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Groovelord Neato posted:No I meant it already occurred not that they should've done more of it. I'm saying that founding Israel anywhere is inherently doing more of it. Ethnostates, including Israel, should not exist.
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Nov 1, 2023 13:40
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The Jews should never have been given their own state is what it comes down to. Too late to back out of that now though, removing Israel as a state would cause more harm than good in 2023. Of course that doesn’t mean that we can’t take action against them, and it doesn’t even have to be armed conflict. No more sending them weapons, and refusing to send them fuel and aid would go a long ways to reeling Israel in. Their economy and ability to run themselves requires a lot on outside help.
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Nov 1, 2023 13:42
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I said come in! posted:The Jews should never have been given their own state is what it comes down to. Too late to back out of that now though, removing Israel as a state would cause more harm than good in 2023. Of course that doesn’t mean that we can’t take action against them, and it doesn’t even have to be armed conflict. No more sending them weapons, and refusing to send them fuel and aid would go a long ways to reeling Israel in. Their economy and ability to run themselves requires a lot on outside help. Ok, I categorically disagree with this. First of all conflating people of the Jewish faith with Israel is not cool, imo. Secondly, after a millennium of abuse culminating in the Holocaust, Jews were absolutely due something. Unfortunately that something wound up being stealing Palestinian land and homes, and we've all seen how that worked out. In a perfect world, I think a real solution today might look something like a single state solution, where Palestinian people are repossessed of their homes in some way or another, but people of the Jewish faith were still afforded a right of return the same as today. But, concomitantly, people of the Jewish faith would be awarded an equivalent "right of return" to Germany, or perhaps the EU as a whole.
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Nov 1, 2023 13:55
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I said come in! posted:The Jews should never have been given their own state is what it comes down to. Too late to back out of that now though, removing Israel as a state would cause more harm than good in 2023. Of course that doesn’t mean that we can’t take action against them, and it doesn’t even have to be armed conflict. No more sending them weapons, and refusing to send them fuel and aid would go a long ways to reeling Israel in. Their economy and ability to run themselves requires a lot on outside help. Israel exists not because it was given to the Jews by America, Europe or anyone else. It exists because a significant number of Jews want to live, and often die there.
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Nov 1, 2023 13:55
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Shageletic posted:Why can't Gaza be solved by Israel, since they are the ones that instituted the world's largest open air prison, creating the conditions for the extremism they lament? There's plenty of other examples of terrorism wielding indigenous fighters shifting to solely political entities. Why can't it happen here? The lack of trust and goodwill on both sides along with an extended history of failure various peace processes makes it likely that even if new attempts at reconciliation are made, enough bad actors on both sides are willing sabotage the process. A third party with the ability to secure the Gaza Strip and ensure to Israel's satisfaction that no more terror attacks will emanate from the area will be required since there is no way Hamas will be trusted by the Israelis to do so. Shageletic posted:Especially compared to the alternative of a US led occupation that you have to stretch back to WWII to find any successful example of (and there largely "succeeded" by reinstating the previous regime and its participants). As I have said, each situation is unique and there is no reason to assume by default that a third party, regardless of the gargantuan task it would take on, is doomed to fail or that it will be an American operation. As another poster has said, participation and or cooperation from neighboring Arab states will be critical to succeeding as well as this third party genuinely working on behalf of the people of Gaza to address the mountain of issues and hold Israel accountable on any future agreements. This is all hypothetical though at this point as it assumes the conditions set by Biden and the Israelis as an end point in the current fighting be met. But maybe for the first time since Oslo, there is the chance for meaningful resolution of the Gaza Strip legal limbo to move forward.
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Nov 1, 2023 14:02
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Lord Lambeth posted:Israel exists not because it was given to the Jews by America, Europe or anyone else. It exists because a significant number of Jews want to live, and often die there.
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Nov 1, 2023 14:02
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Stringent posted:Ok, I categorically disagree with this. First of all conflating people of the Jewish faith with Israel is not cool, imo. Secondly, after a millennium of abuse culminating in the Holocaust, Jews were absolutely due something. Unfortunately that something wound up being stealing Palestinian land and homes, and we've all seen how that worked out. Right of return does exist in other countries, Portugal for one.
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Nov 1, 2023 14:07
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Lord Lambeth posted:Israel exists not because it was given to the Jews by America, Europe or anyone else. It exists because a significant number of Jews want to live, and often die there. This is decidedly untrue. Palestine was a British colony after the breakup of the Ottoman empire. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine They promised it to a bunch of different groups at different times for geopolitical leverage and the League of Nations eventually carved it up into Israel and Palestine to resolve the dispute.
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Nov 1, 2023 14:07
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CeeJee posted:An ethnostate is where only one group can become citizens. Which is not the case. The idea that Israel is an apartheid state largely hinges on Palestinians being subjects without citizenship (since the Palestinian Authority that runs the West Bank is legally an extension of the Israeli state in several ways, and since the border controls on Gaza massively impact its sovereignty). 'Ethnostate' may be a concept on a gradient, but Israel is certainly very close to the far end.
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Nov 1, 2023 14:10
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Lord Lambeth posted:Israel exists not because it was given to the Jews by America, Europe or anyone else. It exists because a significant number of Jews want to live, and often die there. Yeah, this is absolutely incorrect. Spuckuk posted:Right of return does exist in other countries, Portugal for one. I didn't know, that's very cool.
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Nov 1, 2023 14:11
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KillHour posted:They promised it to a bunch of different groups at different times for geopolitical leverage and the League of Nations eventually carved it up into Israel and Palestine to resolve the dispute. They also did not honour the bit where they said they wouldn't gently caress over Palestine.
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Nov 1, 2023 14:14
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idontpost69 posted:Israel geographically is a horrendous choice for Jewish security in a hostile world. It is a tiny, narrow strip of land surrounded by enemies that at best are temporarily stymied by the US's waning global reach. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDcopmNc3xs Or consider the people in the U.S. who are IDF reservists who dropped everything they were doing and got on a plane and flew to Israel to fight in the war. I don't get the sense they felt it was a "choice" necessarily, but a matter of "necessity." Ms Adequate posted:My own conclusions lead me in totally the opposite direction, and I believe that we should be abolishing borders and creating a world where anyone of any creed and race is safe anywhere on its surface. And obviously this is not the sole or uppermost reasoning for many zionists. But it is a sincere consideration for at least some, and I have no idea how you even begin to crack through such a belief when it is rooted in so much historical experience. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 14:29 on Nov 1, 2023 |
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Nov 1, 2023 14:16
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Spuckuk posted:Right of return does exist in other countries, Portugal for one. Portugal is ending theirs (unrelated to Israel, it's mainly about Russians using it to get EU citizenship and get around sanctions): https://www.jta.org/2023/10/17/global/portugal-moves-to-end-sephardic-jewish-citizenship-law Spain ended theirs in '21. I know Lithuania still has it. Worth noting these laws aren't open to all Jews, even converts, like Israeli citizenship. They require you to prove your ancestors were expelled from that exact country during a certain time frame.
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Nov 1, 2023 14:28
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:But are you willing to fight to abolish borders? Are you willing to make sacrifices? Is abolishing borders and creating this new world just about being safe? If safety is main reason, there are powerful incentives working against what's necessary to achieve that. It's not like the borders will simply tear themselves down. I think we're so far from a world that would accept such a thing that taking it up like that wouldn't do anything to advance the idea, any more than the Unabomber succeeded in getting the world to de-industrialize. And no, safety is not the sole or primary goal, I do think that greater safety would result and it's a strong positive but there are bigger gains to be made economically and most of all I just believe free movement is a fundamental right of all persons.
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Nov 1, 2023 14:34
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France had a right of return for Huguenots up until the 1950s.
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Nov 1, 2023 14:36
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Israel can't exist without fanatical religious belief. Why else would you have to invade specifically your already inhabited holy land, then kill and displace the people living there like some modern crusade? Maybe if they did it to Germany it could be justified. Every country that supports Israels right to exist through the oppression and murder of the original inhabitants can donate their own land.
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Nov 1, 2023 14:40
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i fly airplanes posted:For people to treat Israel as some monolith is just ignorant, and the double standard is horribly apparent when they give Hamas (let alone Palestine) benefit of the doubt. Take for example, the poster that differentiated between "the soup kitchen Hamas member" versus "the Hamas military paraglider". And in this same thread, ones that blame Israelis for 'deserving' it by their sole existence as occupiers—or worse, by 'stupidly' attending a music festival. It's only a double standard when the same person holds both views - "the thread" can't hold a double standard. I'm the poster who wrote the post you are referring to in quotes - and of course I think there is a distinction between Netanyahu and his allies who refer to Palestinians like rabid animals, who are completely culpable, rank-and-file IDF, who hold varying levels of culpability for whatever particular actions they take in the war machine that has already caused thousands of Palestinian deaths, the civil government of Israel that could be anywhere from PR flaks to teachers to managers of government assistance programs, settlers in the West Bank, the many citizens in the 1967 borders, and the non-Jewish residents who have no power to even vote. While I'm sure you can find some posts that express glee over the death of Israeli citizens if you go back far enough and cherry-pick, that view is not commonly held, and speaking personally it is obviously abhorrent and actively hampers discussion to even entertain that view. There have been various posts about Oct 7 that talk about the breakdown of the casualties between IDF, police, and civilians - that's explicitly doing the opposite of what you are complaining about, making a distinction between valid targets and invalid targets. There have been posts examining (relatively weak) evidence that the total death toll might not be entirely from Hamas due to crossfire or indiscriminate shelling - that also only matters if you believe that it matters who civilian deaths are attributed to. The closest anyone has come to saying that all Israelis are the same are posts people make about the possible mindset of the actors involved in Oct 7, which is not an endorsement of the view but analysis using theory of mind to explain why others take the actions they do. Those posts have emphasized the material conditions of life in Gaza, the relative youth of the population (and presumably the attackers), the chaos of the escape over the fence, the hopelessness of finding a better life, and so on. When people make these posts, they are typically taking a role analogous to a defense lawyer at sentencing - there is little doubt that crimes occurred, and that some anonymous Palestinian committed them, but these posts examine whether we view their actions as 100% the result of personal decisions or partially the result of factors controlled (in part or in whole) by the Israeli occupation. As a rule, I don't personally find this line of argumentation compelling, and the framing tends to fall into the trap of mistaking parts for the whole in a way that implies that, depending on the severity of the crimes of the Oct 7 actors, various degrees of collective punishment are justified or unjustified on Israel's part. The way this should have been dealt with, right from the start, is for the Israeli government to investigate and identify the actors responsible for the crimes and demand that they be turned over to stand trial. Obviously that didn't happen - they retaliated (and continue to retaliate) with collective punishment that has galvanized opposition to them within Gaza and internationally, making it now impossible for an honest accounting of the situation to happen. By treating this as an attack in the ongoing hot-and-cold war between Israelis and Palestinians, the Israeli government boosts Hamas to the level of leaders of an legitimate government and army rather than the illegitimate terrorists that they had previously asserted them to be. This is poisonous to justice, as it takes October 7th from " one of the largest terrorist attacks in modern history" to "less than 1/5 of the casualties of the most recent Israeli bombing campaign, and primarily differentiated from previous attacks out of Palestine by the level of efficacy". The Israeli government is monstrous not only for the civilian loss of life inflicted on Palestinians, but the injustice they inflict on the Israeli people by their own actions.
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Nov 1, 2023 14:42
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Party In My Diapee posted:Israel can't exist without fanatical religious belief. Israel was founded by atheists
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Nov 1, 2023 14:43
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Party In My Diapee posted:Israel can't exist without fanatical religious belief. Why else would you have to invade specifically your already inhabited holy land, then kill and displace the people living there like some modern crusade? No not at all, early Zionism was actually very secular. It wasn't motivated by Jewish religion but by the belief that Jews couldn't live in safety or dignity, and Jewish culture couldn't be complete, without a country to protect Jews and centralize Jewish culture. While other sites for a Jewish state were considered (famously Uganda), there were secular interests in Palestine as the Jewish homeland ("it's where our culture/genetics are adapted to function" or "it'll be easier to defend our claim to this land than land where we are clearly all new arrivals"), and it was possible to take (only occupied by a withering empire and an economically/politically disadvantaged indigenous population). It was, and is, much less reminiscent of a "modern crusade" than modern settler colonialism. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Nov 1, 2023 |
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Nov 1, 2023 14:46
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Ms Adequate posted:I think we're so far from a world that would accept such a thing that taking it up like that wouldn't do anything to advance the idea, any more than the Unabomber succeeded in getting the world to de-industrialize. And no, safety is not the sole or primary goal, I do think that greater safety would result and it's a strong positive but there are bigger gains to be made economically and most of all I just believe free movement is a fundamental right of all persons.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k819yUjeGw So now I'm sounding like an anarchist. And while it almost sounds cheesy to talk this way, but I think a revolution against borders is not just about borders but overthrowing a whole regime or system which has enslaved us, and therefore liberating and transforming ourselves. But we don't really think like this, and I don't really think like this. We exist in a world where cynicism and irony and sarcasm is the predominant way of "thinking" and people expressing themselves -- and I feel like that a lot and it's probably rational under the circumstances. But world events don't necessarily follow a rational process. I believe in reason but I'm not convinced human beings are rational. The Israeli state's raison d'etre is not necessarily rational from a utilitarian POV if we're talking about transforming Jews from communities of mere "sthtels" (i.e. Brooklyn...) into worker-soldiers guarding a state with their lives. But they're the ones who are winning. All that being said, I think people are underestimating the Israelis. People are talking like they'll just roll over if you inflict some pain on them. I just don't think that's true. I don't know what to tell 'em. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Nov 1, 2023 |
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Nov 1, 2023 14:49
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BougieBitch posted:It's only a double standard when the same person holds both views - "the thread" can't hold a double standard. I agree, and just to add a talking point, the Israeli government is simultaneously undermining the future security of their citizens by their actions today.
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Nov 1, 2023 14:52
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According to the IDF, 13 soldiers died during the ground operation in Gaza, 11 of whom are named. All of them were from 19 to 21 years old. https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-771111 Are there any estimates from Hamas about military losses on both sides? E: They've named all 13 now, it seems. Paladinus fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Nov 1, 2023 |
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Nov 1, 2023 14:56
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Paladinus posted:According to the IDF, 13 soldiers died during the ground operation in Gaza, 12 of whom are named. All of them were from 19 to 21 years old. The C-SPAM thread is the place to go if you want more up to date reports on things (accurate or otherwise): https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3842990&pagenumber=1457#lastpost
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Nov 1, 2023 15:03
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Stringent posted:The C-SPAM thread is the place to go if you want more up to date reports on things (accurate or otherwise): https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3842990&pagenumber=1457#lastpost What makes that thread more full of info then this one?
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Nov 1, 2023 15:07
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Stringent posted:The C-SPAM thread is the place to go if you want more up to date reports on things (accurate or otherwise): https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3842990&pagenumber=1457#lastpost No, thank you. But if there is a post relevant to my question there, feel free to quote it here.
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Nov 1, 2023 15:08
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The US spent centuries genociding the indigenous population, forcing them into reservations on the worst pieces of land, reneging on those reservations whenever it suited then, and then portraying anyone who fought back as bloodthirsty savages. Indigenous people did occasionally take violent revenge on civilian white settlers. There are hundreds of cities and states with names from people we genocided, and the US essentially paid no price for it. This isn't even that atypical. History has endless instances of one group going "let's kill the other tribe and take their land and their poo poo because there's nobody strong enough to protect them." It's especially common when empires fall apart because the resulting power vacuum leaves lots of opportunity to exterminate the neighbors and settle scores. There's probably a half dozen genocides and ethnic cleansings just from the Ottoman empire falling apart. There's nothing particularly unique or special about Israel just because it's dressed up in a bunch of rhetoric about "we got genocided first" and a Zionist spin on manifest destiny. People get away with genocide all the time, and nobody is going to stop them so long as the US gives Israel carte blanch. The main difference is there was no social media during the trail of tears so we all get to witness the horrors of history at our desks between work email.
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Nov 1, 2023 15:08
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please don't get your news about the I/P conflict from any SA forum lol (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 1, 2023 15:09
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socialsecurity posted:What makes that thread more full of info then this one? More people that can read Arabic.
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Nov 1, 2023 15:14
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Elden Lord Godfrey posted:The Rules Based International Order is loving dead. Irrevocably, permanently so. Sure it used to go into finger wagging tizzies when sovereign nations do typical state repression poo poo within their borders, but if the Rules Based International Order actively fuels and abets a genocide performed by its members, what reason is there to exist? Kenya, Korea, Vietnam, Angola, Guatemala, Congo, East Timor, Rhodesia, Serbia, Kosovo, Chechnya, Ireland, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iraq again, Yemen, Afghanistan again, Palestine, Palestine, Palestine. With social media there's just more firsthand videos out there about what euphemisms like "defending the Rules Based International Order" really entail, and of course Israel and the US are being a bit more shameless than normal and saying the quiet part out loud. The guy who spent his whole presidency drone striking weddings and cafes won the Nobel PeCe Prize. So did Henry Kissinger. Biden is still enforcing genocidal sanctions on Afghanistan to punish them for beating the military occupation of their country. The Rules Based International Order will still be the noble call to action to starve or bomb the next poor indigenous people who aren't subservient enough.
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Nov 1, 2023 15:19
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socialsecurity posted:What makes that thread more full of info then this one? The key phrase here is "accurate or otherwise."
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Nov 1, 2023 15:21
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KillHour posted:
Don’t all states do that though? You have more rights to become a citizen of many countries with the right parents.
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Nov 1, 2023 15:21
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socialsecurity posted:What makes that thread more full of info then this one? News is being posted and not the same circular arguments that have defined this thread for the last month Typo posted:please don't get your news about the I/P conflict from any SA forum lol Where should we get news from? Judgy Fucker fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Nov 1, 2023 |
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Nov 1, 2023 15:23
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Silver2195 posted:The key phrase here is "accurate or otherwise." Hmm, I think both threads have followed some inaccurate lines from time to time. Best advice is to just take any online information with a grain of salt.
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Nov 1, 2023 15:29
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Judgy Fucker posted:
Honestly, these days, you're probably going to be happier if you just don't. Doesn't Threads explicitly prohibit all political content so it's just like pictures of dogs and babies and whatever? Maybe Threads.
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Nov 1, 2023 15:29
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VitalSigns posted:The Rules-Based International Order isn't dead, it's doing what it has always done and it will continue to do it. You're not totally wrong, but I don't see the roles of the "Rules-Based International Order" (by which I assume you mostly mean the US) in all of those various conflicts as morally equivalent.
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Nov 1, 2023 15:31
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Stringent posted:Hmm, I think both threads have followed some inaccurate lines from time to time. that's like the understatement of the year
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Nov 1, 2023 15:33
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Sri.Theo posted:Don’t all states do that though? You have more rights to become a citizen of many countries with the right parents. Most people don't refer to "the country your parents are citizens of" as ancestry. I'm not a huge fan of juis sanguinis in any case, but I meant a combination of race, ethnicity, and caste. There just isn't a great word that covers all of those. KillHour fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Nov 1, 2023 |
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Nov 1, 2023 15:41
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I dont understand how the U.N. works. How come the US was given the power to veteo everyone, making it impossible to do anything against Israel?
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Nov 1, 2023 15:44
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I said come in! posted:I dont understand how the U.N. works. How come the US was given the power to veteo everyone, making it impossible to do anything against Israel? Because every permanent security council member has a veto, and has since the formation of the UN, so that major powers would actually be a part of it. The GA can pass whatever it wants but the security council members are the ones with the power to do anything about it.
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Nov 1, 2023 15:46
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I said come in! posted:I dont understand how the U.N. works. How come the US was given the power to veteo everyone, making it impossible to do anything against Israel? It was always a fairly vapid project, the permanent vetoes are all the "offical" nuclear weapons states and somehow having a room for them to chat in that they couldn't declare war on each other in was totally going to result in world peace unlike the League of Nations because... uhh... we'll get back to you on that one.
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Nov 1, 2023 15:49
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