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SteveSteveSteve posted:Bisby, the Unit Spotlight: Medivac link isn't showing in the OP. Thanks, fixed.
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Nov 7, 2023 18:59
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Can you do an entirely air-based army in SC2? I know it won't be efficient, but I love the idea of a force of Valkyries and Wraiths and Banshees, and maybe a couple of Battlecruisers making their way across the battlefield... And then a certain Wagner track starts playing...
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Nov 7, 2023 19:31
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painedforever posted:Can you do an entirely air-based army in SC2? I know it won't be efficient, but I love the idea of a force of Valkyries and Wraiths and Banshees, and maybe a couple of Battlecruisers making their way across the battlefield... You can, at least in normal campaign, but it's only even kind of viable on a couple of missions. Supernova is the obvious one, since viking / banshee there is actually pretty good at clearing out everything between you and the objective. Maw of the Void is another, but honestly you just mass battlecruisers and don't need anything else except maybe a vessel or two. The big issue is that it's so much more resource intensive to do any of that when compared to the MMM ball. Specialist hit and run units, sir superiority fighters, and a slow but tanky ship requires a lot more micro than f2-a-move does, and the generalist army will usually fare better regardless. The air units are pretty much designed to fit roles that just don't matter in the campaign. And that track is for a unit that's in this game exactly once, and it's not in WoL 
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Nov 7, 2023 19:39
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painedforever posted:Can you do an entirely air-based army in SC2? I know it won't be efficient, but I love the idea of a force of Valkyries and Wraiths and Banshees, and maybe a couple of Battlecruisers making their way across the battlefield... There are several Co-Op Commanders that are extremely good at Air-Only armies.
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Nov 7, 2023 19:53
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MadDogMike posted:And here’s where Blizzard chickened out of a great line; originally Raynor was apparently supposed to comment “What is it with me and women?” after shooting Monster Hanson. Dark or not, failing to make the obvious joke about Jim’s “type” is a terrible missed opportunity. You know, this makes me consider an alternate way to make your choice matter in this case: Hanson and the colonists are infected no matter what you pick, and it turns out that Hanson's vaccine doesn't work to disinfect them... but it does break their connection to Kerrigan leaving them free to join the Raiders, so instead it could give you an Infested Terran Guy unit(instead of the Viking) and Monster Hanson hangs around the medbay all full of clickety clackety alien parts, unsettling everyone who comes in for a checkup, and just add some throwaway line about the Viking being based off of Protoss tech you got from Selendis if you trust her instead.
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Nov 7, 2023 20:12
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Kith posted:There are several Co-Op Commanders that are extremely good at Air-Only armies. I feel I should mention as a follow-up: there's a Co-Op Commander whose Air-Only Army is so powerful it can crash the game.
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Nov 7, 2023 20:41
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Kith posted:I feel I should mention as a follow-up: there's a Co-Op Commander whose Air-Only Army is so powerful it can crash the game. lol
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Nov 7, 2023 20:59
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Kinda hinted at it earlier but in contrast to their lackluster utility in campaign, Vikings are used in pretty much every matchup in competitive multiplayer. TvT: The standard composition here is Marine/Medivac/Siege Tank/Viking. Vikings uncontested would shoot down all the opposing player's Medivacs pretty quickly so this ends up with Vikings acting as area denial and dueling each other for air superiority. They also act as spotters for Siege Tanks, since Tanks can shoot further than they can see, as well as giving high ground vision. TvP: Protoss has a lot of strong air options and Vikings are used against all of them. In addition, as mentioned before Vikings are the usual counter to Colossi. TvZ: Vikings aren't seen quite as much in this matchup. They can be used as area denial against Mutas, but more often you'll see them come out as a tool to fight Brood Lords in late game. You can also use them to harass and snipe Overlords. Tarezax fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Nov 7, 2023 |
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Nov 7, 2023 21:10
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JackSplater posted:You can, at least in normal campaign, but it's only even kind of viable on a couple of missions. Supernova is the obvious one, since viking / banshee there is actually pretty good at clearing out everything between you and the objective. Maw of the Void is another, but honestly you just mass battlecruisers and don't need anything else except maybe a vessel or two. The big issue is that it's so much more resource intensive to do any of that when compared to the MMM ball. Specialist hit and run units, sir superiority fighters, and a slow but tanky ship requires a lot more micro than f2-a-move does, and the generalist army will usually fare better regardless. The air units are pretty much designed to fit roles that just don't matter in the campaign. Expense and the fact that you don't have anything on the ground to anchor ground-only units and prevent them from just running past your airborne deathball. The final orb mission demonstrates this pretty well actually, as you can easily get into a state where you're just a deathfleet of carriers and void rays shooting things while zerglings and ultralisks run around tearing down your buildings if you don't have any ground units/defenses left to tie them up. Back when I'd do BC rushes in WoL for funsies, I'd use marines as a mineral sink precisely because they provided something to tie up ground forces while said rushed battlecruisers flatten everything from the skies. And I disagree with the notion you'll never make vikings in campaign. If you do Haven at a reasonable time, they come in handy on various levels as Soundwave points out, and their transformation isn't terrible if you've got ground forces to add them to. They are strictly better at anti-air than goliaths are and they're more maneuverable than goliaths to strike at air threats coming in from odd angles. Where Goliaths have them beat is as compliment to a ground death ball, where the campaign upgrade that lets goliaths fire at air and ground at the same time gives goliaths an edge. Soundwave called out The Dig, and I'd personally love vikings on that level to deal with the air waves and colossi, independent of whether or not I want to try slapping down the protoss bases.
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Nov 7, 2023 21:17
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Fun fact about Viking mercs: Not only they are better than regular vikings. They are also cheaper 
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Nov 7, 2023 21:47
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Xarn posted:Fun fact about Viking mercs: Eh... 50 less minerals, but 75 more gas. Technically they cost more.
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Nov 7, 2023 22:03
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They're cheaper if you don't factor in the cost of a Starport.
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Nov 8, 2023 00:02
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Speaking of... Can you win missions with mercenaries only?
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Nov 8, 2023 19:26
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painedforever posted:Speaking of...
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Nov 8, 2023 19:30
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A lot of the new challenge achievements for levels are "beat this mission building only scvs and mercenaries". They're generally pretty easy on normal.
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Nov 8, 2023 21:50
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While we're on the topic of challenge runs... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iFxEvnqQGk It's possible to complete the campaign on Brutal without training/hiring any new units at all.
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Nov 8, 2023 22:40
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gohuskies posted:Maybe too early to raise this, but would a "I want to kill Kerrigan" versus "I want to rescue Kerrigan" choice have worked in WoL? Obviously they'd have to be rail-roaded to the same final resolution, but maybe you could have gotten different cutscenes or missions along the way. The more I let this roll around in my head, the more I really, really like this idea. Imagine an alternate Wings of Liberty campaign progression where events largely play out the same, in the same order, but the difference the player's choice makes is why those events are happening. Your choices boil down to "what kind of protagonist is this J. Eugene Raynor guy, anyway?" 1. A bitter, rage-driven man who lost his career, army, family, and cool alien bestie, who now lives only to slake the burning thirst for revenge against the monster who stole his old battlefield buddy's name and face? (End of Brood War raynor) 2. A cynical alcoholic barely keeping it together and unsure what he's even fighting for, who has to pick up the pieces and try to do something right for once? (Original SC2 plot raynor) 3. An optimistic romantic, out to Set Right What Once Went Wrong, rescue the girl, and get his happy ending? (Final product SC2 plot raynor) 4. Kick This Revolution Into Overdrive quippy cinematic trailer action movie raynor here to be a big drat hero, save the day, and sell some Viking happy meal toys? A more controlled campaign progression would have freed up the level designers to make better use of cloaked units, air units, big dangerous units, and so on with the knowledge that the player would have the necessary tools by then to deal with them. Imagine a campaign where you actually had a good reason to want to use that cool Hercules, or the excessively many different variations of 'kills lots of zerglings fast' units, or the highly situational units like reapers and diamondbacks. If the designers know for a fact what the players have it's easier to plan for these. See, this is what I meant about bad things being educational, because you think about how it could have been fixed.
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Nov 9, 2023 05:24
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I had - and have as I've been replaying recently - a lot of fun with the sc2 campaign but I sure wish it had more missions like sc/bw. Give me whole maps to fight!
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Nov 9, 2023 07:55
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Colonist 3.5: Safe Haven Video: Safe Haven  But what if things happened differently? What if we didn't leave Haven to the literal last second?   Selendis is so thrilled.   So yeah, the colony?  Absolutely fine! Not a speck of creep to be found.  Like, the Tosh/Nova split at least tried to add in some ambiguity. Is Tosh on the level, or is he shoving people into the Psi-Indoctrinator behind Jim's back? Is Nova telling the truth, or is she trying to deprive Jim of a powerful ally?  Sure, they never do anything with it after Covert 3, but they at least made an attempt.  There is no such effort for Haven.  Side with Hanson? Everyone is fine and the protoss are going on a paranoid killing spree.  Side with Selendis? Haven's about three seconds from Kerrigan making a personal appearance to start setting up a private spa for her days off.  Haven exists in a quantum superposition of infested and not until you side with someone, to make sure that the player never has to be in the wrong.     This mission makes the gimmick even more obvious. Each Nexus is guarded by a bunch of anti-ground units, and their Photon Cannons are powered by conveniently flying Warp Prisms.    This mission is much easier than Haven's Fall. Honestly, I think it might be one of the earlier missions made during development.  Absolutely zero infestation here, no sir.  A sturdy defense is more important here, just because protoss attack waves are a good bit scarier than a bunch of infested.  Now, to be fair to Selendis, there are some infested here.  It's literally just these five guys. Here's hoping Hanson's cure can fix tumorous growths, claws, and face tentacles.   The Purifier is just a fancy Mothership that ditches the cloak field. Until the Nexii are down, I can't touch it.  It'll just slowly move from base to base, attacking anything that gets too close.  Once it reaches a base, it'll charge up for a minute.  For Reasons, pure Vikings are the name of the game today.  Once the Purifier finishes charging...  It, well, purifies.   When it's done, a giant crater is left behind as it spawns in some reinforcements.  Those units are a Terror Fleet, which will promptly head towards the next base the Purifier is moving towards and kill everyone there.  Instead of trying to catch them before they make it, I start the fight at the base itself for an impossibly stupid reason.  See, each Terror Fleet starts on an attack-move command to the base, and will attack normally if you move to intercept.  But the devs wanted this dramatic shot of the Carriers slowly moving on top of the base before starting to attack, while the Marine guards can do nothing but futilely try to shoot them down.  To do this, the Terror Fleet shifts to a move command at some point, and will not break from it for any reason until it reaches the base.  So they just... move directly into my Vikings and harmlessly get shot down. At best one of them can get two or three hits in before dying.   The colonists left some resources behind after they evacuated. We should pick them up.Each base will leave behind a bunch of caches after being saved from a Terror Fleet.  I start on the first Nexus, which promptly reveals the second reason for why this mission is so easy:  The Nexus is right next to a cliff. After knocking out everything that could give high ground vision, I can land my Vikings and poke it to death from complete safety.   And it dies while I finish up my defenses.  And since Terror Fleets are both limited and on a strict timer, unlike the virophages in Haven's Fall, I can instantly head to the second base without having to stop partway through.  Oh look, another cliff right next to the Nexus.   Meh, they already evacuated.   And since I'm already here, I sit and wait for the next Terror Fleet.   They also do the move command thing.  The final base, surprisingly enough, doesn't have a nearby cliff I can exploit. I have to push in the old-fashioned way.  Except it's still easy, since I have access to 3/3 and Science Vessel support.    And there goes the last Nexus.  And then you have a big epic fight with the Purifier! A big ol' health bar in the middle of your screen! 7000 health!  There's just one tiny problem. The Purifier has 7 range.  Vikings have 9.  It literally can't touch me, and since it's on rails it can't try to chase me down.  One Viking drifted close enough to make it retaliate, but even then it just slaps me with a Vortex.  This also spawns in a bunch of units to help protect it, which could pose a threat to the few Vikings I have left in the open!  Eeeeeeeeexcept Vortex is a continual thing, so I can just... dunk them all in to keep them safe.  And since there was nothing for them to aggro on, most of the enemies turned and started moving towards my base.  Safe Haven is just a bafflingly designed mission. Effortless objectives, enemies that are too stupid to fight back, and a boss that can only hurt you if you gently caress up.   As a nice touch, you do actually see Selendis' Carrier from In Utter Darkness flying away here.  You may have noticed that no one had anything to say about the cure.  It just happened entirely offscreen, I guess.  Rip Them All Down - Kill 50 enemy units with Vikings in the "Safe Haven" mission on Normal difficulty. BisbyWorl fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Feb 6, 2024 |
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Nov 11, 2023 06:04
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I don't think the cure happened offscreen. Hanson is clearly still working on it, given that she's got Infested Colonists on hand.
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Nov 11, 2023 06:20
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See? You guys not only missed out on making a cute human chick happy, but we also missed out on a date fight with a Protoss waifu! This is the worst harem anime playthrough of Starcraft 2 I've ever seen, and no mistake!
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Nov 11, 2023 08:08
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Would you believe me that I never before noticed the infected on this mission?
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Nov 11, 2023 08:22
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Xarn posted:Would you believe me that I never before noticed the infected on this mission? "Wait, there are infected on this mission?" Me, reading the update
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Nov 11, 2023 09:02
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Xarn posted:Would you believe me that I never before noticed the infected on this mission? Yes, because I never noticed them either.
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Nov 11, 2023 09:06
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I think it's telling that everytime this mission turns into a challenge mission by modders, it's always 'Selendis was right, some of the colonists are infested after all' and you're also dealing with infested attacks. And it's still just so easy.
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Nov 11, 2023 09:12
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... Y'know, something I just thought of. Can you kill the Infested Colonists in the fenced off area? Does anyone yell at you if you do?
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Nov 11, 2023 09:16
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Kith posted:... Y'know, something I just thought of.  Alright Selendis, no more infestation here, you can go home now!
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Nov 11, 2023 09:21
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BisbyWorl posted:
I'm honestly surprised they were targetable/killable.
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Nov 11, 2023 10:39
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Edit: Removed due to:SirSamVimes posted:I mean, kinda jumping the gun there when all that is going to be in the next intermission update. DTurtle fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Nov 11, 2023 |
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Nov 11, 2023 12:37
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I mean, kinda jumping the gun there when all that is going to be in the next intermission update.
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Nov 11, 2023 12:40
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the Protoss really do take the destruction of dozens of their capital ships in stride here huh
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Nov 11, 2023 12:55
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HannibalBarca posted:the Protoss really do take the destruction of dozens of their capital ships in stride here huh I know this joke has been made already, but 
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Nov 11, 2023 13:30
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HannibalBarca posted:the Protoss really do take the destruction of dozens of their capital ships in stride here huh
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Nov 11, 2023 13:38
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I actually kinda loving love the implication that every member of the Protoss military, from the high command to the average Zealot, is just so stoked to engage in GLORIOUS COMBAT with a worthy foe that they don't even mind getting blown out of the sky by the dozens, they're just that much more impressed with James Ray-Nor.
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Nov 11, 2023 13:53
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I think this is just a ploy to make another TvP battle happen. It's not a sign of quality writing, but sometimes, the Rule of Cool requires you to write a bit nonsensical plots. If this was the only problem with SC2's story, it wouldn't be a big deal at all. Instead SC2's story is a huge mess.
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Nov 11, 2023 14:31
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BisbyWorl posted:Haven exists in a quantum superpostion of infested and not until you side with someone, to make sure that the player never has to be in the wrong. I'm generally much more forgiving about the writing faults in these games than most here, with the caveat that I never got around to playing HoTS or whatever the third part was titled, but this drove me crazy - instead of making me feel like my choice mattered it made me feel like it didn't matter whatsoever. Also, shamefully, I picked Nova the first time through because I figured she was clearly the choice since there was a whole cancelled game about her that they'd draw plot from!
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Nov 11, 2023 15:28
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There's a certain amount of abstraction to all the death that happens in the battles. Selendis is sending dozens of capital ships to be shredded by Raynor's forces just the same way Raynor sent wave after wave of his own men to get slaughtered by the defences of New Folsom as a distraction for Tosh. If anything this one is more justified - at least we do know the protoss are just Like That.
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Nov 11, 2023 15:30
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It was simply a matter of outsmarting them. You see Protoss have a preset kill limit. Knowing their weakness I sent wave after wave of my own men at them until they reached their limit and shut down. Matt, show them the medal I won.
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Nov 11, 2023 15:53
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Ain't Selendis supposed to be the canon BW executor? Why is she talking like she only heard of Raynor, when they fought side by side?
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Nov 11, 2023 16:01
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Gun Jam posted:Ain't Selendis supposed to be the canon BW executor? Why is she talking like she only heard of Raynor, when they fought side by side? It's never quite confirmed that it was her, though if it was, aside from whatever she was doing before taking up the mantle after the Overmind's death, her and Jim never actually fight side by side. His only appearance in Episode 4 is to show up at the end of the first level to hold off the Zerg while the Protoss refugees escape through the gate.
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Nov 11, 2023 16:13
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