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Chillmatic posted:Ok. Alright, I'm not going to derail the fiction writing thread into, "Healthcare in the United States." I believe I must have misrepresented my intent, and apologize if so. I'll say the following, then leave it be. I've posted a decent amount in the self-publishing thread, and came over here after receiving their invaluable advice over the years. I made a throwaway comment in my introduction here about the fact that I'm delaying a decision over the pursuit of self-publishing vs. trad-publishing until I have some concrete answers regarding my personal situation. I have to report any earnings over $50 in a month to the government, so even earning a minuscule amount is factored into my personal calculus. When it is a matter of continuing to receive monthly infusions which keep me out of a walker, it's hard not to take it seriously. I shouldn't have brought it up, and apologize to the thread collectively bringing up personal circumstances that are not yet relevant to the conversation.
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Nov 7, 2023 15:54
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Captain Log posted:I shouldn't have brought it up, and apologize to the thread collectively bringing up personal circumstances that are not yet relevant to the conversation. I thought sharing it was fine. I just took it as an (unfortunately) interesting detail with the hobby we all share. It got muddled when people tried giving you solutions that you didn't ask for.
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Nov 7, 2023 15:58
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Queen Victorian posted:Re: never giving the character's name: I think it would work just fine if the main character is the only presence or at least the most prominent/central. And there's lots you could play around with in regards to the narrative perspective to express the descent into oblivion, like start deep-limited and drift towards detached-omniscient as the character becomes more distant/oblivious and divorced from the narration itself. Me as well. I think I’ve mentioned before how I play with pov and tense to give different senses of state of mind, like using present tense for PTSD flashbacks. A while back I wrote two versions of a scene where my character had dissociated, and the 1st person version just didn’t feel right compared to limited 3rd. In that whole passage the character never referred to themself by name, choosing to describe themself in monstrous epithets instead. The whole series involves shifting identity so I play with pov a lot. Also in Milkman, which I posted an excerpt of earlier, the pov character never says her name either. When other characters address her directly, she uses the same system she describes other people with, so people call her, “dear sister” or “sister-in-law” and so on to purposely maintain anonymity. Chillmatic posted:Ok. Dude, he means ALS, don’t be rude about that, yikes
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Nov 7, 2023 16:32
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Captain Log posted:
drat Captain, sorry to hear you are going to have to stop your writing plans and the reason why. Where I live, you typically don't have to announce income unless its over a specific amount, dunno if its the same for US. Edit: I do think you should keep writing. If you do get trad-published, you will have more than ample enough time to worry about your health care. Hell, that is something that your prospective agent might even worry about. Reading your comments, I could see how some may think you are counting your chickens before they hatch. DropTheAnvil fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Nov 7, 2023 |
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Nov 7, 2023 17:13
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Stuporstar posted:Me as well. I think I’ve mentioned before how I play with pov and tense to give different senses of state of mind, like using present tense for PTSD flashbacks. A while back I wrote two versions of a scene where my character had dissociated, and the 1st person version just didn’t feel right compared to limited 3rd. In that whole passage the character never referred to themself by name, choosing to describe themself in monstrous epithets instead. The whole series involves shifting identity so I play with pov a lot. I've written a draft of a scene where my heroine is reacting to a shock. The adrenaline has worn off, and all she wants to do is let out her fear and anguish and relief and guilt in private, but first she has to pass through a room full of partygoers, and being a royal means always needing to appear calm and in command of oneself. All of her effort is focused on holding herself together as she lets her body move through the room acknowledging the sympathetic well-wishers and letting the hammered-in protocol speak. She's focusing so hard on retaining control that she can't even hear what other people or even herself are saying. So my idea was to gradually strip away the subject ("I," "me," "my") which acts as a little barrier between the character and the reader and essentially write in stream of consciousness, until it becomes sentence fragments, getting down to single words. I don't know if it'll stay like that after some more passes, or if it would survive test readers. It could come across as too melodramatic. But my hope is that it's a way to really get inside the character's head in a very intense way.
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Nov 7, 2023 17:31
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Captain Log posted:
Reality checks are fine, but IMO the only person you should be writing for is you. maybe someone close to you. Anything else will end up sounding disingenuous. Someone will ALWAYS hate your writing. Nothing is universal. gently caress em. If you are writing to your best self, people will also like your writing. You could gently caress em too, I guess.
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Nov 7, 2023 17:49
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Captain Log posted:I don't give a poo poo about fame. But I do give a poo poo about readership, and also understand that creative types can often get pretty high on their own supply. Having a goon reality check has been an important part of my process through the last few decades. Doctor Zero posted:Reality checks are fine, but IMO the only person you should be writing for is you. maybe someone close to you. Anything else will end up sounding disingenuous. Wanna add to this—publishing for free is always an option if all you want is a readership and making money is no go. I’m on disability benefits myself, so my plan is to start publishing my series for free as a web serial (also because I fully intend to write self-indulgently—gently caress catering to standard ideas about being “publishable” I’m fine with my weirdoshit having a tiny readership). I’m not ready to publish anything yet, but I’m far enough along that thinking about how I’m going to publish it is going to inform the structure my later drafts take.
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Nov 7, 2023 18:15
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Stuporstar posted:Dude, he means ALS, don’t be rude about that, yikes Just to be clear, it's technically, "Unspecified Motor Neuron Disease." It's diagnostically identical to ALS, and was initial diagnosed as ALS with a second opinion agreeing. But I responded to IVIg infusion therapy, which returned some function to my legs and lets me walk with leg braces. It's still technically terminal and care is technically palliative, but my outlook isn't as grim as outright ALS. Sadly, ALS never responds to anything. It's just a downward slope into...well, ya know. DropTheAnvil posted:drat Captain, sorry to hear you are going to have to stop your writing plans and the reason why. Where I live, you typically don't have to announce income unless its over a specific amount, dunno if its the same for US. Yeah, America is a Very Special place. Oregon saved my life, but the country on the whole wants disabled people to quietly die. I do apologize if I sounded like I was counting chickens. I've not really interacted with this thread too much, as I don't know how much cross over there is with the self-publishing thread. A little background - I've written every single day for about three and a half years. I've got three finished novels in rough draft form, and finished double-novel which has been read by someone and turned into a second draft. Also a decent amount of short stories and other bullshit. My main stumbling block is trying to suss out which type of publication I want to pursue. But as mentioned before, I've got some technical bullshit with my personal situation to hammer out first. I just want to write. I don't want to become my own editor, especially after editing my last novel myself for the second draft. I don't want to become an advertising expert, a cover designer, or other things I'm forgetting. But, I understand how much a person writing niche horror is almost definitely not getting a deal from anyone. Doctor Zero posted:Reality checks are fine, but IMO the only person you should be writing for is you. maybe someone close to you. Anything else will end up sounding disingenuous. I absolutely agree, when it comes to the story I'm telling. But I just know I have some bad habits and blind spots, which is where I'd want someone not terribly sympathetic to edit. I'm in my own little writer's bubble, whereas earlier in life my other creative pursuits were surrounded by other people. I'm too aware of how off-course some creatives can get without criticism, including myself. Stuporstar posted:Wanna add to this—publishing for free is always an option if all you want is a readership and making money is no go. I’m on disability benefits myself, so my plan is to start publishing my series for free as a web serial (also because I fully intend to write self-indulgently—gently caress catering to standard ideas about being “publishable” I’m fine with my weirdoshit having a tiny readership). I’m not ready to publish anything yet, but I’m far enough along that thinking about how I’m going to publish it is going to inform the structure my later drafts take. Keep us informed! I'd be more than happy to buy something if you go that route. 
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Nov 7, 2023 21:43
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My workplace had some hodgepodge of trainings by random workers on random topics today (unrelated to what we actually do as a company). I went to one about creative writing and it was hosted by a fanfic writer who adamantly would not describe anything further than that but really likes "self-insertion." I mean I didn't expect much but, whoa. I don't care about what other people write but I can only imagine what her stuff is.
The Sean fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Nov 7, 2023 |
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Nov 7, 2023 22:32
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Chillmatic posted:Ok. I don't mind if people are a little assholeish in this thread, but in the future please do not be *this* much of an rear end in a top hat. Thanks!
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Nov 7, 2023 23:29
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The Sean posted:My workplace had some hodgepodge of trainings by random workers on random topics today (unrelated to what we actually do as a company). I went to one about creative writing and it was hosted by a fanfic writer who adamantly would not describe anything further than that but really likes "self-insertion." I mean I didn't expect much but, whoa. I don't care about what other people write but I can only imagine what her stuff is.  Those sure are some words.
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Nov 8, 2023 02:14
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Quick Question - Google cannot come to a conclusion on this one, so I'll trust y'all. When writing fiction, what is correct? "She dialed 911." of "She dialed nine-one-one." I sure as hell feel like the first option looks right. But hoo boy, some people seem to think you do not use numerals in fiction unless referring to an address.
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Nov 9, 2023 14:18
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Captain Log posted:Quick Question - It’s definitely the top one
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Nov 9, 2023 14:38
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BigFactory posted:It’s definitely the top one 
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Nov 9, 2023 14:59
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911 9/11 411 404 3.14159 420 Some numbers have become so common as to almost be words themselves. 867-5309
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Nov 11, 2023 05:32
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For the first three chapters of my WiP, an unmissable part of the background is that the protagonist's home country is being invaded. It's clear that not only is the protagonist's country losing, they're badly losing. I give hints that what they're fighting isn't at all ordinary and cannot be stopped by conventional means. But I am specifically avoiding mentioning exactly what the enemy is, even though the characters know. The idea was to save the reveal for a flashback chapter so that the reader and protagonist learn what the enemy is at the same time, even though the story starts after the protagonist has chronologically learned it. I don't think I want to delay that flashback any longer than right after Chapter 3 (right after chapter 4 at the most). By then the reader is likely already starting to get impatient with being kept in the dark. However, my Chapter 3 ending will be an crossbow bolt narrowly missing my protagonist, and the next scene in the present would pick up right at that exact moment. That makes me concerned about whether it's a good idea to insert a fairly long flashback (it could possibly go for two chapters), suspending the "present day" at the moment of the crossbow attack for that long. (In my original draft, the flashback was going to go after the heroine was whisked to safety... and I still COULD do that. However, being whisked to safety doesn't feel like a scene with much meat on it. It doesn't have much conflict, nor does it fit the mold of a reactive scene.)
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Nov 11, 2023 06:32
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Naw that's classic
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Nov 11, 2023 08:53
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:For the first three chapters of my WiP, an unmissable part of the background is that the protagonist's home country is being invaded. It's clear that not only is the protagonist's country losing, they're badly losing. I give hints that what they're fighting isn't at all ordinary and cannot be stopped by conventional means. But I am specifically avoiding mentioning exactly what the enemy is, even though the characters know. The idea was to save the reveal for a flashback chapter so that the reader and protagonist learn what the enemy is at the same time, even though the story starts after the protagonist has chronologically learned it. I don't think I want to delay that flashback any longer than right after Chapter 3 (right after chapter 4 at the most). By then the reader is likely already starting to get impatient with being kept in the dark. I've noticed a weird trend in fiction criticism over the past decade where people get loving pissed about even a brief cliffhanger. I absolutely agree with the above post, I think it's classic. But I'm also nearly forty, so I might not be the person who would know best in terms of a general audience.
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Nov 11, 2023 14:17
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people just make poo poo up to be mad about. as long as it works who gives a poo poo
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Nov 11, 2023 17:43
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Anything you write will be attacked if you do it badly and praised if you do it well. Don't worry about permission, worry about execution.
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Nov 11, 2023 18:43
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Wungus posted:Anything you write will be attacked if you do it badly and praised if you do it well. I'd be leery of putting it like this to an aspiring writer. The reality is if you do it well you just might sell it and get it published; and if the general public becomes aware of your writing, you can definitely expect a certain number of self-appointed Literary Experts who will take time out of their busy schedules to explain to you at great length why your writing is terrible and you are a bad person who should feel bad.
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Nov 11, 2023 18:46
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Eric the Mauve posted:I'd be leery of putting it like this to an aspiring writer. The reality is if you do it well you just might sell it and get it published; and if the general public becomes aware of your writing, you can definitely expect a certain number of self-appointed Literary Experts who will take time out of their busy schedules to explain to you at great length why your writing is terrible and you are a bad person who should feel bad. Yeah but I think if your writing becomes popular enough this will happen regardless of what you actually write. If your book becomes a best-seller it's probably either genre fiction, or it's tackling some hot topic, and either way someone somewhere is guaranteed to get mad.
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Nov 11, 2023 19:17
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Wungus posted:Anything you write will be attacked Fixed your quote  Attack might be too serious. People have opinions, and love to share them. It's just human nature. I think apart from writing and focus, the best skill you can have is learning to take criticism. Weirdest thing I encountered was someone trying to link my story to white supremacy because I used the number eighty eight in it.
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Nov 11, 2023 19:20
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Eric the Mauve posted:I'd be leery of putting it like this to an aspiring writer. The reality is if you do it well you just might sell it and get it published; and if the general public becomes aware of your writing, you can definitely expect a certain number of self-appointed Literary Experts who will take time out of their busy schedules to explain to you at great length why your writing is terrible and you are a bad person who should feel bad. There's no point in trying to avoid anger with writing. Even aspiring/new/unpracticed writers can pull off really drat cool ways of doing poo poo that critical assholes declare is Always Bad.
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Nov 11, 2023 21:23
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DropTheAnvil posted:Weirdest thing I encountered was someone trying to link my story to white supremacy because I used the number eighty eight in it. Wait until you hear about being born in 1988
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Nov 11, 2023 21:40
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Wungus posted:Nah. Doing it well doesn't mean poo poo towards selling it and getting it published, but trying to do it well (and knowing that doing anything well is going to be accepted) is how you work out how to actually do it well. Censoring/tailoring your ideas because of an imagined Outcry Of Anger is how you make sure you never explore really cool ways of storytelling and find your voice. Instead I like to imagine who’ll get angry at my writing, and if it’s grammar nazis and/or chuds or other shitheads, set out to make them as angry as possible by going hard at the elements they hate Like making it gayer. It can always be gayer E. Also one thing that drives me to write like a maniac is knowing I’m doing something “bad” according to all the writing advice I’ve ever heard and perversely doing it anyway. Does it always lead to good writing? Hell no! Especially not when my bad idea is “what if I start the book with my protagonist giving a blowjob lol” But it is sure as hell fun, and after that writing high I usually find it easier to buckle down and write for real Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Nov 11, 2023 |
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Nov 11, 2023 21:45
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I took a workshop with romance author Alyssa Cole and she said that you ought to be sensitive and do your research when it comes to representing groups and experiences that are not yours -- not because you are worried about getting cancelled, but because you want to get them right. Which makes sense: if you love these things so much that you want to write about them, wouldn't you want to represent them fairly and accurately? It's also worth it to consider who your core audience is and what would actually impress them. If you try to please everyone you end up pleasing no one, you know?
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Nov 11, 2023 22:14
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Pththya-lyi posted:I took a workshop with romance author Alyssa Cole and she said that you ought to be sensitive and do your research when it comes to representing groups and experiences that are not yours -- not because you are worried about getting cancelled, but because you want to get them right. Which makes sense: if you love these things so much that you want to write about them, wouldn't you want to represent them fairly and accurately? This is true but with a caveat. You can’t win with terminally online tumblr kids. Even if you ARE LGBTQ+ or BPOC or disabled, you will piss off people who have the same disability, sexual orientation, gender expression, same culture, etc. if they’re the type who love to spew vehement takedowns on social media, because naturally your personal experience (or research) will differ from their personal experience, so they’ll insist you’re wrong no matter what. So don’t listen to ANY writing advice or criticism from the kinda shitholes these kinda shitheads hang out in—like goodreads or whatever. Please get advice from stable places full of people who know what the gently caress they’re talking about rather than “some people online”
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Nov 11, 2023 22:29
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Stuporstar posted:Instead I like to imagine who’ll get angry at my writing, and if it’s grammar nazis and/or chuds or other shitheads, set out to make them as angry as possible by going hard at the elements they hate Not gonna lie that's hilarious. How about a gay detective? A dick sucking dick. A real "private dick." A dick amongst dicks. Dick jokes.
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Nov 12, 2023 00:38
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Waffle! posted:Not gonna lie that's hilarious. How about a gay detective? A dick sucking dick. A real "private dick." A dick amongst dicks. newts already beat you to that one: newts posted:Mine is an urban fantasy, but it is also very, very gay (less necromancy, more gay sex). And was actually free on Amazon until today. I do agree with this though: Wungus posted:Nah. Doing it well doesn't mean poo poo towards selling it and getting it published, but trying to do it well (and knowing that doing anything well is going to be accepted) is how you work out how to actually do it well. There is nowhere as much correlation between how good something is and how well something sells as I would like there to be. The recent discussion in the SFF KU thread has been pretty clear on that.
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Nov 12, 2023 01:40
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Stuporstar posted:This is true but with a caveat. You can’t win with terminally online tumblr kids. Even if you ARE LGBTQ+ or BPOC or disabled, you will piss off people who have the same disability, sexual orientation, gender expression, same culture, etc. if they’re the type who love to spew vehement takedowns on social media, because naturally your personal experience (or research) will differ from their personal experience, so they’ll insist you’re wrong no matter what. Oh yeah i do not think it's ever a good idea to try to impress shitheads
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Nov 12, 2023 02:09
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I'm not going to lie, writing experiences outside of my own cis-white male scope terrify me. My "Double Novel" which might be a triple novel is about two white Union veterans of the American Civil War. While they are not, one of the main conflicts to get the story rolling is the klan spreading rumors around the southern town of their being gay. Also, one of the main characters is an old freedman who lives on the property adjacent to theirs. Personally, nothing about the story strikes me as pushing any envelopes whatsoever on the subjects. But Christ, I'm just not "online" enough to know everything. This doesn't even cover the fact that I loving know there are going to be ways I genuinely mess up.
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Nov 12, 2023 14:28
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Captain Log posted:I'm not going to lie, writing experiences outside of my own cis-white male scope terrify me. At one point, I had sketched out an idea for a sci-fi novel with a protagonist from Mozambique, realized I obviously knew next to nothing about that culture, considered making him either from or educated in London, and realized that didn't help at all. I put the idea on the shelf, to not be even considered until at least a decent amount of research can be done. I also briefly flirted with the idea of making the culture of my current WIP more Middle-Eastern flavored, before abandoning that notion for the same reasons. Better to learn how to crawl before you try to walk and learn how to walk before you try to run. Writing is hard enough without increasing the difficulty. Even what I'm doing now, writing in first-person as a woman (without being one) could be considered reaching too far. But I'm going to attempt it anyway, because that's what the story needs. The story would not be the same story with the same feel if the protagonist was a man; a male protagonist would have very different problems. (Similarly, I prefer to write fantasy or sci-fi, because people won't be able to complain as much that I got my historical facts and cultures wrong.)
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Nov 12, 2023 17:26
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I made my bi-racial protagonist raised as Egyptian because I needed that extra level of difficulty to stay engaged lol. It gave me more of an excuse to learn Egyptian Arabic on top of Ancient Egyptian for my series I have little fear of this because I’m going whole hog on the research. But when it comes to a minority character culturally similar to yourself, or from a made up culture in sff, it’s a lot easier to just flesh them out with consideration and find someone to beta read (or pay a sensitivity reader) who is that minority to make sure you didn’t make a massive blunder. Stop limiting yourself out of fear. Just do what you want and prepare to take criticism and fix poo poo if you do gently caress up. Remember that everyone fucks up and there’s no shame in that so long as you’re willing to admit it and do better. As writers this is a necessary skill anyway E. I do understand not feeling ready to tackle the next level challenge before taking the one you do feel ready for tho Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Nov 12, 2023 |
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Nov 12, 2023 20:05
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General Battuta posted:Wait until you hear about being born in 1988 sounds like a skill issue
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Nov 12, 2023 20:24
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Stuporstar posted:This is true but with a caveat. You can’t win with terminally online tumblr kids. Even if you ARE LGBTQ+ or BPOC or disabled, you will piss off people who have the same disability, sexual orientation, gender expression, same culture, etc. if they’re the type who love to spew vehement takedowns on social media, because naturally your personal experience (or research) will differ from their personal experience, so they’ll insist you’re wrong no matter what. Captain Log posted:I'm not going to lie, writing experiences outside of my own cis-white male scope terrify me. From a rational standpoint, I know very well to give no fucks about the terminally outraged opinions of the terminally online, but I still find myself worrying about it sometimes. Because like, as a straight cis-female WASP, wtf do I know about anything? I dunno, fantasy in particular feels like it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of situation these days - everyone's clamoring for diverse representation and non-Euro-centric settings but then these online types get all mad if you try to do that while not being of the people/group/place of origin that you're basing your stuff on, and sometimes even if you are. Only thing to do is write what you want to write and not worry about it. Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Even what I'm doing now, writing in first-person as a woman (without being one) could be considered reaching too far. But I'm going to attempt it anyway, because that's what the story needs. The story would not be the same story with the same feel if the protagonist was a man; a male protagonist would have very different problems.  except the inverse. My protagonist is male (I'm not writing in first person, but I have no qualms about doing so if the story had called for it) because I just like writing male protagonists and also the story just doesn't work with a female protagonist, given the setting, which I want to be deeply, authentically medieval (like, based on actual medieval history and not other pseudo-medieval fantasies), complete with a pervasive patriarchy and a pre-Enlightenment, pre-feminism mindset. I've always had a thing for writing male protags besides, even back in grade school, probably because I was a tomboy with undiagnosed ADHD, which meant I didn't have the patience for or interest in trying to understand other girls and the complexities of girl socialization. So I didn't want to write about girls or being a girl, and I also wanted to get out of my own head, and writing male characters was an easy way to do that. And even now, my cast skews heavily male, and if I ever finish/publish this thing, some tumblrina will definitely give me poo poo for my gender handling/representation but gently caress 'em.Also, that genderfluid character I mentioned earlier was originally a girl who masqueraded as a boy (I think more for safety/anonymity than being truly genderfluid), but it just didn't work for a multitude of reasons, so I switched him to being male and genderfluid and it, like, solved all my problems and then some. Sometimes a character's gender matters in a fundamental way and you just gotta roll with it.
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Nov 13, 2023 00:39
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 Don't be afraid to make your characters weird and surreal, or make the setting weird and inscrutable in terms of time period, have fun with it!
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Nov 13, 2023 06:03
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okay
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Nov 13, 2023 06:28
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Junpei posted:Don't be afraid to make your characters weird and surreal, or make the setting weird and inscrutable in terms of time period, have fun with it! Wow, what fantastic advice which is absolutely universally appropriate no matter what genre you're writing in, what audience you're writing the book for, or the tone you are shooting for.
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Nov 13, 2023 06:39
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For me, the question of representing diverse viewpoints comes down to work. Yes, you can hypothetically write about any character in any situation, as long as you put in the work to do the research. But the further from your own perspective you go, the more effort you have to put in to do it justice, and at some point you have to pick your battles. Several years ago I set out to write a pirate-themed fantasy novel. Because who doesn't love pirates? But that led me to creating a setting based on the Caribbean, a place I've never been within 500 miles of. This meant I wanted to sensitively depict colonialism, slavery, Indigenous cultures, not to mention all the local flora and fauna I had no knowledge of. It was a huge amount of work, and eventually it got to the point where I felt I was expending a massive effort to create something that would end up, like, 70% as believable as the average book by someone who actually comes from that part of the world, or has Indigenous heritage, etc. I eventually gave up on the project (not only for this reason, but that was part of it). Obviously that doesn't mean my next book was exclusively about straight middle class white men. But I became a lot more careful about biting off more than I could chew.
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Nov 13, 2023 06:40
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