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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, it's this. To be fair, I cannot imagine a better way to get a judge mad than personally attacking his clerk; in a certain very dark sense. In it, the defendant was representing themself against drug dealing charges. No surprise, he was woefully bad. At his best, his cross examinations did absolutely nothing for his case. At his worst, he supported the prosecution. It was like watching a major league baseball team playing a single five year old, knowing that in order for the team to get the win, all 9 innings needed to be played. The judge and police witnesses treated the defendant with kid gloves for every inane objection and question to get the game completed. It's hard for me to see any reasonable or unreasonable cause for an appeal to work. As jurists, we all groused about how it felt like such a waste of time, but understood our role. However, I saw a pretty big crack in compensation. Many of the other jurists were retired. My company has jury-specific PTO so I was covered. But as became clear that we were headed toward five days, one of jurists asked to be excused; his employer was NOT covering, his daily wage and the daily Federal compensation did not make up for what they were losing. Another told us that if the trial went to seven days, they would ask to be excused because that day was their "most important meeting of the year" for their job. We got it done in five days, thankfully. But it occurred to me that with jurists being a financial weak link (everyone else in court is being paid their standard wage/salary), running out time could be an exploit by defendants in our legal system. In their situation, defendants have the unlimited resource of time. Is it possible for the defense to delay enough in court to push jurists to "leave" (be it approved or raising enough stink to be ejected) enough to trigger a mistrial and parlay that into an endless series of them using the same technique?
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Nov 3, 2023 13:08
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Name Change posted:Trump can really only find lovely moron lawyers at this point. See also an entire legal team taking plea agreements to testify on stuff they agreed to do for him in office.
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Nov 3, 2023 13:19
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Charlz Guybon posted:Isn't Kise supposed to be good? He's the guy that got 3 million up front and got kicked from the Florida case by Donald because he recommended he give everything back? "Good" is subjective. Though as people had pointed out, if you deliberately antagonize the judge and piss them off enough to make them hostile, it makes it easier to appeal, and that's probably the ONLY way they can actually win the case at this point.
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Nov 3, 2023 13:52
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KKKLIP ART posted:Also what happens when some poor SOB that isn’t an alleged multi millionaire gets summoned to court, family he damned? You actually can get out of jury duty or testifying on a specific date in some circumstances if there legitimately is nobody to care for your child and kid is an infant (Ivanka's kids are between 7 and 13), but there is no way in the world that Ivanka Trump has no possible way of picking up her kids without her being physically there for one day. I would be shocked if the judge did anything meaningful with the request. Edit: I didn't realize that post was from yesterday and they already, as expected, shot down her request. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 14:18
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Randalor posted:"Good" is subjective. Though as people had pointed out, if you deliberately antagonize the judge and piss them off enough to make them hostile, it makes it easier to appeal, and that's probably the ONLY way they can actually win the case at this point. Anyone in here knowledgeable enough to clarify a point for me? Isn't Trumps defense focused on appeal and less on mitigating damages playing the right game in the wrong case? If there was a jury involved maybe the antics by Kise/etc would make more sense as well, I just don't see a tangible benefit other than "we gently caress around and hope the Judge fucks up." Correct me if I'm wrong but this whole trial is basically about damages and mechanics at this point right? Companies and corporate structures are all getting torched already, damages/fines/how it plays out is really the issue at hand. I'm sure there's a whole book to be written about how Trump is behind the scenes screaming at them to attack and delay until it just disappears, it just feels off to me how ineffective the defense arguments really are. I'm painfully aware that part of Trump's entire persona is to just bullshit and fail forward so maybe he's just not taking it seriously and expects it to be tied up in court until he's dead.
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Nov 3, 2023 14:27
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Retro42 posted:I just don't see a tangible benefit other than "we gently caress around and hope the Judge fucks up." That's pretty much it. Also, possibly some reverse psychology of hoping for the judge to go lenient so it doesn't look he is punishing them personally. There's not a real clear strategy here. I've never seen or heard of an attorney attacking the court staff on behalf of their client before. It is extremely weird.
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Nov 3, 2023 14:30
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Not being a lawyer, it seems like if it’s a clear cut “they purposefully did everything to piss off the judge as much as possible and it’s incredibly blatant and are now appealing based on that” then a reasonable appeals court should just thrown it right out (unless the judge really did go far above and beyond acceptable bounds in their reply) Otherwise “just act whacky and mean in court until they get mad and then you get a free appeals win” seems a bit too easy to go for when the evidence is stacked against you
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Nov 3, 2023 14:38
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:You actually can get out of jury duty or testifying on a specific date in some circumstances if there legitimately is nobody to care for your child and kid is an infant (Ivanka's kids are between 7 and 13), but there is no way in the world that Ivanka Trump has no possible way of picking up her kids without her being physically there for one day. I would be shocked if the judge did anything meaningful with the request. Basically, the courts will take into account whether you can afford to hire a nanny.
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Nov 3, 2023 14:38
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Cheesus posted:Is it possible for the defense to delay enough in court to push jurists to "leave" (be it approved or raising enough stink to be ejected) enough to trigger a mistrial and parlay that into an endless series of them using the same technique? From what I've read the antics being pulled by Trump's lawyers are just pushing conspiracy theories, and just whining that he isn't being fair when he slaps down arguments over already established facts. That may be what Trump is demanding they do, but doesn't seem likely to get anywhere, on appeal or otherwise.
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Nov 3, 2023 14:40
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Levitate posted:Not being a lawyer, it seems like if it’s a clear cut “they purposefully did everything to piss off the judge as much as possible and it’s incredibly blatant and are now appealing based on that” then a reasonable appeals court should just thrown it right out (unless the judge really did go far above and beyond acceptable bounds in their reply) It's basically this. They've already lost and are determining damages. The damages are already looking extremely bad as well. As long as you don't somehow end up in jail or disbarred, then you might as well take the crazy path that has a 0.5% chance of succeeding that just going down the normal way that has a 0% chance. There is also a weird part of the trial that is unique in that they are partially performing for public consumption for Trump and working as PR people and attorneys.
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Nov 3, 2023 14:50
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Or apparently trying to leverage it into a mistrial, but good luck with that
Edit: As that whole thread goes on, seems like they've only intent is making threats and noise (shocking) rather than actually filing any complaints of bias. Too bad slapping them with contempt right now would play into their hands, but sounds like he can likely censure them at the end of the trial like he did at the end of the first part for repeating frivilous arguments? Wayback fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 15:57
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Could someone clarify, just what is the role of the law clerk and why do they “pass notes to the judge”? I know nothing about courts. I almost got to testify in a medical hearing once as the physician on duty but the case was dropped. Is it normal for a law clerk to pass messages “hundreds of times a day?” What are the messages? I always end up wondering if the truth is somewhere in the middle, which got me imagining that like.. defense yells objection, Engeron goes silent for a minute looking around aimlessly, and then the law clerk passes a slip of paper under his elbow that says, “sustained” and then he replies to the court, “uh sustained!” I doubt that’s happening though. Come on with that. If that is what Habba and Co are perceiving as happening.. they’re not lucid.
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Nov 3, 2023 18:28
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Wayback posted:Or apparently trying to leverage it into a mistrial, but good luck with that Someone claiming to be a lawyer on r/law said that they thought using the clerk as a part of the defenses trial strategy would absolutely not work on an appeal. They aren’t the first to attack a judge or their staff and try to claim a mistrial and the appeals courts not going to be tricked by any of this nonsense. I think it’s almost certainly the case that big orange boss man can’t be wrong and since he’s been called to the carpet for attacking the clerk the lawyers are now on the hook to make trump right that the clerk is out to get him. Personally, I doubt she’s done anything at all that they are claiming. It’s just Cohn/Stone/Bannon maximum fuckery.
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Nov 3, 2023 18:29
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Cheesus posted:
Theoretically maybe but in practice very few trials (at least few criminal trials) take more than a few days, and for the really big big cases that they know are going to take many days, they will deal with all that in advance and select jurors who they know are going to have the time and seat alternates also so that potential issues are covered. That said gunning for hung jury mistrials can absolutely be a valid tactic. It won't win a case but it can be the best option you have. Sometimes you'll get a better offer after a mistrial, sometimes they'll just make you try it again the next week.
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Nov 3, 2023 18:30
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Cimber posted:Did anyone think of her poor kid left on the street corner when she was jetsetting around the world as a senior advisor to the President? The high functioning senior advisor to the president who help negotiate with world leaders on topics of profound import to the world is unable to manage child care for a half day event that she’s known about for weeks to months? gently caress I hate these people and their idiotic nonsense. Edit: Also apparently Eastman has lost his bar hearing and now they are looking at aggravating factors. Murgos fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 18:35
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I don't think there's any grand seventeenth dimensional legal chess strategy involved in this. Donnie Dumbfuck got called out and told something by someone else that took a position of authority over him. As a malignant narcissist he is loving PISSED. Volcanically, apocalyptically furious, that someone dared to tell him what to do. Somewhere, because of that, he had a narcissistic injury raging screaming fit and demanded blood. He wanted blood, he was going to attack someone, someone had to pay, he needed to prove he was on top again. There was absolutely nothing at all in the world more important to his ego than lashing out and hurting someone, somehow. The judge himself was probably priority target number 1 but that either didn't happen or he didn't want to do it or whatever. Personally I put it down as someone in the room with him re-directed that anger. Lashing out at and attacking someone they view as beneath them is another valid, self-satisfying response for narcissists and people around him, consciously or not, have probably adapted to his rage and learned how to re-direct it. So the clerk was chosen as a target and now Donnie is going to spin up whatever reality between his ears is necessary to support his position that the clerk deserves punishment, he is a truth-telling and righteous individual proving to the world once again how RIGGED and STOLLEN everything is and so on and so on.
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Nov 3, 2023 18:45
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https://twitter.com/GeorgeTakei/status/1720474560321978836 So uhh...does this count as giving aid and comfort to people who insurrected? Ask for a Colorado friend interested in the 14th amendment for a school report. No reason really...
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Nov 3, 2023 18:48
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Blind Rasputin posted:Could someone clarify, just what is the role of the law clerk and why do they “pass notes to the judge”? I know nothing about courts. I almost got to testify in a medical hearing once as the physician on duty but the case was dropped. Is it normal for a law clerk to pass messages “hundreds of times a day?” What are the messages? I always end up wondering if the truth is somewhere in the middle, which got me imagining that like.. defense yells objection, Engeron goes silent for a minute looking around aimlessly, and then the law clerk passes a slip of paper under his elbow that says, “sustained” and then he replies to the court, “uh sustained!” In my extremely basic understanding, the clerk is sort of the judge's secretary and/or executive assistant. If the judge needs to know something that requires significant research, they can pass it off to the clerk without interrupting their judging (and eliminate the multi-minute silence while everyone is held up). They can also do this ahead of time so there's no delay at all. If the judge gives a verbal order, the clerk will write and publish the boilerplate legalese that makes it official. The clerk also manages all the piles of paper involved in a case so the judge doesn't have to have all that up on their bench doing it themselves. They pass notes because most court proceedings involve a third party talking nonstop haveblue fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 18:50
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Blind Rasputin posted:Could someone clarify, just what is the role of the law clerk and why do they “pass notes to the judge”? I know nothing about courts. I almost got to testify in a medical hearing once as the physician on duty but the case was dropped. Is it normal for a law clerk to pass messages “hundreds of times a day?” What are the messages? I always end up wondering if the truth is somewhere in the middle, which got me imagining that like.. defense yells objection, Engeron goes silent for a minute looking around aimlessly, and then the law clerk passes a slip of paper under his elbow that says, “sustained” and then he replies to the court, “uh sustained!” A Law Clerk is a lawyer (or law school student) who is basically a legal aid to the judge. They will do legal research to prep them for hearings, organize the case into notes for them, and be on call while the case is ongoing to clarify points of law for the judge so he or she can focus on the proceedings. It is generally a very distinguished position and one that many high-quality lawyers started their careers in.
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Nov 3, 2023 18:53
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I think the media angle they're going for is that because law clerks don't sit and pass notes with the judge on episodes of  , the only explanation for what's going on is that it is highly unusual and inappropriate, the judge is incompetent and easily manipulated, and the law clerk is an anti-Trump Wormtongue.
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Nov 3, 2023 19:14
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Blind Rasputin posted:Could someone clarify, just what is the role of the law clerk and why do they “pass notes to the judge”? I know nothing about courts. I almost got to testify in a medical hearing once as the physician on duty but the case was dropped. Is it normal for a law clerk to pass messages “hundreds of times a day?” What are the messages? I always end up wondering if the truth is somewhere in the middle, which got me imagining that like.. defense yells objection, Engeron goes silent for a minute looking around aimlessly, and then the law clerk passes a slip of paper under his elbow that says, “sustained” and then he replies to the court, “uh sustained!” Clerks and staff attorneys are basically lawyers who do the actual grunt work while the judge is on the bench. Staff attorneys generally do it outside of the courtroom and clerks inside/both. When a judge needs a schedule brought up, his clerk is on his side with access to the case management system and records. He also passes off questions or references where they need to look up legal information or other inquiries to the clerk so that the courtroom doesn't come to a standstill when they need to check something. The law clerk will also be responsible for prepping the judge's files and writing basic research briefs related to cases. Edit: Beaten, but everyone pretty much said the correct thing.
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Nov 3, 2023 19:15
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The best part in her Trump fueled rant here is claiming that "These children have been brought in away from their families for doing nothing wrong". These 40ish aged innocent children. https://twitter.com/4Mischief/status/1720215746813325818
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Nov 3, 2023 19:16
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Cimber posted:https://twitter.com/GeorgeTakei/status/1720474560321978836 I want somebody in the MSM to ask this fucker if he recently enlisted. Because he sure does salute an awful lot for a civilian.
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Nov 3, 2023 19:26
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bird food bathtub posted:I don't think there's any grand seventeenth dimensional legal chess strategy involved in this. Donnie Dumbfuck got called out and told something by someone else that took a position of authority over him. As a malignant narcissist he is loving PISSED. Volcanically, apocalyptically furious, that someone dared to tell him what to do. Somewhere, because of that, he had a narcissistic injury raging screaming fit and demanded blood. He wanted blood, he was going to attack someone, someone had to pay, he needed to prove he was on top again. There was absolutely nothing at all in the world more important to his ego than lashing out and hurting someone, somehow. It's not a complex or smart chess gambit, it's a desperate checkers hail marry as you stare at your last piece. This trial is all but over, and the only way they might not losing the money laundering foundation of their grift is if the judge gets crazy mad and fucks up big. Trump is 100% loosing his poo poo and demanding they attack. However it also happens to be true that in their current role as sycophantic pettifogges this is also the "best" long shot play. It at least allows them to maybe, theoretically, possibly wriggle out of this one for a few more months. At the same time, if they fail to make the judge jump the bench and begin beating them with his gavel, they'll have at least helped Donny pump up what's left of his Empire of Grift: Scamming MAGA/Q for donations. See, nothing stops the deepstate swamp from victimizing your favorite President. Such a strong, unbeatable, lion of a man can't be stopped, but the only way to save him is for you to send him the balance of your savings account. It's for America, and God!
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Nov 3, 2023 20:06
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OgNar posted:The best part in her Trump fueled rant here is claiming that "These children have been brought in away from their families for doing nothing wrong". The children that are all the same age or older than she is? Right, that's a winning argument.
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Nov 3, 2023 20:07
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Gyges posted:It's not a complex or smart chess gambit, it's a desperate checkers hail marry as you stare at your last piece. This trial is all but over, and the only way they might not losing the money laundering foundation of their grift is if the judge gets crazy mad and fucks up big. The risk for the attorneys, of course, is that they end up sanctioned. Which should probably happen at some point if things keep going as they are.
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Nov 3, 2023 20:25
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Ms Adequate posted:The idea of even trying to make hay out of the law clerk performing the exact and precise duties of a law clerk is bonkers, it's like insisting something untoward is taking place because a lawyer is advocating for their client. quote:A second Trump attorney, Alina Habba, leaped to Kise's defense. Oh, that's going to well for them. Insulting the judge is always a pro strategy.
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Nov 3, 2023 20:31
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Why shouldn't they?
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Nov 3, 2023 20:33
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The lawyers have also reached the "find out" stage. https://twitter.com/kaitlancollins/status/1720518317218185341
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Nov 3, 2023 20:57
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Gyges posted:See, nothing stops the deepstate swamp from victimizing your favorite President. Such a strong, unbeatable, lion of a man can't be stopped, but the only way to save him is for you to send him the balance of your savings account. It's for America, and God! Our donations are helping our bigliest, wettest President fight for America, but I'm not sure our savings accounts alone will be enough. We should use all of our available credit to take out loans and spend it on
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Nov 3, 2023 21:30
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Ynglaur posted:The risk for the attorneys, of course, is that they end up sanctioned. Which should probably happen at some point if things keep going as they are. They’ve been sanctioned once and now that the judge has gagged them I expect they will be finding out about second sanctions.
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Nov 3, 2023 21:34
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OgNar posted:The best part in her Trump fueled rant here is claiming that "These children have been brought in away from their families for doing nothing wrong". gently caress man, that is terrible. imagine someone deliberately trying to separate children from their families as an explicit policy of punishment. they'd have to be a real loving monster edit: i really do hate these motherfuckers so much. gently caress
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Nov 3, 2023 21:40
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look, the point is those notes might contain derogatory statements about trump. if there's even a 1% chance we have to take it as a certainty that this law clerk, the most powerful unelected person in that courtroom, is passing notes calling treuymp names and encouraging the judge to rule against him. what else could the notes possibly say??
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Nov 3, 2023 21:52
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Every note is actually just a drawing of Trump's hands, with the text "Lol, so small" written on them.
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Nov 3, 2023 22:09
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Cheesus posted:During my jury duty in August, I had a cynical thought and wondered if it passes any muster from the legal professionals around here. I was a trial lawyer for fifteen years. The number one way to avoid this is to ask the jurors if they have any upcoming commitments that would affect their service. We would always have a pretty good idea of how long a case would take, so we'd use that general idea. For our bigger cases, your instincts are right. We would get jurors who worked for employers like the school district or big hospitals, places that would pay jurors for jury duty. We had a general idea of which employers did this, and we'd ask the potential jurors if they worked for someone we didn't know. The people getting paid by the hour or by the job, especially with kids, we would sort of shuffle off to DUI trials. We'd also do this sometimes with specialists that would have to cancel a bunch of clients or offered a special service as well. Like we had the city's only pediatrician as a potential juror once and her clients waited months to see her. I just kicked her off the jury rather than inconvenience the patients. I kicked a fire captain off during wildfire season too. DUIs lasted just a day or maybe two. As citizens, we get to participate in our democracy by serving on a jury, so if even one or two days was hard for someone they'd have to just suck it up. Criminal defense attorneys are permitted to use any strategy not prohibited. They are constitutionally required to increase their client's odds of winning.
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Nov 3, 2023 22:39
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Looks like an appeals court has issued a freeze on the Chutkan gag order.
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Nov 3, 2023 23:05
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Blind Rasputin posted:Could someone clarify, just what is the role of the law clerk and why do they “pass notes to the judge”? I know nothing about courts. I almost got to testify in a medical hearing once as the physician on duty but the case was dropped. Is it normal for a law clerk to pass messages “hundreds of times a day?” What are the messages? I always end up wondering if the truth is somewhere in the middle, which got me imagining that like.. defense yells objection, Engeron goes silent for a minute looking around aimlessly, and then the law clerk passes a slip of paper under his elbow that says, “sustained” and then he replies to the court, “uh sustained!” The Artificial Kid fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 23:19
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BigHead posted:
My concern here is that they aren’t increasing their client’s odds of winning by attacking a clerk. Probably the opposite. And they aren’t really helping the odds of an appeal either. I think it’s public theater to throw the integrity of the court into question.
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Nov 3, 2023 23:22
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:My concern here is that they aren’t increasing their client’s odds of winning by attacking a clerk. Probably the opposite. And they aren’t really helping the odds of an appeal either. I think it’s public theater to throw the integrity of the court into question. They're playing the lotto, because they have nothing else to do.
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Nov 3, 2023 23:36
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Zotix posted:Looks like an appeals court has issued a freeze on the Chutkan gag order. Are you sure it’s not an administrative stay? Which is a brief paise while they decide if they are going to take it. You need to show, “a substantial likelihood of success on the merits” to get a stay on appeal and irreparable harm. Trumps not really being irreparably harmed by not being able to poo poo talk witnesses for a few days while the appeals court considers the case.. Any reporting on who’s on the panel? Edit: I’ll answer my own questions it’s an administrative stay and the judges are Millett, Pillard, and Garcia. Which I don’t think are trump appointed federal society nuts. https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cadc.40232/gov.uscourts.cadc.40232.1208568105.0_1.pdf quote:The purpose of this administrative stay is to give the court sufficient opportunity to consider the emergency motion for a stay pending appeal and should not be construed in any way as a ruling on the merits of that motion. The judges have ordered all the briefs be submitted by the 17th which is fast. If they thought that somehow presidents might have magical abilities to disrupt constitutional court proceedings and intimidate witnesses against all laws and precedent I don’t think they would be moving that fast. Murgos fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 23:42
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