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The Israeli military is ably demonstrating its ability to kill lots of civilians. It has not so far demonstrated ability to destroy Hamas and has very demonstrably failed in its promise to protect its people from Hamas. The modern Israeli state is predicated on the assumption that they can do whatever they want to the Palestinians and the Palestinians can do little to nothing to them, save those in the west bank to sell their labor at a steep discount, when Israel lets them. The walls, automated turrets, and iron dome will keep you safe. That assumption is shattered. How this is going to play out, who knows. But the idea that this is of little consequence to Israel or somehow plays into their hands - I don’t think you’ll find anyone of significance in Israel arguing that. Netanyahu is much less popular now than he was before oct 7, and that’s saying something. The promise of perfect fortress Israel is broken.
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Nov 3, 2023 00:23
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Hong XiuQuan posted:There are videos of fighters running up to and attaching explosives to tanks with 0 infantry support. You may not be seeing this but the Israeli ground forces are currently a running joke and the air forces are seen as only good enough to bomb hospitals. That doesn't particularly mean much, no, a few videos don't really make an overwhelming route. I think you're allowing your own perceptions to color what is actually happening, which is a violent bloodbath. I also think this is a pretty harmful viewpoint to have because it feels like it's playing into the whole 'we HAVE to bomb hospitals and destroy everything, our enemy is SO DANGEROUS" argument. Even if you're arguing that they're only dangerous because the Israeli military is so inept, it's still basically going "See, without doing this, Israel stands no chance! They're that helpless and weak!" Which is a bad position for Israeli in terms of perception but gives cover to people looking to justify their actions. Israel doesn't have to do this. They are not in a position where they are helpless. They got hurt because they were complacent and unprepared, but that doesn't change the fact they are absurdly well armed and an overwhelmingly powerful force. BUUNNI posted:You're proving his point without realizing it. This isn't really anything new for me is the thing. I am certain there are people who are going to remember it, but I just don't have enough faith that this stuff won't rebound the moment the 'worst' is over. Even if I'm wrong, I just don't have even an iota of faith that the blood of the innocents will be worth whatever grows from it in this situation. Hopefully I'm entirely wrong and this leads to a massive shift that gives an oppressed people back some liberty.
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Nov 3, 2023 00:24
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 00:25
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Hong XiuQuan posted:There are videos of fighters running up to and attaching explosives to tanks with 0 infantry support. You may not be seeing this but the Israeli ground forces are currently a running joke and the air forces are seen as only good enough to bomb hospitals. I literally could not believe that. There's a loving dude in a bright blue fake Adidas tracksuit hiding amongst dry brush not loving 20 meters from a Merkava and no infantry at all. Even the tank crews are buttoned up in open terrain, supposedly where tanks are most advantageous. And then his buddy not only puts a charge on the upper deck of Merkava but turns around and hits another Merkava with a PG-7VR. Young Freud fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 00:25
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Viller posted:B-b-but SomethingAwful has said for 3 weeks that Israel would lose if they attempted anything!!! Tunnel networks and an extremely dedicated population who believe that if they don't win this will end in their complete destruction. Israel has advanced through open farmland eating poo poo the entire way to cut off an overland route that they know Hamas doesn't need to use. It's a conscript army that is only running on revenge, which will eventually give way to self-preservation, if it hasn't largely already.
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Nov 3, 2023 00:25
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it's not particularly controversial to say that oct 7th was a successful operation vis a vis hamas' intentions in launching it. obviously the cost after the fact will be huge, but the actual attack was about as successful as it possibly could've been. 10/7 was the biggest single day loss of life in Israeli security forces in over 50 years. That Hamas pulled that attack off and collapsed an entire sector of IDF control is a colossal military failure. It may well prove to have been an ultimately pyrrhic sort of success once all is said and done, but that doesn't really change the facts of the first day.
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Nov 3, 2023 00:28
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Would a Palestinian Authority spokesman really know what Hamas is feeling about Iran and Hezbollah? Are you thinking of a different guy? Mousa Abu Marzook is a senior Hamas member, not Palestinian Authority.
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Nov 3, 2023 00:29
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ImpAtom posted:That doesn't particularly mean much, no, a few videos don't really make an overwhelming route. I think you're allowing your own perceptions to color what is actually happening, which is a violent bloodbath. I also think this is a pretty harmful viewpoint to have because it feels like it's playing into the whole 'we HAVE to bomb hospitals and destroy everything, our enemy is SO DANGEROUS" argument. Even if you're arguing that they're only dangerous because the Israeli military is so inept, it's still basically going "See, without doing this, Israel stands no chance! They're that helpless and weak!" Which is a bad position for Israeli in terms of perception but gives cover to people looking to justify their actions. Israel doesn't have to do this. They are not in a position where they are helpless. They got hurt because they were complacent and unprepared, but that doesn't change the fact they are absurdly well armed and an overwhelmingly powerful force. You're confusing what you perceive with what's being perceived across much of the Middle East. You think that what's happening is one military completely collapsing another. What's being perceived is that the Israeli Armed Forces are filled with cowards who have lots of equipment, no valour, who can only achieve victory against women and children and who are going to lose more people than they expected. You can argue whether or not that's the reality but that's absolutely a common perception. To put things in perspective, if a rag-tag bunch of fighters hiding out in tunnels can take a hiroshima and still pop out to go hand-to-hand with a Merkava, it's telling the region something. e: Young Freud posted:I literally could not believe that. There's a loving dude in a bright blue fake Adidas tracksuit hiding amongst dry brush not loving 20 meters from a Merkava and no infantry at all. Even the tank crews are buttoned up in open terrain, supposedly where tanks are most advantageous. Yeah, it was insane to see. You can easily imagine some late teen in the West Bank (or Lebanon or wherever) seeing this and thinking, "Wait, they're totally not invincible. Maybe I can get revenge for my tortured parents, for my ethnic cleansing, for my murdered sibling. Maybe I can fight." The longer Israel is pounding one of the poorest places on earth and the more armed forces casualties there are, the more likely this is going to harm their image and generate people willing to fight. e2: I should also say that the initial event, the fact that the US leapt into support, another widespread (yes, yes, could well be false) belief that the US is running major intel like an outsourced call centre etc is all providing a composite of: This is not the IDF of your grandfather's or father's foe. This is a country that would have trouble fighting a few paramilitary orgs on three fronts, let alone anyone equipped with proper anti-air defences. This makes the stuff with Ben Gvir all the worse. It's like self-immolation. Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 00:30
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Paladinus posted:Are you thinking of a different guy? Mousa Abu Marzook is a senior Hamas member, not Palestinian Authority. Nah, at the start of the article it uses an unnamed 'PA security official' as a source of Hamas' current mood
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Nov 3, 2023 00:41
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah that was a shift that was happening prior to October 7th (this poll was taken in March). I wonder what the effect of that attack was on US attitudes towards Israel? Why is it news that older Americans are less progressive and are more willing to overlook Israel's warcrimes than their younger counterparts? That same poll has an age breakdown that shows Israel losing support among the <35 cohort, which is the cohort that is going to matter the most electorally in the coming years. Israel completely hosed up. 
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Nov 3, 2023 00:45
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What that video with a tank doesn't show, from what I can tell, is a destroyed or even a damaged tank. So while it might be a great stunt for propaganda value alone, it remains to be seen how effective it really was, if at all.WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Nah, at the start of the article it uses an unnamed 'PA security official' as a source of Hamas' current mood Got it, your screenshot was a bit misleading. BUUNNI posted:Why is it news that older Americans are less progressive and are more willing to overlook Israel's warcrimes than their younger counterparts? That same poll has an age breakdown that shows Israel losing support among the <35 cohort, which is the cohort that is going to matter the most electorally in the coming years. Israel completely hosed up. Not sure what you're basing this on. The chart shows that even among younger voters, there was no swing away from support for Israel after Israel's disproportionate response to the Oct 7 attack. In fact, apart from Dems, support for Israel increased significantly. At best you can say that support for Palestine increased also. Paladinus fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 00:47
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Paladinus posted:What that video with a tank doesn't show, from what I can tell, is a destroyed or even a damaged tank. So while it might be a great stunt for propaganda value alone, it remains to be seen how effective it really was, if at all. 4.9% to 10.5% is a swing.
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Nov 3, 2023 01:01
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BUUNNI posted:4.9% to 10.5% is a swing. And 14% to 27.4%?
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Nov 3, 2023 01:10
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Herstory Begins Now posted:it's not particularly controversial to say that oct 7th was a successful operation vis a vis hamas' intentions in launching it. obviously the cost after the fact will be huge, but the actual attack was about as successful as it possibly could've been. 10/7 was the biggest single day loss of life in Israeli security forces in over 50 years. That Hamas pulled that attack off and collapsed an entire sector of IDF control is a colossal military failure. It may well prove to have been an ultimately pyrrhic sort of success once all is said and done, but that doesn't really change the facts of the first day. yeah hamas blundered into the biggest success possible because likud is like what about every single loving modern conservative establishment on the face of the planet earth became by now, the pants-wetting revanchist fraternity insisting that they are the STRONG ones who will keep you SAFE and PROTECTED from the eternal THREATS and UNDESIREABLES and you must CONSTANTLY vote for them and not the APPEASERS who won't keep you safe because they're too TIMID to ETHNICALLY CLEANSE but actually providing security instead of endlessly promising it and scapegoating people is zero percent what they're actually about, which is plundering the core competencies and functional agencies of their country to sell it out to capital and slowly becoming so corrupt and stupid that they're basically a whole party of matt gaetzii like this thread (or pretty much anywhere discussing israeli conflicts) will wrap itself up in the weirdest poo poo but at the very least it's helped reinforce a growing understanding that likud may have just successfully started the process of rotting out the foundations of the israeli state in a way they will be very hard pressed to reverse especially considering the general issue of cultlike orthodox groups that successfully got israel to give them the most crystal clear example of Wilhoit's Law i can even think of, where they can only be protected and not bound, and they just get to send everyone ELSE off on the genocide sprees they so desperately want
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Nov 3, 2023 01:12
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Paladinus posted:And 14% to 27.4%? Change in support for Palestinians and support for neither side is the takeaway from the poll, like the title of the table says.
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Nov 3, 2023 01:14
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Paladinus posted:What that video with a tank doesn't show, from what I can tell, is a destroyed or even a damaged tank. So while it might be a great stunt for propaganda value alone, it remains to be seen how effective it really was, if at all. A minority segment of independents started paying attention to the issue and broke right along expected percentages. Republicans sensed blood in the water.
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Nov 3, 2023 01:20
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BUUNNI posted:Change in support for Palestinians and support for neither side is the takeaway from the poll, like the title of the table says.
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Nov 3, 2023 01:33
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Is your argument that the 3% increase in support for Palestinians is more important than the 12% increase in support for Israel? It seems pretty catastrophic to me that even among younger voters support for Israel is now 3x more popular than support for Palestine. If there were any benefits for the Palestinians due to Hamas' atrocious attack they certainly did not involve increased public support in the US. More like Israel is not winning the perception war despite the fact that it has orders of magnitude more resources, funding and tech than hamas
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Nov 3, 2023 01:37
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It's not particularly important, because nobody expects the US to be on the right side of this issue, ever. Massive support for trivial domestic policies isn't enough to make it happen even at no expense to anyone; there is no universe where the USA stops supporting Israel. The polls could be 99% support for Palestinians, it's still not happening. The most you'll get is an article about how the president is a shrewd negotiator behind the scenes. Any plan predicated on the US doing anything is going to be a failed plan, because the US, to put it bluntly, only does stupid things. If anything is going to disrupt the status quo, it's going to be the US's enemies.
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Nov 3, 2023 01:40
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BUUNNI posted:More like Israel is not winning the perception war despite the fact that it has orders of magnitude more resources, funding and tech than hamas I really don't understand how you're getting to this idea from anything you've posted. As far as I can tell this is basically fully based on vibes.
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Nov 3, 2023 01:41
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Tunnel networks and an extremely dedicated population who believe that if they don't win this will end in their complete destruction. Israel has advanced through open farmland eating poo poo the entire way to cut off an overland route that they know Hamas doesn't need to use. It's a conscript army that is only running on revenge, which will eventually give way to self-preservation, if it hasn't largely already. Gaza is 25 miles by 9 ish miles, Israel is only occupying half of it so 12.5ish miles by 9ish miles. They are using 400 000 soldiers to do so. The same applies with Israel, they are fighting a war with an ennemy that literally wants to exterminate them and still say so openly to this day. People comparing this to Vietnam because "uh tunnels" are completely clueless. Landmass and ratio of soldiers involved doesn't compare at all.
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Nov 3, 2023 01:48
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Kagrenak posted:I really don't understand how you're getting to this idea from anything you've posted. As far as I can tell this is basically fully based on vibes. It's not "vibes" to see that Israel is losing US and international support because they keep killing innocent people.
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Nov 3, 2023 01:51
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Lid posted:https://www.jns.org/hamas-leaders-feel-betrayed-by-iran-and-hezbollah/ I think "angry and scared" is overselling it, a bit of exaggeration from JNS (which wouldn't be surprising one bit given its editorial slant). Certainly, Hamas is trying to pressure its allies to get more involved...but why wouldn't they? A major military power is coming down on their band of lightly-armed guerillas, they're not going to sit there and insist that they don't need any help. Doesn't mean that they're surprised or panicked or anything. That's all the more important because Israel seems to be aiming for a longer campaign than the usual few-day blitz. It's starting to look like they might be trying a siege of Gaza City rather than an actual invasion, and in that case international pressure will become very important.
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Nov 3, 2023 01:57
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Viller posted:The same applies with Israel, they are fighting a war with an ennemy that literally wants to exterminate them and still say so openly to this day. The IDF does not fight existentially. The IDF's ground forces are incredible, because they've basically learnt military doctrine wrong, as a joke. They literally hide behind their tanks, offering minimal if any infantry support. Their rations have gotten steadily worse because it's accepted that an IDF soldier is going to have Pizza Hut on speed dial. They barely simulate marches, physical training is at a bare minimum. When a tank gets hit the entire convoy immediately retreats. Two decades of acting as a police force has deteriorated their efficacy; many of these individuals were firing off 8 year old kneecaps out of fear of a rock three weeks ago, now they're getting hit with a Kornet from nowhere. They've worked backwards; instead of Infantry being the currency of war, they're the precious commodity. The reason the IDF is so built up around the Airforce and the Merkava's (now defunct) trophy system is that Israel itself has zero stomach for casualties. It's the ultimate result of a conscript army formed from an ethnosupremacy state that prides itself on its superiority; No Soldier Left Behind. You can, of course, argue that none of this matters; that the sheer number of Merkava's and soldiers will ultimately result in them shoving the people in front of them forward far enough to win, just don't assume it will be because Israel is fighting for its life; the IDF barely fights their eyelids to make it to breakfast hours at Burger King.
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Nov 3, 2023 02:04
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BUUNNI posted:It's not "vibes" to see that Israel is losing US and international support because they keep killing innocent people. It’s “vibes” to come to a conclusion that is completely contradicted by the data you yourself provided.
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Nov 3, 2023 02:09
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Viller posted:Gaza is 25 miles by 9 ish miles, Israel is only occupying half of it so 12.5ish miles by 9ish miles. They are using 400 000 soldiers to do so. The same applies with Israel, they are fighting a war with an ennemy that literally wants to exterminate them and still say so openly to this day. They aren't occupying half of Gaza yet, they haven't even attempted to enter the Gaza city proper or even Khan Yunis, and from all accounts they are extremely weary of having dismounted infantry inside Gaza. The number of troops assaulting Gaza is going to likely continue to be dictated by how many they can fit inside armour, which is suicidal in an urban battle, but genuinely looks like their strategy currently.
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Nov 3, 2023 02:10
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BUUNNI posted:It's not "vibes" to see that Israel is losing US and international support because they keep killing innocent people. Has any state come to a position that's unexpected of them at this point? Because as far as I can see, the reaction has been predictably permissive of Israel's atrocities. The data you yourself posted shows that the only thing that has happened in US domestic politics that people have solidified the sides they likely had before the conflict/Israel's ethnic cleansing escalated and most evidence points to the global response being along similarly predictable lines.
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Nov 3, 2023 02:19
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Seph posted:It’s “vibes” to come to a conclusion that is completely contradicted by the data you yourself provided. The trend seems to be that Israel is losing support and will hopefully continue to lose more as their war crimes ramp up. It is unfortunate that most Americans have few problems with funding muslim genocide and ethnic cleansing in the 21st century but it seems like the rest of the world is doing better than them in that regard. Again, the discussion started when it was mentioned that Hamas made a stupid mistake but by all measures public perception is shifting and it's not all in the favor of the zionists. Kagrenak posted:Has any state come to a position that's unexpected of them at this point? Can you clarify what this means? Like it's unsurprising that western nations have not come to the aid of Gaza? Obviously, because they have an interest in ensuring war and subjugation of the people they perceive as being lesser, as has been their MO since their inception. BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 02:22
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BUUNNI posted:The trend seems to be that Israel is losing support and will hopefully continue to lose more as their war crimes ramp up. It is unfortunate that most Americans have few problems with funding muslim genocide and ethnic cleansing in the 21st century but it seems like the rest of the world is doing better than them in that regard. I am seriously dumbfounded by the way you interpret that data. Can you explain your maths in more detail? How are numbers that show strengthened support for Israel even among younger voters (18.7% to 30.5% or 1.64x increase compared to 8.3% to 11.5% or 1.38x increase) actually show waning support for Israel? And that not even mentioning that among voters of all ages support for Palestine grew even less impressively compared to support for Israel. Are you sure you're reading the numbers correctly?
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Nov 3, 2023 02:30
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Kagrenak posted:Has any state come to a position that's unexpected of them at this point? Because as far as I can see, the reaction has been predictably permissive of Israel's atrocities. The data you yourself posted shows that the only thing that has happened in US domestic politics that people have solidified the sides they likely had before the conflict/Israel's ethnic cleansing escalated and most evidence points to the global response being along similarly predictable lines. Come on, does anyone remember any of the other times Israel has attacked Palestinians this being said by Yank tv channels? https://twitter.com/JoshuaPHilll/status/1720179318872064240?t=Hwj7rdj0IZFLVnr-LAlbrw&s=19 There's clearly been some shift in perception, even in the Imperial core, even among its ruling class mouthpieces.
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Nov 3, 2023 02:31
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Paladinus posted:I am seriously dumbfounded by the way you interpret that data. Can you explain your maths in more detail? How are numbers that show strengthened support for Israel even among younger voters (18.7% to 30.5% or 1.64x increase compared to 8.3% to 11.5% or 1.38x increase) actually show waning support for Israel? And that not even mentioning that among voters of all ages support for Palestine grew even less impressively compared to support for Israel. Are you sure you're reading the numbers correctly? We need more data in order to have a better idea on what US support will look like but thankfully not everyone in the US is onboard with the Zionists genociding the entirety of Gaza, and the trend is more pronounced with younger people. The data also stop before the biggest of Israel's warcrimes, which include bombing refugee camps and hospitals, which were widely publicized and even condemned by non-Israeli Zionist western leaders like Biden. Hopefully the trend of Israel losing support can continue. Irony Be My Shield posted:It is accurate to say that opinion is slowly moving back towards Palestine as Israel's campaign continues, but it's still nowhere near where it was and at the current rate of progress it would take months and months of Israeli atrocities to even return to pre-October 7th numbers. Judging by how inept Israel's military is I have faith that they can lose whatever support they managed to gain from the west in record time. BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 02:37
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The UK has also seen a 14 point shift in Israel's favour for what it's worth. From May 16th: https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Internal_Eurotrack_Israel-Palestine_230516.pdf  From October 26th: https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Internal_IsraelPalestine_231026_W.pdf  It is accurate to say that opinion is slowly moving back towards Palestine as Israel's campaign continues, but it's still nowhere near where it was and at the current rate of progress it would take months and months of Israeli atrocities to even return to pre-October 7th numbers.
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Nov 3, 2023 02:39
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The UK has also seen a 14 point shift in Israel's favour for what it's worth. In addition to which the move back to Israel going too far isn't also changing to Leave Palestine to its Politics. Most are thinking free Palestine but also Hamas has gotta go hence the support for civilians bit no support for the Palestinian government.
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Nov 3, 2023 02:44
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:They aren't occupying half of Gaza yet, they haven't even attempted to enter the Gaza city proper or even Khan Yunis, and from all accounts they are extremely weary of having dismounted infantry inside Gaza. The number of troops assaulting Gaza is going to likely continue to be dictated by how many they can fit inside armour, which is suicidal in an urban battle, but genuinely looks like their strategy currently. They have Gaza city completely sieged in 4 days with light resistance by any measures. Hamas has blended in the population and are using said population to try and get Israel to stop because they know the end is coming if they don't. The real wild card here is the Palestinian population, not if Hamas wants or can fight. If the population turns on Hamas in the hope of possibly electing their own government again in the future, then its over... And I can't imagine that they will willingly support those cowards for much longer. Hamas was used to get America's attention and Palestinian people are paying for it, how anyone can support Hamas is way beyond me.
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Nov 3, 2023 02:51
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Viller posted:They have Gaza city completely sieged in 4 days with light resistance by any measures. Hamas has blended in the population and are using said population to try and get Israel to stop because they know the end is coming if they don't. Buddy, they've been sieging Gaza for 16 years. They don't need the coastal road open to continue fighting. I can't believe you guys are falling for, 'they'll welcome us like liberators,' again. Palestinians know it's not Hamas killing their families, if they do turn on Hamas it will be after the war is over and Israel has been beaten. As for why Palestinians support the resistance forces https://twitter.com/missfalasteenia/status/1718978040422707692?t=w8WZhHa5emM4nFXk4UZAWA&s=19 WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 02:57
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Israel has sieged the Strip as a whole, but has never as far as I'm aware cut off Gaza City from the smuggling routes in the South this way. Seems like an open question whether Hamas has prepared for this move by digging tunnels between the North and South of their own territory. e: or if it does have those tunnels whether Israel has the means to cut them Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 03:01
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I would be shocked if they hadn't thought to dig tunnels between two major cities separated by large open farmland that serves as an obvious target for an Israeli armoured push. They don't even have to go all the way, just offer enough concealment to get there and back reliably. It's not as if the blue block of Israeli held territory on maps is an absolute border they have actually secured. Given they're fighting from tunnels in the area too, I'd take it as a given. WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 03:39
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Lid posted:In addition to which the move back to Israel going too far isn't also changing to Leave Palestine to its Politics. Most are thinking free Palestine but also Hamas has gotta go hence the support for civilians bit no support for the Palestinian government. the breakdown between humanitarian aid and military aid support is interesting among the younger cohort. Lots of old people seem to be pretty set on liking genocide for some weird reason. https://twitter.com/ryanstruyk/status/1720166262242742452
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Nov 3, 2023 03:46
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Wanna see a military aid to Hamas option in polls.
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Nov 3, 2023 04:17
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Viller posted:They have Gaza city completely sieged in 4 days with light resistance by any measures. Hamas has blended in the population and are using said population to try and get Israel to stop because they know the end is coming if they don't. There's roughly zero chance whatsoever that the population looks at the bombed-out ruins of their cities and thinks to themselves "You know whose fault this really is? Hamas! Let's go overthrow them!". They're well aware of who's actually dropping these bombs on them, and they know it's Israel, and they don't think that Israel's excuse for doing so holds any water at all. I can say this with a fair level of certainty because Israel and the US have spent the last fifteen years trying to get the population of Gaza to overthrow Hamas. That's the whole point of the Gaza blockade, the constant bombardments, the occasional invasions, and the general policy of collective punishment toward Gaza. It's always been paired with the openly-stated promise that all those miserable punishment policies would go away if the populace just rises up and overthrows Hamas. So far, they haven't bitten, and I don't see how this particular bloodbath is going to accomplish what the last few didn't. Even if the population's enthusiasm toward Hamas may have cooled a bit since they first voted Hamas into power back in 2008, they also haven't forgotten why they voted out Fatah, and they know better than to think they'll be allowed to elect their own government even if Hamas is ousted. Lastly, besieging Gaza City isn't actually all that impressive. If anything, it shows the IDF's reluctance to go head-to-head against Hamas. Rather than entering Gaza City, they've occupied the relatively sparsely populated and lightly defended rural land surrounding the city. They were able to do it so quickly precisely because it was an easy target. The hard part is urban warfare, and it seems to be something Israel is in no rush at all to start on. Irony Be My Shield posted:Israel has sieged the Strip as a whole, but has never as far as I'm aware cut off Gaza City from the smuggling routes in the South this way. Seems like an open question whether Hamas has prepared for this move by digging tunnels between the North and South of their own territory. It depends on how large and extensive the tunnels are. Even if they exist, do they have the capacity to effectively supply all of Gaza City's 500k+ population? And are they extensive enough to be protected from Israeli raids? Honestly, what I'm concerned is going to happen is that Israel will start letting aid into southern Gaza to generate plenty of photo-ops of Gazans lining up at food trucks and stuff, while using the siege to prevent any of that aid from making its way to Gaza City as Israel continues to starve it out. Will international pressure hold up when Israel is just starving out part of Gaza rather than all of it?
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Nov 3, 2023 05:06
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