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HonorableTB posted:I'm still of the opinion that the hospital strike was a PIJ rocket misfire rather than an Israeli airstrike simply because we have seen enough evidence of verified Israeli airstrikes on hospitals that I find it hard to believe that this one time they targeted a hospital, their super accurate guided weapons instead hit an adjacent parking lot instead of the intended hospital. To me the biggest evidence that the hospital wasn't hit by Israel is that the hospital is still standing to begin with. Israel has shown little to no compuncture about civilian targets and their weaponry is as accurate as you can get. It doesn't make sense why they'd miss this time instead of blowing up the hospital like they have been doing previously (even hitting the same hospital a few days earlier! But now they miss?? By that much of a margin?) If the hospital was the intended target then in any case even if the first missile WAS an Israeli miss, their doctrine is to use multiple munitions anyway, and the hospital wasn't hit with any follow up strikes. Israel is predictable in their brutality such that you can get an idea of who attacked what by how relatively destructive it is compared to known Israeli attacks. What if they targeted the car park specifically? \/\/\/ The official number was 471 in the end. Paladinus fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 18:27
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Did 500 people die in the hospital courtyard? I thought that claim had been walked back/had translation issues from the original source.
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Nov 2, 2023 18:28
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Civilized Fishbot posted:You can totally prove a negative. "I am not in Israel right now" is easy to prove. "Hamas did not nuke Tel Aviv" is easy to prove. I think that Netanyahu hosed a pig once. Prove me wrong. If you wanted to prove me wrong, you would have to show me documented recordings of Netanyahu's entire life. And if there was any gap in the documentation whatsoever, well, maybe he snuck off to gently caress a pig there. This would obviously be impossible for you to do. So the burden of proof would be on me to, for example, provide video footage of him balls deep in a pig's rear end. Which would be trivially easy for me to do if it was true. Sadly, I do not have such evidence, so even though it is certainly plausible that he could have hosed a pig, we have to assume that it's not true. For now. That's what proving a negative means.
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Nov 2, 2023 18:33
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Fister Roboto posted:I think that Netanyahu hosed a pig once. Prove me wrong. This isn't disproving your claim, but I do think it's highly likely that you're just somehow confusing Bibi Netanyahu with David Cameron.
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Nov 2, 2023 18:35
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Fister Roboto posted:I think that Netanyahu hosed a pig once... I can't say with certainty that Netanyahu never hosed a pig. I mean, look at how he lives! All I can say is there's no reason to think he's done this, and some reason to believe he probably hasn't (normal human aversion to bestiality etc). If someone told me it happened my first reaction would not be "shut up that didn't happen," it would be "oh wow, I haven't heard that, how do you know?" I'm asking how we know with certainty that these Hatzalah guys are lying. What reason do we have to believe that, other than "no pictures of it" and "I just don't trust them." Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 18:38
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Sri.Theo posted:Did 500 people die in the hospital courtyard? I thought that claim had been walked back/had translation issues from the original source. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 18:39
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Civilized Fishbot posted:There was an emergency medic who said that's what he and others saw, and his entire organization (Hatzalah) is backing him up on it: https://www.thejc.com/news/news/i-saw-a-baby-who-had-been-baked-in-an-oven-says-israeli-emergency-worker-6A8bb0Tq56ytMO46OevOzy To be more specific, according to your article, the emergency medic saw a corpse with burn marks that he assumed were from an oven's heating element. He did not actually see where the corpse was found, nor did anyone tell him where it was found. It's also worth noting that this account had not yet been released when the flippant tweet was made. The public claim of babies in ovens was first made in a speech to the Republican Jewish Coalition in Las Vegas on Oct 25, and attracted a number of doubters given that it was a rather drastic claim that hadn't been previously publicly reported and was first revealed at a political conference. The emergency medic's account, on the other hand, was only released several days later, presumably with the specific intention of countering the doubters.
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Nov 2, 2023 18:45
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 18:47
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HonorableTB posted:I'm still of the opinion that the hospital strike was a PIJ rocket misfire rather than an Israeli airstrike simply because we have seen enough evidence of verified Israeli airstrikes on hospitals that I find it hard to believe that this one time they targeted a hospital, their super accurate guided weapons instead hit an adjacent parking lot instead of the intended hospital. To me the biggest evidence that the hospital wasn't hit by Israel is that the hospital is still standing to begin with. Israel has shown little to no compuncture about civilian targets and their weaponry is as accurate as you can get. It doesn't make sense why they'd miss this time instead of blowing up the hospital like they have been doing previously (even hitting the same hospital a few days earlier! But now they miss?? By that much of a margin?) If the hospital was the intended target then in any case even if the first missile WAS an Israeli miss, their doctrine is to use multiple munitions anyway, and the hospital wasn't hit with any follow up strikes. Israel is predictable in their brutality such that you can get an idea of who attacked what by how relatively destructive it is compared to known Israeli attacks. JDAM enhanced missiles have a CEP of 5m when guided by GPS, which is to say it hits within 5 meters of its target 50% of the time, and 30m when not. This website claims "A typical 155mm projectile has a CEP of 267 m, which means half of the rounds are expected to strike within 267 m of the target" (e: To be clear the article is about Ukrainian artillery, not Israeli, but I'm going to assume Israeli artillery is not significantly more accurate) so depending on what actual munitions were used, the impact site might very well be well within its CEP mannerup posted:what the counterprotestor is doing is completely legal even if he's an rear end in a top hat, you have no expectation of privacy in a public space while demonstrating and those 'protest marshalls' (dipshit kids playing wannabe cop in their reflector vests) are instigating for a confrontation just as much as the counterprotestor was. No they're not. Whether or not that dipshit was within his rights to walk through a protest, trying to keep some dipshit from harassing people and guiding him to a different exit is not in fact attempting to instigate a confrontation. TGLT fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 18:51
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B B posted:This is from several pages ago, but there's some additional context that was clearly left out of your framing of what happened in this incident: The person you're responding to is either doing a bit or a true believer who's been posting conspiracy bullshit, mostly unchecked, the whole thread, including making up hypothetical scenarios to feel aghast at. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 2, 2023 18:52
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Main Paineframe posted:To be more specific, according to your article, the emergency medic saw a corpse with burn marks that he assumed were from an oven's heating element. He did not actually see where the corpse was found, nor did anyone tell him where it was found. I think this is all objectively true - maybe a little pedantic but objectively true - but it doesn't answer the only question I have which is "how can anyone know this didn't happen."
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Nov 2, 2023 18:54
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Netanyahu seems like one of those people that might in the future be studied endlessly in the same way that Hitler has. History wont view him favorably, might find a pig or two, and he will be considered a monster. Paladinus posted:Looks like the IDF didn't encounter any significant resistance so far and managed to besiege Northern Gaza. I fear for the Palestinian civilians. The IDF is not going to bother telling anyone apart. North Gaza is going to turn into a mass grave yard. I said come in! fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 18:54
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Looks like the IDF didn't encounter any significant resistance so far and managed to besiege Northern Gaza. https://twitter.com/leventkemaI/status/1720109427712241974 Confirmed by Gazan authorities. https://twitter.com/ytirawi/status/1720126189975511217 Are Hamas betting on prolonged guerrilla warfare in the region?
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Nov 2, 2023 18:54
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 18:58
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It's a good thing to do when people are getting hosed over for being on the correct side of this issue.
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Nov 2, 2023 19:00
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Nail Rat posted:The person you're responding to is either doing a bit or a true believer who's been posting conspiracy bullshit, mostly unchecked, the whole thread, including making up hypothetical scenarios to feel aghast at. You're probably right, but I hadn't seen any posts about the wider context of the incident unless I missed them. mannerup posted:its a public space, they have zero right to police who can come and go from it. It absolutely is trying to start a confrontation when you throw on some reflector vest and play wannabe cop by surrounding people to intimidate them into leaving because they were filming It seems to me that the guy Edit: *This post initially claimed that the counter-protester was shouting at students who were protesting, but that was a mistake on my part. I am removing this inaccurate claim in a way that still shows that I was mistaken about some of the details. B B fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 19:01
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TGLT posted:No they're not. Whether or not that dipshit was within his rights to walk through a protest, trying to keep some dipshit from harassing people and guiding him to a different exit is not in fact attempting to instigate a confrontation. Maybe but following him and continuing to surround him, which is what appears to be happening in the last video, is certainly instigating a confrontation. But it's hard to say from he heavily select pieces of media we are being shown and like the other poster said, these are very very low stakes and probably don't deserve as much attention as they are getting. College age students on both sides can be assholes. People on both sides can be assholes. It's not particularly important either way unless something inherent to Palestinian or Israeli support promotes "assholery", which I don' think is the case.
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Nov 2, 2023 19:03
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HonorableTB posted:I'm still of the opinion that the hospital strike was a PIJ rocket misfire rather than an Israeli airstrike simply because we have seen enough evidence of verified Israeli airstrikes on hospitals that I find it hard to believe that this one time they targeted a hospital, their super accurate guided weapons instead hit an adjacent parking lot instead of the intended hospital. To me the biggest evidence that the hospital wasn't hit by Israel is that the hospital is still standing to begin with. Israel has shown little to no compuncture about civilian targets and their weaponry is as accurate as you can get. It doesn't make sense why they'd miss this time instead of blowing up the hospital like they have been doing previously (even hitting the same hospital a few days earlier! But now they miss?? By that much of a margin?) If the hospital was the intended target then in any case even if the first missile WAS an Israeli miss, their doctrine is to use multiple munitions anyway, and the hospital wasn't hit with any follow up strikes. Israel is predictable in their brutality such that you can get an idea of who attacked what by how relatively destructive it is compared to known Israeli attacks. it's not an adjacent parking lot, it's the courtyard in the center of the hospital compound, which they hit dead center
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Nov 2, 2023 19:04
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Pvt. Parts posted:Maybe but following him and continuing to surround him, which is what appears to be happening in the last video, is certainly instigating a confrontation. But it's hard to say from he heavily select pieces of media we are being shown and like the other poster said, these are very very low stakes and probably don't deserve as much attention as they are getting. College age students on both sides can be assholes. People on both sides can be assholes. It's not particularly important either way unless something inherent to Palestinian or Israeli support promotes "assholery", which I don' think is the case. Supporters of both sides can be assholes, but one side in particular is using these incidents to try to ruin people's lives, and, wouldn't you know it, it's also supporters of the side that's doing genocide.
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Nov 2, 2023 19:05
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mannerup posted:its a public space, they have zero right to police who can come and go from it. It absolutely is trying to start a confrontation when you throw on some reflector vest and play wannabe cop by surrounding people to intimidate them into leaving because they were filming Pvt. Parts posted:Maybe but following him and continuing to surround him, which is what appears to be happening in the last video, is certainly instigating a confrontation. But it's hard to say from he heavily select pieces of media we are being shown and like the other poster said, these are very very low stakes and probably don't deserve as much attention as they are getting. College age students on both sides can be assholes. People on both sides can be assholes. It's not particularly important either way unless something inherent to Palestinian or Israeli support promotes "assholery", which I don' think is the case. Well given that Harvard has been dealing with this lovely doxxing truck and there's one over in Columbia I'm gonna say the group trying to prevent a dude taking photos/footage of protestors and just generally being an rear end in a top hat are not, in fact, instigating a confrontation. That rear end in a top hat is. Seems to me they are trying to keep him from either escalating or gathering material for later retaliation.
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Nov 2, 2023 19:08
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 19:09
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mannerup posted:its a public space, they have zero right to police who can come and go from it. It absolutely is trying to start a confrontation when you throw on some reflector vest and play wannabe cop by surrounding people to intimidate them into leaving because they were filming You post as if you have no clue what you're talking about and have never been part of a protest movement. I do not mean to imply that you have no clue and have had no part... but your posts give that impression. Redirecting a douchebag isn't attempting to start a confrontation. That normally involves people dressed up in black holding flagpoles.
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Nov 2, 2023 19:12
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Paladinus posted:Looks like the IDF didn't encounter any significant resistance so far and managed to besiege Northern Gaza. I would expect so. It's what all the tunnels and stocked supplies are for. Might be a bad bet in this case since it's hard to do urban warfare if Israel simply flattens any point of resistance from the sky as soon as it's encountered. I don't know the construction background there, but I've wondered why when they blow something up there's no, I don't know, rubble pile? I'd be more used to seeing. It's like everything in Gaza just turns to dust when it's hit. Even in some places in Ukraine like Bakhmut where it's mostly a moonscape there's still lots of standing shells of buildings despite being continuously shelled/bombed for more than a year. Lack of reinforcement in the concrete due to the blockade? Or is the difference between larger air dropped bombs and not hundreds of thousands of arty shells?
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Nov 2, 2023 19:16
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Paladinus posted:
doesn't look like they have entered the heavily urbanized part of north gaza yet the fighting will be much more intense when/if they do, that's the area hamas should be trying to defend Typo fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 19:16
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 19:19
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mannerup posted:do you have proof that he was shouting at them? not even the protestors there say this is what happened. he was being targeted because he was filming protestors in a way that could identify them, had absolutely nothing to do with him being Jewish. the entire reason they targeted him was to intimidate him to stop filming in a public space. Looks like the "shouting" bit was a misreading on my part. I've edited my original post to acknowledge that I got some of the details wrong. I still hold that the counter-protester's behavior was aggressive and if anyone initiated a confrontation, it was him.
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Nov 2, 2023 19:20
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Oscar Wilde Bunch posted:I would expect so. It's what all the tunnels and stocked supplies are for. Might be a bad bet in this case since it's hard to do urban warfare if Israel simply flattens any point of resistance from the sky as soon as it's encountered.
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Nov 2, 2023 19:22
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mannerup posted:of course you are implying that, why even bother to pretend you meant otherwise? I absolutely am not implying that. I think you're being intentionally provocative, myself. But seriously, you write like you have no idea what you're talking about.
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Nov 2, 2023 19:23
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mannerup posted:of course you are implying that, why even bother to pretend you meant otherwise? We can't be inside your head, we can only say what you sound like.
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Nov 2, 2023 19:23
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Possibly because Ukraine has significant anti-air capabilities while Hamas does not? Russian bombardment generally has to occur via artillery while Israel can just freely send in planes to carpet bomb everything with much more powerful explosives. artillery delivers way more firepower than airstrikes
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Nov 2, 2023 19:28
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mannerup posted:its a public space, they have zero right to police who can come and go from it. It absolutely is trying to start a confrontation when you throw on some reflector vest and play wannabe cop by surrounding people to intimidate them into leaving because they were filming I don't know about America, but where I am what he's doing could be construed as an assault, in which case using reasonable force is permissible. And holding up cloth to non-violently shepherd him away would be reasonable force in the situation.
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Nov 2, 2023 19:28
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Typo posted:doesn't look like they have entered the heavily urbanized part of north gaza yet Yeah, it's clearly evident even on that map that the IDF are actively avoiding urban spaces, sticking to farmlands and open areas where it's more difficult to attack without exposing yourself. Even then, they're taking some significant casualties (as far as the risk-averse IDF go) just driving across grass. Hezbollah is also making an announcement tomorrow; they might be avoiding any deep fights until they know what their next move is.
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Nov 2, 2023 19:29
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Oscar Wilde Bunch posted:I don't know the construction background there, but I've wondered why when they blow something up there's no, I don't know, rubble pile? I'd be more used to seeing. It's like everything in Gaza just turns to dust when it's hit. not gonna claim this is the actual reason but when your country is really poor, say, or corrupt, or poor and corrupt, or (and im just spitballing here) some kind of, lets say, open air ethnoprison intentionally starved of infrastructural necessities? you get buildings that really do just turn into dust. lovely loving rushed construction and terrible, terrible, worse than you could imagine, hollow sand-filled lovely concrete, structures held up by bare minimum weight tolerances and a prayer-thin threshold between standard use and "becomes dust"
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Nov 2, 2023 19:30
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I don't know about America, but where I am what he's doing could be construed as an assault, in which case using reasonable force is permissible. And holding up cloth to non-violently shepherd him away would be reasonable force in the situation. most places in the US getting in someone's personal space is assault. upgraded to assault and battery if you touch them.
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Nov 2, 2023 19:30
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 19:32
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Israel has just provided incredibly solid evidence that Hamas terrorists were ordered to play with the severed heads of dead Israelis. The tweet contains audio only, but I am doing a  to prevent any auto-play accidents for people who don't want to hear the audio.https://twitter.com/Israel/status/1720101971430875584 Edit: Groovelord Neato posted:Was this posted sarcastically. Yes. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) B B fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 19:36
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B B posted:Israel has just provided incredibly solid evidence that Hamas terrorists were ordered to play with the severed heads of dead Israelis. The tweet contains audio only, but I am doing a It should go without saying that Israel fabricated this. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 2, 2023 19:39
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How is that incredibly solid evidence? The last couple recordings were complete bullshit. Please stop posting Israel’s consent manufacturing as proof until it’s been analyzed. Edit: I’m an idiot and the sarcasm flew over my head. Noise Complaint fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Nov 2, 2023 |
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Nov 2, 2023 19:40
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B B posted:Israel has just provided incredibly solid evidence that Hamas terrorists were ordered to play with the severed heads of dead Israelis. The tweet contains audio only, but I am doing a Was this posted sarcastically.
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Nov 2, 2023 19:41
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B B posted:Israel has just provided incredibly solid evidence that Hamas terrorists were ordered to play with the severed heads of dead Israelis. The tweet contains audio only, but I am doing a You monsters!
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Nov 2, 2023 19:43
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