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The sad thing is Serini was completely correct, even a minimal amount of teamwork would've ensured that the Scribblers would've been able to extinguish Xykon. Lirian killed his mortal body, Dorukan likely would've destroyed him if he hadn't been baited into a duel, Soon nearly destroyed him and Redcloak. Girard probably would've been able to put up a way better fight if not for V's Familicide.
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Nov 3, 2023 17:40
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SKULL.GIF posted:The sad thing is Serini was completely correct, even a minimal amount of teamwork would've ensured that the Scribblers would've been able to extinguish Xykon. Yup, they all had specific exploitable weaknesses because of their various blind spots. Soon too. Since Miko was a product of the same order of paladins that he thought would provide the perfect defense. It works thematically that she would be the one to sabotage it even if unintentionally.
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Nov 3, 2023 17:45
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JuniperCake posted:Yup, they all had specific exploitable weaknesses because of their various blind spots. Soon too. Since Miko was a product of the same order of paladins that he thought would provide the perfect defense. It works thematically that she would be the one to sabotage it even if unintentionally. Soon's plan got sabotaged by Miko because Miko became distrustful of Shojo due to him being a deceitful bastard. A more strict adherence to paladin codes by the leader of the sapphire guard could have prevented that. Though then we'd have a different story where the inflexible nature of the paladin oaths would have seen them be used and abused by the various noble factions of Azure City. Maybe Miko still falls and slashes the gate, cause she'd be manipulated by Kubota or something.
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Nov 3, 2023 18:48
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JuniperCake posted:Yup, they all had specific exploitable weaknesses because of their various blind spots. Soon too. Since Miko was a product of the same order of paladins that he thought would provide the perfect defense. It works thematically that she would be the one to sabotage it even if unintentionally. The fatal weakness of Soon's Gate wasn't Miko. Rather, it was the fact that the legion of ghost-martyr oathspirits was kept so top-secret that even the paladins manning the final defense line didn't know about it (only Hinjo knew, and he was on the walls). Which was a fantastically dumb idea, because those paladins themselves tried to destroy the Gate as soon as poo poo looked bad. If something had suddenly distracted Xykon at the last moment, or if O-Chul had been a little faster than Xykon had expected, then the Gate would have been destroyed before Soon and his paladin ghost army could even appear. Similarly, the only reason Girard's defenses were completely wiped out by the Familicide was because he only trusted family., and therefore never recruited a single person who wasn't blood-related to him. If there had been even a single non-Draketooth in that pyramid, the Gate wouldn't have ended up completely undefended. Ultimately, what doomed both Gates was trust issues. By highly limiting who was trusted with important parts of the Gate defenses, both Girard and Soon ensured that when things inevitably went wrong, no one was around who was in any position to properly do something about it. Similarly, Serini almost doomed Kraagor's Gate (and the world) by flatly refusing to trust anyone besides monsters.
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Nov 3, 2023 20:04
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Vizuyos posted:The fatal weakness of Soon's Gate wasn't Miko. Rather, it was the fact that the legion of ghost-martyr oathspirits was kept so top-secret that even the paladins manning the final defense line didn't know about it (only Hinjo knew, and he was on the walls). Which was a fantastically dumb idea, because those paladins themselves tried to destroy the Gate as soon as poo poo looked bad. If something had suddenly distracted Xykon at the last moment, or if O-Chul had been a little faster than Xykon had expected, then the Gate would have been destroyed before Soon and his paladin ghost army could even appear. And interestingly there's an argument Lirian and Dorukan ended up with the best overall defenses because they trusted each other at the very least. Not enough to stop Xykon, but he was stuck in Dorukan's dungeon for a long time with completely unfettered access and never managed to fully penetrate the final protections. They both still ultimately failed because relying on one other person wasn't the full ticket, but thematically we have both of their gates be significantly bigger obstacles for Xykon than Girard or Soon's were.
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Nov 3, 2023 20:20
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JuniperCake posted:Girard seems really happy to help Serini. It's cute. Well, he was most social minded of the scribble, he must've been glad to have at least one of them he could still be friendly with.
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Nov 3, 2023 20:42
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Zore posted:And interestingly there's an argument Lirian and Dorukan ended up with the best overall defenses because they trusted each other at the very least. Not enough to stop Xykon, but he was stuck in Dorukan's dungeon for a long time with completely unfettered access and never managed to fully penetrate the final protections. Then again they were early obstacles. Between Lirian and Soon Xykon and Redcloak not only levelled up several times and sprang up a goblinoid army, but also Xykon became a lich. Lirian would have no chance against late level Team Evil.
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Nov 3, 2023 20:52
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I do like the additional reminder that yes, Soon really was the only one who gave a poo poo about the oath in the end. I think that’s been implicit for a while but in this case it’s front and centre.
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Nov 3, 2023 21:11
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Cattail Prophet posted:I find it interesting that of the non-Soon members, Lirian appears to be the most unenthused about helping out, especially since she has thus far been almost entirely a blank slate of a character if you haven't read SoD. Earlier, Serini did mention that she would design the place otherwise, if Lirian co-operated.
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Nov 3, 2023 21:38
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Gun Jam posted:Earlier, Serini did mention that she would design the place otherwise, if Lirian co-operated. Sounds like it would have been if she had cooperated more, then. She probably only came up for a limited time or something.
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Nov 3, 2023 21:46
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Remember all this time ago The others just didn't get that to Soon, his word, was a big deal.
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Nov 4, 2023 05:37
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Also the Final Dungeon looks like Dorukan's because Dorukan built it for her.
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Nov 4, 2023 22:50
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Also the Final Dungeon looks like Dorukan's because Dorukan built it for her. I love the idea that Dorukan had terminal Engineer Brain when it came to dungeon design. Just pure function over form, no sense of aesthetics because who cares for murder mazes?
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Nov 5, 2023 02:19
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Tree Reformat posted:I love the idea that Dorukan had terminal Engineer Brain when it came to dungeon design. An elegant Rococo or Gothic dungeon would take longer and cost more. Brutalism is the way to go when you want soul crushing design on a budget.
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Nov 5, 2023 03:16
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I think one could reasonably assume Lirian's nature critter army defense plan was set to continue effectively without her. Eternal cycles of intelligent woodland spirits and stuff. It's Serini's and Dorukan's that look dependent on their makers. Maybe Dorukan was researching that good lich concept.
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Nov 5, 2023 23:13
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maybe, but Lirian's Gate was by far the worst of them, a single flame strike cast anywhere in her glade was enough to take it down that's not even a book spoiler, Redcloak mentions it off-hand in the main comic somewhere Dorukan's Gate actually held Xykon at bay with a simple ward, it had defenses that outlasted him.
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Nov 5, 2023 23:24
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SuperKlaus posted:I think one could reasonably assume Lirian's nature critter army defense plan was set to continue effectively without her. Eternal cycles of intelligent woodland spirits and stuff. It's Serini's and Dorukan's that look dependent on their makers. Maybe Dorukan was researching that good lich concept. Soon's was also hideously dependent on him. Literally one generation in and it turned into a quagmire of backstabbing nobles and underhanded double-dealing. That Kubota, a man who literally cavorted with devils, was not too far off from seizing control of the gate is a pretty big condemnation of its long-term efficacy.
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Nov 5, 2023 23:35
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AnoHito posted:Soon's was also hideously dependent on him. Literally one generation in and it turned into a quagmire of backstabbing nobles and underhanded double-dealing. That Kubota, a man who literally cavorted with devils, was not too far off from seizing control of the gate is a pretty big condemnation of its long-term efficacy. On the other hand Oots runs off of Narratavium and so there's always a Kubota within a heart beat away from taking the gate or if they succeed, a Hero also in range to wrest control back before anything bad happens.
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Nov 6, 2023 00:22
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Even with all of the problems with Soon’s protection, it still took the big bad assembling a giant nation-conquering Mordor army to even crack the throne room so I wouldn’t call his defenses weak or bad.
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Nov 6, 2023 00:32
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AnoHito posted:Soon's was also hideously dependent on him. Literally one generation in and it turned into a quagmire of backstabbing nobles and underhanded double-dealing. That Kubota, a man who literally cavorted with devils, was not too far off from seizing control of the gate is a pretty big condemnation of its long-term efficacy. Kubota didn't even know the Gate existed because of the Sapphire Guard's oath. I suppose he might have been informed upon taking the throne somehow but probably not because I doubt they'd spill the beans to the only guy in the whole city who dressed in purple.
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Nov 6, 2023 03:48
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Establishing a stable competent succession takes significant skill to pull off, if your society doesn't have elections. It's difficult enough that I don't hold it much against any of the Scribblers, who have the additional headache of having to keep this all secret.
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Nov 7, 2023 17:48
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Dimebags Brain posted:Even with all of the problems with Soon’s protection, it still took the big bad assembling a giant nation-conquering Mordor army to even crack the throne room so I wouldn’t call his defenses weak or bad. Yeah, it's the one that came the closest so far, so...
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Nov 7, 2023 19:08
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:maybe, but Lirian's Gate was by far the worst of them, a single flame strike cast anywhere in her glade was enough to take it down I think that's being kind of unfair to Lirian. In SoD, you learn that the true defense of her gate was the magic-suppressing micro-organisms she developed. Team Evil managed to circumvent it, but it wasn't easy by any means. Personally, I think Team Evil would have been able to steamroll Draketooth's Gate with ease. Team Evil had its exact location and a general expectation of the defenses within, gleaned from Serini's interactions with Girard in her diary. Plus, Xykon is an anti-caster build, and especially of note, he chose Superb Dispelling as one of his epic spells. That, plus being immune to mind-affecting attacks as a lich? Heck, he probably could have soloed the whole dungeon.
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Nov 7, 2023 19:27
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Come to think of it, Eugene is also an illusionist making him next to useless against a lich
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Nov 7, 2023 19:35
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ikanreed posted:Come to think of it, Eugene is also an illusionist making him next to useless against a lich
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Nov 7, 2023 19:38
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Huh, I just noticed something. In the flashback panels of Serini conferring with her old comrades, I noticed they are all wearing an orange ring. Wonder what that's for? Serini isn't wearing it in the other panels.
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Nov 8, 2023 15:02
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:Huh, I just noticed something. In the flashback panels of Serini conferring with her old comrades, I noticed they are all wearing an orange ring. Wonder what that's for? Serini isn't wearing it in the other panels. Huh, even Soon has one. That's a weirdly significant detail not being mentioned so it'll be something interesting. Probably not something that will bite the Order in the rear end, but something that will bring things together...
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Nov 8, 2023 15:56
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It was a fashion at the time. Like an onion on the belt.
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Nov 8, 2023 16:36
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:Huh, I just noticed something. In the flashback panels of Serini conferring with her old comrades, I noticed they are all wearing an orange ring. Wonder what that's for? Serini isn't wearing it in the other panels. Interesting catch. It seems like it has to either be, or have been very significant. The boring answer is that it might just be a thing that pings the other rings when the bearer dies, and since Serini is the last one standing, there's no point wearing it anymore. But Girard's pyramid clearly had an indicator showing the status of the other gates, which is the important part, so that makes it seem less likely.
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Nov 8, 2023 23:46
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I checked Start of Darkness and there's no signs of the rings there, but that was before the art style change...
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Nov 9, 2023 03:41
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:Huh, I just noticed something. In the flashback panels of Serini conferring with her old comrades, I noticed they are all wearing an orange ring. Wonder what that's for? Serini isn't wearing it in the other panels. drat, that's subtle but clearly deliberate.
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Nov 9, 2023 04:39
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Maybe it was just a point in time when they were all married. Poor late Mr. Toormuk.
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Nov 9, 2023 05:56
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Soon lost his wife before they even became a party, and the marriage of a paladin is unbreakable even by death itself, so
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Nov 9, 2023 07:25
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TheAceOfLungs posted:Maybe it was just a point in time when they were all married. Poor late Mr. Toormuk. Serini would be the type of person who’d post about how the amount of cruelty makes her believe that real monsters are people, there is no way
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Nov 9, 2023 08:52
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HisMajestyBOB posted:drat, that's subtle but clearly deliberate. 100%, especially with that one panel Soon shows up in. He's mostly obscured by his guards but Rich made sure the hand that had the ring was still clearly visible. There's absolutely something going on with that.
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Nov 9, 2023 14:58
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Probably some kind of communication device or how they're able to know when another member dies?
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Nov 9, 2023 15:37
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Plausible, but the main issue I see with that theory is that they explicitly aren't communicating with each other outside of Serini (except Lirian and Dorukan). But I also can't think of anything else. Maybe the rings are connected with the gates somehow? I double checked and Girard's skeleton in 846 is not wearing a ring (though part of one hand is covered by a speech balloon).
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Nov 9, 2023 16:42
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Serini is also not wearing a ring in 1227, where she gets attacked by Xykon. She also explicitly says that she had a bunch of magic items on her that neither Xykon nor the trolls who rescued her took. So if she had the ring in the past, there's no evidence that she doesn't still have it.
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Nov 9, 2023 18:54
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Hope Rich has a good Thxgiving
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Nov 22, 2023 07:04
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1291 - Threadbare
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Nov 22, 2023 15:06
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