|
mrmcd posted:You asked what colonial projects were driven by ideology No, I asked what colonies came from ideologies. And I meant in a way that's completely divorced from a parent nation-state. Manifest destiny was just a bunch of stuff around the very practical (I'm not apologizing for it but "holy poo poo, free land over there" is barely an ideology) expansionist policies of the United States. I'm asking for something similar to the claimed Zionism->Israel ideological colonialism. I'm not even arguing that Israel isn't colonial in many ways, I just think people are trying to make statements that are way stronger than they support. EDIT: PT6A posted:Except the Puritans who did migrate for explicitly ideological reasons. Ok, this is actually a convincing one.
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 00:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 06:58 |
|
|
Mister Fister posted:https://twitter.com/JamesSurowiecki/status/1719725831520399691 Is there a better translation of what he's saying other than Memri? Also, would they even be able to repeat it at the moment?
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 00:28
|
|
|
NovemberMike posted:No, I asked what colonies came from ideologies. And I meant in a way that's completely divorced from a parent nation-state. Manifest destiny was just a bunch of stuff around the very practical (I'm not apologizing for it but "holy poo poo, free land over there" is barely an ideology) expansionist policies of the United States. I'm asking for something similar to the claimed Zionism->Israel ideological colonialism. The parent nation-state doesn't necessarily have any particular connection to the actual colonial project. All the parent nation-state needs to do is create the conditions to allow colonization, by providing political and military support to prevent the natives from driving out the settlers. Settlers will happily flock to economically-productive land as long as there's no legal, economic, or military obstacles to doing so. While this is usually done for the direct profit of the parent nation-state (because this kind of support isn't cheap), it occasionally happens that a nation-state will provide free support to an ethnic or cultural group regarded as "friendly" in return for perceived indirect benefits in having a friendly presence in the region. That said, the British mainly removed the legal and military obstacles. The removal of economic obstacles doesn't necessarily require nation-state involvement, and in this case it was the result of an ideological movement. Zionist organizations fundraised from well-off Jews in America and Western Europe, and used that money to pay for the transportation of poor Jews to Palestine, as well as their absorption into Jewish colonies upon arrival. Wealthy bankers who believed strongly in Zionism, like Baron Edmond James de Rothschild and Baron Maurice de Hirsch, established and heavily funded groups like the Jewish Colonization Association which bought up Palestinian land and subsidized migration to Palestine. Meanwhile, Zionist industrialists and engineers founded organizations like the Jewish National Fund that heavily engaged in fundraising among Jews worldwide, using Zionist rhetoric to gather donations which could be used to buy up land in Palestine and lease it to Jews. While the political and military obstacles were cleared by Britain, the financial support for establishing Jewish colonies in Palestine was drawn from the Zionist ideological movement.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 00:43
|
|
|
Willo567 posted:Is there a better translation of what he's saying other than Memri? Also, would they even be able to repeat it at the moment? posting MEMRI should be a sixer imo, that poo poo is completely unreliable as a translation
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 00:51
|
|
|
punishedkissinger posted:posting MEMRI should be a sixer imo, that poo poo is completely unreliable as a translation I've been pretty sus of it the last couple times it's come up. Do you have a particular corroborating link or two or something I can review?
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 00:57
|
|
|
Also have no idea why the interview is being reported now since it was a week ago
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 01:02
|
|
|
punishedkissinger posted:posting MEMRI should be a sixer imo, that poo poo is completely unreliable as a translation I agree with this if it means all non-reputable twitter posts get a sixer in this thread, it's been ridiculous. And surprising, since this thread is supposed to have stricter rules Kalit fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Nov 2, 2023 |
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 01:03
|
|
|
Google Jeb Bush posted:I've been pretty sus of it the last couple times it's come up. Do you have a particular corroborating link or two or something I can review? The Guardian: Arabic Under Fire The Guardian: Selective MEMRI Most notorious stunt: quote:According to Memri, the child replies: "We will annihilate the Jews."
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 01:05
|
|
|
Neurolimal posted:The Guardian: Arabic Under Fire Yeah that'll do. Preemptive "please don't post memri translations" while I haul this to the dnd mod hive mind. I/we will probably note it in the OP soon. also probably don't post memri articles unless you feel lucky or have a very good reason indeed
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 01:09
|
|
|
Kalit posted:I agree with this if it means all non-reputable twitter posts get a sixer in this thread, it's been ridiculous. And surprising, since this thread is supposed to have stricter rules I'm going to raise this but it might not happen in the next 24h or whatever
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 01:11
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:The parent nation-state doesn't necessarily have any particular connection to the actual colonial project. All the parent nation-state needs to do is create the conditions to allow colonization, by providing political and military support to prevent the natives from driving out the settlers. Settlers will happily flock to economically-productive land as long as there's no legal, economic, or military obstacles to doing so. While this is usually done for the direct profit of the parent nation-state (because this kind of support isn't cheap), it occasionally happens that a nation-state will provide free support to an ethnic or cultural group regarded as "friendly" in return for perceived indirect benefits in having a friendly presence in the region. It seems like you're mixing a few things up. Decolonial schools of thought describe things in terms of colonization or decolonization of gender, thought, culture, etc and it can be a very legitimate way of looking at things, but actual colonies are areas governed by a metropole that are not part of the metropole. Israel has no metropole. If you talk about Israel being a colony you have to be talking in a non-standard sense and a lot of theory that talks about colonies and decolonization isn't going to apply. A lot of decolonial stuff will still apply though. Keep in mind that a bunch of zionists liked calling it a colony because colonies were cool then. It's like people calling things blockchains or "powered by AI". To a degree it was about branding.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 01:12
|
|
|
PT6A posted:Except the Puritans who did migrate for explicitly ideological reasons. true, but most colonists were not puritans past the early phases
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 01:14
|
|
|
Google Jeb Bush posted:I'm going to raise this but it might not happen in the next 24h or whatever Please do. I'm happy to add supportive evidence of people sharing plenty of rando tweets with, at a minimum, misleading information if you need it. Regardless of it being anti-Palestine or anti-Israel. There's a couple off the top of my head that are flat out lies, but I will happily dig in further for more than that. Kalit fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Nov 2, 2023 |
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 01:17
|
|
|
NovemberMike posted:It seems like you're mixing a few things up. Decolonial schools of thought describe things in terms of colonization or decolonization of gender, thought, culture, etc and it can be a very legitimate way of looking at things, but actual colonies are areas governed by a metropole that are not part of the metropole. Israel has no metropole. If you talk about Israel being a colony you have to be talking in a non-standard sense and a lot of theory that talks about colonies and decolonization isn't going to apply. A lot of decolonial stuff will still apply though. It seems like you're really focused on one single definition of colonialism, and there's a really nice Wikipedia article that might clear up what we're talking about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism_as_settler_colonialism Edit: Here is Patrick Wolfe's original paper on Settler-colonialism https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623520601056240 Noise Complaint fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Nov 2, 2023 |
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 01:26
|
|
|
Noise Complaint posted:It seems like you're really focused on one single definition of colonialism, and there's a really nice Wikipedia article that might clear up what we're talking about. That's what I'm talking about decolonial thought. He's not actually calling Israel a colony. You can double check the article, he never says those words. These things get pretty weird because the "experts" have chosen the dumbest way to word things if they thought clarity was valuable but knowledge around traditional colonialism doesn't really apply to Israel. It all gets even messier because the settlements in the West Bank are realistically kind of colonies.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 01:45
|
|
|
KillHour posted:This is decidedly untrue. Palestine was a British colony after the breakup of the Ottoman empire. if you look at the history of zionism, there were a few attempts to create a jewish homeland. this idea was in the atmosphere for a while before theodor herzl was even born. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism I think some folks overestimate the impact of old great power politics and underestimate the autonomy of the jewish people. the fact they intersected was more circumstantial then intentional.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 01:58
|
|
|
NovemberMike posted:That's what I'm talking about decolonial thought. He's not actually calling Israel a colony. You can double check the article, he never says those words. These things get pretty weird because the "experts" have chosen the dumbest way to word things if they thought clarity was valuable but knowledge around traditional colonialism doesn't really apply to Israel. It all gets even messier because the settlements in the West Bank are realistically kind of colonies. Israel does not have to be a colony to be a state formed by settler-colonialism. I'm still unsure what you're even going at here besides dragging semantics out. Is your argument that Israel not a settler-colonial state?
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 02:03
|
|
|
NovemberMike posted:It seems like you're mixing a few things up. Decolonial schools of thought describe things in terms of colonization or decolonization of gender, thought, culture, etc and it can be a very legitimate way of looking at things, but actual colonies are areas governed by a metropole that are not part of the metropole. Israel has no metropole. If you talk about Israel being a colony you have to be talking in a non-standard sense and a lot of theory that talks about colonies and decolonization isn't going to apply. A lot of decolonial stuff will still apply though. Zionists liked to call it a colony because they were colonizing it. As for the metropole, I covered that last page: Main Paineframe posted:Britain. While the colonists didn't all come from Britain, it was Britain who assumed political control over distant Palestine, sent colonial administrators to run it, and set policies that allowed large numbers of European immigrants to travel there. The fact that many of those immigrants weren't British, and that those immigrants didn't consider their settler-colonialism to be specifically British in nature, is largely irrelevant - the British are the ones who first put the colonial administration in place and created the conditions for mass immigration of settlers. After all, Israel is hardly the first colonial project to develop a cultural identity separate from that of the mother country and break the colonial ties. There were plenty of non-English folks in the Thirteen Colonies even before the American War of Independence. While colonies start as areas under foreign government, it's not uncommon for them to attain some level of self-rule and independence, often under a new or reorganized local government. The Mandate of Palestine was a British colony, and the British facilitated an influx of Jewish colonists, then unilaterally withdrew their control and left the colonists to organize a new government with close ties to them (though not as close as the Dominions).
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 02:24
|
|
|
So does the definition of "colony" you're wanting everyone to use require a metropole? No metropole, it can't be a colony? And is this definition retroactive, if a colony becomes self-governing and therefore has no overseas metropole any longer, does that mean it was never a colony even if the people who founded it were deliberately creating a colony (at least, so they thought, since they wouldn't be able to see the future?) Were the 13 American colonies actually colonies, or did the colonists just think they were because they didn't know they would become an independent self-governing country one day without a European metropole any longer? Because if the answer to either of the questions in the first and second paragraphs is "no", then I don't see how "then where's Israel's metropole" is an argument that it wasn't colonized VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Nov 2, 2023 |
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 02:51
|
|
|
Willo567 posted:Is there a better translation of what he's saying other than Memri? Also, would they even be able to repeat it at the moment? Believe it or not, Coup frontman and director Boots Riley has been on this. Riley is pretty political, having been an activist since he was 14 and being involved in Occupy Oakland, outreach for Bernie Sanders, and shouting out union actions, so I would trust his view on the matter, at least as a counterpoint. He says the translation is accurate but the MEMRI piece is heavily edited to take things out of context. He goes over it in some detail in this thread. https://x.com/BootsRiley/status/1719783509613789300?s=20 https://x.com/BootsRiley/status/1719845290146943442?s=20 He retweet his original thread with new information, after finding the unedited video. https://x.com/BootsRiley/status/1719864481055211780?s=20 https://x.com/BootsRiley/status/1719866507419877437?s=20 https://x.com/BootsRiley/status/1719892163415453895?s=20
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 02:57
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:Zionists liked to call it a colony because they were colonizing it. As for the metropole, I covered that last page: I guess I'll respond to the earlier post now. quote:Britain. While the colonists didn't all come from Britain, it was Britain who assumed political control over distant Palestine, sent colonial administrators to run it, and set policies that allowed large numbers of European immigrants to travel there. The fact that many of those immigrants weren't British, and that those immigrants didn't consider their settler-colonialism to be specifically British in nature, is largely irrelevant - the British are the ones who first put the colonial administration in place and created the conditions for mass immigration of settlers. After all, Israel is hardly the first colonial project to develop a cultural identity separate from that of the mother country and break the colonial ties. There were plenty of non-English folks in the Thirteen Colonies even before the American War of Independence. This just isn't convincing. Much of the jewish immigration was against the wishes of the British, and the British were not on the Israeli side in the 1948 war. The Arab invasion was denounced by the Soviet Union and the British had officers embedded with the Arab armies to help them. When the Israeli state was created the assumption was that it was going to be a socialist state and it wasn't until it was flooded with Mizrahim refugees and the Ashkenazi decided to be all racist against them that this broke apart. It's kind of the opposite of what you're suggesting here, at least immediately after the creation of the state. VitalSigns posted:So does the definition of "colony" you're wanting everyone to use require a metropole? No metropole, it can't be a colony? Yes. That is the common definition of a colony as the part of a state that is not part of the metropole. quote:And is this definition retroactive, if a colony becomes self-governing and therefore has no overseas metropole any longer, does that mean it was never a colony even if the people who founded it were deliberately creating a colony (at least, so they thought, since they wouldn't be able to see the future?) What the gently caress are you even talking about? A metropole doesn't need to be overseas, and there's nothing about anything being retroactive. Mandatory Palestine was of course a colony. League of Nations Mandates were supposed to be colonies that were being prepared for self-rule. The question is whether the state of Israel is a colony, which I would argue as no (outside the west bank) but it's not unreasonable to say that it has elements of settler colonialism. NovemberMike fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Nov 2, 2023 |
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 02:58
|
|
|
Google Jeb Bush posted:Yeah that'll do. Preemptive "please don't post memri translations" while I haul this to the dnd mod hive mind. I/we will probably note it in the OP soon. So if we're not posting MEMRI articles, how is posting Boots Riley tweets going to be any different? What's the standard here: this guy is a self identified communist whose fame is a bunch of unknown films and rap titles, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_Riley I'm all for a higher journalistic standard in this thread, but this is clearly targeted to one side.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 03:24
|
|
|
NovemberMike posted:I guess I'll respond to the earlier post now. The British did, after a certain point, start to clamp down on Jewish immigration as they realized the massive influx of Zionists was destabilizing Mandatory Palestine. But if you want to claim that the Mandate of Palestine wasn't intended for Jewish colonization, then that's a little baffling. There's so much documentary evidence in support of it that it's a little difficult to pick out anything to argue. For simplicity's sake, rather than trying to pick apart two and a half decades of constantly-shifting British policy, I'll just go back to the original language of the actual Mandate for Palestine that officially established British control over the territory: quote:The Council of the League of Nations: I didn't quote the whole thing (there were 28 articles in total), but you can see pretty clearly that the Mandate was openly intended to facilitate Jewish colonization of the region from the very beginning. While it makes occasional noises about respecting the rights of the people who already live there. As for the question of whether Israel is a colony or not, you are the one who raised that question in the first place, seemingly out of nowhere. Other people were talking about it being a "colonialist regime" or "colonial project", and you were the first one to raise the specific word "colony" in this conversation, seemingly in the belief that people calling it a "colonial project" meant that it was a current colony.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 03:35
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:So does the definition of "colony" you're wanting everyone to use require a metropole? No metropole, it can't be a colony? It's only colonialism if it originates from the Coloniàel region of France. Otherwise it's just incidental ethnic cleansing.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 03:44
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:The British did, after a certain point, start to clamp down on Jewish immigration as they realized the massive influx of Zionists was destabilizing Mandatory Palestine. But if you want to claim that the Mandate of Palestine wasn't intended for Jewish colonization, then that's a little baffling. There's so much documentary evidence in support of it that it's a little difficult to pick out anything to argue. For simplicity's sake, rather than trying to pick apart two and a half decades of constantly-shifting British policy, I'll just go back to the original language of the actual Mandate for Palestine that officially established British control over the territory: My position this entire time was that there were elements of settler colonialism. quote:As for the question of whether Israel is a colony or not, you are the one who raised that question in the first place, seemingly out of nowhere. Other people were talking about it being a "colonialist regime" or "colonial project", and you were the first one to raise the specific word "colony" in this conversation, seemingly in the belief that people calling it a "colonial project" meant that it was a current colony. It's not out of nowhere. My position in this is that Israel is a state that can be partially understood through a settler-colonial lens but that if you go too far with it it breaks pretty badly. With any other state that's strongly settler-colonial you can point to the colony bit. Sometimes it's a bit fuzzy, like how in America the frontier would slowly shift from colony to metropole but I can't think of any where it's totally nonsensical to talk about. I get the whole perspective where you talk about it as a structure rather than an event but I feel like if you're doing that you have to accept how that weakens the arguments you can make.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 03:54
|
|
|
NovemberMike posted:My position this entire time was that there were elements of settler colonialism. It's actually exactly like the American West. the West Bank is the colony and Israel has become the metropole.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 04:09
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 04:12
|
|
|
It doesn't seem like you actually disagree with anyone you're arguing with, they're talking about the founding of Israel being a colonial project and best I can tell you're talking about whether Tel Aviv is ruled from a foreign capitol today (obviously it isn't). Like someone talking about the history of Massachusetts Bay Colony as a colonial project and you're objecting that it has a different name today and is part of a self-governing metropole so it can't be a currently operating colony in 2023. True but irrelevant to the historical discussion of its creation and settlement by Europeans.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 04:12
|
|
|
punishedkissinger posted:It's actually exactly like the American West. the West Bank is the colony and Israel has become the metropole. I've literally said that the West Bank is an example of settler-colonialism by Israel. Why do people keep thinking I'm arguing that Israel doesn't at least have aspects that are clearly settler-colonialism.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 04:20
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:It doesn't seem like you actually disagree with anyone you're arguing with, they're talking about the founding of Israel being a colonial project and best I can tell you're talking about whether Tel Aviv is ruled from a foreign capitol today (obviously it isn't). It looks like you missed the initial claim that Israel was *and is now* a colonial project, which is what started this whole "colony of what country?" settler-colonialism/colonialism discussion. Here it is: Noise Complaint posted:What I argued is that Israel as a state was a colonial project first and foremost and still is to this day. You are right, however, that nobody seems to actually disagree with NovemberMike, it's just a circle of confusion. I think if Noise Complaint had said settler-colonial it wouldn't have sparked this. Hopefully that helps end the confusion.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 04:26
|
|
|
Google Jeb Bush posted:I've been pretty sus of it the last couple times it's come up. Do you have a particular corroborating link or two or something I can review? it's explicitly an Israeli op quote:Evidence from Memri's website also casts doubt on its non-partisan status. Besides supporting liberal democracy, civil society, and the free market, the institute also emphasises "the continuing relevance of Zionism to the Jewish people and to the state of Israel". https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/aug/12/worlddispatch.brianwhitaker
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 04:28
|
|
|
DeadlyMuffin posted:It looks like you missed the initial claim that Israel was *and is now* a colonial project, which is what started this whole "colony of what country?" settler-colonialism/colonialism discussion. A country can carry out colonization within its own borders. It doesn't have to itself be ruled from an external metropole https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_colonialism Asking where Tel Aviv's Governor General is and what European country appoints Israel's government misses the op's point, I think.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 04:33
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:Ah thank you, you're right there is confusion but i think you're not quite right about exactly what. "Colonial project" is different from "colony" Agreed, but I think that is how it was read.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 04:45
|
|
|
i fly airplanes posted:So if we're not posting MEMRI articles, how is posting Boots Riley tweets going to be any different? What's the standard here: this guy is a self identified communist whose fame is a bunch of unknown films and rap titles, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_Riley memri had clear examples posted of them flat-out lying, and then lying about lying, aswell as hiding that they're an Israeli intelligence operation. unless you have something that says/proves Boots lies about poo poo too, i think that's how it's different just for info: Boots Riley is infact a very well known dude with a long list of credentials as a political activist, hes been interviewed by several major publications when i just checked: nyt, and in the last year, npr, vogue. gq, rolling stone. here's a picture of him with globally known artist and activist Tupac Shakur aswell as E-40, another hiphop legend, who were/are respectively his personal friends  ( boots on left)def m not some random twitter guy, he's been an established figure since the early 90s, is not a state or corporate actor and as far as I know, has an unblemished reputation politically and otherwise
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 05:18
|
|
|
FirstnameLastname posted:memri had clear examples posted of them flat-out lying, and then lying about lying, aswell as hiding that they're an Israeli intelligence operation. unless you have something that says/proves Boots lies about poo poo too, i think that's how it's different If he doesn't speak Arabic, I don't think his creative and political achievements are relevant to the topic at hand.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 05:23
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 05:25
|
|
|
i dont believe boots would lie to me
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 05:50
|
|
|
mannerup posted:what does that have to do with Boots Riley knowing Arabic and being able to show the veracity of the translation of the source material that MEMRI used? Nobody doubts his activist bona fides, but it's not exactly relevant to the question being asked. It would be the same as citing Tom Morello. He's not translating it? Nobody said he was. He's saying memri is full of poo poo, and cites a translation from someone else. They were asking why someone who didn't appear to be notable or known to them was any more credible All I'm doing is giving some detail on how he's a well established figure with a good reputation and not a noname twitter rando or politic-fakestuff-guy or rival intelligence operation to memri or whatever. They were asking why citing his post on memri was any different from posting memri: i was saying why & gave details just for people who dont know who he is since he's a regional westcoast figure mostly I can't say how correct what he's posting is, and he could be totally wrong, all i meant was it's unlikely he's deceiving people intentionally ala memri & has a real reputation to lose if he were
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 05:54
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 06:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 06:58 |
|
|
  I certainly hope that people aren't defending the same Memri that produced the above translations of Arabic speakers and which is so well known for producing awful translations that it has literally become a meme lol https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/memri-tv
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2023 06:36
|
|