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ok there is no way this isnt a gimmick
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 13:41 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 08:21 |
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TheDisreputableDog posted:A 4000 year-long land struggle - actually America’s fault. This is a good post to remind people that a lot of Americans, regardless of political leaning, have accepted the propaganda that’s Israel is thousands of years old because the Bible says so
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 13:44 |
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Lid posted:ok there is no way this isnt a gimmick America gave them lots of money, weapons and training for many years to weaken the USSR. This is a historical fact. If you have proof that we didn’t arm and fund the mujihadeen in Afghanistan then I’d love to see it. Dr. VooDoo posted:This is a good post to remind people that a lot of Americans, regardless of political leaning, have accepted the propaganda that’s Israel is thousands of years old because the Bible says so Also a great time to remind everyone that the insane evangelical wing of the US government and electorate see Israelis as a kind of magical creature that can trigger Armageddon to occur. Kalit posted:I'm still waiting on proof from you about US using Israel because we want to oppress Palestine and how US is directly responsible for 9/11... Do you really need proof that the US likes to oppress Muslim people (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Oct 30, 2023 |
# ? Oct 30, 2023 13:49 |
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BUUNNI posted:America gave them lots of money, weapons and training for many years to weaken the USSR. This is a historical fact. If you have proof that we didn’t arm and fund the mujihadeen in Afghanistan then I’d love to see it. I'm still waiting on proof from you about US using Israel because the US government wants to oppress Palestine and how US is directly responsible for 9/11... Kalit fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Oct 30, 2023 |
# ? Oct 30, 2023 13:51 |
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The US permits the oppression of palestinians because Israel is useful to its imperial influence in the region. It frankly does not care about them one way or another, beyond probably wishing that they didn’t exist because it is embarrassing to have to cover for Israel. Modern Israel really has nothing to do with the antique kingdoms in the region beyond using them as part of their national myth. There certainly hasn’t been a 4000 year struggle between anything resembling Israel and Palestine.
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 14:02 |
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BUUNNI posted:Do you really need proof that the US likes to oppress Muslim people I'm asking for you to back up the claims that you post. Or it's perfectly acceptable if you want to backtrack those statements. fool of sound posted:The US permits the oppression of palestinians because Israel is useful to its imperial influence in the region. It frankly does not care about them one way or another, beyond probably wishing that they didn’t exist because it is embarrassing to have to cover for Israel. Yea, this is a good summary of US/Israel's relationship.
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 14:08 |
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People were ethnically cleansed from homes their families have had for hundreds of years, 1000 year old olive trees were taken from generations of the same farmers, but yes this is actually a constant battle going on for 4000 years. I think some people believe time goes diaspora immediately into crusades, and the crusades ended in 1947.
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 14:09 |
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Kalit posted:I'm asking for you to back up the claims that you post. Or it's perfectly acceptable if you want to backtrack those statements. Please go back and read the post in question and understand it’s one of my opinions and not something that the US state department is going to have a memo on. Frankly, your lack of reading comprehension is not my problem. Kalit posted:Yea, this is a good summary of US/Israel's relationship. Ok, so you do agree with me after all.
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 14:12 |
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Ms Adequate posted:I've been thinking about this since I read about it earlier because I couldn't figure out America's angle here. A near-total comms blackout was a perfect situation for Israel. Why yank the chain over something like this, but not to reel in the actual displacements and killings? If they had sincere humanitarian motives then getting the aid convoys safely back to full capacity, and stopping Israel bombing hospitals, would be vastly more important places to apply diplomatic pressure. I'm not really sure what "Yank the chain" is supposed to mean here, because there's no indication that the US did anything coercive besides firmly asking them in private to stop, something they're certainly doing about this whole situation in general. You assume that the communications came back up because the US side pushed harder, but it could very easily be that the Israeli side was just more willing to do so. It could easily be that Israel gauged the international reaction and decided it wasn't worth the trouble. Hell, we don't even know for sure that the communications blackout was intentional (though it's a reasonable assumption). As far as I can tell, Israel doesn't have full control over Palestinian communications lines. According to the Palestinian side, the communications went out because all the fiber links were damaged, and they came back up because the Palestinian telecom companies managed to repair one of them: https://twitter.com/Paltelco/status/1718007432494911717 https://twitter.com/Paltelco/status/1718469095899779564 mannerup posted:maybe all the footage they took of them slaughtering civilians wasn't the best idea then if they didn't want people to think they were slaughtering civilians None of those videos were taken by Hamas members. They were taken from Israeli security cameras and dashcams, and posted online by Israeli authorities.
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 14:21 |
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BUUNNI posted:Again, America armed, trained, and funded the mujihadeen that planned 9/11 to weaken the USSR during their war in Afghanistan. So what? Osama Bin Laden's own words along with the rest of the leadership for 9/11 was the support of Israel as a State (they want it destroyed), troops in Saudi Arabi, sanctions against Iraq and general Islamic extremism to kill non-believers. The mujahideen was support to help fight against the USSR occupation, that's it.
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 14:39 |
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Mr. Pickles posted:I have looked extensively for posts regarding this but found none so here: Getting really sick of this misinformation from Al Jazeera. It’s Grand Central Terminal, not Grand Central Station.
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 14:47 |
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:So what? Acknowledging that 9/11 was blowback for decades of American policy towards the Middle East is not justifying Al-Qaeda nor is it saying that the innocent victims in the twin towers deserved it. It is simply acknowledging reality. They were victims of terrorism which itself was a consequence of violent exploitation of the people and resources of the Middle East. Unfortunately the US government did not recognize that reality and responded by trying as hard as possible to create more terrorists.
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 14:56 |
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New War Crimes just dropped. https:// twitter.com/hebh_jamal/status/1718915623277723899 ik edit: don't watch this video if you don't want to watch someone die!!!! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Somebody fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Oct 31, 2023 |
# ? Oct 30, 2023 15:04 |
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VitalSigns posted:Acknowledging that 9/11 was blowback for decades of American policy towards the Middle East is not justifying Al-Qaeda nor is it saying that the innocent victims in the twin towers deserved it. If it's blowback for supporting Israel as State. The US along with the rest of the West is certainly guilty of that but so what? Are we arguing Israel shouldn't be defended or exist?
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 15:09 |
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:If it's blowback for supporting Israel as State. The US along with the rest of the West is certainly guilty of that but so what? Are we arguing Israel shouldn't be defended or exist? There's a lot of possible courses of action in-between unconditional support for Israel and demanding its destruction!
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 15:12 |
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Are we arguing Israel shouldn't … exist? Yes. The state of Israel in its current form as an avowed ethnostate shouldn’t exist.
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 15:13 |
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not the thread but I'm having real trouble locating the 'babbys first website thread' that undoubtedly exist on these forums I just registered domain names and purchased a hosting package for hosting anarchist and antizionist content (END THE APARTHEID STATE) but I have no idea how to put it all together please point me in the right direction.
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 15:15 |
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Silver2195 posted:There's a lot of possible courses of action in-between unconditional support for Israel and demanding its destruction! There is! A part of the issue is that Israel policy in the United States is largely driven by the Christian right-wing evangelicals which are in my view absolutely bonkers insane and should have zero place in government. More importantly, it would not have mattered even if you have more sane foreign policy because AQ demands the State of Israel to be annihilated and not exist. fool of sound posted:Yes. The state of Israel in its current form as an avowed ethnostate shouldn’t exist. This not the argument from Al-Qaeda or Hamas. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Oct 30, 2023 |
# ? Oct 30, 2023 15:20 |
Stanley Pain posted:New War Crimes just dropped. the car was trying to turn around when the tank round hit it, holy gently caress Somebody fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 15:21 |
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:If it's blowback for supporting Israel as State. The US along with the rest of the West is certainly guilty of that but so what? Are we arguing Israel shouldn't be defended or exist? The US support of Israel in the decades leading up to 9/11 went far beyond defending its right to exist. It's also not the only thing the US government did in the Middle East that made people angry, eg supporting the Saudi dictatorship
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 15:22 |
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BUUNNI posted:America gave them lots of money, weapons and training for many years to weaken the USSR. This is a historical fact. If you have proof that we didn’t arm and fund the mujihadeen in Afghanistan then I’d love to see it. To be clear, "the Mujahedeen" and "al-Qaeda" are not synonymous. Quite a lot of former Mujahedeen opposed al-Qaeda and the Taliban. (Having said that, the Northern Alliance types who fought the Taliban did plenty of bad things in their own right.)
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 15:23 |
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People talk about how there's a conflation of Hamas with Palestinians, but to some degree there's the same issue of part = whole within how people talk about Hamas, and specifically participants of Oct 7. It's not clear to me exactly how many people any given person is referring to when they say "Hamas", and the fact that Israel clearly benefits from tarring all adult Palestinians in Gaza with the same brush means that by their framing it might be close to a million people (all adult Palestinians that could reasonably be framed as combatant), or perhaps more like 400,000 if they restrict it to men from 18-65. In any case, when they say their war aims are to "destroy Hamas", we know they are going to redefine that constantly in whatever way benefits their framing (i.e. when they kill 7000 with missiles they will say that 2-3000 of them were Hamas combatants, and when they eventually have to pull out and declare "mission accomplished" after a few months they will say they achieved the destruction of Hamas because they killed some handful of leaders or destroyed their physical infrastructure or their weapon caches). For our OWN sake, we need to take care to not fall into the same rhetorical trap. When some people are talking about Hamas they seem to be talking specifically about the parts of Hamas that involve missiles and guns. I don't know what percent of people who would self-identify as "part of Hamas" that really is, but it is probably less than half and potentially MUCH less than half. As people have already mentioned, there are also people who are "part of Hamas" who are teachers or part of the ministry of health or doing secretarial work. Those two are not the same thing - I realize the Nazi comparisons are always on a hair-trigger here, but the day-to-day operators are not doing work that leads to the death of Israelis in the way that doing math for Nazis ultimately supported concentration camps. A single act perpetrated suddenly after years and years of relatively little violence is completely difference in scope, scale, and complicity from a years-long project done largely in the open. When people are being precise about their language they say something like "the Qassam brigades" in the same way that a distinction is drawn between IDF and Israeli members of government, or between the IRGC and the Iranian government. I think, at least to some degree, when we don't make these distinctions we are talking past each other. There's probably an even finer-grain distinction that we could or should be making between the people who jumped the fence on Oct 7 (who may have had general plans from leadership, but may also have included random opportunists and certainly didn't have fully regimented organization) and people who participated in past conflict or will participate in future conflict - an organization is its members, and in a place with such low life expectancy there might be a complete changing of the guard in 20 years. Certainly, it makes no sense to assume that the Hamas of 1987 is the same as that of 2000 or that the Hamas of 2000 is the same as 2017. Even the Hamas of 2017 has sustained many losses between then and now - and so it isnt odd at all that the somewhat conciliatory wording of the 2017 resolution that emphasized the issue being Zionism rather than Judaism transformed into the current issue. Some people in 2017 who believed that there was a way to a two-state solution got shot in the knees and died from inadequate medical care from 2018 to 2019. Others observed what happened and became cynical. When you kill unarmed targets, you decide that your next generation of opposition will be violent by survivor bias. On the flip side, when the craziest assholes jumped the fence to go on a suicide mission, their brand of Hamas lost some of its most ideologically fanatic proponents in the fighting that ensued - almost definitionally. The acts they committed almost certainly aren't representative of what the average Hamas soup kitchen worker wanted or hopes for, and if those actions are used as justification for their slaughter then the cycle will repeat. In sum, when you are talking about Oct 7th participants being war criminals, yes, many are. There probably are people above them that gave orders who also are. To some degree, whoever is responsible for holding the hostages is also directly committing or supporting war crimes. With all that said, there are almost certainly many in Hamas that wanted nothing to do with this plan and now are holding the bag. They didn't know this attack was planned, or else assumed that it would fail and the planners were being grandiose about objectives. Now they have to handle medical care and food and water for hostages, while trying to figure out how they are even going to get the hostages out when Israel won't stop dropping bombs. It's hosed, they know it's hosed, they see there is no way to go back to trying to incrementally improve conditions for Gaza, and so they try to get America to just let them give hostages back, or make a swap to return to the Oct 6 status quo, because the insane fuckers yoked to the opposite side of their cart went apeshit and flipped the whole thing over. Basically, what I'm saying is that, even without any sort of granular communication or reporting on the internal state of Hamas (partially thanks to Israel killing journalists and blocking communications), it should be obvious that there are groups within it working at cross-purposes. This is true of basically any group of a certain size with relatively loose structure. When people say "oh, Hamas committed this atrocity and now wants a ceasefire? How hypocritical and self-serving" it shows they haven't thought about the possibility that the Hamas that did the atrocities and the Hamas that wants the ceasefire are likely not the same people. Obviously there's little we can do to tell "this" Hamas from "that" Hamas until or unless a faction formally splinters off, and we don't have enough granularity in reporting to identify individual actors in the Oct 7 attack (and may never be able to see things to that degree of resolution), but even still we can be a bit more precise in who we are talking about. ETA: I think the same applies to various degrees in all the convos about the Middle East before 2001, so it probably isn't that useful to talk about things in the "smallest domino armed Afghanistan against the Soviets largest domino 9/11" sense. I think it can be reasonably agreed upon that there were a lot of junctures where American actions contributed to the ultimate outcome, but it certainly isn't "direct" in the sense that A logically leads to B, and I don't know that litigating that really gives us any insight into I/P, even by analogy when talking about Likud and culpability for 10/7. It is sufficient to say that Likud contributed to the structural problems leading to this outcome in various ways and that Israel could have made different choices at a huge number of points in the last 80 years (while also acknowledging that "Israel" doesn't make choices, and the problems are emergent from the structures) BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Oct 30, 2023 |
# ? Oct 30, 2023 15:26 |
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BougieBitch posted:People talk about how there's a conflation of Hamas with Palestinians, but to some degree there's the same issue of part = whole within how people talk about Hamas, and specifically participants of Oct 7. It's not clear to me exactly how many people any given person is referring to when they say "Hamas", and the fact that Israel clearly benefits from tarring all adult Palestinians in Gaza with the same brush means that by their framing it might be close to a million people (all adult Palestinians that could reasonably be framed as combatant), or perhaps more like 400,000 if they restrict it to men from 18-65. In any case, when they say their war aims are to "destroy Hamas", we know they are going to redefine that constantly in whatever way benefits their framing (i.e. when they kill 7000 with missiles they will say that 2-3000 of them were Hamas combatants, and when they eventually have to pull out and declare "mission accomplished" after a few months they will say they achieved the destruction of Hamas because they killed some handful of leaders or destroyed their physical infrastructure or their weapon caches). This is a good post.
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 15:32 |
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:A group of people slaughter hundreds of other people at a dance party. Why? Because they're "Jews" or "settlers" or "Zionists," the "thinking" goes. And we, the "Palestinians" or "Arabs" or "Muslims," are oppressed by them. The "Jews" are responsible. We kill them. The Israeli response then says "the Palestinians" have "only themselves to blame" for allowing themselves to be ruled by Hamas, and behaving as though two million people in Gaza or all Palestinians are responsible, which is a form of "thinking" that they know to be at the center of anti-Semitism too and an illegitimate justification for wide-scale violence which Israel is now engaged in. And even if I was on the other side of the world when the whole thing happened, any disagreement with the underlying moral ontology can only be to stand in solidarity with and further the annihilation of the other depending on who's responding. But I hope you'll admit that the racism and nationalism of the last couple of centuries haven't really been that wonderful, that millions of people have perished in ethnic cleansings as a result, and that the most evil ideologies lean on it. This is not a racial conflict, but it is a racialized conflict due to Zionism's fundamental nature as a Jewish-supremacist ethnostate project. The ideological driver of HAMAS is certainly racist to some extent, but this is again directly due to the Zionist apartheid entity and its abettors in the west: the oppressors of Palestine are Jewish supremacists engaged in an explicitly racial project that specifically dehumanizes and slaughters Palestinians. The sort of racial animus you call attention to is intentionally cultivated by the Zionist entity to provide ideological cover for their apartheid, and to destabilize and endanger Jews around the world to promote their fascist ethnostate as the singular place where Jewish people might feel safe and protected. The dismantling of the said ethnostate can and will redound to reduced antisemitism and improved Jewish-Muslim relationships around the world. I reject the (seeming, to me anyway) implication of your argument that this conflict is one of ancient and maybe intractable racisms, when that is clearly not the case: Jews and Muslims are perfectly capable of living together, and in many cases in share a special solidarity between their communities, especially within Christian-majority areas in Europe and the middle east. I will note that this sort of interethnic/interfaith co-mingling is something that the Zionist entity fights against. Again, ultimate blame for October 7th can and should be laid at the feet of the apartheid Zionist entity creating and maintaining the conditions, both directly and indirectly, for the rise of HAMAS and the attacks they carried out, in the exact same way that the actions of America in the middle east since the end of the second world war created and maintained the conditions for the September 11th attacks, the rise of Wahhabism, the violent jihadi groups that gained power in the power vacuums created by American imperial misadventure, etc. etc. You may (not you specifically, per se) agree with the ends: the defeat of the Soviet Union (in America's case) and the establishment of a settler-colonialist ethnostate (in the Zionist entity's case), but in either case you must also accept that you can't get there in a contextless vacuum. No group of human beings will allow themselves to be slaughtered forever without trying to fight back, especially not for a racial-supremacist fascist project. e: I've written Jewish-supremacist but really that's not quite right, the ethnostate is not broadly Jewish-supremacist but instead operating over a definition of what you might call Jewish-whiteness, evident in how poorly the Zionist entity treats eg. African and Asian Jews Pentecoastal Elites fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Oct 30, 2023 |
# ? Oct 30, 2023 15:33 |
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Main Paineframe posted:I'm not really sure what "Yank the chain" is supposed to mean here, because there's no indication that the US did anything coercive besides firmly asking them in private to stop, something they're certainly doing about this whole situation in general. You assume that the communications came back up because the US side pushed harder, but it could very easily be that the Israeli side was just more willing to do so. It could easily be that Israel gauged the international reaction and decided it wasn't worth the trouble. By 'yank the chain' I just meant that the US exerted pressure on Israel to allow communications to be restored, it was in reference to another poster using the phrase a bit before my post. I have to say that I don't find the idea Israel decided the international reaction was too much trouble to be credible; there's been an awful lot more reaction over many other things and the war in general than the comms being down and Israel hasn't flinched. On the other hand I didn't know about the telecom company stuff, my understanding had been that Israel deliberately cut the communications, so that definitely changes any assessment including my own! Appreciate the information on that one
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 15:37 |
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https://x.com/ajplus/status/1718667197847867554?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Deaths from indirect consequences of the siege (disease, starvation, et cetera) really do look set to skyrocket. Wouldn't be surprised if they eventually outstrip violent deaths.
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 15:38 |
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VitalSigns posted:The US support of Israel in the decades leading up to 9/11 went far beyond defending its right to exist. It's also not the only thing the US government did in the Middle East that made people angry, eg supporting the Saudi dictatorship Right, the US Support along with the rest of West has supported Israel way too much but that isn't the point of the conflict. Neither Hamas or Al Qaeda support the existence of Israel. That's the main cause of all of this fighting because they want to destroy it.
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 15:40 |
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Nov 5, 2023 |
# ? Oct 30, 2023 15:42 |
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Darth Walrus posted:https://x.com/ajplus/status/1718667197847867554?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 15:50 |
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I reject the (seeming, to me anyway) implication of your argument that this conflict is one of ancient and maybe intractable racisms, when that is clearly not the case: Jews and Muslims are perfectly capable of living together, and in many cases in share a special solidarity between their communities, especially within Christian-majority areas in Europe and the middle east. I will note that this sort of interethnic/interfaith co-mingling is something that the Zionist entity fights against.
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 15:51 |
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BougieBitch posted:People talk about how there's a conflation of Hamas with Palestinians, but to some degree there's the same issue of part = whole within how people talk about Hamas, and specifically participants of Oct 7. It's not clear to me exactly how many people any given person is referring to when they say "Hamas", and the fact that Israel clearly benefits from tarring all adult Palestinians in Gaza with the same brush means that by their framing it might be close to a million people (all adult Palestinians that could reasonably be framed as combatant), or perhaps more like 400,000 if they restrict it to men from 18-65. In any case, when they say their war aims are to "destroy Hamas", we know they are going to redefine that constantly in whatever way benefits their framing (i.e. when they kill 7000 with missiles they will say that 2-3000 of them were Hamas combatants, and when they eventually have to pull out and declare "mission accomplished" after a few months they will say they achieved the destruction of Hamas because they killed some handful of leaders or destroyed their physical infrastructure or their weapon caches). Long time lurker here just wanting to say this was a great post, made me rethink some positions I've held on this topic. Thank you for writing it.
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 16:09 |
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:I think I'd overstate the case if I said it was ancient. A few hundred years isn't that long. Or call it the early 19th century, with "the nation" really driving the bus at first. Some of these concepts are viciously problematic, and nationalism has caused world wars. Some of them are in-your-face fictional, like races. I doubt we could really tease out very clearly what an "ethnicity" is, but the ethnicities seem to be bottom-line social categories or fictions that are widely accepted. I completely agree that concepts about nationality and ethnicity/race are inherently problematic and can drive action in an ideological sense, especially on the individual level, but I reject that anything like nationalism "caused" a world war: the engine of history is the actual, physical material of the world. Like the world wars -- like heretofore all human conflict -- the genocide of Palestine is motivated by wealth and power, the literal, physical control of the means of production. The "power" that concepts like race have is a phantom; it's epiphenomenal to material power structures. If the Zionist entity were to disappear tomorrow and the Palestinians free to live their lives without fear of genocide, omnipresent racialized violence, theft and destruction of their lives and livelihood, dehumanization and humiliation, etc., the race-based hatreds between Muslims and Jews would also dissolve, over time.
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 16:11 |
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Hamas has released a new hostage video. https://twitter.com/ytirawi/status/1718978646331834715 quote:Benjamin Netanyahu, Hello, we have been in Hamas captivity for 23 days... Yesterday there was a press conference for the families of the prisoners, and we know that there was supposed to be a ceasefire, and you were supposed to release us, you should have released us, and I promised. To release us. However, we are suffering from your political, security and military failure, because of the “failure” that you caused on the 7th of October, because no soldier was in the place and no one came to us, and no one here defended us, and we are innocent and naive citizens, citizens who pay taxes to a state. Israel, we are now in captivity under “no conditions” conditions. You are killing us. Do you want to kill us all? You want the army to kill us. Isn’t it enough that you slaughtered everyone? Isn’t it enough for you that there were Israeli citizens killed? Release us now. Release their citizens and prisoners now. Release us. Release Everyone, we deserve to go back to our families, now now now! socialsecurity posted:So when Ukraine released videos of POWs like this it was decried a warcrime, does this apply to Hamas here? Are you seriously calling 3 civilian women POWs? Of course it's a warcrime, and the Geneva Conventions law about not exhibiting POWs doesn't apply because *they aren't enemy combatants*. Lum_ fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Oct 30, 2023 |
# ? Oct 30, 2023 16:26 |
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So when Ukraine released videos of POWs like this it was decried a warcrime, does this apply to Hamas here?
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 16:30 |
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socialsecurity posted:So when Ukraine released videos of POWs like this it was decried a warcrime, does this apply to Hamas here? As with the situation in Ukraine, if you're focusing on and complaining about the actions of the oppressed, you're supporting the oppressor.
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 16:31 |
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Nov 5, 2023 |
# ? Oct 30, 2023 16:33 |
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Right, the US Support along with the rest of West has supported Israel way too much but that isn't the point of the conflict. Neither Hamas or Al Qaeda support the existence of Israel. That's the main cause of all of this fighting because they want to destroy it. That's an oversimplification. If US policy to the Middle East had been different, there might not have been an Al Qaeda. If Israeli policy toward Palestinians had been different there might not be a Hamas. It's like: you can say the US conflict with ISIS was that ISIS wanted to overthrow existing ME governments and create a Caliphate. True, but ISIS didn't just magically appear one day with megalomaniacal goals from nothing. Short-sighted and reckless actions by the US (invading and destroying Iraq, letting the country go to poo poo) created the conditions that lead to ISIS in the first place. And the genocide the Israeli state is carrying out now will create blowback as well, and the victims of that blowback are also victims of Israeli policy as well as victims of the people who will perpetrate that blowback.
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 16:50 |
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I completely agree that concepts about nationality and ethnicity/race are inherently problematic and can drive action in an ideological sense, especially on the individual level, but I reject that anything like nationalism "caused" a world war: the engine of history is the actual, physical material of the world. Like the world wars -- like heretofore all human conflict -- the genocide of Palestine is motivated by wealth and power, the literal, physical control of the means of production. The "power" that concepts like race have is a phantom; it's epiphenomenal to material power structures. If the Zionist entity were to disappear tomorrow and the Palestinians free to live their lives without fear of genocide, omnipresent racialized violence, theft and destruction of their lives and livelihood, dehumanization and humiliation, etc., the race-based hatreds between Muslims and Jews would also dissolve, over time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz2QisQNCh0 Anti-Semitism too can function as like a warped version of socialism. I wouldn't call it socialist but it holds that Jews are oppressors who are hiding in the mountains hoarding all the gold. So we kill them and take their gold. It's like a monster hunt. Anger about the imagined power of Jewish capital, as well as fears of treason and racial degeneration, made anti-Semitism a convenient banner behind which social and political factions could fall in line. Anti-Semitic feelings that simmer for decades can come boiling to the surface. But one of the benefits of making the social relations around wealth the focus is that you can redistribute the wealth without necessarily taking someone's life. Concerning ideology, one of the gross things I've seen is how Israel is taken by its supporters to be a "Jewish issue," but the comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany end up reproducing the same logic. The people who do that seem highly opportunistic. It's not like Israel doesn't inflict violent collective punishment on people, but the "unity" between these two things -- while existing in a field of tension -- help sustain the other. I remember an image of a man holding up a portrait of a swastika on his phone at a rally in New York, and I'd reckon he was probably doing that to troll the pro-Israel side, like "this is what you are" and then showing them the swastika to call them the new Nazis. Of course this is all over the New York Post and the Jewish press to frighten their readers into thinking anyone who waves a Palestinian flag around are Nazis who want to wipe them out. And that has an effect.
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 16:59 |
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socialsecurity posted:So when Ukraine released videos of POWs like this it was decried a warcrime, does this apply to Hamas here? An armed force taking civilians hostage is a war crime in the first place. From an "international laws of war" perspective, Hamas never should have taken those hostages in the first place, and should immediately release them without any conditions. But by those same laws of war, Israel never should have established the Gaza blockade in the first place, let alone bombed the hell out of Gaza every couple of years since 2008, and even the settlements are illegal under international law. Unfortunately, all sides in the Israel/Palestine conflict have defied the laws of war so frequently and consistently that they don't really hold any meaning there anymore.
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 17:12 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 08:21 |
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:I more or less agree with you. Marx and Engels asserted that the human symbolic order is ultimately a result of the material conditions in which people live, but I'd caution against a square economic reduction in which material power structures are the only determining element and if we just change that then history will just do the work for us. It just happened that they emphasized the economic side at a time when few people were doing that and didn't have the time to give the other element their due. Gramsci tried to re-balance the base/superstructure model, thinking that the order of material production and the order of symbols interacted historically in complex ways, and such thoughts were later extrapolated on by the Frankfurt School. In other words, ideology matters, and while these concepts like "race" and "religion" are ultimately nonsense the social organization they attach themselves to are not. I don't think concepts like race or nation have no power -- they certainly have motivating power, just that they are transient (on the macro scale) and epiphenomenal. I would not call antisemitism "socialist", even though I understand your example, because socialism isn't strictly about wealth distribution. The rise of virulent antisemitism in Europe is an excellent example of the base material conditions creating the, as you note, cultural superstructure: Jews, being a people without a nation and ostracized throughout most of Europe could often only find work in places and fields others refused, one of those fields being banking. As the rise of capitalism exploited and dehumanized more and more of the now-laboring class of Europe, blame for the new system was displaced on to the Jews, whose relationship with banking made them a visible target for a people wholly new to the depredations of capital. This antisemitism persists through to the current day specifically because it reifies the capitalist power structure by creating a false consciousness of shadowy elites organizing some kind of Jewish world order -- antisemitism that the Zionist entity is fully happy to cater to, obvious in how profoundly nasty and stupid their external propaganda is, because it too reifies their positions of power and access to material wealth. I think antisemitism stuck as a mode of racial-worldview-thought (for lack of a better term) because the statelessness of the Jews gave them a permanent outsider status, and is why they're so associated with banking and capital in comparison to the other groups that were also heavily involved with wealth management and distribution in the early stages of capital, the Catholic church especially. In a different world, a Jewish state that existed in some sort of harmony -- or at least homeostasis -- with its neighbors could have, I think, largely dissolved modern antisemitism by exposing the contradictions within antisemitic thought. But, again, antisemitism is useful to the Zionist entity, and so if we have an interest in destroying antisemitism, the dissolution of the apartheid Zionist ethnostate project is of utmost importance.
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# ? Oct 30, 2023 17:25 |