USCE 2023: Please let them shove a camera up your butt

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Misunderstood: Jan 19, 2023; by Fluffdaddy

the_steve posted:

I wonder if we'll get a new take on the "For every voter we lose to X, we'll gain 2 from Y" logic that worked so well in Hillary's favor.

Just because you don�t want to believe that there would be a political cost for shutting down the war machine doesn�t mean there wouldn�t be. Israel is really popular among older people, who vote at a higher rate. 60% of Americans approve of Israeli air strikes. I do not blame Arab voters for taking this stand right now, but they are relatively few in number and lovely Americans who reflexively root for the whiter team are far, far, far more common, and they don�t all vote GOP. (Not to mention that even absent white supremacist attitudes, an ignorant person could easily be brainwashed by US propaganda to think Israel is just.)

I am really worried that stopping Israel can only be done at this point through use of US force against the IDF, because Israel seems too far gone to stop just because of US threats to withdraw support (and they absolutely do not need our $symbol in aid right now to kill everybody.) Bibi is desperate to improve his popularity and nothing is more popular in Israel right now than genocide. Biden going out and demanding a ceasefire, or even threatening to pull the funding package, is probably not going to cut it.

Misunderstood fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Oct 31, 2023

# ? Oct 31, 2023 22:20

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mannerup fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Nov 5, 2023

# ? Oct 31, 2023 22:21

Misunderstood: Jan 19, 2023; by Fluffdaddy

To add onto my last post I want to say that the potential political fallout of doing the right thing gets smaller every day as it becomes more and more obvious that Israel is the villain here, and that Biden could accelerate that recognition by saying what he thinks, which is that this is bullshit and Israel should stop immediately.

Some reporting from the Times about the steps Biden is taking to calm things down, in the absence of a political will to get appropriately aggressive.

I am grateful to those in the state department and at organizations like AAI to pressure Biden to move along to the stage where he officially opposes and condemns Israeli atrocity.

NYT posted:

Biden�s Support for Israel Now Comes with Words of Warning

Three days after Hamas terrorists slaughtered more than 1,400 people, President Biden offered Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu support in the wake of the vow by Israel�s leader to �avenge this black day� and to turn Hamas hide-outs �into a ruin� from the air and on the ground.

�I told him if the United States experienced what Israel is experiencing, our response would be swift, decisive and overwhelming,� Mr. Biden recalled saying during a call between the two leaders on Oct. 10.

But the president�s message, in which he emphatically joined the mourning that was sweeping through Israel, has shifted dramatically over the past three weeks. While he continues to declare unambiguous support for Israel, Mr. Biden and his top military and diplomatic officials have become more critical of Israel�s response to the terrorist attacks and the unfolding humanitarian crisis.

The president and his senior aides still cling to the hope that the new war between Israel and Hamas might eventually give way to a resumption of talks about normalization of relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia, and could even offer some leverage for a return to negotiations over a two-state solution in which Israel and Palestine exist side by side. Mr. Netanyahu has long resisted such a move.

�Though it may seem a little bit more illusory now, we still believe it�s the right thing to do for the region, for the world, certainly for the Palestinian people,� John F. Kirby, a spokesman for the National Security Council, said on Monday.

But in the short run, American officials have grown more strident in reminding the Israelis that even if Hamas terrorists are deliberately intermingling with civilians, operations must be tailored to avoid nonmilitary casualties. Last week, Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken said at the United Nations that �humanitarian pauses must be considered,� a move that Israel has rejected.

�While Israel has the right � indeed, the obligation � to defend itself, the way it does so matters,� Mr. Blinken said, adding that �it means food, water, medicine and other essential humanitarian assistance must be able to flow into Gaza and to the people who need them.�

On Sunday, just a day after Israeli military leaders said Hamas terrorists were using a hospital in Gaza as a command center, Jake Sullivan, the president�s national security adviser, was more blunt. Mr. Sullivan said on CBS�s �Face the Nation� that Hamas�s use of civilians as human shields �creates an added burden for the Israeli Defense Forces.�

He added, �This is something that we talk about with the Israelis on a daily basis.� He then noted that hospitals were not legitimate military targets just as Israel was warning that another major hospital in Gaza had to be emptied out before the next round of bombing.

Administration officials said the shift in tone and substance was the result of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, where the health ministry says more than 8,000 people have been killed, provoking outrage in the United States and around the world.

The change has occurred against the backdrop of global denunciations of Israel�s actions and an explosion of divisive protests in the United States. The campus police at Cornell University, in Ithaca, N.Y., were guarding the university�s Center for Jewish Living on Sunday after online posts threatened violence against Jewish students, according to a statement by Cornell�s president, Martha E. Pollack.

Mr. Biden �is acutely aware of not only how polarized our country is, but how polarized the world is,� said Timothy Naftali, a historian and faculty scholar at the Institute of Global Politics at Columbia University. �That is the line he�s trying, I think, to follow, and it�s difficult in a polarized world, because it�s a very logical approach in a moment that provokes emotionalism.�

Mr. Biden has long been an ardent defender of Israel and in the past several weeks has repeatedly referred to meeting former Prime Minister Golda Meir when he was a first-year senator in 1973. But the president has also been a fierce critic of Mr. Netanyahu�s government, which he has called the most extreme in the country�s 75-year history.

In the first days after the Hamas attacks, Mr. Biden drew praise for his unreserved support for Israel, describing the wave of killings as �an act of sheer evil� and vowing to ensure that Israelis �have what they need to respond� to the worst attack on Jews since the Holocaust. Mr. Biden has sent to Congress a request for $14.5 billion in military aid for Israel.

But as Israel began pounding Gaza from the air in preparation for a ground invasion that began in earnest over the weekend, Mr. Biden settled into a pattern of delivering increasingly critical messages to the Israelis � in private first, and then in public.

The United States has kept a rotating list of senior officials in front of Mr. Netanyahu � each being careful not to tell the Israelis what to do, but to ask a series of questions intended to communicate the administration�s concern. How do you handle the tunnels in Gaza? If you are successful, who administers Gaza? Have you thought through how public opinion will turn if civilian casualties mount, or whether the crisis in Gaza might draw in Hezbollah or other militias?

Mr. Blinken has visited Israel three times. Defense Secretary Lloyd J. Austin III met with his counterparts there, along with Gen. Michael E. Kurilla, the commander of Central Command, and then Rishi Sunak, the British prime minister. A European official said their visits were not coordinated with the United States but that everyone had the same idea that it would be hard to start a ground invasion while senior officials were in the waiting room.

On Oct. 15, eight days after the attacks, Mr. Blinken had a frank call with Mr. Biden after flying out of Cairo, where America�s top diplomat had met with the president of Egypt. Mr. Blinken�s trip across the Middle East, in which Egypt was the last stop among Israel and six Arab nations, gave the administration the first stark glimpse of the growing opposition in the Arab world.

Few Arab nations issued statements of support for Israel at the time of the Hamas attacks on Oct. 7. But administration officials had initially believed they could get more backing for the Jewish state from those governments and from other countries around the world, given the level of atrocities Hamas committed against Israelis.

Then Mr. Blinken briefed Mr. Biden daily during his travels, conveying to the president the deep anxieties he was hearing. Mr. Biden told Mr. Blinken during the Oct. 15 call to return to Israel to try to persuade the leaders there to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza, even though Israeli leaders appeared ready to start their ground invasion, U.S. officials said.

It became evident to U.S. officials that Israeli leaders believed mass civilian casualties were an acceptable price in the military campaign. In private conversations with American counterparts, Israeli officials referred to how the United States and other allied powers resorted to devastating bombings in Germany and Japan during World War II � including the dropping of the two atomic warheads in Hiroshima and Nagasaki � to try to defeat those countries.

Publicly, Mr. Biden�s language began to shift.

On Oct. 14, at an event in Philadelphia, Mr. Biden emphasized that �the overwhelming majority of Palestinians had nothing to do with Hamas and Hamas�s appalling attacks, and they�re suffering as a result as well.�

Four days later, during a brief visit to Israel, Mr. Biden pushed Mr. Netanyahu and his war cabinet to stop bombing the area of the Rafah gate between Gaza and Egypt to allow aid to flow in. Eventually, Mr. Biden announced that 20 aid vehicles, a tiny fraction of what was needed, would be allowed in.

�I was very blunt with the Israelis,� Mr. Biden told reporters aboard Air Force One as they traveled back from Israel. �Israel has been badly victimized. But, you know, the truth is that if they have an opportunity to relieve suffering of people who have nowhere to go, that is what they should do.�

He said that if Israel did not follow that advice, �they�ll be held accountable in ways that may be unfair,� but he added: �If you have an opportunity to alleviate the pain, you should do it, period. And if you don�t, you�re going to lose credibility worldwide.�

After Mr. Biden�s trip, the reservations inside the U.S. government about a ground invasion only grew. Israeli leaders did not appear to have an endgame for the invasion, American officials said. And Mr. Netanyahu and his war cabinet had no plans for what to do with Gaza once Israeli troops went in and began occupying, at least temporarily, some or all of it.

In late October, Mr. Austin advised Israeli officials to hold off on the ground invasion. He argued that both the Americans and the Israelis needed more time for hostage negotiations, to get more humanitarian aid into Gaza, to do better war planning and to strengthen defenses around U.S. troops in the region, who were coming under increasing attack from Iran-backed militias in Iraq and Syria.

In some ways, the Americans were pushing on an open door. They had detected signs that Mr. Netanyahu was reluctant to proceed with a ground invasion.

U.S. officials have also realized that there is virtually no way for them to win over more diplomatic support for Israel. If anything, countries around the world, especially developing nations, are moving the other way as the Palestinian death toll grows. Even European allies of the United States are divided on Israel�s war. U.S. officials say they realize that what they were able to do with Ukraine � building a coalition of international support � will be impossible to do with Israel.

�The grievances of the Palestinian people cannot justify the appalling attacks by Hamas. And those appalling attacks cannot justify the collective punishment of the Palestinian people,� Ant�nio Guterres, the secretary general of the United Nations, said last Tuesday, drawing calls for his resignation by Israel�s ambassador.

Saudi officials have warned top American officials and lawmakers in recent meetings and calls that a ground invasion by Israel could be catastrophic for the region.

Many governments around the world have voiced the need for an immediate cease-fire. A growing number of U.S. lawmakers, including ones who in statements have emphasized their Jewish American backgrounds, say Israel should commit to �humanitarian pauses� to address the crisis in Gaza.

For Mr. Biden, the tightrope walk continues.

On Sunday, Mr. Sullivan signaled that the United States would continue to press Israel, publicly and privately, for restraint.

�Those conversations happen multiple times a day. They happen between the president and the prime minister,� he said.

�Sitting here in public,� Mr. Sullivan added, �I will just say that the United States is going to make its principles and propositions absolutely clear, including the sanctity of innocent human life. And then, we will continue to provide our advice to Israel in private.�

Misunderstood fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Oct 31, 2023

# ? Oct 31, 2023 22:36

A big flaming stink: Apr 26, 2010

Misunderstood posted:

Just because you don�t want to believe that there would be a political cost for shutting down the war machine doesn�t mean there wouldn�t be. Israel is really popular among older people, who vote at a higher rate. 60% of Americans approve of Israeli air strikes. I do not blame Arab voters for taking this stand right now, but they are relatively few in number and lovely Americans who reflexively root for the whiter team are far, far, far more common, and they don�t all vote GOP. (Not to mention that even absent white supremacist attitudes, an ignorant person could easily be brainwashed by US propaganda to think Israel is just.)

I am really worried that stopping Israel can only be done at this point through use of US force against the IDF, because Israel seems too far gone to stop just because of US threats to withdraw support (and they absolutely do not need our $symbol in aid right now to kill everybody.) Bibi is desperate to improve his popularity and nothing is more popular in Israel right now than genocide. Biden going out and demanding a ceasefire, or even threatening to pull the funding package, is probably not going to cut it.

the reason that the polling is so alarming is that arab americans are a big part of michigan and georgia's voting population, and there isnt a path to 270 without those states for biden

# ? Oct 31, 2023 22:38

Misunderstood: Jan 19, 2023; by Fluffdaddy

A big flaming stink posted:

the reason that the polling is so alarming is that arab americans are a big part of michigan and georgia's voting population, and there isnt a path to 270 without those states for biden

He won 306 electoral votes and those two states together are 32, so he can win without them. But I know that�s not your main point and yes, of course it�s a concern. AZ would tip you at that point, or NV and the weird Nebraska district. (269-269, oh boy�)

I really doubt Biden is going to lose 75% of his Arab support while running against Donald Trump but it is clear he has lost many, at least absent a prompt change of course (and for many it�s too late already.)

Misunderstood fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Oct 31, 2023

# ? Oct 31, 2023 22:41

A big flaming stink: Apr 26, 2010

Misunderstood posted:

He won 306 electoral votes and those two states together are 32, so he can win without them. But I know that�s not your main point and yes, of course it�s a concern.

I really doubt Biden is going to lose 75% of his Arab support while running against Donald Trump but it is clear he has lost many, at least absent a prompt change of course (and for many it�s too late already.)

he's lost 11% approval amongst dems this month alone! This isnt just a morally horrific stance, its a pragmatically braindead one!

you cant threaten people with trump to get them to turn out for biden when they are identical in policy about a loving genocide! its easier to not bother to go voting!

e: vvvvv i know you're just bringing up a possible counterexample but holy poo poo is that map peak "hillary clinton in october" energy

A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Oct 31, 2023

# ? Oct 31, 2023 22:44

Mooseontheloose: May 13, 2003

A big flaming stink posted:

the reason that the polling is so alarming is that arab americans are a big part of michigan and georgia's voting population, and there isnt a path to 270 without those states for biden

Not strictly true.

# ? Oct 31, 2023 22:45

Bodyholes: Jun 30, 2005

Bar Ran Dun posted:

My sister is a high school teacher in Florida. She has a tran students and if she uses their preferred pronouns or the name they want to be called she will be fired. So she avoids names for them entirely and uses non gender ways to greet them.

The school I went to is famous for the �curly hair� valedictorian speech. If you haven�t seen it it�s worth a watch.

I need you to know that this stuff is incredibly present in anyone�s life (trans or not) in a red state right now. You either know that or you don�t. If you don�t you are merely naive. If you are merely naive you should be listening to the things real people are telling is happening. If you are not naive and you do know these things are happening and are making these arguments anyway, you need to know you are being a fascist.

You can tell whenever someone's never lived in a red state and had MAGA assholes in every position of power over them.

A big flaming stink posted:

the reason that the polling is so alarming is that arab americans are a big part of michigan and georgia's voting population, and there isnt a path to 270 without those states for biden

NC exists but I almost feel like dems are actively trying to lose this state at this point.

# ? Oct 31, 2023 22:47

Misunderstood: Jan 19, 2023; by Fluffdaddy

A big flaming stink posted:

he's lost 11% approval amongst dems this month alone!

If he had come out forcefully against Israel �prematurely� (in the eyes of the electorate) it would�ve gone down more. Sometimes you really are damned if you do and damned if you don�t. (Also be careful about overconfidence in one poll result - there�s been a hit but we can�t say it�s �11 points� with any confidence. It could be 5 [or 15!])

It�s not enough to tip me into �disapprove� personally, because I understand his dilemma and his concern for civilians seems genuine, but the unwillingness to say the truth and enforce justice is certainly the most I�ve disapproved of any action Biden has taken in office.

I don�t know if his political calculus is correct and I am increasingly doubtful it is. But it is not wrong to consider the political implications because Biden losing in 2024 would remove any checks on Israel completely. If you save people in 2023, you don�t want them to be doomed in 2025. And there is a difference in how far Biden and Trump are willing to let them go.

But geez, Israel was winning �Body Count� in this war, by what, day two? Day three? It�s been three weeks now. It�s well past time to at least attempt an argument that they have already done too much and they must stop. I would guess that the president is carefully observing public reaction to the few Democrats who have been willing to call for a ceasefire.

Misunderstood fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Oct 31, 2023

# ? Oct 31, 2023 22:48

BougieBitch: Oct 2, 2013; Basic as hell

volts5000 posted:

Maybe I'm missing something here, but does impotent, hollow, meaningless harumph-ing make any difference in the grand scheme of things if the immediate outcome is the same?

Politicians have power other than passing bills. I think it's pretty reasonable, in particular, to note that city and state officials ONLY affect international issues in ways other than passing bills - having a politician make a speech at your march is a really good way to get media focused on you, and if you want people to send money to the Red Crescent then having a politician signal boost or contact their donor network will make it a lot easier to hit targets.

I don't really think that would undo the harm that Trump would have done by just cutting all foreign aid from the budget, but it's not nothing

# ? Oct 31, 2023 22:56

GhostofJohnMuir: Aug 14, 2014; anime is not good

Gyges posted:

Pretty much all the unions this year have been clear that part of their strategy is to win big enough that they can use that to expand their membership. UAW is gunning for more auto manufacturers, and The Teamsters were very vocal that after they beat UPS they were coming for Amazon.

on that note, the rumor is that toyota has immediately announced a wage hike at its non-union american plants

quote:

Labor Notes received a message from a Toyota worker in Alabama the next day, saying management had called an emergency meeting. Toyota�clearly running scared�was raising top pay to $32, he said, and shortening the time to get there from eight years to four. Another worker at a Toyota plant in Kentucky said the company was boosting wages and slashing the progression to top rate in half there, too. The new top rate will increase to $2.94 to $34.80 for production workers and $3.70 to $43.20 for skilled trades.

i have to hope that if non-unionized shops are receiving immediate knock-on benefits from strikes at different companies, the workers there have to be wondering what they might get if they actually applied direct pressure

# ? Oct 31, 2023 23:03

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

A big flaming stink posted:

he's lost 11% approval amongst dems this month alone! This isnt just a morally horrific stance, its a pragmatically braindead one!

you cant threaten people with trump to get them to turn out for biden when they are identical in policy about a loving genocide! its easier to not bother to go voting!

e: vvvvv i know you're just bringing up a possible counterexample but holy poo poo is that map peak "hillary clinton in october" energy

As someone else pointed out, there�s no use in obsessing over voting numbers at this point. The election is a full year away

# ? Oct 31, 2023 23:09

Fork of Unknown Origins: Oct 21, 2005; Gotta Herd On?

Kalit posted:

As someone else pointed out, there�s no use in obsessing over voting numbers at this point. The election is a full year away

That�s true, but they still seem to be indicating a disconnect at some level between Democratic voters� expectations and what they perceive to be happening. The time to address that is now, although if I had great answers on how to do that I would probably be in a very different career path than I am.

# ? Oct 31, 2023 23:23

Trazz: Jun 11, 2008

I know it's easy to doomsay over the polls and the approval rating and such, but the GOP is absolutely going to get trounced in the next election because they have only gotten crazier in the last 4 years
If Trump is the GOP candidate then they lose
If he's not the candidate then they lose harder

# ? Oct 31, 2023 23:26

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

I'll try and see if I can prise out a breakdown of likely reasons in the polling later. "Democrats are really mad about Israel being bad" is, believe it or not, the good scenario. Lose-lose for Biden though it may be.

because the other one is that they're supportive of Israel and annoyed for other reasons

# ? Oct 31, 2023 23:27

koolkal: Oct 21, 2008; this thread maybe doesnt have room for 2 green xbox one avs

There's a spectrum of positions between "no red lines for Israel" and "Israel must be eliminated".

Biden has chosen to take an extreme position but that doesn't mean his alternative is another extreme and it's silly to think that anything less than "reduce Palestine to rubble" will cause him to immediately lose all Jewish American support. His current loss of support is largely due to how extreme his position is, not just because he is simply supporting Israel.

# ? Nov 1, 2023 00:41

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Trazz posted:

I know it's easy to doomsay over the polls and the approval rating and such, but the GOP is absolutely going to get trounced in the next election because they have only gotten crazier in the last 4 years
If Trump is the GOP candidate then they lose
If he's not the candidate then they lose harder

I mean, I do think the Republicans still have a major uphill battle to climb in a year, but "Of course the GOP is going to lose they're acting like lunatics" didn't go great in 2016

# ? Nov 1, 2023 00:46

Misunderstood: Jan 19, 2023; by Fluffdaddy

koolkal posted:

There's a spectrum of positions between "no red lines for Israel" and "Israel must be eliminated".

Biden has chosen to take an extreme position but that doesn't mean his alternative is another extreme and it's silly to think that anything less than "reduce Palestine to rubble" will cause him to immediately lose all Jewish American support. His current loss of support is largely due to how extreme his position is, not just because he is simply supporting Israel.

His position is not considered "extreme" at all by the electorate, unfortunately. There are a shocking number of people who somehow consider anything but uncompromising, blank-check support for Israel "extreme." At least in the short term, there was no winning for Biden.

His calculus was that putting his arm around Israel while whispering in their ear to chill the gently caress out was the way to go. But the problem with that - well, besides the fact that it might very well be wrong, at great human cost - the political problem with that is, when you're keeping your criticism on the DL to avoid pissing off pro-Israel voters... you're also keeping your criticism on the DL and making yourself look like you fully support the genocide to pro-justice voters.

I am hopeful that Biden has red lines - although I feel like the red lines are shifting around based on public opinion within and without the Democratic party. And I am definitely afraid they are still pretty far off, when we should already be past them. I do not doubt for a second that he wants this war to end immediately, all his reported private actions are consistent with wanting the war to end immediately, and anybody interpreting these events as Joe Biden being gleeful about the deaths and starvation and collective exile of brown people is not understanding the situation. It is his sincere belief that calling for a ceasefire would not deter Israel, and bear in mind that he is the one who is in communication with their leaders. They're telling him they won't stop, and he doesn't think they're bluffing.

If softening his support for Israel causes domestic political problems, one can only imagine what putting the US military between them and Gaza would do, and alarmingly it may be the only way to stop them. Netanyahu is a crazy motherfucker. I mean, he pretty much intentionally engineered this entire situation by intentionally empowering and provoking Hamas. I don't doubt he was positively rapturous on October 7 for finally having an "excuse" to annex all that sweet, sweet Mediterranean coastline. It is irrational for him to alienate the US, but he will do it if it means he can kill his enemies. I believe that unlike our current president, Netanyahu is a man who greets the death of "the other" with glee, and how do you stop someone like that without, you know... stopping them?

This poo poo sucks for Biden politically, and it sucks for him morally, and based on actions like pulling out of Afghanistan and massively scaling back drone operations from Obama and Trump, he really does seem like a person who prefers innocent people not die, prefers the US not be responsible, and is somewhat less blas� about it than any recent president. His rhetorical support for Israel has been consistently softening as the war has gone on, and he has spent more time talking about the humanitarian crisis. He wants it to end, but he is not, and can't be, in total control of the situation, and how to end things is not clear to anybody.

You could theoretically defend his strategy, considering that perhaps that he's privately wearing Israel down in a way that has not shown up in their statements to the press, but Biden is often patient to a fault with his political strategies. With the scale of death we are seeing right now it is morally imperative that he rush a little bit.

# ? Nov 1, 2023 01:10

Killer robot: Sep 6, 2010; I was having the most wonderful dream. I think you were in it!; Pillbug

Ms Adequate posted:

I mean, I do think the Republicans still have a major uphill battle to climb in a year, but "Of course the GOP is going to lose they're acting like lunatics" didn't go great in 2016

In 2016 Trump won on the back of an electorate thinking he would be more moderate than Clinton, while Republicans lost seats in both houses of Congress.

# ? Nov 1, 2023 01:10

socialsecurity: Aug 30, 2003

Killer robot posted:

In 2016 Trump won on the back of an electorate thinking he would be more moderate than Clinton, while Republicans lost seats in both houses of Congress.

I don't believe this to be true at all, that people thinking Trump was moderate is what caused him to win.

# ? Nov 1, 2023 01:15

Trazz: Jun 11, 2008

Ms Adequate posted:

I mean, I do think the Republicans still have a major uphill battle to climb in a year, but "Of course the GOP is going to lose they're acting like lunatics" didn't go great in 2016

Yeah they still had to cheat to win that one though
Plus they're going to run the exact same person that lost last time(or else it'll be Desantis and they lose harder)

# ? Nov 1, 2023 01:18

BougieBitch: Oct 2, 2013; Basic as hell

Let's be clear here, there are many more extreme positions than what Biden has decided - he could declare war against the Iran-Hezbollah-Hamas axis of evil and deploy US troops, or cut off aid like what was threatened immediately after Oct 7 by the EU.

He's definitely got a trash-tier opinion, but on a scale of -10 to 10 where -10 is in the tank for Hamas and 10 is in the tank for Bibi, Biden seems to be at probably a 5 or 6. The average person is probably at -2 or -3 right now and the average SA poster is probably -6 or -7. It feels more extreme because basically no countries are past Biden on policy this time around because it is so cut-and-dry that everyone went from sympathizing with Israel on October 7th to denouncing them in just a couple days except for sticky Joe Biden who has taken weeks to move down one notch.

# ? Nov 1, 2023 01:20

Killer robot: Sep 6, 2010; I was having the most wonderful dream. I think you were in it!; Pillbug

socialsecurity posted:

I don't believe this to be true at all, that people thinking Trump was moderate is what caused him to win.

It wasn't even just something that came out of post-election polling, Trump being viewed as dramatically more moderate than any Republican nominee in decades was being called out by pollsters before the election, and he was running against someone who, if you weren't in very online lefty circles, had been branded for 25 years by the right as not a liberal but the Liberal.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/196064/trump-seen-less-conservative-prior-gop-candidates.aspx

Even then it was only possible because Trump had no real record and was shameless enough to promise everything to everyone including promising that he had a health care plan and would do lots of things that are anathema to regular Republican candidates.

# ? Nov 1, 2023 01:29

Gyges: Aug 4, 2004; NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK

socialsecurity posted:

I don't believe this to be true at all, that people thinking Trump was moderate is what caused him to win.

Trump is the only guy to successfully approximate the Blank Slate by filling the board with wild nonsense and contradictory statements.

Edit:

Killer robot posted:

Even then it was only possible because Trump had no real record and was shameless enough to promise everything to everyone including promising that he had a health care plan and would do lots of things that are anathema to regular Republican candidates.

Another large part was that since he was the first national guy to really throw away the dog whistle and take up the megaphone, large numbers of people thought he was just playing politics and didn't mean it. Which was a big part of how Republicans managed to do so well before their crazy dogs caught the car. Lots of people didn't believe anybody was actually going to gut medicare, laugh at human suffering, and piss on Roe v Wade. They thought it was all political theater, which made them feel safe voting for the guys "pretending" to be psychopaths.

Gyges fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Nov 1, 2023

# ? Nov 1, 2023 01:30

Misunderstood: Jan 19, 2023; by Fluffdaddy

Anybody with the slightest awareness of authoritarian thinking and how one idea leads to another could easily tell that "build the wall, ban the muslims, beat up the criminals, execute the Central Park Five, look how rich I am" guy was right wing as poo poo, but he did pay a lot of lip service to implementing liberal policy. (Given his unique mental profile he might have even believed it when he said it.)

I think a way that Trump kind of fooled everybody, including those who loathed him, was that he really did give an impression that he was going to operate outside the normal Republican policy agenda, or at least that any overlap with it would be at his own discretion. But instead he just wound up doing whatever Ryan and McConnell told him to, because coming up with his own ideas, or even paying somebody to do it, would've been hard, and he's lazy as poo poo.

# ? Nov 1, 2023 01:32

Gumball Gumption: Jan 7, 2012

socialsecurity posted:

I don't believe this to be true at all, that people thinking Trump was moderate is what caused him to win.

Hillary is a far left loony liberal in reputation and Trump was a big blank space poorly people could project onto. It's very believable. I can absolutely see how "low info voters" still saw him as a NY liberal who ran R because he's a business guy. (Trump voice)For the taxes

# ? Nov 1, 2023 01:40

Mid-Life Crisis: Jun 13, 2023; by Fluffdaddy

Misunderstood posted:

Anybody with the slightest awareness of authoritarian thinking and how one idea leads to another could easily tell that "build the wall, ban the muslims, beat up the criminals, execute the Central Park Five, look how rich I am" guy was right wing as poo poo, but he did pay a lot of lip service to implementing liberal policy. (Given his unique mental profile he might have even believed it when he said it.)

I think a way that Trump kind of fooled everybody, including those who loathed him, was that he really did give an impression that he was going to operate outside the normal Republican policy agenda, or at least that any overlap with it would be at his own discretion. But instead he just wound up doing whatever Ryan and McConnell told him to, because coming up with his own ideas, or even paying somebody to do it, would've been hard, and he's lazy as poo poo.

Wrong.

Trump absolutely bucked the neocon status quo of the last half century and went isolationist in foreign policy. Which is what most of his voters wanted him to do. And will vote for him again to do.

Things he didn�t do were either 1) congress�s job not the president or 2) Jeff sessions pulled out immediately and let the hit job commence against him instead. The latter is a fault of Trump because he has no friends and justice department required someone he could trust to spring the traps Obama left him. But of course he has nobody he can trust to do that role.

Trump commandeered the Republican Party, they did him no favors and are still fighting out the takeover. No sane person expected actual legislation to go through, Democrats won�t cross the aisle for him. Even though most of the stuff he preached was a Democrat platform from a decade ago.

# ? Nov 1, 2023 02:45

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

Mid-Life Crisis posted:

Wrong.

Trump absolutely bucked the neocon status quo of the last half century and went isolationist in foreign policy. Which is what most of his voters wanted him to do. And will vote for him again to do.

Things he didn�t do were either 1) congress�s job not the president or 2) Jeff sessions pulled out immediately and let the hit job commence against him instead. The latter is a fault of Trump because he has no friends and justice department required someone he could trust to spring the traps Obama left him. But of course he has nobody he can trust to do that role.

Trump commandeered the Republican Party, they did him no favors and are still fighting out the takeover. No sane person expected actual legislation to go through, Democrats won�t cross the aisle for him. Even though most of the stuff he preached was a Democrat platform from a decade ago.

�the traps Obama left him�

# ? Nov 1, 2023 02:58

mannerup: Jan 11, 2004; ♬ I Know You're Dying Trying To Figure Me Out♬

♬My Name's On The Tip Of Your Tongue Keep Running Your Mouth♬

♬You Want The Recipe But Can't Handle My Sound My Sound My Sound♬

♬No Matter What You Do Im Gonna Get It Without Ya♬

♬ I Know You Ain't Used To A Female Alpha♬

mannerup fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Nov 5, 2023

# ? Nov 1, 2023 03:02

TheDeadlyShoe: Feb 14, 2014

Ah yes, attacking the Bush family for the Iraq war. A maneuver so clever that only Trump and anyone who turned on a TV in 2008 could come up with it.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Nov 1, 2023 03:05

mannerup: Jan 11, 2004; ♬ I Know You're Dying Trying To Figure Me Out♬

♬My Name's On The Tip Of Your Tongue Keep Running Your Mouth♬

♬You Want The Recipe But Can't Handle My Sound My Sound My Sound♬

♬No Matter What You Do Im Gonna Get It Without Ya♬

♬ I Know You Ain't Used To A Female Alpha♬

mannerup fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Nov 5, 2023

# ? Nov 1, 2023 03:09

Killer robot: Sep 6, 2010; I was having the most wonderful dream. I think you were in it!; Pillbug

The only complaints the base have to this day about Bush's wars are that he worked with allies, didn't go open and proud genocide, and above all, lost. Talk to one of them for five minutes and they'll tell you the first two led to the third, just like Vietnam.

I'm not saying Trump didn't break Republican taboo by pointing it out, just that anyone who called him a dove or isolationist for it misread both him and his base.

# ? Nov 1, 2023 03:12

i am a moron: Nov 12, 2020; "I think if there’s one thing we can all agree on it’s that Penn State and Michigan both suck and are garbage and it’s hilarious Michigan fans are freaking out thinking this is their natty window when they can’t even beat a B12 team in the playoffs lmao"

The US killed a metric fuckton of Iraqis, handily toppled their government, and replaced it with one that is still functioning to this day. What did the US lose exactly?

# ? Nov 1, 2023 03:17

Gyges: Aug 4, 2004; NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK

I don't think it's a matter of intelligence or even instinct. The secret is that Trump is fundamentally only out for Trump. He doesn't actually consider himself a Republican. Which is why he's "free" to poo poo all over any Republican politician, position, or action that normal politicians would be unable to. He's not trying to build up allies and partnerships for future actions and he has no ideology to advance.

Any free floating agent of chaos could do it. He's just the only one who is funded by his own cult instead of some billionaire.

# ? Nov 1, 2023 03:20

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

mannerup posted:

Ah yes, McCain and Romney sure were blasting the Bush family for the Iraq War during the 2008 and 2012 primaries, something that absolutely came up on the Republican primary debate stages prior to 2016. Sorry I forgot about that, thanks for reminding me.

And... who actually ended the Afghanistan war after a predecessor failed to end it for 4 years while in power? It's hard for me to remember...

Seriously, I don't understand how people don't see Trump as a liar

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Kalit fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Nov 1, 2023

# ? Nov 1, 2023 03:20

Gyges: Aug 4, 2004; NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK

i am a moron posted:

The US killed a metric fuckton of Iraqis, handily toppled their government, and replaced it with one that is still functioning to this day. What did the US lose exactly?

Blood and treasure. Moral issues with war, mass murder, destruction, and inflicting misery aside, it was a really lovely return on investment.

# ? Nov 1, 2023 03:23

mannerup: Jan 11, 2004; ♬ I Know You're Dying Trying To Figure Me Out♬

♬My Name's On The Tip Of Your Tongue Keep Running Your Mouth♬

♬You Want The Recipe But Can't Handle My Sound My Sound My Sound♬

♬No Matter What You Do Im Gonna Get It Without Ya♬

♬ I Know You Ain't Used To A Female Alpha♬

mannerup fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Nov 5, 2023

# ? Nov 1, 2023 03:26

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

mannerup posted:

I am pointing out that is how people justify and rationalize Trump being some kind of dove or isolationist, when the evidence of him wanting to "rip the head off of ISIS", "bomb the poo poo out of them", threatening North Korea with his bigger nuclear button, drone striking Soleimani and hiring John loving Bolton as a National Security Advisor show how disjointed and reactionary his foreign policy views are.

Ahh, sorry I didn't catch your tone, thanks for the explanation.

# ? Nov 1, 2023 03:31

Kith: Sep 17, 2009; You never learn anything
by doing it right.

Gyges posted:

I don't think it's a matter of intelligence or even instinct. The secret is that Trump is fundamentally only out for Trump. He doesn't actually consider himself a Republican. Which is why he's "free" to poo poo all over any Republican politician, position, or action that normal politicians would be unable to. He's not trying to build up allies and partnerships for future actions and he has no ideology to advance.

Any free floating agent of chaos could do it. He's just the only one who is funded by his own cult instead of some billionaire.

The other part of it is that Trump is just loving mean. He's a crass, cruel, hateful bully because that's all he's ever wanted to be and nothing has ever required him to be anything else. Every other slimy humanoid bag of wasps at least pretends to participate in decorum, but Trump has been able to indulge his most hostile behaviors for his entire life and when he goes on the attack it's genuine in ways that they can't even fathom.

# ? Nov 1, 2023 03:36

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# ? May 25, 2024 12:21

Mid-Life Crisis: Jun 13, 2023; by Fluffdaddy

Killer robot posted:

The only complaints the base have to this day about Bush's wars are that he worked with allies, didn't go open and proud genocide, and above all, lost. Talk to one of them for five minutes and they'll tell you the first two led to the third, just like Vietnam.

I'm not saying Trump didn't break Republican taboo by pointing it out, just that anyone who called him a dove or isolationist for it misread both him and his base.

The first point isn�t exclusionary of the second. Many hold the opinion that yes, if you want to win a war you need to be brutal simultaneously with not wanting to start foreign wars unless it merits the brutal response. And every day racists may say that in passing or depending on how you ask them the question, but they�d rather just leave it alone otherwise. They see what keeps happening are rules of engagement and that �gets good boys killed for no good reason�

Trump is isolationist only in the sense that it serves his interests (for the day). But he is vastly more isolationist than anyone we�ve seen for decades, even if he has war hawks for advisors, he doesn�t listen to them anyway.

Keep in mind beyond the religious republicans, the remainder are largely libertarian leaning and just know with the Democrats they�ll never see anything like that, and libertarian logic longs for isolation policies.

The reality is if Biden is digging himself a hole that will cement him as a war hawk neocon for any who still doubted. His plausible deniability is gone. Trump, to those who will vote for him, is absolutely going to be able to maintain both a �kill all evil Hamas� and a �isolationists best chance at peace, look at my history� stance and attract voters and even some to cross the aisle.

I�m not sure why people reference killing Soleimani as evidence that Trump is a war hawk. From a �hard on terror and allies but not over committing Us troops and resources� and the results of it point of view it was a master class move. Risky, yes, but his hard talk led to no overt outcomes. The US puffed its chest, hurt no civilians, and undoubtedly punished terror from the source.

# ? Nov 1, 2023 10:53

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > USCE 2023: Please let them shove a camera up your butt

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