and arm horrible fascist regimes in order to sow chaos and death all over the Middle East! 
BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 13:12 on Oct 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 13:05
|
|
|
In addition to all of the other ways they directly precipitated the GWOT, America's leaders also built their military bases on top of cultural sites destroyed by the awful monarchy they prop up in Arabia.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 13:08
|
|
|
BUUNNI posted:America armed, trained, and funded the mujihadeen that planned 9/11 to weaken the USSR during their war in Afghanistan. America is thus responsible for 9/11 and the catastrophic military response to their own errors was an utter disaster. Don't forget how we also abandoned Afghanistan after the Soviets withdrew.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 13:11
|
|
|
Eventually, I fear that just like the mujihadeen realized that the US was using them as pawns in their own geopolitical plans, the Israelis will also realize they are simply being used as tools for Palestinian repression and will turn against the US.
BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 13:22 on Oct 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 13:17
|
|
|
BUUNNI posted:America was literally directly responsible for 9/11. Fairly sure that misinformed individual does not understand that. How is America directly responsible for 9/11? What's the correct point of view, in detail?
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 13:21
|
|
|
Crosby B. Alfred posted:How is America directly responsible for 9/11? What's the correct point of view, in detail? Again, America armed, trained, and funded the mujihadeen that planned 9/11 to weaken the USSR during their war in Afghanistan.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 13:27
|
|
|
I think it's reasonable to say that US foreign policy failures led indirectly to 9/11. That doesn't in any way absolve Al Qaeda of the crime though. Similarly the fact that Israeli policies helped put a bunch of deranged psychopathic morons in charge of Gaza doesn't mean that those deranged psychopathic morons are good guys
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 13:29
|
|
|
BUUNNI posted:Eventually, I fear that just like the mujihadeen realized that the US was using them as pawns in their own geopolitical plans, the Israelis will also realize they are simply being used as tools for Palestinian repression and will turn against the US. Umm... what? How far back in time are you trying to claim that the US primarily cared about oppressing Palestine and are only using Israelis for this mean? You're definitely going to need to provide sources for this claim.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 13:29
|
|
|
BUUNNI posted:America armed, trained, and funded the mujihadeen that planned 9/11 to weaken the USSR during their war in Afghanistan. America is thus responsible for 9/11 and the catastrophic military response to their own errors was an utter disaster.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 13:30
|
|
|
BUUNNI posted:the Israelis will also realize they are simply being used as tools for Palestinian repression and will turn against the US. A 4000 year-long land struggle - actually America’s fault.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 13:33
|
|
|
BUUNNI posted:Again, America armed, trained, and funded the mujihadeen that planned 9/11 to weaken the USSR during their war in Afghanistan.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 13:34
|
|
|
TheDisreputableDog posted:A 4000 year-long land struggle - actually America’s fault. The land struggle is about a century old and that's being generous.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 13:36
|
|
|
BUUNNI posted:America armed, trained, and funded the mujihadeen that planned 9/11 to weaken the USSR during their war in Afghanistan. America is thus responsible for 9/11 and the catastrophic military response to their own errors was an utter disaster. You know Al Qaeda blew up the leader of those US-backed Mujahedin on 9/9/2001? The two are quite different groups of men with guns in Afghanistan. And even if they were the same group, how does training and funding people justify mass murder? Lots of groups receive training and funding without turning to mass casualty suicide attacks. This seems very much an effort to avoid the US ever being a victim, like Israel now also is blamed not just for creating the circumstances of the 7/10 attack but also the killings themselves by wildly firing into the people they tried to rescue. Famous US State Department spokesperson The Independent. Was that a Fisk article? Another one who sees violence as always exclusively the cause of the West, even as Afghans are beating him up. CeeJee fucked around with this message at 13:42 on Oct 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 13:37
|
|
|
CeeJee posted:You know Al Qaeda blew up the leader of those US-backed Mujahedin on 9/9/2001? The two are quite different groups of men with guns in Afghanistan.  If the US hadn’t tried to weaken the USSR by funding and arming Islamic resistance groups then there would be no 9/11. You’re also missing the point that the US should definitely do things like fund education and food initiatives, not arming insane religious fanatics and giving them CIA training. Two completely different things. TheDisreputableDog posted:A 4000 year-long land struggle - actually America’s fault. quote:On May 14, 1948, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel. U.S. President Harry S. Truman recognized the new nation on the same day. BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Oct 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 13:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 06:18 |
|
|
TheDisreputableDog posted:A 4000 year-long land struggle - actually America’s fault. Are you trying to characterize the I/P conflict as “a 4000 year-long land struggle”?
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2023 13:39
|
|
