(Thread IKs:
fatherboxx)
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The US managed to run an election in 1864 with half the country a war zone, I don't see why that feat cannot be replicated in 2023.
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Nov 7, 2023 13:36
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Qtotonibudinibudet posted:have they even bothered to conjure up 2024's designated fail opposition yet It seems that the designated lib to pummel is Boris Nadezhdin, a nobody with a long career of warming party seats here and there
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Nov 7, 2023 13:38
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Charlz Guybon posted:The US managed to run an election in 1864 with half the country a war zone, I don't see why that feat cannot be replicated in 2023. It was somewhat harder to interfere with a enemy state several hundred mills behind the frontlines in 1864. And none of the non-seceded states were under occupation - by the time of the polls the USA was seeing progress on all fronts, unlike now.
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Nov 7, 2023 13:47
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Charlz Guybon posted:The US managed to run an election in 1864 with half the country a war zone, I don't see why that feat cannot be replicated in 2023. idk, missiles for one. c'mon now (maybe this joke went over my head)
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Nov 7, 2023 14:02
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socialsecurity posted:Do you seriously believe he wants to make himself president for life? Do you have any evidence or indication that this is likely? I didn’t make any of these claims, please refrain from appealing to the strawman fallacy. I believe the democratic process is sacrosanct and should not be infringed upon. I think it’s concerning when the leader of a democratic country unilaterally decides to forego elections, and I think his western backers should keep a close eye on him. Many are quick to excuse human rights violations and atrocities, justifying them in the name of war. To that, I say: enough! The people of Ukraine yearn for freedom from their oppressors, both foreign and domestic. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 7, 2023 14:28
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The Top G posted:I didn’t make any of these claims, please refrain from appealing to the strawman fallacy. Do you find it concerning when the leader of a democratic country follows the law of the country? Because that seems to be what's happening here.
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Nov 7, 2023 14:38
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Charlz Guybon posted:The US managed to run an election in 1864 with half the country a war zone, I don't see why that feat cannot be replicated in 2023. I'm not sure if this is serious but that election was unprecedented in itself and I suspect the capacity for long-range air strikes was fairly limited in 1864.
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Nov 7, 2023 14:44
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To that, I say: enough!
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Nov 7, 2023 14:45
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The Top G posted:I didn’t make any of these claims, please refrain from appealing to the strawman fallacy. I yearn to be liberated from your posting.
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Nov 7, 2023 14:46
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Dandywalken posted:To that, I say: enough! They had me in the first half, not gonna lie. e: Forsooth!
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Nov 7, 2023 14:49
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Charlz Guybon posted:The US managed to run an election in 1864 with half the country a war zone, I don't see why that feat cannot be replicated in 2023. During that election, was the entire US under martial law and did authorities have the legal power to simply forbid political opponents to campaign?
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Nov 7, 2023 15:07
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The Top G posted:I didn’t make any of these claims, please refrain from appealing to the strawman fallacy. The Top G posted:Hmmm, this doesn’t sound very democratic … I'm sorry, you seem worried he was going to suspend elections indefinitely? What would the purpose of that if not to make himself president for life, if you don't believe that is the goal of those actions what do you think the goal is?
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Nov 7, 2023 15:10
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socialsecurity posted:I'm sorry, you seem worried he was going to suspend elections indefinitely? What would the purpose of that if not to make himself president for life, if you don't believe that is the goal of those actions what do you think the goal is? Hey hey, they're just asking questions (TM) about their sincere concerns about election integrity. For those who would question op's intentions, I say: enough!
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Nov 7, 2023 15:13
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There is certainly a legitimate discussion to be had on whether elections should be suspended. The idealist in me would prefer they go ahead - I think it could be a powerful sign of the strength of Ukraine's emerging democracy during a crisis, and dispel lovely bad faith propaganda about nazism, etc. But they have to balance that against the fact its a awful time to try to hold them. Russia would absolutely meddle in the process to the fullest of its ability, including putting up fake 'nazi' candidates, directly attacking rallies and crowds at polling stations with missles/drones, etc. The risk to people 's lives is extremely real. But if you want to JAQ about Ukraine's inevitable future crimes at least try harder. You're overdoing it and don't come across as remotely sincere.
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Nov 7, 2023 15:30
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A lot of democratic nations don't have elections during war, including my own (Germany), which is why I find this entire discussion ridiculous (Germany's constitutional provisions declare that all election cycles ending during a war end automatically* after parliament officially ends the war, so we don't have to go voting while bombs rain down on our heads.) *of course each possibility (parliament, state parliament, etc.) has their own, different time table for when, after the official end date, the prolonged cycles mercifully end so that new elections can be held.
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Nov 7, 2023 16:09
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Just Another Lurker posted:Any Ukrainian elections during wartime will be a prime target for Russian disinformation and attacks, turning it into a real mess. I really doubt they'd not be a prime target after the invasion ends, one way or another. If the Russians end up retreating in defeat, hitting back with disinformation will be an immediate avenue of revanchism. If Ukraine has to agree to a negotiated peace deal, Russia can use that to get a party in power that'd be much more favourable to them in the future.
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Nov 7, 2023 19:53
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Charlz Guybon posted:The US managed to run an election in 1864 with half the country a war zone, I don't see why that feat cannot be replicated in 2023. There are these things called cruise missiles and drones now.
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Nov 7, 2023 19:59
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spankmeister posted:There are these things called cruise missiles and drones now. Wait, wait, the local town doesn't come out to a hillside for a picnic to watch the battle?
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Nov 7, 2023 21:40
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nimby posted:I really doubt they'd not be a prime target after the invasion ends, one way or another. If the Russians end up retreating in defeat, hitting back with disinformation will be an immediate avenue of revanchism. If Ukraine has to agree to a negotiated peace deal, Russia can use that to get a party in power that'd be much more favourable to them in the future. Truth, but there is no reason to double your trouble mid war, russias gonna russia. 
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Nov 7, 2023 21:58
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nimby posted:I really doubt they'd not be a prime target after the invasion ends, one way or another. If the Russians end up retreating in defeat, hitting back with disinformation will be an immediate avenue of revanchism. If Ukraine has to agree to a negotiated peace deal, Russia can use that to get a party in power that'd be much more favourable to them in the future. That will be the case for elections during the way too, likely, just with the whole extra war thing.
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Nov 7, 2023 22:34
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Plus the whole "it's literally illegal to hold elections in Ukraine during martial law" deal.
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Nov 7, 2023 22:59
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Libluini posted:A lot of democratic nations don't have elections during war, including my own (Germany), which is why I find this entire discussion ridiculous Yeah, it's a very American centered argument. The US is unusual in having an effectively unalterable election cycle.
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Nov 7, 2023 23:07
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Dandywalken posted:To that, I say: enough! new thread title please
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Nov 7, 2023 23:24
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OAquinas posted:Plus the whole "it's literally illegal to hold elections in Ukraine during martial law" deal. A lot of people have said this, but like, couldn't Ukraine just end martial law whenever it wants? I don't see how that's an actual obstacle to them holding elections since it was their decision to implement it in the first place.
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Nov 8, 2023 02:57
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Ponsonby Britt posted:A lot of people have said this, but like, couldn't Ukraine just end martial law whenever it wants? I don't see how that's an actual obstacle to them holding elections since it was their decision to implement it in the first place. Why do you think they declared martial law, and do you think those circumstances and concerns are not longer relevant?
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Nov 8, 2023 03:38
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lol it's like a game of "red light, green light".
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Nov 8, 2023 04:16
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mutata posted:lol it's like a game of "red light, green light".
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Nov 8, 2023 04:22
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Why didn’t Zelenskyy (thanks for the spelling help, Tim Cook) form a government of national unity with his political rivals?
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Nov 8, 2023 06:19
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If I was Zelenskyy, I simply would have chosen not to be invaded by Russia.
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Nov 8, 2023 08:04
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beer_war posted:If I was Zelenskyy, I simply would have chosen not to be invaded by Russia. Frankly, one might wonder if he secretly hates the Ukrainian people given how many are dying on the front lines in his war. If he'd just capitulate the war would be over and all those brave Ukrainians could live! Won't someone think of the poor Ukrainians and surrender today?
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Nov 8, 2023 08:10
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Just surrender to Vladimir Putin's warm, loving embrace. You know you want to.
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Nov 8, 2023 08:14
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small butter posted:What about the trial verdict that he's claiming corroborates the Maidan conspiracy theory? Everyone was distracted so nobody answered, but he just plain made poo poo up. There's literally zero validity to his nonsense. The long story short was, one guy was acquitted, and the rest were sent to jail for their role in the murders. He mentions the acquittal but completely neglects to mention the many convictions.
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Nov 8, 2023 09:16
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Ponsonby Britt posted:A lot of people have said this, but like, couldn't Ukraine just end martial law whenever it wants? I don't see how that's an actual obstacle to them holding elections since it was their decision to implement it in the first place. Martial law literally means the law applicable in times of war. Do you think lifting it is a good idea while at war?
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Nov 8, 2023 11:23
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Do anyone understand that Dnipro river stuff Ukraine is doing? It never seems to go anywhere and the moment the Russians would really react they would be screwed wiith troops on the right bank (and some vehicles apparently) and no logistics.
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Nov 8, 2023 12:27
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https://twitter.com/rprose/status/1722215385095880753?t=7PAC_nGuWNGOxQaUZL7vRA&s=19 Service Guarantees Freedom
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Nov 8, 2023 12:43
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fatherboxx posted:https://twitter.com/rprose/status/1722215385095880753?t=7PAC_nGuWNGOxQaUZL7vRA&s=19 Yep: https://twitter.com/den_kazansky/status/1721995696122089625#m ...supposedly a nazi who was supposed to be serving 16 years for double murder and got into StormZ got cluster ammo'd near Avdiivka. Thanks Brandon! (Dunno about tweeter account, but seem to be screenshots from regnum, which I am too lazy to verify)
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Nov 8, 2023 13:36
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OAquinas posted:Plus the whole "it's literally illegal to hold elections in Ukraine during martial law" deal. We can't just change the law, that would be impossible!
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Nov 8, 2023 13:54
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Not So Fast posted:We can't just change the law, that would be impossible! Why was the law put in place? Do those reasons still hold? Chesterton’s Fence is probably good guidance here. Ukrainian lawmakers explicitly made elections not permissible during martial law: what scenario do you think they anticipated for that if not “elections are due but martial law is in force because there is a loving war on”? What do you know that they didn’t?
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Nov 8, 2023 14:00
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Many months ago, I posted in this thread that I was opposed to the USA funding another forever war without at least raising taxes to pay for the cost I would summarize the response I got as follows: Daslog you are an idiot, deficits don't matter and this is not a forever war and Ukraine can win. I still haven't changed my position, but it looks to me that Russia is executing on their traditional was strategy of lose, lose, lose, lose, and then win by exhaustion while absorbing enormous casualties that screw themselves up for generations. Now I'm not nearly as close to the conflict as many of you goons are, but I still don't see how Russia loses outside of a bullet in the Kremlin.
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Nov 8, 2023 14:05
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 11:24 |
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daslog posted:Many months ago, I posted in this thread that I was opposed to the USA funding another forever war without at least raising taxes to pay for the cost I would summarize the response I got as follows: Daslog you are an idiot, deficits don't matter and this is not a forever war and Ukraine can win. "win by exhaustion" is not some kind of deus ex machina that just happens to Russia after a certain amount of time. It "happened" in WW2 because of a certain set of conditions which included vast amounts of equipment sent to them by the US to prevent them collapsing after they lost most of their own equipment in the early stages of the German invasion. In fact, you could just as reasonably say that russia "lost by exhaustion" in Afghanistan, it could also be said to have happened in WW1, so by your logic they are now guaranteed to lose in Ukraine after a certain amount of time. You might feel that Russia is guaranteed to win, but you haven't put an actual argument forward other than vague doomposting.
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Nov 8, 2023 14:34
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