Vernii posted:

The IDF has admitted to losing ~20 KIA and ~260 wounded in Gaza (which can be a range anywhere from being treated with first aid to 'technically alive') so clearly the weaponry being used against Israeli armor is effective.

Vernii posted:

The IDF has admitted to losing ~20 KIA and ~260 wounded in Gaza (which can be a range anywhere from being treated with first aid to 'technically alive') so clearly the weaponry being used against Israeli armor is effective.

Paladinus posted:

The question is how much ammo do Hamas have and what losses do they suffer? If, unlike previous incursions, the IDF intend to 'finish the job' even if it costs them several thousand soldiers, provided Hamas' allies don't try to invade Israel, it's not like Hamas can win a war of attrition. ~20 KIA may sound dramatic for the usually casualty-averse IDF, but objectively it's a drop in the ocean. Also, it looks like Israel's wounded can be quickly moved to hospitals inside of Israel. If the IDF can also extract and repair damaged tanks, unless a tank is destroyed completely, even if Hamas damage 60 tanks a month, Israel could be able to rotate them for years on end. There is simply no way for Hamas to effectively Israel's military infrastructure or disrupt their logistics with the weapons they have, while they also don't have much infrastructure beyond the improvised assembly lines for their cheap rockets and, well, the tunnels.

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

So you agree that Hamas has no power to seriously affect idf, as it suffers minuscule casualties, and that a big cool explosion, filmed, doesn’t actually mean anything but tinnitus happened inside?

Herstory Begins Now posted:

no one on any side is suggesting that hamas has had literally zero success against Israeli vehicles, but at least against the tanks hamas and other groups have recorded a lot of attacks and there is a very conspicuous absence of evidence of those attacks successfully damaging or destroying a significant number of israeli tanks (at least post 10/7, they destroyed and damaged apparently more than a dozen on 10/7). I'm not suggesting anything specific be read into that since there are about a billion reasons why that could be the case or why that could merely appear to be the case. With that said, destroyed tanks are incredibly conspicuous and if hamas was having a particularly significant success rate in their attacks on tanks there'd be a lot more damaged or destroyed tanks showing up.

Stringent posted:

Is there any particular reason to consider whatever information is coming out of the IDF to be more reliable/less propagandist than whatever's coming out of Hamas? Not a rhetorical question, I'd really like to know if there's a rationale behind it.

Irony Be My Shield posted:

It seems unlikely to me that Hamas can literally walk up directly next to a working tank and place a grenade on it, but that the resulting burnt-out tanks are so perfectly defended that not a single person can get within line-of-sight to take a photo of one (and then the IDF sweeps up the wreckage extremely quickly? Or this zone of absolute control lasts indefinitely?). I'd also note that in the compilation video I saw there for a lot of them there is no evidence of the anti-tank crew retreating - you see them shoot, you see the explosion, and then the video cuts before the smoke clears.

Groovelord Neato posted:

Marenghi posted:

There's plenty of video evidence of IDF tanks getting smoked by tandem rockets.
Here's a supercut.

BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

That's in the active voice, right? Passive voice would be, like, "Many Casualties in Dense Neighborhood Were Caused by Airstrike, Gazans Say." I'm awed in a horrified way at how the NYT will dodge attributing responsibility while remaining in the active.

I'm sure they're losing some tanks and vehicles but these are like pinpricks in a larger context, and Partisan Girl is like Ben-Gvir or one of those far-right Israeli politicians posting airstrike compilations as evidence for how Israel is driving their enemies before them to the sound of the lamentations of their women. They want to believe they're going to win, or that part of the war itself is creating this impression of racking up the wins. Speaking of that, there's a whole genre of girl fans for militaristic regimes on Twitter. I saw one the other day who was Jewish (from Iran originally) who wants to nuke Iran and she'd post a lot of memes of Based Chad IDF soldiers grinning widely with cartoon missiles killing Hezbollah guys. That stuff freaks me out.

Vernii posted:

If you're trying to get into hypotheticals, Israel's political will and economy will collapse before that point, they don't have the ability to sustain thousands of losses. Military operations do not exist in a vacuum.

BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

That's in the active voice, right? Passive voice would be, like, "Many Casualties in Dense Neighborhood Were Caused by Airstrike, Gazans Say." I'm awed in a horrified way at how the NYT will dodge attributing responsibility while remaining in the active.

Marenghi posted:

There's plenty of video evidence of IDF tanks getting smoked by tandem rockets.
Here's a supercut.

https://x.com/Partisangirl/status/1721191298106093872?s=20

It makes sense for Israel to be recovering them. Palestine is fighting a guerilla war, they can't deny Israel access to areas, just attack them by ambush where they are weak.

Main Paineframe posted:

These aren't solo tanks driving around. They don't have infantry support, but they're moving in groups. The other tanks that are nearby might not notice a lone infantryman creeping up on one of them, but they'll sure as gently caress notice the explosion and start sweeping the area for threats. Rule 1 of being a guy with an anti-tank weapon is that you book it the gently caress out of there basically the instant there's any chance the tanks know where you are. And there isn't much indication that the IDF is sending significant forces into areas it's not planning to capture. They occupied the area around Gaza City, but we haven't heard about them doing much beyond that, just scattered raids and incursions.

If an IDF tank is damaged or destroyed, they're absolutely going to recover it if they can. And they have overwhelming firepower superiority and aren't aggressively pushing into territory they don't hold and don't plan to hold, so they typically can.

quote:

Use of the system as a target locator

The radar system of the Trophy technology searches, detects, and classifies incoming projectile risk. It feeds all data to the vehicle's onboard computer and also to an external network for data sharing among other supporting units.

This ability is able to alert both a specific vehicle's crew and the larger combat formation regarding such incoming threats, and the specifics of ‘shooter locations’ - makes this system highly effective for both single vehicles and by larger combat groups.

This data sharing and shooter location assist in the units combat effectiveness – allowing other assets to acquire the hostile target and not just a single armored vehicle. Trophy can identify if a threat will miss the targeted platform, in this case – it will not activate the countermeasure but provides shared location data, enabling rapid engagement by the full combat team.

Stanley Pain posted:

From those videos they are most likely shooting some form of HEAT rounds for the RPGs, and firing them at very close range. It should be effective vs. those tanks. I feel like the videos do cut off a bit abruptly, but I think it's more likely that the person filming came under fire moments after the tank getting hit.

https://roe.ru/eng/catalog/land-forces/strelkovoe-oruzhie/grenade-launchers/pg-29v/

Main Paineframe posted:

I'm not sure where that evidence would come from, aside from IDF soldiers (who are unlikely to be taking and posting photos of their own losses) and Hamas combatants (who are relying on stealth to carry out surprise attacks on tanks, and are therefore unlikely to stick around long enough to take photos).

If there was much urban combat going on, we'd probably see more combat footage turning up regardless, but from what limited info we have, the IDF is mostly operating in the sparsely populated agricultural areas surrounding Gaza City right now. Not a lot of spectators around.

As Ograbme pointed out, in an real warzone it's actually quite difficult to reliably know whether you took out an enemy vehicle or not. In the heat of battle, no one has time to sit around and wait to see just how much damage that explosion actually did. Overclaiming kills is pretty standard even among conventional militaries, especially when they don't win control of the territory being fought over and thus aren't able to confirm destroyed vehicles or prevent the enemy from recovering repairable vehicles.

I will say this much, though: if the IDF is sending in tanks without infantry support, then they are absolutely losing tanks, Trophy or no Trophy. Infantry support is a fundamental piece of tank doctrine for a reason. Even with newfangled top-of-the-line modern tech, tanks are still fundamentally vulnerable to infantry sneaking up on them with anti-tank weapons, and there's only so much that can be done to compensate for that weakness.

This does not mean that Hamas is slaughtering Israeli tanks en masse, of course. Even if Israel is taking losses, that doesn't mean the IDF is on the verge of defeat or anything like that.

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

No, it relies on the assumption that after a month the destroyed israeli tanks might be seen and documented by someone, there must be at least one, because everyone has a phone even in Gaza

So far no good, they sabotaged on the 7th and the IDF rolls on, Merkavas intact

Stanley Pain posted:

From those videos they are most likely shooting some form of HEAT rounds for the RPGs, and firing them at very close range. It should be effective vs. those tanks. I feel like the videos do cut off a bit abruptly, but I think it's more likely that the person filming came under fire moments after the tank getting hit.

HootTheOwl posted:

This thread seems to think that a destroyed or downed tank goes up in flames and there's black pillars of smoke like they're searching for a Pope, when the reality is much less cinematic.
In real life a tank just has a big hole in it, and the tank next to it drags it away

HootTheOwl posted:

This thread seems to think that a destroyed or downed tank goes up in flames and there's black pillars of smoke like they're searching for a Pope, when the reality is much less cinematic.
In real life a tank just has a big hole in it, and the tank next to it drags it away

Kunabomber posted:

i expect the top part to shoot up like a champagne cork and come crashing down

Paladinus posted:

The question is how much ammo do Hamas have and what losses do they suffer? If, unlike previous incursions, the IDF intend to 'finish the job' even if it costs them several thousand soldiers, provided Hamas' allies don't try to invade Israel, it's not like Hamas can win a war of attrition. ~20 KIA may sound dramatic for the usually casualty-averse IDF, but objectively it's a drop in the ocean. Also, it looks like Israel's wounded can be quickly moved to hospitals inside of Israel. If the IDF can also extract and repair damaged tanks, unless a tank is destroyed completely, even if Hamas damage 60 tanks a month, Israel could be able to rotate them for years on end. There is simply no way for Hamas to effectively Israel's military infrastructure or disrupt their logistics with the weapons they have, while they also don't have much infrastructure beyond the improvised assembly lines for their cheap rockets and, well, the tunnels.

Tuna-Fish posted:

Er. There are a lot of counterexamples for this from N-K and Ukraine. Tanks are absolutely full of explosives, and if you manage to set them off, the explosion will be gigantic. Turrets occasionally fly up 50 meters. Of course, Israeli tanks have much better compartmentalization and crew protection than Soviet-made ones. Still, the blowout panels mean that any ammunition detonation will be very dramatic-looking, even if the crew is fine.

TheWeedNumber posted:

Sick, there’s a boomer in the AO now.

https://x.com/centcom/status/1721271207260033230?s=46

Nm, just a SSGN

quote:

Palestinian telecommunications company Paltel said on Sunday that all communications and internet services have been cut again within the Gaza Strip.

"The main routes that were previously reconnected (were) cut off again from the Israeli side," it said.

quote:

National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir tried to downplay the phenomenon of deadly settler violence when the head of the Shin Bet Ronen Bar raised concerns at a recent cabinet meeting, Channel 12 reported Friday.

Ben Gvir, the leader of the far-right Otzma Yehudit party, reportedly asked why so much attention needed to be given to the “graffiti” Israeli youth are daubing on Palestinian property.

Upon hearing this, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu quickly shot down Ben Gvir and told him the settler violence is much more serious than that, Channel 12 reported.

The outlet said the premier implored security chiefs in the room to do more to combat settler violence.

According to Channel 12, Bar has alerted the war cabinet, wider cabinet, and the defense establishment about concerns of an eruption of violence in the West Bank, noting an increase in settler violence and clashes with Palestinians amid the ongoing Israel-Hamas war.

The report came hours after US Secretary of State Antony Blinken said that Israeli leaders had assured him that they will condemn attacks on Palestinian civilians and take action to curb the phenomenon and to hold perpetrators accountable.

“Extremist violence against Palestinians must be stopped,” he said. “We will be looking closely to ensure that our friends make good on that commitment.”

The US State Department said Blinken and war cabinet minister Benny Gantz discussed efforts to “maintain calm and stability in the West Bank,” during their Friday meeting.

Additionally, US President Joe Biden has urged Netanyahu during phone calls to ensure that Israeli authorities are preventing growing incidents of settler violence, fearing that spiraling tensions in the West Bank could significantly exacerbate the war, the Axios news site reported last week.

Israel’s Yesh Din rights group said Friday that there had been over 172 incidents of settler violence and harassment against Palestinians in at least 84 Palestinian towns and communities in the West Bank since Hamas’s savage and murderous assault on Israel on October 7, which sparked a war with the terror group.

An off-duty IDF soldier was arrested by military police on Sunday on suspicion of shooting dead Palestinian man Bilal Muhammed Saleh, who had reportedly been harvesting olives near the northern West Bank village of As-Sawiya on October 28. There have been no reports of other arrests.

According to the PA health ministry, some 130 West Bank Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces, and in some cases settlers, since October 7.

quote:

Far-right minister says nuking Gaza an option, PM suspends him from cabinet meetings
Heritage minister asks why lives of hostages more important than troops; Netanyahu: Comments ‘detached from reality’; meanwhile, Smotrich says Israel will control Gaza post-war

Heritage Minister Amichai Eliyahu said Sunday that one of Israel’s options in the war against Hamas could be to drop a nuclear bomb on the Gaza Strip, in comments that were quickly disavowed by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who also suspended the minister from cabinet meetings.

Eliyahu, a member of National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir’s far-right Otzma Yehudit (Jewish Power) party, was speaking in an answer to a question in a radio interview.

“Your expectation is that tomorrow morning we’d drop what amounts to some kind a nuclear bomb on all of Gaza, flattening them, eliminating everybody there…,” the Radio Kol Berama interviewer said.

“That’s one way,” Eliyahu responded. “The second way is to work out what’s important to them, what scares them, what deters them… They’re not scared of death.”

Eliyahu does not have any connection to the three-member war cabinet directing the war against the Hamas terror group, nor is he part of the broader security cabinet.

When it was pointed out to the minister that there are some 240 hostages currently held in the Gaza Strip, Eliyahu doubled down.

“I pray and hope for their return, but there is a price to be paid in war,” he said. “Why are the lives of the abductees, whose release I really want, more important than the lives of the soldiers and the people who will be murdered later?”

Eliyahu also voiced objection to allowing any humanitarian aid into Gaza, saying, “we wouldn’t hand the Nazis humanitarian aid,” and charging that “there is no such thing as uninvolved civilians in Gaza.”

He also backed retaking the Strip and rebuilding the Israeli settlements that existed there before Israel withdrew from the area unilaterally in 2005, and when asked about the fate of the Palestinian population, he said: “They can go to Ireland or deserts; the monsters in Gaza should find a solution by themselves.”

Eliyahu also said the northern part of the Strip has no right to exist, adding that anyone waving a Palestinian or Hamas flag “shouldn’t continue to live on the face of the earth.

Netanyahu was quick to reject Eliyahu’s claim that dropping a nuclear bomb on the Gaza Strip was a possibility.

“Amichai Eliyahu’s words are detached from reality,” Netanyahu said in a statement. “Israel and the IDF are acting in accordance with the highest standards of international law in order to prevent harm to uninvolved people, and we will continue to do that all the way to victory.”

Defense Minister Yoav Gallant also condemned the “baseless and irresponsible” remarks in a post on X, adding he was glad “these are not the people in charge of Israel’s security.”

Opposition Leader Yair Lapid called on Netanyahu to fire Eliyahu, branding his comments “a horrifying and insane remark by an irresponsible minister.”

“He offended the families of the captives [being held in Gaza], offended Israeli society and harmed our international standing,” Lapid said. “The presence of the extremists in the government endangers us and the success of the war goals — defeating Hamas and returning the hostages.

“Netanyahu must fire him this morning,” the opposition leader said.

National Unity leader Minister Benny Gantz, a member of the war cabinet, also attacked Eliyahu’s comments.

“Eliyahu’s unnecessary and irresponsible statement is detrimental to the path and values ​​of Israel, causes heavy political damage and, worst of all, adds to the pain of the families of those abducted from their homes,” he wrote on X, the social media site formerly known as Twitter.

MK Mansour Abbas, leader of the Arab Ra’am party, said that Eliyahu was echoing a sentiment expressed by other officials, and expressed concerns that his comments dehumanized Gazans.

“Eliyahu’s words about bombing Gaza with an atomic bomb were heard in different versions on the television screens from other people,” Abbas claimed on X.

“Dehumanization and collective punishment is the way to genocide and war crimes. There will be a day after the war — it is not the end of history and it is not Armageddon,” he wrote. “I am sure, and believe from the bottom of my heart, that there will still be peace and reconciliation between the two peoples.”

Amid the growing outrage, the Prime Minister’s Office announced that Eliyahu was suspended from cabinet meetings indefinitely. It was unclear if he would still be able to participate in phone votes.

Government ministers told the Ynet news site that the suspension was meaningless.

“This is a joke, there barely are any cabinet meetings anyway, and most of the work is being done in rounds of votes by phone,” an unnamed minister was quoted as saying.

A cabinet meeting scheduled for Sunday has been canceled, with no alternative date set.

Eliyahu later attempted to walk back his assertion, tweeting that “it is clear to all sensible people that the statement about the atom is metaphorical.”

“However, a strong and disproportionate response to terrorism is definitely required, which will clarify to the Nazis and their supporters that terrorism doesn’t pay,” he wrote.

“This is the only formula that democratic states can use to deal with terrorism. At the same time, it is clear that the State of Israel is committed to doing everything possible to return the hostages safe and sound,” Eliyahu wrote.

The far-right minister has a history of incendiary and offensive comments.

Earlier this year he called Bank of Israel governor Amir Yaron a “savage” and said he was causing damage to the State of Israel and should be fired, after Yaron raised the alarm about government’s controversial judicial overhaul program.

In April he accused top security officials of “rebelling” against the coalition.

Eliyahu is the scion of a prominent national-religious family — the grandson of Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu, a former chief Sephardic rabbi of Israel, and the son of Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu, the rabbi of the northern city of Safed and a leading far-right ideologue.

Eliyahu’s father has been known for controversial statements and rulings on Jewish law, including one that forbade the rental or sale of Jewish-owned property in Safed to Arabs. He has also criticized the Reform movement, the LGBTQ community, and women serving in IDF combat units.

Meanwhile, far-right Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich asserted Saturday that Israel “will control Gaza after the war.”

“I will not invest a shekel in shielding the Gaza border area,” said Smotrich, implying that it will not be necessary after the conclusion of the war.

“The most important thing is that there will be no more Hamas, that the Strip will be under the operational control of the IDF for years, and that we will not return to the same misconceptions,” he told Channel 12. “We will be there, we will rule there and we will maintain security.”