|
zoux posted:Who uses openers with regularity, I know the old heads sports media has been clutching their pearls about it for a few years but it doesn't seem to be that common. Two teams are doing it in the World Series tonight!
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 19:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 23:06 |
|
|
"Opener" here has a definition as broad as "Millennial" in that it really means "anyone who starts and goes less than seven." It's also comparable because it's only something old people get mad about. The rest of us call it a bullpen day.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 19:06
|
|
|
Alfred P. Pseudonym posted:Two teams are doing it in the World Series tonight! Right, but no one will see that. rickiep00h posted:"Opener" here has a definition as broad as "Millennial" in that it really means "anyone who starts and goes less than seven." It's also comparable because it's only something old people get mad about. I don't think teams are building staffs around a bullpen day every four starts, I think it's just really hard to have 4-5 legit big league starters on one team. But I'm sure banning bullpen days will suddenly create a whole bunch of viable starters out of thin air.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 19:06
|
|
|
zoux posted:Right, but no one will see that. MLB wants more Jack Morris style players so it's easier to goose up numbers without using a bunch of balls
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 19:08
|
|
|
to me the "opener" is different than a bullpen game. with an opener, you still have a "bulk guy" who acts as the traditional starter, shooting for ~18-24 batters or 100 pitches, it's just that he comes in (ideally) in the 2nd to face the #4 hitter.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 19:09
|
|
|
I think it's a good idea. If pitchers can't go max effort on every pitch it might put a dent in skyrocketing K rates.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 19:12
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/MLBLife/status/1719399621548519834 Dusty got the only thing better than WS ring more falafel please posted:to me the "opener" is different than a bullpen game. with an opener, you still have a "bulk guy" who acts as the traditional starter, shooting for ~18-24 batters or 100 pitches, it's just that he comes in (ideally) in the 2nd to face the #4 hitter. I don't watch a lot of non-astros games but I've seen that maybe two or three times in the last, oh idk, forever.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 19:15
|
|
|
zoux posted:I don't think teams are building staffs around a bullpen day every four starts Exactly. It's just Manfred tilting at old guard windmills again. The shift wasn't a thing that caused that much of an impact on the game as a whole, but when it happened, people got Very Upset because it looked weird. Same thing with how starting pitching has been trending. Are bullpen games meaningfully impactful to anyone but the team using one to give a starter rest or stretching out the bullpen? Nah. But people sure get mad when Ol Hoss Scherzer only goes out for three innings and sits down for the night. Nolan Ryan wouldn't stand for that! Hall of Famer Jack Morris wouldn't stand for that! John Smoltz thinks curren pitchers are pussies! It's really blatant about how disinterested the league is at the natural evolution of the game from how it was played in the 20th century, and having so many examples of that evolution in the World Series the few years has made it very easy for Manfred to take potshots.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 19:16
|
|
|
I think it really is as simple as MLB wants less virgin sore elbow pitchers and more chad innings eaters. This is for a combo of factors: those types make less in FA (owners happy!) it'll lead to more offense (fans happy!) and there's less likely to be sudden, unexpected pitching changes lasting multiple innings that impact the game (sports betting leeches happy!)
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 19:18
|
|
|
rickiep00h posted:Exactly. It's just Manfred tilting at old guard windmills again. The shift wasn't a thing that caused that much of an impact on the game as a whole, but when it happened, people got Very Upset because it looked weird. I don't blame teams for changing their approaches -- their job is to win baseball games. But just like with the shift, or the pitch clock, I'm ok with the league stepping in and saying that those changes in approach have made the game on the field a less entertaining product, so we're going to disincentivize those strategies. The league's job is to sell baseball. Most relievers are fungible, forgettable guys who throw 97mph 4-seamers and one secondary pitch. They're good one year and terrible the next -- hard to predict, usually no narrative around them, regularly have no history with opposing players, etc. When you could expect that you were going to get 6+ innings out of a starter most games, the pitching matchup was the story of the game. Bullpen games just... don't have anywhere near as compelling of a narrative. I'd definitely rather watch a game where I'm expecting each starter to face the lineup a third time. I understand why teams don't do it! I just think it sucks!
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 19:24
|
|
|
IP/start has been dropping steadily since like 2014, we were only slightly above 5.0 in 2023 alone. Not sure this MATTERS enough to warrant a rule change, but I would imagine that's the reason behind this rumbling This is also going to include openers who are only intended to go 1-2 innings, so the data is gonna be skewed for however many of those there are (not many)
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 19:25
|
|
|
The cat is already out of the bag though. You can limit pitcher roster slots but the optimal strategy is always going to be getting more effort and less innings from every pitcher on the staff. Teams train max effort velocity because it works. This is just going to exacerbate pitcher injury rates. The starting pitcher of yesteryear is already dead and buried, and it wasn’t an abrupt change. Once again I have a GRAPHS for this:  Yes there’s been an acceleration of the trend in the last 5-8 years but it’s also a trend that’s been pretty steady for the entirety of the live ball era. I made this graph 3 years ago, this year’s number was 5.14 IP per start. Edit: nice plot Poque but I do think the full history provides relevant context here
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 19:28
|
|
|
bawfuls posted:Edit: nice plot Poque but I do think the full history provides relevant context here Fangraphs didn't go beyond 2000 for those aggregate stats  Cackling at the early seasons when the average was above 9. It's like Wilt Chamberlain averaging over 48 minutes per game in 1961-62.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 19:33
|
|
|
Yeah I had to pull the earlier data from Baseball Reference No one wants to work anymore!
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 19:35
|
|
|
I just wish the third time tax wasn't a real thing that exists
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 19:35
|
|
|
Red posted:Thanks for re-affirming Jeff Kent is a gigantic piece of poo poo He might be a piece of poo poo for other reasons but that was a funny video.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 19:35
|
|
|
It does suck that every SP now basically has guaranteed TJ at some point. Gerrit Cole is on schedule to tear his UCL in the next coupla seasons. Alcantara will probably need a whole arm replacement.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 19:36
|
|
|
Poque posted:IP/start has been dropping steadily since like 2014, we were only slightly above 5.0 in 2023 alone. It's been dropping steadily since 1876, with only a couple brief upticks.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 19:55
|
|
|
Nissin Cup Nudist posted:I just wish the third time tax wasn't a real thing that exists League wide OPS by times facing opponent in 1960: 1st - .676 2nd - .707 3rd - .742
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 19:55
|
|
|
bawfuls posted:The cat is already out of the bag though. You can limit pitcher roster slots but the optimal strategy is always going to be getting more effort and less innings from every pitcher on the staff. Yeah. That's why if you want K rates to go down the only really effective thing to do from the pitching side of the equation is limit the number of available pitchers. Take it down to 11 and teams will have no choice but to retreat from the Every Pitch Max Effort strategy. Of course you would also need a counterbalancing nerf to hitting and especially power hitting if you don't want 30 different guys hitting 85 home runs
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 19:58
|
|
|
The only thing that has proven to reduce K rates league wide on a long term basis is shrinking the strike zone. Don’t make me post that other graph again Deaden the ball simultaneously to prevent a HR spike
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 20:02
|
|
|
That's because it's the only serious thing that's ever been tried. That and lowering the mound. But yes I should have been more specific about if you want to lower K rates without just trading them for more walks and home runs
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 20:03
|
|
|
Shrinking the zone and lowering the mound did not noticeably impact walk rates last time they did it The rate of balls in play went up slightly and stayed flat for a solid decade 
bawfuls fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Oct 31, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 20:04
|
|
|
Move the mound back 6 inches
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 20:06
|
|
|
zoux posted:It does suck that every SP now basically has guaranteed TJ at some point. Gerrit Cole is on schedule to tear his UCL in the next coupla seasons. Alcantara will probably need a whole arm replacement. Is that all you want for Christmas?
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 20:12
|
|
|
No I like Gerrit Cole and don't like to see pitcher injuries. But he's a hard throwing guy with a wipeout slider so don't tell me you don't worry that he's gonna need TJ at some point.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 20:13
|
|
|
bawfuls posted:
Jesus, did the Royals 2015 strategy of winning the World Series with a strong bullpen destroy starting pitching? Sure seems like the line takes a dramatic dive after 2015. Sorry about that, traditionalists, but Flags Fly Forever. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 20:14
|
|
|
Everyone just learned that pitchers get clobbered 3rd time through the order and that's why they don't leave starters in longer.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 20:17
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/awfulannouncing/status/1719434060991221841 That's cool. The Rockets and the Astros banded together to buyout their ATT SW broadcaster and relaunch as "Space City Sports", I don't know if other cities/teams did that as well, but the article here is referring to teams who don't have a local broadcast home right now quote:Manfred’s quote about MLB broadcasting games for “up to 16 teams” may seem arbitrary, but the math works out. Two teams, the Diamondbacks and Padres, were dropped by the Diamond Sports Group and MLB aired their games in 2023. Another 12 teams (including the Minnesota Twins, whose carriage deal with Diamond ended after the 2023 season) had carriage deals with Diamond in 2023. Two more teams, the Pirates and Rockies, aired their games on AT&T SportsNet RSNs in 2023, which shut down after the season.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 20:25
|
|
|
Niwrad posted:Everyone just learned that pitchers get clobbered 3rd time through the order and that's why they don't leave starters in longer. But this also trickles down to player development too. Starting pitchers in the minors don’t get to see a lineup a third time through much anymore.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 20:31
|
|
|
zoux posted:https://twitter.com/awfulannouncing/status/1719434060991221841 That's pretty cool. I really hope this RSN poo poo is solved by next season because I flat out refuse to give Sinclair any of my money.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 20:33
|
|
|
bawfuls posted:yeah it’s this, just teams en mass embracing the reality of the game kind of abruptly Yeah, I think a lot of it is you got old school guys like JV and Max who want to pitch 12 innings every outing and believe they can get anyone out in any inning, and you have to accommodate guys like that. Younger guys, I think, know what time it is, so to speak, with regards to how much they get to pitch. Obviously the manager for my team last year is famous for letting starters pitch themselves into early retirement, so I can only go off of what I saw, but even Dusty was going to get some of the younger guys in the fourth and fifth. Occassionally. I mean, I grew up out of market so I watched tons of Braves baseball on TBS in the 90s which gave me an affinity for CGSO pitchers and dominant starters and so I love power pitchers dominating for nine innings but I can see that it's bad for pitchers' careers on the whole and bad for team W/L totals zoux fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Oct 31, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 20:36
|
|
|
zoux posted:Yeah, I think a lot of it is you got old school guys like JV and Max who want to pitch 12 innings every outing and believe they can get anyone out in any inning, and you have to accommodate guys like that. Younger guys, I think, know what time it is, so to speak, with regards to how much they get to pitch. Obviously the manager for my team last year is famous for letting starters pitch themselves into early retirement, so I can only go off of what I saw, but even Dusty was going to get some of the younger guys in the fourth and fifth. Occassionally. Baseball has always had problems when baseball changes to be still baseball but slightly different and this feels like more the same. Also, I have no idea what other people's opinions on this are, but watching MLB games online legally, especially if you're wanting to just follow your team is needlessly dumb and bad.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 20:55
|
|
|
It is, but I couldn't exactly pirate streams of Astros games in 1994. I'm of the opinion that I'm willing to pay a premium in order to get a solid, good resolution broadcast and we were doing that through FUBO, until they hiked the price $30 a month (to $100!) and we were like nah. We tried the illegal streams thing of a bit but it was inconsistent. Luckily, my roommate's mom gets DirecTV, which had ATT Southwest, so we've been watching via her login. I don't know how it's going to work with the new Houston sports channel.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 21:00
|
|
|
zoux posted:It is, but I couldn't exactly pirate streams of Astros games in 1994. Yeah that was more a follow on thought from the tweet earlier than commentary on you suffering in purgatory in the 90s. Just another aspect of refusing to get with the times kinda thing, although poo poo how far back do you gotta get for good streaming still being a coming soon. Space City Sports will be tied to cable packages as far as I saw.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 21:09
|
|
|
zoux posted:That's cool. The Rockets and the Astros banded together to buyout their ATT SW broadcaster and relaunch as "Space City Sports", I don't know if other cities/teams did that as well, but the article here is referring to teams who don't have a local broadcast home right now Marquee (Cubs broadcast channel) launched a monthly $20 subscription for streaming Cubs games (only valid for Chicago residents I believe) and I subscribed this year. Yeah it's kind of ridiculous to pay $20 a month just to watch the Cubs miss the playoffs but I get MLB.tv free thru my partners T-Mobile plan these days so screw it, I can unsubscribe during the offseason. I think at one point I calculated how much adding cable TV to get Marquee would cost and it was like an extra $100+ per month to my internet bill, insane.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 21:43
|
|
|
Popete posted:Marquee (Cubs broadcast channel) launched a monthly $20 subscription for streaming Cubs games (only valid for Chicago residents I believe) and I subscribed this year. I did the same thing. Thankfully the Cubs and Sky both crapped out in September, so no reason to keep the subscription around until March at the earliest.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 21:46
|
|
|
Popete posted:Marquee (Cubs broadcast channel) launched a monthly $20 subscription for streaming Cubs games (only valid for Chicago residents I believe) and I subscribed this year. Pretty much sums up why the RSN model is eating collossal poo poo right about now.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 21:49
|
|
|
When did WGN stop broadcasting Cubs games
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 21:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 23:06 |
|
|
zoux posted:When did WGN stop broadcasting Cubs games 2020, the Cubs had been making noise for some time about launching their own RSN because they wanted that sweet YES Network/SportsNet LA money. So of course in the cubsiest fashion possible they launched right in time for the pandemic shortened season and then the subsequent RSN crash.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2023 21:51
|
|