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Potato Salad posted:The Xeon 2400 line has some pathetic pcie lane counts - 16 5.0 and 4 4.0 lanes. Excuse me but what the hell am I supposed to do with that? Are you talking about Xeon W-24xx? Because according to ark.intel.com, those all have a lot more PCIe lanes than that. 16+4 is the IO spec for their client desktop CPUs (the four lane link being the DMI connection to the southbridge). I'm not seeing any obvious rebadged client CPUs on ark in this generation of Xeons though.
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Oct 29, 2023 12:35
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Twerk from Home posted:Am I crazy or did the -K parts previously have a higher price premium? The answer to extreme power usage in the default configuration of any -K part is to save a few bucks and get a non-K part, but those seem pretty dang expensive now compared to what I think I remember it used to be. You are not crazy, Ks used to be about +$25-40. I don't know whether to credit competition with AMD, or the fact that as shown by that chart a K would be an obviously lousy value if it still had any price premium.
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Oct 29, 2023 13:37
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BobHoward posted:Are you talking about Xeon W-24xx? Because according to ark.intel.com, those all have a lot more PCIe lanes than that. They're talking about the Xeon E-2400, which haven't been announced yet. I was asking what's next in the space because looking at server vendors lineups, the newest thing that Intel sells is the 14nm Rocket Lake chips. If you buy a small cheap edge server with the newer available parts right now, you're getting a rebranded Core i7-11700, three generations behind desktop stuff. A sketchy rumor site says that we are getting E-2400s soon: https://wccftech.com/intel-xeon-e-2400-raptor-lake-entry-level-workstation-cpu-specs-p-core-only-flavors/ , but it's looking like they are really uncompetitive compared to the desktop chips. In previous generations they were basically Core chips with ECC support, but this time they're Core chips without E cores, and also the i5/i7/i9 support ECC. Edit: mystery loving solved: it's AVX-512 support. Do you know what the Core i7-11700K has that the 12900, 13900, and 14900 don't? Intel is committed to not going backwards on instruction set support on anything they brand as a server platform. I'd bet that the Xeon E-2400s all have AVX-512 support, just like you could unlock on early Alder Lake chips with certain motherboard/ BIOS combos until Intel forbade their partners from doing that. I wish that they would have left it enabled on the Core i3s at least. Twerk from Home fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 14:32
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So the "Xeon E-2400" is just straight-up a rebadged i7 11700? Lmao. That's one way to provide "economy" workstations, I suppose. Did they ever justify why AVX-512 was dropped starting with Golden Cove/Alder Lake? Is it just the idea that consumer-level apps simply aren't going to be using 512-bit registers for anything for the next, like, quarter century or whatever? It is really weird to see them walk back a thing after introducing it; even loving Raptor Lake CPUs still technically support MMX instructions like 30 years after they were introduced and 25 after they were basically obsolent.
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Oct 29, 2023 15:13
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SpaceDrake posted:So the "Xeon E-2400" is just straight-up a rebadged i7 11700? Lmao. That's one way to provide "economy" workstations, I suppose. Naw, Xeon E-2300 are rebadged 11xxx series: https://www.servethehome.com/intel-xeon-e-2300-series-launched-rocket-lake-e-for-entry-servers/. Available for more than 2 years now, but getting really long in the tooth. E-2400 look like they're going to be Alder Lake with the E-cores disabled. They removed AVX-512 because the E-cores don't support it at all and Intel wasn't brave enough to have two different architectures that support different instruction sets in the same chip. When Alder Lake was launching, Intel told everyone that AVX-512 was fused off and physically disabled, but that was a lie: https://www.anandtech.com/show/17047/the-intel-12th-gen-core-i912900k-review-hybrid-performance-brings-hybrid-complexity/2. A bunch of early Alder Lake motherboards and CPUs let you use AVX-512, although BIOS updates removed the option to do it. It made for a bunch of weird situations like Core i3s outperforming Core i5s at PS3 emulation by about 10-15%: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54I-TNN8Dz4
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Oct 29, 2023 15:21
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SpaceDrake posted:So the "Xeon E-2400" is just straight-up a rebadged i7 11700? Lmao. That's one way to provide "economy" workstations, I suppose. No, the E-2400s are replacing the ‘server’ 11700 product. Why did they walk it back? Executive/marketing interference, mostly; it was a clear indicator E cores were less capable than P cores. The E core / P core thread migration issue was addressable.
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Oct 29, 2023 15:22
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BobHoward posted:Are you talking about Xeon W-24xx? Because according to ark.intel.com, those all have a lot more PCIe lanes than that. The +4 is separate to the DMI, it's just four 4.0 lanes that are intended for a dedicated CPU M.2 slot. The DMI link is x8 now, but is never officially included in the PCIe lane count. Alder/Raptor lake have the same 28 total PCIe lanes that Ryzen 7000 does, it's just broken down differently and Ryzen 7000 has more PCIe 5.0. E: there is a decent chance that they have gone E-Core only for E-2400 so that they can enable AVX-512 and maintain that all Xeon CPUs support AVX-512. We know from the early Alder Lake chips that consumer golden cove is great at AVX-512. BurritoJustice fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Oct 29, 2023 |
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Oct 29, 2023 15:31
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Alright, now I'm hearing that Intel is winding down its pluggable optical module business? Wasn't this actually a profitable business for them? Is whatshisface really that determined to cut Intel back to processor silicon and processor silicon only?
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Oct 30, 2023 08:35
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Are they winding it down, or selling it off as a immediate money infusion to satisfy shareholders?
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Oct 30, 2023 08:40
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Why produce your own SFP+ modules to sell for $200 a pop when you can buy ten thousand from FS.com for $10 each, reflash your own vendor ID on them, and pocket the extra 95%?
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Oct 30, 2023 09:29
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Klyith posted:You are not crazy, Ks used to be about +$25-40. Yeah, and originally it was worth as you could easily get more than that out of of the K with overclocking. Then a few generations back when they OC everything by default, it meant you got a decent discount in return for losing 2-3% of the performance. Now it seems like it doesn't even matter. As for the power consumption, my PC doesn't run at 100% load nearly enough for it to matter really, low idle power is more important really. The issue I ran into last time I looked into is is that it forces your build in other areas to deal with that power. My current machine live in an Optiplex case with a stock cooler and one exhaust fan. With a 300W CPU, that's not gonna work - you need a giant twin-tower cooler, for which you need a giant case so that it fits, and lots of fans and "good airflow". You also need a higher wattage, higher efficiency PSU. It made the whole planning process pretty annoying because instead of just picking a reasonably priced case, I had to cross-reference what's locally available vs reviews by GN to make sure it wouldn't cook my CPU. Not to mention that all of this poo poo costs more money too.
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Oct 30, 2023 09:49
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Desktop Alder and Raptor Lake continues to be a very special boy.
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Nov 6, 2023 16:21
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Does the PSU just start spitting flames out the back of the tower once you hit the "encode" button what the gently caress, intel
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Nov 6, 2023 17:54
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SpaceDrake posted:Does the PSU just start spitting flames out the back of the tower once you hit the "encode" button Gotta run it off your 240V dryer connection.
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Nov 6, 2023 17:59
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Twerk from Home posted:Desktop Alder and Raptor Lake continues to be a very special boy. Isn't that 13950HX the laptop part? 
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Nov 6, 2023 17:59
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I gotta transcode a lot of video, time to complete is not important. I knew my m1 laptop would use the least power but lol.
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Nov 6, 2023 18:10
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Thats with the hardware encoders explicitly disabled (so no QuickSync for Intel), so its basically putting all of the CPUs to their power limit for the length of the encode. The 14900K has its comical 250W power limit, so yeah... its gonna look extremely bad. Comically, i bet you could limit it 95W and not have a huge change in the length of the encode. Probably would land around the M3 Max. 
Cygni fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Nov 6, 2023 |
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Nov 6, 2023 18:27
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Canned Sunshine posted:Isn't that 13950HX the laptop part? Yes and it has a max turbo power of 157W
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Nov 6, 2023 18:38
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FuturePastNow posted:Yes and it has a max turbo power of 157W How big are laptop power supplies now!? The laptop 4080 is 150W, there's a screen and other components too, do we have 400W laptop chargers?
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Nov 6, 2023 18:41
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Canned Sunshine posted:Isn't that 13950HX the laptop part? It in fact is. I would recommend not keeping your laptop on your lap when the processor is running like that (edit: as FPN notes, 157W max power draw) because I have to imagine there's a risk of burning yourself. Or setting your desk on fire. I mean, with the 14900, I guess it makes "sense"; this is what happens when you have more E-cores than P-cores (twice as many, on the 14900), and Thermal Velocity Boost™©® allows you to clock your E-cores higher, and proportionally much harder, than the P-cores (on paper, at maximum Turbo Boost™, a 14900's P-cores will be clocked up to ~181% of their base rate, while TVB takes the E-cores to exactly 250% of their original clock speeds). So at that point, you've essentially shoved 16 Pentium 4s into the case alongside your actual 8-core multithreaded processor. This at least isn't as much of a problem with Alder Lake (which doesn't use TVB, and the E-core situation is a bit more under control even on the very high end) but high end Raptor Lake, especially the 14xxx refresh series, does kind of feel like Threadripping As Designed By Idiots. We spent Actual Decades refining multi-threading, to the point that even entry-level and budget parts are now fully multi-threaded, and now here comes Intel saying gently caress all that, we're going to throw discreet cores at the problem and both God and the end user can sort out the power and thermal concerns. Having been somewhat detached from the CPU rat race for the past half-decade or so, I'm kind of curious how we got here, even as I sit here and gawk at the shrines to thermal waste the Intel Corporation has decided to throw into the high end market.
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Nov 6, 2023 18:42
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Twerk from Home posted:How big are laptop power supplies now!? The laptop 4080 is 150W, there's a screen and other components too, do we have 400W laptop chargers? the first laptop i found with that chip has a combined power limit of 250W and comes with a 330W power brick
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Nov 6, 2023 18:44
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SpaceDrake posted:Having been somewhat detached from the CPU rat race for the past half-decade or so, I'm kind of curious how we got here, even as I sit here and gawk at the shrines to thermal waste the Intel Corporation has decided to throw into the high end market. number go up
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Nov 6, 2023 18:46
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SpaceDrake posted:Having been somewhat detached from the CPU rat race for the past half-decade or so, I'm kind of curious how we got here, even as I sit here and gawk at the shrines to thermal waste the Intel Corporation has decided to throw into the high end market. It's basically the story of the tortoise and the hare, except here the hare spent their near-decade lead in the race putting all their profits up their nose and now they're in a shrieking panic trying to get back into first place
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Nov 6, 2023 18:55
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Twerk from Home posted:How big are laptop power supplies now!? The laptop 4080 is 150W, there's a screen and other components too, do we have 400W laptop chargers? Psh, the answer is just to supply two power supplies like the SLI Alienware laptops of yore.
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Nov 6, 2023 18:57
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SpaceDrake posted:Having been somewhat detached from the CPU rat race for the past half-decade or so, I'm kind of curious how we got here, even as I sit here and gawk at the shrines to thermal waste the Intel Corporation has decided to throw into the high end market. "If your tech can't compete, shove more power into that bitch!" is a strategy with a loooong history: James Mickens posted:John began to attend The Church of the Impending Power DoombatINC posted:It's basically the story of the tortoise and the hare, except here the hare spent their near-decade lead in the race putting all their profits up their nose and now they're in a shrieking panic trying to get back into first place When ryzen first came out I posted something like "it's great that AMD is competitive again, but I'm sure Intel hasn't spent the last 10 years just sitting on its rear end doing zero R&D so this may be a pretty short revival." Lmao. The fact that I now worry about the market becoming uncompetitive in the other direction is just
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Nov 6, 2023 19:17
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I mean, Intel does seem to actually be getting its poo poo together at least on the fab side? So that would hopefully speak well to future CPU generations, but still, when it currently comes to how they're approaching this, lol. lmao. I don't think AMD has the resources or size to actually replace Intel in terms of market dominance, but I think there's probably still some runway for them to grab.
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Nov 6, 2023 19:48
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Canned Sunshine posted:I mean, Intel does seem to actually be getting its poo poo together at least on the fab side? So that would hopefully speak well to future CPU generations, but still, when it currently comes to how they're approaching this, lol. lmao. I am really skeptical of where Intel is going with Sapphire Rapids and whatever's next in the pipe because they're focusing super-hard on accelerators rather than plain old x86 performance and power efficiency. I'm really biased here because of where and how I've worked, but these accelerators will only help if software is adapted to target it, and a lot of software doesn't go through explicit optimization steps and will benefit from what AMD is doing (more, faster, more efficient cores) but won't get jack poo poo out of all of Intel's accelerators. Which of the accelerators are likely to be most widely used? Are y'all using hardware accelerated gzip via QAT, which has existed for almost a decade now? We use the Intel ISA-L in software mode, so I guess once we have hardware with QAT we'll start using it, but I would much rather just have more cores.
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Nov 6, 2023 19:55
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I'll say this much: the E-core threadripping insanity of the past year or so has definitely made this November/December an Interesting Time to put together a new computer and settle on a CPU, lol. (And I still say someone over there has made a very good call in knocking the 12600KF, specifically, to under US$200; that ends up being a shitload of processor for the money that doesn't completely explode its own thermal budget, and I keep drifting back to it in builds because significantly outperforming it requires throwing down an additional $100-200 that could go to other nifty things. (It's also now cheaper than the 12600K and 12600 non-K, lmfao.) (Shock fake edit: as I go to double-check that, it looks like the 12600KF just went back up to ~$216 on Amazon; hopefully that sub-200 deal returns. Still cheaper than the other two, though, laffo.)) SpaceDrake fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Nov 6, 2023 |
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Nov 6, 2023 20:02
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Twerk from Home posted:How big are laptop power supplies now!? The laptop 4080 is 150W, there's a screen and other components too, do we have 400W laptop chargers? Clevo laughs at a mere 400W Behold, the 780W AC adapter: https://eurocom.com/ec/configure(2,404,0)780WACDCAdapter  It’s for “laptops”like this which otherwise come with 2x 330W adapters. I9-13900HX and RTX4090 16GB https://www.sagernotebook.com/Notebook-NP9371W.html hobbesmaster fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Nov 6, 2023 |
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Nov 6, 2023 21:15
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I bought a 3rd party charger for my 4090 laptop - about the size of a couple phones stacked together with a 240W rating. The neat thing is recent gaming laptops support 100W USB charging so you can carry a smaller adapter for non gaming outings
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Nov 6, 2023 23:44
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Canned Sunshine posted:Isn't that 13950HX the laptop part? The 13950HX is a laptop SKU but it's the desktop die. The 13900HX and 14900K are actually the same die, so the difference in that test is mostly just stock power limit (and some binning).
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Nov 7, 2023 02:16
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It's the same thing Intel has done since 12th gen by letting it run with unlimited power which is obviously extremely inefficient. It's more reasonable, if still not great, at lower power levels.
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Nov 7, 2023 11:36
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Cygni posted:Thats with the hardware encoders explicitly disabled (so no QuickSync for Intel), so its basically putting all of the CPUs to their power limit for the length of the encode. The 14900K has its comical 250W power limit, so yeah... its gonna look extremely bad. Comically, i bet you could limit it 95W and not have a huge change in the length of the encode. Probably would land around the M3 Max. Oh, hmmm, something I just noticed there: 1080p encoding does not use a ton of threads with x264. (Which is what I presume they're doing, though they just say 'MP4'. But pretty all modern encoders have resolution-dependent limits on how many threads they can effectively use.) So in that test the M3 Max is saturated and the 14900K has idle cores, which means the M3 is operating at best efficiency and the 14900K has extra headroom to shove watts at. If instead they tested a 4k encode, I believe the results would look somewhat different: the high-core-count CPUs (including the M2 Ultra) would pull much further ahead of the M3 in encode time. The 14900K would still use 250W, but the E cores would get more use and it would be a bit more efficient. And instead of the results being "you spent 4 times the power to go 10% faster" it might be "you spent 3x the power to go 25% faster". The 14900k still looks insane in power budget, but it stops looking quite so much like you get nothing from it.
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Nov 7, 2023 15:37
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Klyith posted:Oh, hmmm, something I just noticed there: 1080p encoding does not use a ton of threads with x264. (Which is what I presume they're doing, though they just say 'MP4'. But pretty all modern encoders have resolution-dependent limits on how many threads they can effectively use.)
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Nov 7, 2023 15:54
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X264 should even be advantaged towards Intel, because it heavily uses AVX2 instructions with 256-bit wide execution and has been more heavily optimized for x86 than ARM. Done right, AVX should make it both faster and more power efficient than not using AVX. The Apple processors don't have any 256-bit vector processing.
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Nov 7, 2023 16:01
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:For x264, that depends entirely on the preset used; with slow or slower, the implementation can do multithreaded encoding of h264. Pretty sure this is outdated info, x264 changed their threading model and all presets use threading now (and can employ more threads than the old model). x264 --fullhelp posted:- fast: So none of the presets touch the --threads parameter, which by default these days is multi-threaded and chooses the number of threads based on resolution + number of threads supported by the CPU.
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Nov 7, 2023 16:32
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Intel is back on their poo poo: https://twitter.com/ghost_motley/status/1721646985688601023?s=20 quote:It seems the Intel BE200 Wi-Fi 7 card, despite being a regular PCIe/USB M.2 Wi-Fi card, may be locked via Firmware to only work with the Z790 chipset and Intel 14th Gen CPUs. Want wifi 7? Better upgrade to the 14th gen CPUs that are the lamest "generation" upgrade in more than a decade.
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Nov 7, 2023 20:01
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That wifi chipset is used in AMD laptops already, so i dunno if i would jump to conspiracy right away tbh. Not that I would put it past Intel to do something like that, of course. e: i might be wrong!!! the laptop i thought had it is actually using the Qualcomm part. Resume conspiracy thoughts. Cygni fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Nov 7, 2023 |
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Nov 7, 2023 20:13
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Is it one of those things like the AX200/201 where it was PCIe vs. CNVi or something?
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Nov 8, 2023 02:20
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I'm looking at a laptop with a 13700HX so hopefully its shared pedigree with the 14th gen might make the laptop WiFi 7-capable. That said, every WiFi 7 router seems to be eye-wateringly expensive at the moment and if I recall the first consumer products hitting the channel/shelves aren't fully-certified, either.
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