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moths posted:Instead they ran with baby decapitations because it's looking more and more like the October 7 Israeli civilians were killed by chickenshit IDF panicking. This is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence, and no the one lady's account of seeing people get shot in the crossfire in a kibbutz isn't sufficient to make that claim.
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Oct 30, 2023 04:01
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DeadlyMuffin posted:This is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence, and no the one lady's account of seeing people get shot in the crossfire in a kibbutz isn't sufficient to make that claim. Eyewitness testimony from a non-state aligned party is actually the best evidence of what took place that's currently available, as far as I'm aware.
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Oct 30, 2023 04:04
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NovemberMike posted:Is there any actual evidence of this that isn't one lady saying she didn't see anyone shot by Israelis or is this just literal propaganda that people are repeating. Yes, it fits the overwhelming pattern of IDF's friendly fire and dumbfuck mistakes. And that's if you very credulous buy that they accidentally targeted international news agencies. And then Hannibal directive, if you can trust anything Israel says. Buy look, I was only answering this specific question that was asked: MikeC posted:Source and explain how raining rockets into Israeli cities targetting civilian population centers actively achieved this. If you'd prefer an apartheid state's propaganda over an actual eye witness survivor's account, nothing anyone else says can dent that iron dome on your shoulders.
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Oct 30, 2023 04:08
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Stringent posted:Eyewitness testimony from a non-state aligned party is actually the best evidence of what took place that's currently available, as far as I'm aware. So post it. Or is it that one eyewitness account of a gunfight in a kibbutz I referred to? I have not gone through the GoPro footage because I don't want to watch people get killed, but if they showed that the civilians were actually killed by Israeli troops and not Hamas I think someone would've mentioned it.
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Oct 30, 2023 04:11
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moths posted:Yes, it fits the overwhelming pattern of IDF's friendly fire and dumbfuck mistakes. So that's a no?
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Oct 30, 2023 04:11
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MikeC posted:Whataboutism As per this mod note, comparing the actions of Israel and Hamas is not whataboutism: Rigel posted:A quick note on "whataboutism": Source and explain how the posters you quoted were not referencing a party named in the thread topic or you must retract immediately.
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Oct 30, 2023 04:27
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DeadlyMuffin posted:So post it. Or is it that one eyewitness account of a gunfight in a kibbutz I referred to? Haaretz, the Israeli newspaper, seems to have covered this event a few days ago. Other news sites have also written about this. quote:...on Friday, October 20, the liberal Israeli daily, Haaretz, published an account of the events on 7 October as related by the commander of the Gaza Division, Brig. Gen. Avi Rosenfeld. The commander described how Hamas fighters overran the division headquarters, killing numerous soldiers. He then states that the “division was compelled to request an aerial strike against the base itself in order to repulse the terrorists.” I think this is the Haaretz article in question. https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-10-20/ty-article-magazine/.premium/0000018b-499a-dc3c-a5df-ddbaab290000  When you lose even the Bush-era war criminals.... https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1718691454212874335 BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 04:29
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BUUNNI posted:Haaretz, the Israeli newspaper, seems to have covered this event a few days ago. Other news sites have also written about this. This is the claim: moths posted:it's looking more and more like the October 7 Israeli civilians were killed by chickenshit IDF panicking. Your Haaretz article doesn't say this from what I can see in front of the paywall, with Google translate. Can you post a full article with translation?
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Oct 30, 2023 04:35
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Now, particularly, it seems absolutely ghoulish. So much so that, in my estimation, still continuing to argue about it would be at cross-purposes with any goal except to try to distract and confuse on the behalf of the apartheid regime as amateur (?) propagandists. Just my opinion, though!
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Oct 30, 2023 04:40
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DeadlyMuffin posted:This is the claim: There have been reports of the IDF shelling and destroying settler buildings and killing their own citizens. If you can find proof that the IDF got rid of the hannibal directive protocol please show it. If you want to say "akshually the claim was the EVERY israeli non-combatant death was caused by the IDF" then go right ahead, but I think everyone that has been following this war knows for a fact the IDF has zero issues with killing their own citizens in order to strike at the Palestinians. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 04:40
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BUUNNI posted:There have been reports of the IDF shelling and destroying settler buildings and killing their own citizens. If you can find proof that the IDF got rid of the hannibal directive protocol please show it. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Can you clarify?
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Oct 30, 2023 04:54
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Again, the IDF has zero issues with killing their own citizens in order to strike at the Palestinians.
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Oct 30, 2023 05:05
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BUUNNI posted:Again, the IDF has zero issues with killing their own citizens in order to strike at the Palestinians. Sure, neither do the Palestinians in general. Both sides will do hosed up stuff. Is there any specific evidence or is this just conspiracy theory tier stuff? Are we going to have to go over Jewish space lasers next?
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Oct 30, 2023 05:09
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NovemberMike posted:Sure, neither do the Palestinians in general. Both sides will do hosed up stuff. Is there any specific evidence or is this just conspiracy theory tier stuff? Are we going to have to go over Jewish space lasers next? So the first part of your post agrees with the assertion, then the second part of your post says that the thing you just finished agreeing with is a conspiracy theory. Can you at least stay somewhat consistent?
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Oct 30, 2023 05:15
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BUUNNI posted:So the first part of your post agrees with the assertion, then the second part of your post says that the thing you just finished agreeing with is a conspiracy theory. Can you at least stay somewhat consistent? You're right. How do we even know that the IDF is bombing Gaza. We've had Hamas drop thousands of rockets on Gaza before, maybe they're just really loving up their rocket launches these last few weeks. I'll put a /s for anyone too stupid to breathe here. When we have hours and hours of video provided by Hamas showing Palestinians murdering civilians and basically nothing showing IDF killing civilians it's hard to call it Hannibal Directive. The stuff we assume is Hannibal Directive isn't covert, they just carpet bomb the area and that's now what we saw.
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Oct 30, 2023 05:24
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One thing I have seen over the past few pages is amongst the get this back on track stop discussing Hamas and talk only about the ongoing genocide is a dissonance in you can't talk about Hamas without discussing that shoe on the other foot they'd be the ones doing genocide and this isn't a hypothetical both sides it's an exciting stated position. Though I do get the impression and checking confirms a lot of those saying that post words in support of Gamad effect in other places. It just makes the whole thing apparent that it's an inconsistency about how people believe in moral relativism for some bit moral absolutism for others. And the conflating of Hamas with Palestine is doing no favours here as unlike most other movements of similar quality, let's say the Tamil Tigers or the Khalistan Sikhs, the position isn't independence it's total control and genocide the other way. It's why this situation feeds into such polarising positions as even the most milquetoast find it hard to conform to that popularly. Israel was attempting to take over Palestine via salami tactics. Hamas responded with a simultaneously years in the making plan but with no idea what it was to accomplish massacre. In fact it's three weeks on now and it's still no clear what October 7th's point was either as a massacre or a military operation. In the first few days after some were frowing it succeeded beyond their wildest dreams bit I still don't know what that success was.
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Oct 30, 2023 05:59
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HookedOnChthonics posted:As per this mod note, comparing the actions of Israel and Hamas is not whataboutism: We are not comparing actions. The claim being made by Meanbaby is that Hamas is primarily engaging in a military operation implying rocket strikes directed at population centers serve a military purpose that is reasonably and proportionally greater than the collateral harm it inflicts. Mean Baby's own posts clearly indicate that he knows the rockets are too inaccurate to be aimed at military targets. Ergo the only reasonable conclusion is that the rocket attacks are intentionally aimed at population centers which means it is not a military attack but one aimed at sowing terror. Mean Baby tries to obfuscate this obvious fact with the Israeli mass punishment/genocide of Palestinians etc. by bringing in Israeli response against Palestinians both past and present. This could be justified as relevant if a counterclaim was being made that Israel's response to Oct 7 was primarily military - but no one is saying that. I was not making that claim nor was anyone making such a claim in concert. Any attempt to bring in Israeli actions in this context is the textbook definition of whataboutism, the attempt to deflect the inability to sustain one's position via implications of hypocrisy. I didn't pursue it further as he already got hit by martial law but the point stands.
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Oct 30, 2023 06:00
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Lid posted:One thing I have seen over the past few pages is amongst the get this back on track stop discussing Hamas and talk only about the ongoing genocide is a dissonance in you can't talk about Hamas without discussing that shoe on the other foot they'd be the ones doing genocide and this isn't a hypothetical both sides it's an exciting stated position. Though I do get the impression and checking confirms a lot of those saying that post words in support of Gamad effect in other places. The hypothetical genocide Hamas would carry out makes a long term solution harder to find, but in the short term, the moral imperative is to stop the real genocide that is actually happening.
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Oct 30, 2023 06:06
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Brucolac posted:There is a sizeable difference in saying you'll do a thing and actually doing it though. We live in the world we live in, the shoe is not on the other foot and the actual genocide is being carried out by Israel. But it also makes the short term solution harder to find hence the position we are in now.
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Oct 30, 2023 06:14
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Israel didn't boot the settlers out of Gaza until they came to a negotiated agreement between the PLO and Israel. Israel did not boot the settlers out of Gaza as part of or as a result of a negotiated agreement between the PLO and Israel. Your exact statement is technically true, in that there was a negotiated agreement between the PLO and Israel, and that the booting of settlers from Gaza happened later than that agreement did...but the two events were unrelated. The disengagement plan was unilateral, not related to any negotiations, and didn't particularly coincide with any. BrutalistMcDonalds posted:I dunno. At the least, I can't say I find the Hamas leadership particularly inspiring. I saw one official tell the FT the other day that they were "surprised" that the U.S. is getting involved. “An Israeli response? Yes, we expected that ... But what we’re seeing now is the entrance of the US into the battle, and this we didn’t count on.” That seems like a pretty bad plan if that's the case. But he also said the goal was to only grab 10-20 hostages. Instead they exceeded that by 12x. They didn't seem to have control over their own soldiers, and there were other groups and even random civilians who ran through the fence and grabbed people and Hamas doesn't even know where they are -- so they might not even be able to negotiate the return of some of these people even if they want to. I read someone else describe what happened as an example of "catastrophic success" resulting in blowback. I think it'll lead to Hamas' destruction -- and I'm not endorsing this, either. I'm trying to think as rationally as possible. There was a former U.S. Middle East envoy writing in the NYT the other day that (and take this with a grain of salt) that Arab officials he's talking to all tell him they believe Hamas must be destroyed but they're just not saying that publicly. I wouldn't put too much weight on that NYT article. For one thing, it doesn't really say anything new. Many Arab governments in the region have been quietly regarding Hamas as a nuisance and the Palestinian people as unimportant for quite a while, even if they can't say so publicly for political reasons. Moreover, the writer of that article, Dennis Ross, has been openly pro-Israel (and anti-Hamas) for a very long time. He was somewhat notorious for it in the diplomatic community; one Palestinian foreign minister described him as "more pro-Israeli than the Israelis", and other State Department employees and foreign policy analysts have backed that view. Also, he was involved in US diplomacy to the Middle East under three presidents (HW Bush, Clinton, and Obama), where much ink has been spilled about how generally unhelpful he was in Israel-Palestine negotiations - the Palestinians regarded him as openly biased against him, and other US diplomats found his closeness to Israeli officials to be more trouble than it was worth. The Taiwan analogy doesn't work here, because Taiwan has the unconditional support of the richest country and most powerful military in the world. Their independence is basically guaranteed. If China sends an invasion force to Taiwan, the US is going to step in to defend them. Palestine doesn't have a backer like that. In terms of the Israeli hostages and POWs, there's no resolution without negotiations. The problem, as I see it, is that the Israeli government doesn't want to negotiate. Partially because they don't want to waste any excuse to blow up a bit more of Gaza, and partially because negotiations mean making concessions and Netanyahu's far-right coalition would splinter over that. Unfortunately, it's increasingly starting lo look like Netanyahu is betting that intentionally getting the hostages killed will result in better political incomes than canceling the war and releasing Palestinian prisoners. moths posted:Yes, it fits the overwhelming pattern of IDF's friendly fire and dumbfuck mistakes. I find it quite believable that the IDF killed some of the civilians themselves, whether through them getting caught in the crossfire or through simply using overwhelming force without clearly confirming that the hostages were absent. Generally speaking, militaries aren't really cut out for delicate operations like hostage rescue in the first place, and modern military doctrine in rich major militaries tends to prioritize the heavy use of excessive firepower against any potential threat to the troops. In the panicked atmosphere of I also find it quite believable that Palestinian militants killed some of the civilians themselves. The Israel-Palestine conflict is absolutely loaded with needless killings of civilians on both sides, and Hamas is hardly an exception. Even before the blockading of Gaza, it's not like they particularly avoided killing civilians, and fifteen years of open Israeli brutality against Gaza would only have radicalized them further. And I don't think we actually know yet whether other groups like Islamic Jihad followed Hamas through the wall either. Personally, I think the correct answer is obvious: some civilians were killed by Palestinian militants, and some civilians were accidentally or carelessly killed by Israeli troops. There's no particular reason to think that either side has squeaky-clean hands here. One eyewitness report alone isn't enough to absolve either side; it's not like she personally saw every one of the 1000+ dead civilians. Lid posted:One thing I have seen over the past few pages is amongst the get this back on track stop discussing Hamas and talk only about the ongoing genocide is a dissonance in you can't talk about Hamas without discussing that shoe on the other foot they'd be the ones doing genocide and this isn't a hypothetical both sides it's an exciting stated position. Though I do get the impression and checking confirms a lot of those saying that post words in support of Gamad effect in other places. The shoe isn't on the other foot, though. It hasn't been for more than 80 years, and it's never going to be. Israel's spent decades with a saw slowly cutting the other foot off at the knee. So yes, it is a hypothetical both sides. You're looking at an actual genocide that is actually happening literally as we speak, and trying to change the subject to talk about an imaginary genocide that isn't happening. Moreover, this rhetoric has been used to justify countless atrocities over the years. White supremacist regimes all over the world insisted that if they were ever to ease up on oppressing their black populations, the black population would oppress the whites far more brutally and savagely. Colonialist regimes insisted that if they were ever to ease up on oppressing the natives, the natives would take control and oppress the colonial civilians far more brutally and savagely. The Nazis claimed that the Jews and Soviets would enact all kinds of hypothetical crimes and horrors against Germans and the rest of the good Europeans, and that was their justification for committing the horrible atrocities they did.
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Oct 30, 2023 06:15
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Lid posted:But it also makes the short term solution harder to find hence the position we are in now.
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Oct 30, 2023 06:22
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Main Paineframe posted:The shoe isn't on the other foot, though. It hasn't been for more than 80 years, and it's never going to be. Israel's spent decades with a saw slowly cutting the other foot off at the knee. So yes, it is a hypothetical both sides. You're looking at an actual genocide that is actually happening literally as we speak, and trying to change the subject to talk about an imaginary genocide that isn't happening. Thought this might come up because yes the scaremongering of if we don't kill them they'll kill us is propaganda 101. But, and this is the core difference, it is propaganda and in nearly every case it's a lie and a false representation of valid movements against injustice. And here it is used too against the civilian Palestinian population by the Israel propaganda wing. BUT and this is the point - unlike all of those propaganda points this isn't a lie concocted by Israel to portray their enemies as genocidal barbarians at the gates. It is Hamas' explicit overt and desired outcome. The deaths of the Jew in Israel. It's why those comparisons between it and white supremacist oppression don't fit because it's not a lie, the Israel lie is Hamas = Palestine and thus all civilians are blood Quantum corrupt to their core. But it's not a lie to say in this case shoe on the other foot. Hamas is a far-right wing oppressive conservative political party and you can't separate that from them.
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Oct 30, 2023 06:24
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Main Paineframe posted:Israel did not boot the settlers out of Gaza as part of or as a result of a negotiated agreement between the PLO and Israel. Sorry, I was referring to the Gaza–Jericho Agreement, which looks like it led to only a partial withdrawal. My mistake. The point I was arguing against was that violence was the only thing that had shown any effectiveness. It's a bad example though.
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Oct 30, 2023 06:42
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Lid posted:Hamas is a far-right wing oppressive conservative political party and you can't separate that from them. Israel: "Hamas is trying to kill me!" No one's trying to kill you. Israel: "Then why are they shooting at me?" They're shooting at everyone. They're trying to kill everyone. Israel: "And what difference does that make!?"
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Oct 30, 2023 07:19
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Why did the genocidal organization release two women on humanitarian grounds?
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Oct 30, 2023 07:22
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Gumball Gumption posted:Why did the genocidal organization release two women on humanitarian grounds? Why did the genocidal organization turn back on the electricity and internet?
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Oct 30, 2023 07:25
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Lid posted:and this is the point - unlike all of those propaganda points this isn't a lie concocted by Israel to portray their enemies as genocidal barbarians at the gates. It is Hamas' explicit overt and desired outcome. The deaths of the Jew in Israel. It's why those comparisons between it and white supremacist oppression don't fit because it's not a lie, the Israel lie is Hamas = Palestine and thus all civilians are blood Quantum corrupt to their core. But it's not a lie to say in this case shoe on the other foot. Hamas is a far-right wing oppressive conservative political party and you can't separate that from them. That is a lie, though. Hamas' explicit, stated goal is the dismantlement of the Zionist regime and the liberation of Palestine, along with a willingness to compromise for an actual sovereign two-state solution along the 1967 borders. Their spokespeople state that their fight has never been with Judaism or Jewish people, but specifically the State of Israel. You can say you don't believe that, or that the "liberation" of Palestine would be a humanitarian crisis that is easily comparable to the current situation, but that doesn't make it their explicit desired outcome. I wouldn't take that gamble in some magical scenario where the polarity suddenly got 100% reversed, but that is, again, meaningless speculation, because the hypothetical oppression that one can dream up as happening in the future should never take precedence over the actual material oppression that is happening right now.
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Oct 30, 2023 07:30
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i fly airplanes posted:Why did the genocidal organization turn back on the electricity and internet? The US state department. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/29/israel-war-hamas-gaza-news-palestine/
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Oct 30, 2023 07:32
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Lid posted:Thought this might come up because yes the scaremongering of if we don't kill them they'll kill us is propaganda 101. But, and this is the core difference, it is propaganda and in nearly every case it's a lie and a false representation of valid movements against injustice. And here it is used too against the civilian Palestinian population by the Israel propaganda wing. Whether it's true or not depends heavily on just how much injustice has been committed with that as an excuse. A fair few white supremacist regimes were right that the black population would commit atrocities against them...but only as revenge for the extensive atrocities the white regime committed in increasingly desperate attempts to hold onto their rule. The more brutally the oppressors fight to maintain oppression, the more likely it becomes that the oppressed will respond with similar brutality upon their hard-fought victory. This seems to have been particularly a problem in French colonies like Haiti and Algeria, where colonial administrators and generals engaged in such excessive brutality against guerilla resistance that it became impossible for the French to peacefully coexist with the natives afterward. While American slave rebellions never saw that same level of success, they typically didn't spare the wives and children of plantation owners they attacked either. But do those reprisals from the oppressed mean that it was wrong to free the oppressed, or that it was right for the oppressors to oppress them so harshly? No, just the opposite: it was only when the oppressors saw the writing on the wall and opened up to peaceful negotiation before the situation was at its breaking point. Not that any of this has any real relevance to Gaza or Hamas. All of the above examples shared one common element: some amount of the oppressor population was intermingled with the oppressed. Gazans have been effectively segregated from the Israelis for more than 15 years, with an extensively fortified border. Hamas simply does not have the ability to destroy Israel, and that wouldn't change under an independent Palestine. Even this raid was only possible because Israel was not seriously concerned about Hamas and pulled a significant amount of troops away from the Gaza border for political reasons, sending them to the West Bank to support settler pogroms. DeadlyMuffin posted:Sorry, I was referring to the Gaza–Jericho Agreement, which looks like it led to only a partial withdrawal. My mistake. The point I was arguing against was that violence was the only thing that had shown any effectiveness. It's a bad example though. I figured as much. Before the Gaza-Jericho Agreement, Israel exercised full control over the Gaza Strip, which was under complete military occupation. After Gaza-Jericho and Oslo II, Israel handed nominal control of most of the Palestinian areas of the Gaza Strip over to the newly-formed Palestinian Authority, but Israel kept control over the Israeli settlements in Gaza, the Gaza-Egypt border, Gazan territorial waters, and other particularly useful or strategically valuable parts of the territory. However, Oslo was supposed to be just the start of a larger process that would lead to a final resolution of all issues, final borders drawn, and a fully-independent Palestinian state. The Palestinians, in particular, expected it to lead to the settlements being withdrawn, while it soon became clear that Israel saw the settlements as valuable "facts on the ground" that would allow them to lay claim to more and more territory. However, once Likud was back in the government, Israel started dragging its feet on the remaining provisions of Oslo, finding excuses to put off the remaining stages of the phased withdrawals and transfers that had been agreed to. On top of that, further negotiations pulled together in attempts to get things back on track went nowhere. And the settlements just kept growing and growing, making it clear that they were unlikely to ever withdraw the settlements. It's in that context that the Second Intifada was set off by Sharon's irresponsible religious provocations, and after a couple years of Israeli attempts to suppress it via military means, it eventually led to the biggest large-scale withdrawal of Israeli settlements in the history of the conflict. But the withdrawal from Gaza wasn't negotiated with Palestinians at all - it was a unilateral move by Israel, taken on their own without consultation or negotiation with Palestinians. i fly airplanes posted:Why did the genocidal organization turn back on the electricity and internet? Israel hasn't turned the electricity back on, have they? They've lifted their communications blackout, but I haven't seen any mention of power being restored.
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Oct 30, 2023 07:37
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Gumball Gumption posted:The US state department. Thank you Secretary Blinken. Main Paineframe posted:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-concern-for-humanitarian-situation-how-much-water-and-power-does-gaza-have/amp/ You're right. This article goes into pretty high detail. Most electricity is from diesel generators at the moment, power lines have not been restored. Water has been mostly restored: https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-reopens-second-of-three-water-pipelines-into-gaza/amp/
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Oct 30, 2023 07:43
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:That is a lie, though. Hamas' explicit, stated goal is the dismantlement of the Zionist regime and the liberation of Palestine, along with a willingness to compromise for an actual sovereign two-state solution along the 1967 borders. Their spokespeople state that their fight has never been with Judaism or Jewish people, but specifically the State of Israel. While we can discuss at length whether the 2017 announcement replaced the Hamas Charter, despite which said announcement did not include recognising Israel and reserved the right to reclaim the rest of Israel for Palestine thus being the most worthless two-state solution suggested, it can be more forcefully argued that the 2017 announcement can be set aside by their own actions on October 7th as the entire purpose of that announcement was to put a moderate face on Hamas as they had become a changed party. So no calling it a lie based on the 2017 announcement is retrospective to pre-2017 comments which there are many many explicitly referring to Jews. If anything its outright being willfully ignorant.
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Oct 30, 2023 07:52
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Gumball Gumption posted:Why did the genocidal organization release two women on humanitarian grounds? You know they kept their husbands right? Seems like they released them so they could spread things about how "good" they were treated while their husbands are still being held hostage. Not that it isn't a terrible tactic it seems because it worked.
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Oct 30, 2023 08:35
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Stringent posted:Eyewitness testimony from a non-state aligned party is actually the best evidence of what took place that's currently available, as far as I'm aware. The original claim that it’s looking “more and more” like the IDF caused the civilian deaths is bollocks.
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Oct 30, 2023 08:47
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i fly airplanes posted:Why did the genocidal organization turn back on the electricity and internet? Because daddy US yanked the leash.
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Oct 30, 2023 09:04
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socialsecurity posted:You know they kept their husbands right? Seems like they released them so they could spread things about how "good" they were treated while their husbands are still being held hostage. Not that it isn't a terrible tactic it seems because it worked. That gets said a lot, but they weren't ambushed with microphones-if anything it sounds like Israel was asking them not to talk-and they still did a presser. Did Hamas stipulate the media circuit they'd have to run? Why did she mention being hit with sticks and being robbed? Did she go off script? Has she tried to recant that out of fear that her husband may be murdered? I'd be more sympathetic to the take if we didnt have established history on Hamas hostages that was nearly identical; Gilad Shalit was beaten by the soldiers that kidnapped him, then after being transferred he listened to soccer with his captors. Yocheved Lifshitz was beaten with sticks to corral the hostages into Gaza, then on transfer was fed what Hamas ate and had regular doctor visits. It seems clear that Hamas understands that, at the very least, it is of great benefit to them PR-wise to have hostages return to Israel and say "Those guys whos civillians we are massacring? Yeah they treated me well."
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Oct 30, 2023 09:06
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SuperTeeJay posted:There is dashcam footage of 10-20 Hamas militants standing on a road and calmly taking aimed shots at people fleeing the music festival and GoPro footage (taken by the militants) showing civilians being executed. I don't think anyone is claiming the IDF caused all civilian deaths and I don't think the claim they caused a large portion of the civilian deaths is well supported. However, the claim that some civilian deaths were the result of the IDF's 'no negotiation with terrorists' approach is a lot more defendable. Brucolac fucked around with this message at 10:20 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 09:07
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Google Jeb Bush posted:https://twitter.com/John_Hudson/status/1718676405129478344 I've been thinking about this since I read about it earlier because I couldn't figure out America's angle here. A near-total comms blackout was a perfect situation for Israel. Why yank the chain over something like this, but not to reel in the actual displacements and killings? If they had sincere humanitarian motives then getting the aid convoys safely back to full capacity, and stopping Israel bombing hospitals, would be vastly more important places to apply diplomatic pressure. So my thinking now is that the US does not want Israel to keep this up. This is not for humanitarian reasons. Getting rid of Hamas means the question of "what comes next" is suddenly vital, if the atrocities continues the Arab Street becomes unpredictable, if too many Palestinians are forced out of Gaza the consequent humanitarian crisis and general disruption becomes a huge headache, and at any point other actors in the region (namely Hezbollah and Iran) might decide they have no choice but to escalate. The US really doesn't want the consequences of a full scale regional war, let alone one where they have boots on the ground, and even less so if it becomes a war with Iran proper. However America is either unable or unwilling to directly reign Israel in. My guess is that Washington's calculus is that the attempt would fail and drive a major wedge between them, because Israel is currently far too angry to care and would tell America to go pound sand. So they are hoping that the pressure comes from elsewhere but doing so relies on the world seeing what's happening in Gaza. If the only thing the world sees is a general blackout, then only occasional and difficult to verify information would emerge, and when everything finally ended the atrocities would be in the past and governments would not rock the boat over a fait accompli. Thus, communications have to stay on. While the world can see what is happening, people worldwide can pressure their local politicians to tell Israel to stop, and all of the risks of continuing are sharpened for Israel who might otherwise convince themselves that, with a shroud of secrecy, someone like Hezbollah won't feel confident and/or angry enough to get fully involved, and the world can only get so outraged over speculation. As long as the information is flowing, Israel is forced to keep other factors in mind, and hopefully that will allow backchannel diplomacy to get them to accept a ceasefire.
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Oct 30, 2023 09:47
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There are a lot of videos of Hamas specifically going after civilians and killing them in a very calculated and calm manner, so why are people pretending it was some false flag operation or some unplanned accident now? This is borderline insane. I wish people would watch the videos of the actual conflict to understand it better
Collapsing Farts fucked around with this message at 10:15 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 10:08
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Why are people pretending Palestinians bombed their own hospital?
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Oct 30, 2023 10:14
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| # ? May 10, 2024 18:03 |
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Ms Adequate posted:So my thinking now is that the US does not want Israel to keep this up. This is not for humanitarian reasons. Getting rid of Hamas means the question of "what comes next" is suddenly vital, if the atrocities continues the Arab Street becomes unpredictable, if too many Palestinians are forced out of Gaza the consequent humanitarian crisis and general disruption becomes a huge headache, and at any point other actors in the region (namely Hezbollah and Iran) might decide they have no choice but to escalate. The US really doesn't want the consequences of a full scale regional war, let alone one where they have boots on the ground, and even less so if it becomes a war with Iran proper. there's a tendency for US State officials to forecast in a "the truth will out" way and therefore that keeping info lines open will tend to favour Israel more than it would effectively giving Hezbollah a monopoly on the mic regarding events on the ground which may or may not be true - worth observing that the Sri Lankan info shutdown on the Tamil Tigers during the closing years of the siege seems to have worked out for Colombo
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Oct 30, 2023 10:18
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