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Pvt. Parts posted:If Hamas knew that ambulance = invincible then what do you as an IDF commander just let them play that card over and over? This is the dilemma every unpopular army has had to contend with when facing irregulars. The usual answer is to develop a rapport with the public, and send in your most reserved and least psychopathic soldiers to locate and deal with the irregulars, and you repeat both of these until the irregulars are too unpopular to house themselves in civilian buildings and vehicles. If that results in deaths on your side guess what? That's the point of soldiers. Congratulations on being the disposable meat of the army. The soldiers signed up to die, the children in the ambulance did not. The issue with the IDF, and it's the same issue that results in them leveling half of Gaza, is that they don't want to lose soldiers. They value the lives of soldiers more than the second-class citizens they administrate-by-proxy. If you have the option to kill 500 civilians and a 10% chance of maybe nailing a Hamas member, why not take that option instead of sending in troops? It's not like those civilians can vote, it's not like the West is going to stop you. When you have the option to indiscriminately bomb anything that may or may not be a threat to you at some point in time now or in the future, with zero repercussions, it turns out that you get very liberal with what constitutes a valid target.
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Nov 3, 2023 21:23
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This thread is awesome today, definitely very functional stuff going on (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 3, 2023 21:27
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Neurolimal posted:This is the dilemma every unpopular army has had to contend with when facing irregulars. The usual answer is to develop a rapport with the public, and send in your most reserved and least psychopathic soldiers to locate and deal with the irregulars, and you repeat both of these until the irregulars are too unpopular to house themselves in civilian buildings and vehicles. If that results in deaths on your side guess what? That's the point of soldiers. Congratulations on being the disposable meat of the army. The soldiers signed up to die, the children in the ambulance did not. More to the point, even in the unlikely case that the IDF isn't blatantly lying, a couple of Hamas dudes in an ambulance inside of Gaza is not an immediate threat to anything on Israeli territory. The IDF has air supremacy; they could absolutely afford to just let it go and monitor it from the air until a better opportunity to deal with the dudes presented itself, or an actual immediate threat somehow manifested itself.
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Nov 3, 2023 21:28
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Noise Complaint posted:So to be clear, you're saying, "It is good strategy to bomb hospitals and ambulances." Sure, yeah, if you are unable/unwilling to find nuance between two poles and are dominated by emotional thinking, that's what I'm saying, yup. Nice bad faith btw, I guess dropping context that hard is OK as long as it's against the Big Bad Guys. e: Neurolimal posted:This is the dilemma every unpopular army has had to contend with when facing irregulars. The usual answer is to develop a rapport with the public, and send in your most reserved and least psychopathic soldiers to locate and deal with the irregulars, and you repeat both of these until the irregulars are too unpopular to house themselves in civilian buildings and vehicles. If that results in deaths on your side guess what? That's the point of soldiers. Congratulations on being the disposable meat of the army. The soldiers signed up to die, the children in the ambulance did not. Appreciate that you responded with something thought provoking instead of just calling me names. This right here is essentially the crux of the current invasion IMO, and what I want to see is Israel being way way more transparent with their operations. I'm not sure how actually feasible this is given the nature of war, but plenty of material should be made public by them. If there are claims of combatants getting into an ambulance, show me that intel. Maybe it doesn't have to be today or this week but even months down the line, release it. Justify yourself, and show how careful you have been to avoid killing innocents. e: TGLT posted:You can toss around all the prose you want, at the end of the day you're a shriveled excuse for a human being defending the bombing of ambulances and children with the equivalent of "well Dale down at the bar said..." Are you done having a fit? Everyone else has already yelled at me, you are adding nothing. PS if words cause you to lose your cool this hard, the C-SPAN thread might be a better choice (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Serotoning fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 21:29
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Pvt. Parts posted:dominated by emotional thinking, that's what I'm saying, yup. I don't think you're the one that's free of emotions, evidently
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Nov 3, 2023 21:30
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All of Israel is an illegal settlement and all its citizens settlers. Same as the US, Canada or Australia etc. That Israel has active pioneers pushing forward the frontier doesn't make those settlers any different to those in Tel Aviv or Auckland. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 3, 2023 21:32
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Pvt. Parts posted:Sure, yeah, if you are unable/unwilling to find nuance between two poles and are dominated by emotional thinking, that's what I'm saying, yup. You can toss around all the prose you want, at the end of the day you're a shriveled excuse for a human being defending the bombing of ambulances and children with the equivalent of "well Dale down at the bar said..."
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Nov 3, 2023 21:38
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Bombing ambulances is evil and demonstrates a total apathy toward civilian life, if not outright contempt for it.WhiskeyWhiskers posted:All of Israel is an illegal settlement and all its citizens settlers. Are Palestinian citizens also settlers? Edit: post underneath this one is really good. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 21:38
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Pvt. Parts posted:Bombed what hospital? Bombing a hospital is mentioned nowhere in that tweet or in the link you provided. They talk about bombing a convoy of ambulances leaving the hospital. Even if there wasn't a single civilian in that entire convoy of ambulances, even if they were all packed tighter than a clown car with of heavily-armed Hamas fighters, that still would not justify bombing a convoy of ambulances on the grounds of a hospital. Why? Well, this is an important distinction to make (and one that modern militaries like to pretend doesn't exist). Under international law, the standard for blowing up civilian stuff isn't "is there possibly an armed combatant in or near it?", it's "is it absolutely militarily necessary to kill that clearly identifiable armed combatant right now using aerial bombs? can you really not use a different method or wait for them to leave?". The laws of war don't say you get to do whatever the gently caress you want as long as an enemy combatant dies as a result. When you're doing things that are likely to endanger civilian life (like airstriking an ambulance convoy on the grounds of a hospital in a major urban area), you have to have a strong case that you had to kill that specific enemy combatant right then and there using that specific method. That you couldn't wait till later or attack them elsewhere, that you couldn't use a different method, that you couldn't just let them go because they weren't immediately threatening anything important. Under that standard, this ambulance strike unquestionably fails. Regardless of whether there were Hamas militants in the ambulance or not, the ambulance didn't pose any immediate threat to Israel. The IDF could just as easily have tracked that ambulance to its destination, watched the people get out, and then arrested or bombed any armed fighters when they got out of the ambulance. Especially since this convoy was going to be traveling south out of Gaza City, toward territory that's already been occupied by Israeli troops who could have stopped the convoy and searched the ambulances. If Israel had reliable intel about Hamas fighters in the ambulance before it even left the hospital, then they had plenty of time to pull together an interception force to apprehend these hypothetical Hamas fighters, rather than just calling in an airstrike before the convoy's even out of the city and then bombing it again while it's on the hospital grounds. Main Paineframe fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Nov 3, 2023 |
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Nov 3, 2023 21:40
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Pvt. Parts posted:If Hamas knew that ambulance = invincible then what do you as an IDF commander just let them play that card over and over? If I had good intel, which is key, I would absolutely not hesitate to disarm the enemy through such a disguise. You would also need to show that evidence, or be branded a war criminal. That's where we are today.
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Nov 3, 2023 21:40
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"The terror ambulance from hell is coming straight for us!"
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Nov 3, 2023 21:47
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Pvt. Parts posted:Sure, yeah, if you are unable/unwilling to find nuance between two poles and are dominated by emotional thinking, that's what I'm saying, yup. I'll be completely objective on this for reasons to never, under any circumstance, bomb a hospital, ambulances, or medical staff: 1; it's defined as a war crime. Not that the International Criminal Court has any teeth, but if we're to ever have a just world we'll need that to matter some day. 2; if it's excusable to bomb these things because the enemy occupying them are "terrorists" as opposed to "regular" combatants, then literally for every war going forward both sides will just call their enemy terrorists to justify any and all action against them. That precedent erases any possibility of having laws in war, so let's not do that. 3; if you want to have any chance in hell of turning the populace against the enemy you are targeting, killing obvious civilian targets is 100% counter-productive to that purpose. The populace is already hostile towards you, so they will never believe any evidence you give that "no actually that ambulance was full of terrorists". They will just see what is supposed to be a safe place being deliberately targeted and move further away from your cause. 4; if you tell your enemy these are valid targets, they will target your own hospitals, medics and ambulances in kind. In war, if your enemy is doing something that you're not letting yourself do, you are giving yourself a disadvantage. Which would be dumb, so don't expect the enemy to play by rules you don't play by yourself. So no, doesn't matter if the IDF has hard video evidence that the ambulances were full of only Hamas fighters. It was a war crime and a strategically bad idea to destroy them.
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Nov 3, 2023 21:48
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Yeah, one of the biggest categories of "war crimes" are "things we all realized are always a bad idea even if they seem like a good idea at the time" and attacking marked ambulances is one of those things.
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Nov 3, 2023 21:51
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Imagine if Hamas had bombed half a dozen hospitals indiscriminately.
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Nov 3, 2023 21:53
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, one of the biggest categories of "war crimes" are "things we all realized are always a bad idea even if they seem like a good idea at the time" and attacking marked ambulances is one of those things. It can protect both sides in many ways as well. For example, how it's a war crime to use a flag of truce for cover to launch an attack. It's not just a deceptive way to kill an enemy under the guise of a non-combatant, if the enemy believes that you aren't going to honor a ceasefire then they're just going to start shooting any of your soldiers that try to surrender. Similarly, if you treat medics as enemy combatants then they are not under obligation to give you medical care if you end up wounded.
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Nov 3, 2023 22:00
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, one of the biggest categories of "war crimes" are "things we all realized are always a bad idea even if they seem like a good idea at the time" and attacking marked ambulances is one of those things. How is that determined, as people will just point at Article 19 and say "unless they're being used for attacks" and then apparently all bets are off. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Separately, Piers Morgan did another, much longer interview with Bassem Youssef, close to 2 hours. It's hard to summarize such a long interview but it's much less sarcastic than his last one, and goes a lot into context on both Israeli and Palestinian sides, and is pretty relevant to recent discussion in this thread. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqjO5Z9Lt_M BUUNNI posted:Imagine if Hamas had bombed half a dozen hospitals indiscriminately. Imagine if they tried to claim literally anyone was in there who justified it.
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Nov 3, 2023 22:00
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Not directly about the fighting on the ground, but there's a bit of a long read from Haaretz about the persecution Arab-Israelis are suffering from in the current climate. It's nothing surprising (depressingly) but I thought it might be of interest to this thread. Bleak, though.quote:Mohand Taha, a stand-up comic and influencer from the village of Kabul, in the Lower Galilee, has notched up some 900,000 followers on his Instagram account. Usually, he’s busy disseminating “soft” content consistent with his occupation as a comedian – online skits, improvisations and commercials for energy beverages. But after the Hamas attack on southern Israel four weeks ago, and as the aerial bombing of the Gaza Strip has intensified, Taha has departed from custom. Full article is here if I managed to circumvent the paywall correctly.
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Nov 3, 2023 22:01
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I think it is worth highlighting the textbook trolling going on. Prt. Parts begins with an inflammatory statement, this is obviously not an argument in good faith.Pvt. Parts posted:Bombed what hospital? Bombing a hospital is mentioned nowhere in that tweet or in the link you provided. They talk about bombing a convoy of ambulances leaving the hospital. Pvt. Parts posted:Nope, it's just basic reading comprehension, actually. Pvt. Parts posted:Sorry for trying to work through a complex topic in real time in the Debate and Discussion forum, dude. Thanks for stopping by! Pvt. Parts posted:Sure, yeah, if you are unable/unwilling to find nuance between two poles and are dominated by emotional thinking, that's what I'm saying, yup. Pvt. Parts posted:Are you done having a fit? Everyone else has already yelled at me, you are adding nothing.
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Nov 3, 2023 22:04
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https://twitter.com/netanyahu/status/1720400053347438719 Bibi keeps upping the fascist call backs in his unhinged twitter rants, claims Israel is actually 1,000 years old  quote:The foundation of the existence of the thousand-year-old nation of Israel is the constant struggle for our lives and freedom.
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Nov 3, 2023 22:05
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BUUNNI posted:Imagine if Hamas had bombed half a dozen hospitals indiscriminately.
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Nov 3, 2023 22:23
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Has anyone ever asked Israeli command why they don't take pictures of targets hiding at hospitals and show that to the world as proof of the Hamas cowards instead of just mulching a parking lot full of ambulances resulting in a bunch of dead kids?
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Nov 3, 2023 22:30
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BUUNNI posted:https://twitter.com/netanyahu/status/1720400053347438719 What the gently caress is he talking about? 1000 years ago, that land was constantly being traded between various Arabic dynastic empires and then the Crusaders.
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Nov 3, 2023 22:33
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Young Freud posted:What the gently caress is he talking about? 1000 years ago, that land was constantly being traded between various Arabic dynastic empires and then the Crusaders. He's thinking forward, into the future. He envisions a thousand-year Israeli state. ...now that I mention that, sounds kinda familiar?
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Nov 3, 2023 22:36
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Pvt. Parts posted:Bombed what hospital? Bombing a hospital is mentioned nowhere in that tweet or in the link you provided. They talk about bombing a convoy of ambulances leaving the hospital. The fact that this loving vile post doesn't merit any kind of mod action, but WhiskeyWhiskers posted:All of Israel is an illegal settlement and all its citizens settlers. Same as the US, Canada or Australia etc. That Israel has active pioneers pushing forward the frontier doesn't make those settlers any different to those in Tel Aviv or Auckland. this one does is absolutely disgusting. I.A.2. Make serious arguments. Don't be half-kidding, bullshitting, or otherwise making arguments you are not willing to actually defend. So throwing your hands up and saying "uhh no the hospital wasn't bombed just the ambulances outside the hospital" is a serious argument? Just Asking Questions about how maybe the people in loving ambulances were possibly terrorists isn't a serious argument. WhiskeyWhisker's argument is not unserious. It isn't bullshit. You can certainly disagree with it or ask them to elaborate on their reasoning, but to just blanket ban that argument while allowing genocidal freaks like Pvt Parts to post their filth here really shows your true colors mods.
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Nov 3, 2023 22:37
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Rebel Blob posted:I think it is worth highlighting the textbook trolling going on. Prt. Parts begins with an inflammatory statement, this is obviously not an argument in good faith. Under the current moderation rules we are not allowed to refer to any of this. We are required to entertain users who do this, forever.
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Nov 3, 2023 22:39
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pro starcraft loser posted:Has anyone ever asked Israeli command why they don't take pictures of targets hiding at hospitals and show that to the world as proof of the Hamas cowards instead of just mulching a parking lot full of ambulances resulting in a bunch of dead kids? Why bother? It’s not like anybody with the power to stop them ever does anything about it.
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Nov 3, 2023 22:39
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Jaxyon posted:How is that determined, as people will just point at Article 19 and say "unless they're being used for attacks" and then apparently all bets are off. "Used for attacks" is a very different thing from what Israel is claiming, though. If an ambulance is barrelling full speed down the streets of Tel Aviv while a militant in the passenger seat randomly spraying bullets everywhere, then sure, you've got to attack that ambulance to save lives. If an ambulance is driving straight at a Merkava and there's a militant with an anti-tank weapon riding on top of the ambulance and taking ain at the tank, then sure, the soldiers in that tank have a reasonably compelling military need to shoot at that ambulance. But in both of those examples, the threat is immediate and imminent. These hypothetical ambulances pose a direct threat to Israeli lives. Not in a vague "every living terrorist is a potential future dead Israeli" sense, but rather in a very direct "the people in that ambulance are shooting at us right now" sense. And Israel hasn't even tried to pretend that the stakes were anywhere near that high.
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Nov 3, 2023 22:51
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https://x.com/theintercept/status/1720531677007475106?s=20 Now your are having doubt.
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Nov 3, 2023 23:15
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Discendo Vox posted:Under the current moderation rules we are not allowed to refer to any of this. We are required to entertain users who do this, forever. We could just collectively mute the person and then enforce solidarity around that. I’ve said it in CE and I’ll say it here: if the institutions of governance are either unable or unwilling to meet the need they ostensibly exist to meet, collective action is required. Read Lenin, folks! We all have the power to stop reading bad posts, a better thread is possible.
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Nov 3, 2023 23:36
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If you look at it from the Israeli perspective then it is perfectly logical to say that the ambulance convoy was filled with hamas terrorists because thats how they view every Palestinian by default. Blowing up ambulances is extremely routine for the Israeli air force. Knowing these two things how do you arrive at "the ambulances were actually hamas troop transports this time out of all of the times"
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Nov 4, 2023 00:10
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HonorableTB posted:If you look at it from the Israeli perspective then it is perfectly logical to say that the ambulance convoy was filled with hamas terrorists because thats how they view every Palestinian by default. Blowing up ambulances is extremely routine for the Israeli air force. Knowing these two things how do you arrive at "the ambulances were actually hamas troop transports this time out of all of the times" What militia wouldn't base their logistics and command structures around incredibly frantic and crowded medical facilities that come under routine attack?
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Nov 4, 2023 00:39
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hadji murad posted:What militia wouldn't base their logistics and command structures around incredibly frantic and crowded medical facilities that come under routine attack? Me, a militant belonging to an organization that has created an underground tunnel network more extensive than many cities' transit systems: today i think we should take the ambulance convoy when moving our rockets around
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Nov 4, 2023 00:52
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The IDF did some intelligence work today and raided a HAMAS stronghold. https://x.com/JoeTruzman/status/1720501575624618111?s=20 https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/1720510546464682141?s=20 https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/1720513404031439094?s=20 Not sure if there was anybody there. The video from the raid makes it look abandoned. BTW, sure doesn't look like a tunnel complex under a hospital.
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Nov 4, 2023 01:03
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Pvt. Parts posted:But I just can't see most IDF leaders waking up and going "ok let's bomb some drat ambulances today!" as a policy.
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Nov 4, 2023 01:13
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Young Freud posted:Not sure if there was anybody there. The video from the raid makes it look abandoned. If it was abandoned, it was probably in a hurry if they didn't take the plans with them. Or the plans were left there deliberately. Paladinus fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Nov 4, 2023 |
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Nov 4, 2023 02:04
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Has any country with guided weapons not used them against a hospital or ambulance at some point?
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Nov 4, 2023 02:27
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Young Freud posted:The IDF did some intelligence work today and raided a HAMAS stronghold.
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Nov 4, 2023 02:56
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Brucolac posted:I don't understand, where is the material from the English-speaking wing of Al Quaeda? Probably the Hamas guys took that with them. They carry that on their bodies at all time, in case one of the IDF soldiers is the player character and wants to take on a side quest.
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Nov 4, 2023 03:07
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https://x.com/michael_galant/status/1720464842589393073?s=46&t=28YlM44p-De4KwabvJCtcw Reduced to numbers.
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Nov 4, 2023 03:24
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Muscle Tracer posted:They carry that on their bodies at all time, in case one of the IDF soldiers is the player character and wants to take on a side quest. All the CDs are of Osama's anime collection
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