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Reik posted:Yeah, the tweet is incredibly misleading. The guy was trying to walk through and disrupt/get film of the protesters and they were trying to keep him out/redirect him back on to the walking path. Nobody was stopping him from doing anything, he was antagonizing the protesters. They could do a whole class in media literacy, propaganda and media bias on the past month easy.
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Nov 1, 2023 19:11
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Why is Mister Fister allowed to post his propaganda here again? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 1, 2023 19:12
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I don't understand why Israel is so hell bent on taking Gaza and the West Bank for themselves. Does Israel not have enough land for it's population?
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Nov 1, 2023 19:45
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:Which could be a pretty good description of American imperialism. I'm not sure if it describes Israel. Most of the soldiers in these colonial ventures were also natives led around by British officers. That's not the IDF. I feel like this is a big issue with the rhetoric and shortcuts people make. There's that story about a PLO official talking to a Vietnamese general and asking why the Vietnamese could get the French to leave Vietnam but the Palestinians can't get the Israelis to leave, and the general basically says that the French went back to France but the Israelis don't have anywhere else to go to. Taking Netanyahu as an example, he was born in Israel and his father was part of the Russian Empire living in Warsaw. There isn't really a place to go back to. It's not wrong to call Israel a colonial state but you have to stretch it a bit to mean something different than Vietnam or Australia or South Africa.
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Nov 1, 2023 19:49
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Charliegrs posted:I don't understand why Israel is so hell bent on taking Gaza and the West Bank for themselves. Does Israel not have enough land for it's population? It's literally a batshit insane religious prophecy that's the reason.
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Nov 1, 2023 19:52
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Nah, there's fertile land to steal and exploit. The religious justifications just seem like an after the fact way to excuse naked greed. e: and natural gas off the coast of Gaza Also the IDF I guess confirmed what was painfully obvious: they're responsible for the second strike on the refugee camp. bit of a slip from the Israeli spokesperson https://twitter.com/JordanUhl/status/1719787207232504098 TGLT fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Nov 1, 2023 |
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Nov 1, 2023 19:54
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Charliegrs posted:I don't understand why Israel is so hell bent on taking Gaza and the West Bank for themselves. Does Israel not have enough land for it's population? Because it's a colonialist regime whose existence is based on taking increasingly more land from Arabs. It has nothing to do with rationality but a mythic quest to create an upper strata above a lower one. Settlers in Israel are already talking fondly of returning to Gaza: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/some-israelis-dream-of-return-to-gaza-settlements-as-idf-readies-to-go-back-in/amp/
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Nov 1, 2023 19:54
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Charliegrs posted:I don't understand why
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Nov 1, 2023 19:56
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Charliegrs posted:I don't understand why Israel is so hell bent on taking Gaza and the West Bank for themselves. Does Israel not have enough land for it's population? You have a group of religious fanatics who think they have entitlement to the land based on claims from god thousands of years ago, and unlike being dismissed as the cranks they are they've been catered and appeased to at all times because the target of their ethic cleansing is brown.
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Nov 1, 2023 19:57
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Reik posted:Is there a source on this outside of some random twitter account? Odd account. If you check the quote tweets it's almost all the same account quoting himself with different comments. Bot account behaviour but as though they forgot to change accounts.
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Nov 1, 2023 19:59
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Bunch of videos today of police in Jerusalem attacking anti-zionist Jews there completely unprovoked. I guess Israel is only a safe haven if you fully back the right wing government.
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Nov 1, 2023 20:02
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NovemberMike posted:I feel like this is a big issue with the rhetoric and shortcuts people make. There's that story about a PLO official talking to a Vietnamese general and asking why the Vietnamese could get the French to leave Vietnam but the Palestinians can't get the Israelis to leave, and the general basically says that the French went back to France but the Israelis don't have anywhere else to go to. Taking Netanyahu as an example, he was born in Israel and his father was part of the Russian Empire living in Warsaw. There isn't really a place to go back to. It's not wrong to call Israel a colonial state but you have to stretch it a bit to mean something different than Vietnam or Australia or South Africa. the rhetoric about Israel being a colonialist regime is fairly ambiguous on whether it applies to the Israeli settlements in the west bank or to all of Israel including pre-1967 borders the west bank settlements are where the colonialist argument applies pretty well: the settlers can always just move back to Israel proper OTOH: "from river to the sea, Palestine will be free" certainly implies that the entirety of Israel including the internationally recognized territories like Tel aviv are all illegitimate colonies and yeah, you can't realize that particular aspiration without pushing Israel into the sea
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Nov 1, 2023 20:08
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punishedkissinger posted:Bunch of videos today of police in Jerusalem attacking anti-zionist Jews there completely unprovoked. I guess Israel is only a safe haven if you fully back the right wing government. They're absolutely heading for a civil war at some point.
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Nov 1, 2023 20:08
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Typo posted:the rhetoric about Israel being a colonialist regime is fairly ambiguous on whether it applies to the Israeli settlements in the west bank or to all of Israel including pre-1967 borders Israel has always been a colonial project, from the very beginning, even before it existed as an entity. The father of modern Zionism, Theodore Herzl wrote for help to Cecil Rhodes and said, Theodore Herzl posted:“You are being invited to help make history. It doesn’t involve Africa, but a piece of Asia Minor; not Englishmen but Jews… How, then, do I happen to turn to you since this is an out-of-the-way matter for you? How indeed? Because it is something colonial.” Israel as an entirety, has always been an Apartheid state, directly following South Africa's example. Here is a wonderful documentary by Journeyman Pictures on the topic. It's long, but I highly suggest the watch. They are free and not filez. https://youtu.be/3psMGQE0iW4 (Edit: Unembedding it as it is a full-length documentary.) Noise Complaint fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Nov 1, 2023 |
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Nov 1, 2023 21:25
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Noise Complaint posted:Israel has always been a colonial project, from the very beginning, even before it existed as an entity. just as the lower 48 states of the US were certainly colonial projects in 1850 it's just that I'm not sure if it's still one today since all the original colonists have long died and multiple generations have grown up in America without any attachment to any other countries or pieces of land quote:Israel as an entirety, has always been an Apartheid state, directly following South Africa's example.
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Nov 1, 2023 21:52
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Noise Complaint posted:Israel has always been a colonial project, from the very beginning, even before it existed as an entity. The father of modern Zionism, Theodore Herzl wrote for help to Cecil Rhodes and said, It was always a mix of an indigenous movement, colonial project and refugee settlement. It's never really accurate to boil something down to a single statement when there were at least two different people doing the whole Zionism thing.
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Nov 1, 2023 22:21
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NovemberMike posted:It was always a mix of an indigenous movement, colonial project and refugee settlement. It's never really accurate to boil something down to a single statement when there were at least two different people doing the whole Zionism thing. Can you please elaborate on Israel being an indigenous movement, without using religious texts as a source?
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Nov 1, 2023 22:27
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I imagine a lot of the ~3 million Mizrahi also don't realistically have anywhere to return to.
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Nov 1, 2023 22:31
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Noise Complaint posted:Can you please elaborate on Israel being an indigenous movement, without using religious texts as a source? Are you going to argue that there was not an indigenous jewish population under the Ottomans? One of the major reasons for Israel being chosen as the target of Zionism (aside from Kenya having too many lions) is the fact that Israel had a significant jewish population already there. It was single digit percentages of the population so not as significant as it became under the British but jews never entirely left the area.
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Nov 1, 2023 22:55
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NovemberMike posted:Are you going to argue that there was not an indigenous jewish population under the Ottomans? One of the major reasons for Israel being chosen as the target of Zionism (aside from Kenya having too many lions) is the fact that Israel had a significant jewish population already there. It was single digit percentages of the population so not as significant as it became under the British but jews never entirely left the area.
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Nov 1, 2023 22:58
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NovemberMike posted:Are you going to argue that there was not an indigenous jewish population under the Ottomans? One of the major reasons for Israel being chosen as the target of Zionism (aside from Kenya having too many lions) is the fact that Israel had a significant jewish population already there. It was single digit percentages of the population so not as significant as it became under the British but jews never entirely left the area. I didn't argue that there were no indigenous Jews. What I argued is that Israel as a state was a colonial project first and foremost and still is to this day. A single digit percentage of the population is kind of a laughable argument for it being an indigenous project. What about the majority that weren't?
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Nov 1, 2023 23:03
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Noise Complaint posted:I didn't argue that there were no indigenous Jews. What I argued is that Israel as a state was a colonial project first and foremost and still is to this day. Well that's great then because I never said that it wasn't a colonial project. If you want to argue that it's still a colony though, I'd have to ask which country it is a colony of.
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Nov 1, 2023 23:07
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NovemberMike posted:Well that's great then because I never said that it wasn't a colonial project. If you want to argue that it's still a colony though, I'd have to ask which country it is a colony of. Settler-colonialism does not need to come from a country, but can come from an ideology, and that ideology would be Zionism.
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Nov 1, 2023 23:13
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Noise Complaint posted:Settler-colonialism does not need to come from a country, but can come from an ideology, and that ideology would be Zionism. What other colonies come from ideologies?
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Nov 1, 2023 23:17
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NovemberMike posted:What other colonies come from ideologies? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny
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Nov 1, 2023 23:19
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Noise Complaint posted:Can you please elaborate on Israel being an indigenous movement, without using religious texts as a source? Much of early Zionist ideology, among those who preferred to settle Palestine in particular, was that Jewish culture was broken/inferior when it took place outside the land on which it originated*, that the diaspora needed to be nullified and Jews restored to where they best functioned. I'd call that an indigenous movement - a political movement which leverages the idea of indigeneity to make its case. *For example, a common argument was that the Jewish calendar was calibrated for the Palestinian harvest cycle, which is true, although a lunisolar calendar isn't ideal for harvest calculations. I'm not sure how the religious texts could factor in. "Zionism is an indigenous movement" isn't really an idea that you can find in Jewish religious texts, obviously Zionism is very new and the idea of indigineity is not much older. Plus religious texts can just say "Jews were given the land by God / the land itself is holy and demands Jewish settlement" etc without needing reference to a secular ideal like indigeneity. Maybe a book by a Reform Rabbi might try to make that case. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Nov 1, 2023 |
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Nov 1, 2023 23:22
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NovemberMike posted:What other colonies come from ideologies? I feel like you could make an argument for Rhodesia
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Nov 1, 2023 23:29
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They call it an indigenous movement to align towards liberal sensibilities they will tell different things to different people if you believe any of their poo poo you may as well perform a lobotomy on yourself with a circular drill. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 1, 2023 23:29
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:One of the confusing things about this for me is how I'll read this and agree with everything you just said. From this angle, it's a straightforward example of Apartheid. To the extent to which this nominally-independent Palestine exists, the Israeli government has always found -- and then exploited -- some loophole to ensure it remains nominal. At the same time, the Israelis don't strike me as the same kind of people as colonists in other countries at different times. The ferocity of the Israelis is really shocking as are their hatreds. It's quite scary and disturbing. But that hatred is paired with a strong willingness to fight, and I wonder if that's even inseparable. This is contradictory but might get to the essence of it. Or at least the essence of nationalism. Most colonialism, especially the stuff Westerners tend to be most familiar with, is paired with imperialism. The land is being colonized for the benefit of some far-off home country, which is doing it mostly for the sake of economic exploitation. As such, it's rare for imperial colonies to bring any more of the empire's citizenry than is necessary to oversee and manage the economic exploitation. Even when significant amounts of the colonizing people do migrate in, they retain their identity as part of the imperial overlord, and treat the colony as a subject of their empire rather than as an integral part of the mainland. Rather than displacing the natives, they're usually put to work as a labor force and general underclass. There are definitely exceptions, though. What's going on in Israel is much more similar to two other types of colonialism that don't necessarily come to mind right away for Westerners. One type is the older colonial ventures when the European powers had a hard time effectively controlling colonies and restraining native rebellions from a distance, in which case they'd export over more of their loyal population to run things rather than relying on the natives. For example, in both Northern Ireland and North America, not only was there a mass migration of colonists, but they even forcibly displaced the natives and imported a labor force instead. In these cases they were still seen as colonies, but given time and distance, they could either become regarded as parts of the ruling country, or develop their own separate cultural and ethnic identity to the point of breaking away (as happened with the US). In these kinds of colonies, the natives are treated as outsiders and not fully integrated into society even as an underclass. For example, the US mostly regarded natives as pests and expelled or slaughtered them, forcing them out of the way of an increasingly greedy American expansionism. This expansionism, embodied by stuff like Manifest Destiny, could possibly be regarded as a sort of proto-nationalism, which sprung up due to the new country's prosperity and the new cultural identity being forged as immigrants from all over Europe flocked there. On the other hand, there's also been colonialism as part of nationalist expansionism, especially as large multiethnic empires collapsed to the point where various nationalist movements could start taking military action to seize land for themselves. Even when irredentists were laying claim to ridiculous borders, they never thought of their expansions as colonies, but rather as integral parts of the homeland that were destined and fated to be held by their people - even if it meant getting rid of the current residents. An excellent example is the Balkan Wars, which were heavily influenced by nationalist ambitions on all sides and saw an absolute fuckton of extremely brutal and bloody ethnic cleansing. The various participants sought not only to capture territory but also to change the ethnic makeup of that territory, whether to improve their claims to the land, to remove ethnicities seen as disloyal or untrustworthy, or just out of simple hatred or revenge for previous perceived wrongs. I think the situation in Israel is closer to a combination of those two: colonists from different places taking the land for themselves and forging an independent shared cultural and ethnic identity that's related to (but distinct from) previous shared cultural elements, and then engaging in irredentist expansionism for the sake of nationalist ambitions with all the bloody ethnic cleansing that tends to entail. Charliegrs posted:I don't understand why Israel is so hell bent on taking Gaza and the West Bank for themselves. Does Israel not have enough land for it's population? Nationalism. The settlers want the West Bank because of its historical and religious ties to the Jewish people, as parts of it are believed to have been part of the ancient Israeli kingdoms, which makes it a high-priority target for irredentists seeking to claim as much land as Israel can possibly claim any ties to. They're less interested in Gaza, which was originally taken largely to create a buffer against Egypt, but the large amount of Palestinians there (many of whom are the descendants of refugees who fled the 1948 war) means that they can't easily ignore it for fear that it might become a basis for an independent Palestine. NovemberMike posted:I feel like this is a big issue with the rhetoric and shortcuts people make. There's that story about a PLO official talking to a Vietnamese general and asking why the Vietnamese could get the French to leave Vietnam but the Palestinians can't get the Israelis to leave, and the general basically says that the French went back to France but the Israelis don't have anywhere else to go to. Taking Netanyahu as an example, he was born in Israel and his father was part of the Russian Empire living in Warsaw. There isn't really a place to go back to. It's not wrong to call Israel a colonial state but you have to stretch it a bit to mean something different than Vietnam or Australia or South Africa. Netanyahu was born in Israel, but he grew up in America. Although his father was born in the Russian Empire and originally emigrated to Palestine, Benzion Netanyahu spent around two decades living in America, where his children spent most of their childhoods - he even spent eight years as head of the New Zionist Organization of America, a Zionist fascist movement responsible for the creation of Irgun and Lehi. Young Benjamin didn't permanently move to Israel until age 29 - he did a stint in the IDF after high school, but returned to the US afterward for college and started his career there. There's certainly plenty of Israeli Jews who don't have anywhere to go back to (for example, a lot of the Mizrahi Jews), but the Netanyahus aren't one of them. A lot of the Ashkenazi elite (by which I mean "the rich Ashkenazis", not "all Ashkenazis") in Israel have some sort of ties to America or Europe.
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Nov 1, 2023 23:30
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The colony of manifest destiny came from ideology and wasn't related to a nation like the United States? That's new to me.
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Nov 1, 2023 23:30
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NovemberMike posted:What other colonies come from ideologies? It's the distinction between colonialism and settler-colonialism. Colonialism is "we're going to show up and take your poo poo home with us" whereas settler-colonialism is "we're looking to create a country or a new homeland in our image and we need land, kindly gently caress off or we'll kill you."
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Nov 1, 2023 23:33
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NovemberMike posted:Well that's great then because I never said that it wasn't a colonial project. If you want to argue that it's still a colony though, I'd have to ask which country it is a colony of. Britain. While the colonists didn't all come from Britain, it was Britain who assumed political control over distant Palestine, sent colonial administrators to run it, and set policies that allowed large numbers of European immigrants to travel there. The fact that many of those immigrants weren't British, and that those immigrants didn't consider their settler-colonialism to be specifically British in nature, is largely irrelevant - the British are the ones who first put the colonial administration in place and created the conditions for mass immigration of settlers. After all, Israel is hardly the first colonial project to develop a cultural identity separate from that of the mother country and break the colonial ties. There were plenty of non-English folks in the Thirteen Colonies even before the American War of Independence.
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Nov 1, 2023 23:48
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NovemberMike posted:What other colonies come from ideologies? Apartheid South Africa
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Nov 1, 2023 23:48
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Main Paineframe posted:Netanyahu was born in Israel, but he grew up in America. Although his father was born in the Russian Empire and originally emigrated to Palestine, Benzion Netanyahu spent around two decades living in America, where his children spent most of their childhoods - he even spent eight years as head of the New Zionist Organization of America, a Zionist fascist movement responsible for the creation of Irgun and Lehi. Young Benjamin didn't permanently move to Israel until age 29 - he did a stint in the IDF after high school, but returned to the US afterward for college and started his career there. There's certainly plenty of Israeli Jews who don't have anywhere to go back to (for example, a lot of the Mizrahi Jews), but the Netanyahus aren't one of them. A lot of the Ashkenazi elite (by which I mean "the rich Ashkenazis", not "all Ashkenazis") in Israel have some sort of ties to America or Europe. I think you're mixing some things up. Bibi didn't go to America when his father did, he stayed in Tel Aviv until he was in high school. I think he spent something like 10-12 years in America before he was 30. You're making it sound like he was born in Israel and they whisked him away before his first birthday. I'm not going to argue against the fact that he's a right wing dipshit but he isn't "American" in any real sense. PT6A posted:It's the distinction between colonialism and settler-colonialism. Colonialism is "we're going to show up and take your poo poo home with us" whereas settler-colonialism is "we're looking to create a country or a new homeland in our image and we need land, kindly gently caress off or we'll kill you." How is this even a response to what I said? Are you suggesting that the difference between colonialism and settler colonialism is ideology? Colonialism doesn't have ideologies?
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Nov 1, 2023 23:49
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NovemberMike posted:The colony of manifest destiny came from ideology and wasn't related to a nation like the United States? That's new to me. You asked what colonial projects were driven by ideology, and Manifest Destiny was a 19th century ideology with the explicit and stated goal of removing all the non-white inhabitants of North America and replacing them with white people, and that white Americans were chosen by God to do this, both for their own prosperity and to uplift "savage" peoples by either converting them to Christianity and erasing their culture, or exterminating them. There was an economic benefit too but colonial projects aren't strictly one single taxonomy and nothing else. Or look at the Mormons, which pretty much had the same ideological bent as Manifest Destiny, except it was to eradicate indigenous and American settlers in the American West to form a Mormon ethnostate independent and of and for most of it's life hostile to the United States. There's no Mormon imperial nation that sent the settlers, it was purely a religious and ideological project. The main reason Utah isn't an independent theocratic ethnostate today is because after the civil war the US was like "nah nah we're not sharing this poo poo guys. ALL of this is ours" and marched an army over to Salt Lake. Then they renamed the territory for the Ute tribe as a gently caress you to the Mormons, just to underline who was in control. The name Mormons called their almost nation was Deseret. Hell, the Mormons LOVE aping all kinds of old Jewish words and mythology for themselves. It's where Zion National Park gets its name from. It's fairly common for them to refer to non-mormons as gentiles.
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Nov 1, 2023 23:49
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Typo posted:the rhetoric about Israel being a colonialist regime is fairly ambiguous on whether it applies to the Israeli settlements in the west bank or to all of Israel including pre-1967 borders On that slogan: there are millions of Palestinians who were expelled from the lands of the "internationally recognized territories" of current Israel, or the direct descendants of those refugees. Many of them would quite like to be free to return home. Also the whole second-class citizen in Israel or non-citizen in the not-formally-annexed territories thing. Also note that from a jewish-supremacist point of view if Israel ceases being a jewish-supremacist state then it has been "destroyed". All that takes is the cessation of policies enforcing jewish demographic majority.
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Nov 1, 2023 23:52
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NovemberMike posted:How is this even a response to what I said? Are you suggesting that the difference between colonialism and settler colonialism is ideology? Colonialism doesn't have ideologies? Correct. Traditional colonialism is mostly practical in nature, and settler-colonialism is motivated by ideology because the entire purpose is to create a new state for a given reason/ideology.
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Nov 1, 2023 23:54
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PT6A posted:Correct. Traditional colonialism is mostly practical in nature, and settler-colonialism is motivated by ideology because the entire purpose is to create a new state for a given reason/ideology. settler colonialism was mostly motivated by economics, ppl mostly migrated from England to America because there was a lot of free land. The ideological components came later to justify land grabs against natives
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Nov 2, 2023 00:01
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TGLT posted:I feel like you could make an argument for Rhodesia South Africa also. The Boers didn't have anywhere to go back to, but that doesn't mean what they were doing wasn't colonial. Clearing indigenous people off of the good land, moving them into Bantustans, etc Also you don't necessarily have to go to another continent to use colonial methods to build an ethnostate, you can do similar things to minorities right next door https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_colonialism
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Nov 2, 2023 00:01
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Typo posted:settler colonialism was mostly motivated by economics, ppl mostly migrated from England to America because there was a lot of free land. Except the Puritans who did migrate for explicitly ideological reasons.
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Nov 2, 2023 00:05
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