Israel/Palestine

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel/Palestine

(Thread IKs: Main Paineframe, Irony Be My Shield, punishedkissinger)

KillHour: Oct 28, 2007

Sephyr posted:

Both Irish and Brazilian nationals seem to be deliberately excluded from the lists of people allowed to leave Gaza, while countries that did not press for a ceasefire or gave carte-blanche to the scouring got bumped to the front.

This seems like a bad fight to pick. Not that I think Ireland is going to declare war on Israel, but if EU citizens start dying at the hands of the IDF after being denied passage, I think it's going to be a pretty big pile of straw added to the camel's back.

# ? Nov 7, 2023 03:07

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# ? May 25, 2024 00:48

Nail Rat: Dec 29, 2000; You maniacs! You blew it up! God damn you! God damn you all to hell!!

Sephyr posted:

Both Irish and Brazilian nationals seem to be deliberately excluded from the lists of people allowed to leave Gaza, while countries that did not press for a ceasefire or gave carte-blanche to the scouring got bumped to the front.

So much for "they can go live in Ireland"

# ? Nov 7, 2023 03:39

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

KillHour posted:

This seems like a bad fight to pick. Not that I think Ireland is going to declare war on Israel, but if EU citizens start dying at the hands of the IDF after being denied passage, I think it's going to be a pretty big pile of straw added to the camel's back.

what do you mean 'if they start dying' they already are

# ? Nov 7, 2023 04:01

KillHour: Oct 28, 2007

Herstory Begins Now posted:

what do you mean 'if they start dying' they already are

I totally forgot Israel already merc'd a bunch of journalists like a week ago, and I'm sure there are EU citizens among the doctors and aid workers who were killed.

I still feel like telling an EU citizen they aren't allowed to leave is an escalation beyond even that.

KillHour fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Nov 7, 2023

# ? Nov 7, 2023 04:55

Bloody Pom: Jun 5, 2011

If that's the case, then what can the EU and other countries with nationals trapped in Palestine do in response? Would the EU imposing sanctions even make a dent considering the US is all-in on supporting Israel?

# ? Nov 7, 2023 05:00

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Sephyr posted:

Both Irish and Brazilian nationals seem to be deliberately excluded from the lists of people allowed to leave Gaza, while countries that did not press for a ceasefire or gave carte-blanche to the scouring got bumped to the front.

To quote Nigel Farage, �up the �RA!�

# ? Nov 7, 2023 05:00

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Sephyr posted:

Both Irish and Brazilian nationals seem to be deliberately excluded from the lists of people allowed to leave Gaza, while countries that did not press for a ceasefire or gave carte-blanche to the scouring got bumped to the front.

I've been looking for an actual source on this, and as far as I can tell, it's nonsense. A bunch of idiots misunderstood a couple news articles, took their erroneous conclusions to hyperbolically-exaggerated levels, and started passing it around among the sections of Twitter that are eager for any excuse to be even madder at Israel.

The original source appears to be a couple of Irish and Brazilian reports, like this one, saying that no Irish or Brazilian nationals have been approved to leave Gaza yet. However, there is absolutely no indication whatsoever that those two countries are being singled out in any way. Of the 8,000 foreign nationals in Gaza, only a few hundred have been permitted to leave so far, since the evacuations started only a couple of days ago.

The slow pace of evacuation might seem a little baffling, but early word from successful evacuees so far is that the whole process is a massive clusterfuck: the evacuation arrangements have to be worked out with Israel, Qatar, and Egypt, there's no transparency at all, and various countries are all sending diplomats to jockey for those limited evacuation slots. US officials have alleged that Hamas is causing delays by trying to "sneak" fighters out with the wounded (although the way it's worded, it looks more like Hamas wanted to evacuate wounded fighters along with the other wounded), the evacuees are being told they have three days to get the gently caress out of Egypt because Egypt doesn't want them, and there's reports that European countries aren't paying too much attention to their evacuees once they get out of the country.

Here's one description of what British evacuees are dealing with, via the Guardian, which quotes an evacuee in calling it "absolute chaos":

quote:

�Absolute chaos�: first Briton to cross from Gaza to Egypt describes ordeal
Abdel Hammad took 10 hours to get to Egypt and will not receive support from UK Foreign Office to fly home

A British surgeon who was stranded in Gaza has described scenes of �absolute chaos� at the Rafah crossing after becoming one of the first UK nationals to cross into Egypt.

Abdel Hammad, 67, a transplant surgeon from Liverpool working for a charity in Gaza, told his son Salim Hammad that he was stuck on a bus for five hours with 54 others as he waited to be given the go-ahead to cross into Egypt.

Salim, a doctor living in Goring, Oxfordshire, said his father finally entered Egypt at about 3.10pm, having set off at 5am. �He�s making his way down with the help of the Foreign Office to Cairo, and then hopefully from there will be able to travel home,� the 34-year-old told the Guardian. �I think the overriding emotion is just relief that he�s finally out and safe. I�m just happy to see him soon.�

The Labour frontbencher Jess Phillips said Britons were not getting out quickly enough, arguing that the government�s diplomatic efforts did not appear to be having �much sway�.

Another UK national waiting to be evacuated from Gaza said the Foreign Office had told him that the British government would pay for two nights� accommodation in Cairo but would not facilitate flights. The Londoner, who did not want to be named, said he received a message saying: �Once you have passed into Egypt, we will provide you transport to Cairo and two nights� accommodation should you need it. We are not facilitating flights from Egypt at this time.�

In another message sent on Thursday afternoon, the rapid deployment team messaged the man saying: �We can offer some support with planning your onward travel but we are not at present facilitating flights from Cairo to the UK � this is at your own cost.�

He told the Guardian: �I�m just sick that the British government has abandoned us.�

The Foreign Office said the Rafah border crossing with Egypt was being opened for �controlled and time-limited periods to allow specific groups of foreign nationals and the seriously wounded to leave�.

It said it had agreed with Egyptian and Israeli authorities a list of British nationals who wanted to leave Gaza, and added on Wednesday evening that the first UK nationals had been allowed across.

There appeared to be no British nationals on the latest list, published on Thursday, of those eligible to leave, which included 400 US citizens and dozens of Europeans. It is possible, however, that UK nationals were listed as either dual or �international� under their citizenship.

The Foreign Office confirmed on Thursday afternoon that more Britons had crossed. �We can confirm that more British nationals have been able to cross into Egypt from Gaza via the Rafah crossing today. We continue to work with Egyptian and Israeli authorities to support all those seeking to leave in the coming days,� a spokesperson said.

Only two of the 500 or so people on Wednesday�s list were British. Downing Street confirmed to the Press Association that two UK aid workers were among those who had made it to Egypt, where border force officials were positioned to assist them.

But Abdel Hammad, one of the two Britons on Wednesday�s list, was not able to cross on Wednesday afternoon because he was told the border was closed. Salim said his father and the other British aid worker on the list made their way back to the crossing on Thursday morning.

�Early in the morning they got to the Palestinian side of the border. He sent me a message saying it was absolute chaos, and nobody really knew what was going on or how they were going to process things,� Salim said.

�Then they moved them through and put them on a bus to get through to the Egyptian side, and then that�s where things just broke down in terms of communication. Nobody really knew what was going on. And they waited on that bus for about five hours until the Egyptians let them carry on through to process them out of the Egyptian side of the crossing.�

Ahmad Abou-Foul, who has 16 family members trapped in Gaza, expressed dismay that no UK citizens appeared to be on the latest list of foreign passport holders allowed to leave the strip.

The head and neck surgeon, who works across the University Hospitals Birmingham trust, said the Foreign Office had not provided any assurances that British nationals would be prioritised soon. It is thought 200 British or dual nationals are trapped in the Palestinian territory.

�There was another list just published a few hours ago; the majority are Americans, many South Americans and Europeans but still no British nationals included in that list, which is very surprising,� he told BBC Radio 4�s Today programme.

Abou-Foul described his family�s daily struggles as the conflict entered its fourth week, after Hamas�s attacks in Israel on 7 October in which more than 1,400 people were killed. The Palestinian death toll has passed 9,000, according to the Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza.

Phillips, the MP for Birmingham Yardley, told Radio 4�s World at One programme that there �doesn�t seem to be much movement in getting British people out of Gaza� as she referenced Abou-Foul�s ordeal.

The Foreign Office said: �We have agreed a list of British nationals that want to leave Gaza with Egyptian and Israeli authorities. We will be informed in advance when those on the list can use the crossing to ensure we can provide assistance.�

There's also a lot of family separations going on, as both American and British nationals have reported that only people with foreign citizenship are being allowed to leave, and their dependents and relatives that don't have citizenship are being forced to stay behind.

# ? Nov 7, 2023 06:21

Fuschia tude: Dec 26, 2004; THUNDERDOME LOSER 2019

KillHour posted:

I totally forgot Israel already merc'd a bunch of journalists like a week ago, and I'm sure there are EU citizens among the doctors and aid workers who were killed.

The UN just said more of their aid workers were killed in the last four weeks than in every other 4-week period in the history of the UN. I'm sure there are.

# ? Nov 7, 2023 20:16

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

https://twitter.com/evanhill/status/1721901169650630834

# ? Nov 7, 2023 23:50

Irony Be My Shield: Jul 29, 2012

This is a pretty good article on details surrounding the Hamas attack. Obviously there's still some fog of war surrounding it but the article tries to mention facts that have been corroborated by both sides.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/07/secret-hamas-attack-orders-israel-gaza-7-october

quote:

The exact role of different Hamas leaders in the attack is yet to be established, but it is clear that Sinwar and Deif were central to its planning.
[...]
Sinwar, 61, also a founding member of Hamas � an acronym for Islamic Resistance Movement � spent 23 years in Israeli jails for killing Israeli soldiers before being released among more than 1,000 prisoners swapped in 2011 for Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier captured by Hamas five years earlier.
[...]
On his release, Sinwar said his experience had taught him that capturing Israeli soldiers was the only way to free prisoners.

It's worth noting this particular fact - I think it's why Israel is very unlikely to release any Palestinian prisoners in exchange for the hostages. There were plenty who argued that the prisoner swap for Shalit was dangerous, and they will seem very vindicated by one of those prisoners going on to plan October 7th, and even specifically citing that trade as a reason why he'd go for a mass hostage taking attack.

A notable development today is that Netanyahu gave a speech that, while vague, could indicate an intention to reoccupy Gaza.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/07/netanyahu-israel-consider-tactical-pauses-gaza

quote:

He added: �Israel will for an indefinite period � have the overall security responsibility [in Gaza] because we�ve seen what happens when we don�t have that security responsibility.�

Re-occupation of Gaza would definitely be a step back for peace, but it does seem like a fairly inevitable outcome of this campaign. Israel will not accept continued Hamas rule so it's likely to be their only option even if they don't want to do it (I do think the idea of international occupation would have been a lot better but there were issues that made it unlikely to happen - eg Israel hating obvious supranational candidates like the UN, and the US and regional actors ruling themselves out of any peacekeeping efforts).

This coincides with Israel claiming that Gaza is now "encircled" and that they're storming the city. It's hard to verify facts on the ground right now though due Gaza's internet being mostly down again.

Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Nov 8, 2023

# ? Nov 8, 2023 01:27

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

Feel like that's the kind of announcement you would make when you're actually in the city suppressing the opposing army, and not stalking the outskirts gunning down civilian convoys on the highway. How much of a stomach does Israel's public even have for the idea of eternally policing Gaza? Even putting aside the level of casualties that would involve, enough of Israel is composed of American expats, and they've referred to 9/11 enough times, that the occupation of both Iraq and Afghanistan should probably be on their minds. Neither of which went all that well! Not even for 'deradicalization'!

When I've seen Israeli radicals it's been along the lines of "we're going to push out everyone in Gaza into the desert!" or "Gazans will be Egyptians by the time we're done!" or "We're gonna leave Gaza a smoking crater!" or "We're gonna build a theme park on top of Gaza!", I don't hear "We're gonna try to set up a policing force atop miles of tunnels in the middle of a hostile city, so that our sons and daughters can get shot every day!" as much.

Saw this in the other thread, but didn't want to share it here because I feel like there's been enough Oct 7 litigation, but since it's relevant:

https://twitter.com/Israel/status/1721802362526810389

Whoever runs Israel's twitter account noticed all the protests where people carry a bloc-long list of dead Palestinians, took to making their own. The weird thing is that half the names are given military honors; obviously most Israelis are conscripted, but wouldn't abiding by that mean everyone would have the honors? By Haaretz' own accounting IDF/Police combatants are still only around 33% of the 1150 confirmed casualties.

Obviously could be a deliberate choice, though I'd argue a bad one for the current climate.

E: For the record, my position's been that Haaretz' numbers are probably accurate, that the majority of civilians probably died to Gazans, and that the IDF were probably responsible for civilian casualties but not the majority. I'd probably chalk it up to Israel propaganda being poorly thought out, as has been the case for the entirety of the war.

Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Nov 8, 2023

# ? Nov 8, 2023 01:43

Willo567: Feb 5, 2015; Cheating helped me fail the test and stay on the show.

https://twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1721994624661639347
These people are nuts

# ? Nov 8, 2023 02:29

alf_pogs: Feb 15, 2012

"of course we could use nukes! but would we? also yes"

# ? Nov 8, 2023 03:01

Brucolac: Jun 14, 2012

Neurolimal posted:

Saw this in the other thread, but didn't want to share it here because I feel like there's been enough Oct 7 litigation, but since it's relevant:

https://twitter.com/Israel/status/1721802362526810389

Whoever runs Israel's twitter account noticed all the protests where people carry a bloc-long list of dead Palestinians, took to making their own. The weird thing is that half the names are given military honors; obviously most Israelis are conscripted, but wouldn't abiding by that mean everyone would have the honors? By Haaretz' own accounting IDF/Police combatants are still only around 33% of the 1150 confirmed casualties.

Obviously could be a deliberate choice, though I'd argue a bad one for the current climate.

E: For the record, my position's been that Haaretz' numbers are probably accurate, that the majority of civilians probably died to Gazans, and that the IDF were probably responsible for civilian casualties but not the majority. I'd probably chalk it up to Israel propaganda being poorly thought out, as has been the case for the entirety of the war.

This is bizarre. Why on earth would Israel want to make Oct-7 look more like a military operation?

Edit: Unless those names are primarily from the military first responders teams?

Brucolac fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Nov 8, 2023

# ? Nov 8, 2023 03:11

Lovely Joe Stalin: Jun 12, 2007; Our Lovely Wang

Willo567 posted:

https://twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1721994624661639347
These people are nuts

It's certainly a good example of how not to be mindful of your audience when speaking publicly.

# ? Nov 8, 2023 03:12

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Willo567 posted:

https://twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1721994624661639347
These people are nuts

This is an out-of-context quote from some random-rear end pop historian, with no particular connections to the Israeli military or political establishments, speaking about a wildly hypothetical full-scale assault on Israel by both Lebanon and Iran at the same time, on a Japanese TV show, three weeks ago. Despite Middle East Eye calling him a "political activist", the full extent of his political involvement appears to be having once criticized Netanyahu during an episode of a popular podcast.

If you mean that Yuval Noah Harari is nuts, well, he goes on a month-long silent meditation retreat each year and then writes books comparing humans to chimpanzees and predicting that we'll be out-evolved by cyborgs.

Brucolac posted:

This is bizarre. Why on earth would Israel want to make Oct-7 look more like a military operation?

Edit: Unless those names are primarily from the military first responders teams?

I suspect the answer is "they don't expect the audience to spend any time at all trying to actually read those tiny-rear end names, so they didn't really bother fussing with it too much". Anyone who expends that much effort into actually probing their random propaganda tweets already has their mind made up one way or another.

# ? Nov 8, 2023 03:32

Willo567: Feb 5, 2015; Cheating helped me fail the test and stay on the show.

Would Israel even use nukes if only Hezbollah opened a second front, or would they be fine to just use conventional means?

# ? Nov 8, 2023 03:37

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Willo567 posted:

Would Israel even use nukes if only Hezbollah opened a second front, or would they be fine to just use conventional means?

They will personally target your house, exclusively, as a warning to Hezbollah, I'm afraid.

# ? Nov 8, 2023 03:38

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

Nukes are a deterrent against existential threat; essentially "dont invade us because if we have nothing to lose we will fire this". No matter how much jingoism gets belted out, nukes won't be a factor unless there's an army marching towards Tel Aviv.

That said, 2020's appear to be the decade of national leaders making the worst possible decisions, so I get the unease....But there's no feasible way for Israel to escape nuking Gaza. And I dont mean politically; the literal fallout would be inescapable for the rest of Israel.

# ? Nov 8, 2023 03:40

Willo567: Feb 5, 2015; Cheating helped me fail the test and stay on the show.

Neurolimal posted:

Nukes are a deterrent against existential threat; essentially "dont invade us because if we have nothing to lose we will fire this". No matter how much jingoism gets belted out, nukes won't be a factor unless there's an army marching towards Tel Aviv.

That said, 2020's appear to be the decade of national leaders making the worst possible decisions, so I get the unease....But there's no feasible way for Israel to escape nuking Gaza. And I dont mean politically; the literal fallout would be inescapable for the rest of Israel.

Would Hezbollah firing all of their missiles at Israel not count as existential? Also, I'm not worried about them nuking Gaza - it's them nuking Lebanon I'm scared of

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Nov 8, 2023 03:50

fez_machine: Nov 27, 2004

Willo567 posted:

Would Hezbollah firing all of their missiles at my balls not count as existential? Also, I'm not worried about them nuking my taint - it's them nuking my hole I'm scared of

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Nov 8, 2023 04:21

Willo567: Feb 5, 2015; Cheating helped me fail the test and stay on the show.

I don't see how my concern is so unrealistic when Israel has been essentially sending Gaza back to the stone age. It's terrifying to imagine how they would do war with Lebanon if Hezbollah becomes fully involved

# ? Nov 8, 2023 04:24

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

Israel is not going to nuke anyone. They have no need to. They're achieving the same thing with conventional means.

# ? Nov 8, 2023 04:49

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

fez_machine posted:

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

This did not fall short of the humour exception, I'd just like to make that point.

# ? Nov 8, 2023 05:14

EvilBlackRailgun: Jan 28, 2007

Israel would lose all favor with everyone if they used nukes and they know this

Like someone said above it�s just a deterrent

# ? Nov 8, 2023 05:31

HootTheOwl: May 13, 2012; Hootin and shootin

EvilBlackRailgun posted:

Israel would lose all favor with everyone if they used nukes and they know this

Like someone said above it�s just a deterrent

They wouldn't lose favor, they'd be utterly destroyed.
You can't just use nukes

# ? Nov 8, 2023 06:56

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Israel can bomb the bejesus out of Lebanon well before using nukes. They did it in 2006. I imagine Hezbollah's heavier rockets could do a lot of damage too but most of what they have are shorter-range rocket artillery, so 150,000 rocket sounds like a lot, and it is, but think about the shell usage per day in Ukraine. The bulk of those rockets are limited in range and would land in northern Israel which would take the brunt of it. They have heavier weapons that can reach Tel Aviv.

Hezbollah's poor performance in this war so far is interesting. It seems like they're constrained by political requirements in which the leadership doesn't want to engage fully, but they have to demonstrate their solidarity in some way, so they're limited to skirmishing and peppering northern Israel with small numbers of rockets. But who knows how many Israeli troops are on the northern border, and how many drones they have zipping around and scanning every olive ground with thermal cameras.

It sounds like Hezbollah teams are trying to rush the border to spring raids with ATGMs fired at Israeli posts and vehicles, but they're being killing by these drones. They have these slick propaganda videos and P.R. but their military strategy seems to be to draw Israeli troops into the rough and confusing terrain of southern Lebanon. But Israel seems like it's sitting back and letting Hezbollah show itself. Here's some of their fancy P.R. (I like the slick logo with the stylized AK gun barrel):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E18zgNVum98

It's not necessarily comforting for Israel though, these Hezbollah units launching attacks from south of the Litani River (they're not "supposed to be there") are technically in violation of the cease fire after the 2006 war (but oh well).

There's the question of "did Hezbollah know about the Oct. 6 raid." But I'm wondering if Hezbollah is just in a bad position to fight a war because it has already been fighting one in Syria for a long time. Are they overextended? Tired? Disorganized? Israel has also probably assassinated several Hezbollah military commanders in recent years. If you do some searching you can turn up articles about several of these guys with the cause of death listed as: "group of gunmen" in Lebanon and "car bomb" and "blast near airport in Syria."

Or they've concluded with Iran that if they enter the war in full force, Israel and possibly the U.S. will destroy them. Hezbollah's real job is to serve as Iran's second-strike capability and they don't want to lose it.

BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Nov 8, 2023

# ? Nov 8, 2023 07:08

Staluigi: Jun 22, 2021

Willo567 posted:

I don't see how my concern is so unrealistic

Yeah, we know. You have got to scale back on your anxious attachment to world news

# ? Nov 8, 2023 07:09

swamp thong: Nov 6, 2023

PT6A posted:

This did not fall short of the humour exception, I'd just like to make that point.

using the small target strategy is no laughing matter

# ? Nov 8, 2023 07:13

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

Where's that Shadow President gif of Israel getting nuked and the player getting immediately locked out of everything and a game over lol

# ? Nov 8, 2023 08:00

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

HonorableTB posted:

Where's that Shadow President gif of Israel getting nuked and the player getting immediately locked out of everything and a game over lol

# ? Nov 8, 2023 09:01

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

Mods change their username to Ms Exceeds Expectations pls

# ? Nov 8, 2023 09:18

Hong XiuQuan: Feb 19, 2008; "Without justice for the Palestinians there will be no peace in the Middle East."

Brucolac posted:

This is bizarre. Why on earth would Israel want to make Oct-7 look more like a military operation?

The people they're appealing to are idiots. The others they don't care so much about. The people who lap up fake Arabic recordings between people who can barely string a sentence together in Levantine Arabic and are talking about livestreaming playing football with heads are not going to be questioning names on a page.

The people they're appealing to are idiots. Every solider is considered a murder victim by this crowd and not a valid military loss. The 340 or whatever it is now military dead are treated widely as massacred. Israel only ever talks about civilian dead. The people receptive to that message are not going to be reading the small print to see hundreds of military names and think "wait a second, this is a higher ratio of military to civilians than we've ever managed!"

The people they're appealing to are idiots. Or at a generous stretch naive.They can't possibly fathom that Israel is capable of war crimes. The brave armed forces of the IDF are desperately trying to avoid civilian casualties. The fight against a bloodthirsty enemy that uses Jewish blood in their khubz. Which makes it easy to believe that there is a Hamas command centre in or under every hospital, school, mosque and crate of bottled water.

The people they're appealing to are idiots. They think history started on October 7th. They would be horrified for continued arguments that Tel Aviv should be utterly leveled to root out the Israeli military in response to 2 or 3,000 dead in Sabra and Shatila. They would be disgusted by claims that Ma'ale Adumim and Ariel should have their populations erased if they stick around because of Deir Yassin where pregnant women did indeed have their babies torn out and a baker was forced to watch his son go into an oven. But once a horrible, criminal massacre occurs in Israel? Wipe them out, all of them. They're receptive to anything that bolsters this message.

Israel is appealing to the idiots who are already going at full-clip. It's the people who write about and gleefully disseminate the *hilariously* fake Ahed Tamimi Instagram post leading to her kidnapping and imprisonment without trial of the Israeli state. It's appealing to the idiots who have seen that girl standing up to the Israeli military since she was a child finally getting their satisfaction: no, not a symbol of resistance nor a brave human unwilling to take anymore - she's just a vicious antisemite who needs to be clipped.

Why is Israel appealing to idiots? Mostly hoping that these idiots will exercise influence in communities, in media and in politics. All you need is a smattering to lap up whatever you've got, distributed by Megaphone or the Southern Responders channel or the IDF Spokesperson and your stupid messages will be carried around like ripples on a still pond.

# ? Nov 8, 2023 09:53

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Hong XiuQuan posted:

The people they're appealing to are idiots. Every solider is considered a murder victim by this crowd and not a valid military loss. The 340 or whatever it is now military dead are treated widely as massacred. Israel only ever talks about civilian dead. The people receptive to that message are not going to be reading the small print to see hundreds of military names and think "wait a second, this is a higher ratio of military to civilians than we've ever managed!"

Would it even matter? Imagine if thousands of American soldiers were killed in a surprise attack. What would the United States do? Does Hamas report any Hamas military deaths as anything other than civilian? I think there are thousands of civilians in the death toll but there could be a few battalions of soldiers in there. I think you're right but I think war generally seems to make people stupid. People also are capable of heroic actions and I'm sure Hamas has its heroes as well.

# ? Nov 8, 2023 10:31

Hong XiuQuan: Feb 19, 2008; "Without justice for the Palestinians there will be no peace in the Middle East."

BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

Would it even matter? Imagine if thousands of American soldiers were killed in a surprise attack. What would the United States do? Does Hamas report any Hamas military deaths as anything other than civilian? I think there are thousands of civilians in the death toll but there could be a few battalions of soldiers in there. I think you're right but I think war generally seems to make people stupid. People also are capable of heroic actions and I'm sure Hamas has its heroes as well.

Absolutely it matters! Yes, US might have behaved equally if a bunch of soldiers attacked vs civilians but the *legitimacy of the attack* would be another thing. If precision targeting Israel is killing ten civilians to every terrorist or militant and Hamas is killing 3 to every member of the IDF, then questions need to be asked about legitimacy and action.

# ? Nov 8, 2023 10:38

Irony Be My Shield: Jul 29, 2012

The 300 soldiers killed during October 7th don't mean that Hamas somehow gets free reign to rampage through multiple civilian-only targets, killing over a thousand people.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Nov 8, 2023 10:40

Hong XiuQuan: Feb 19, 2008; "Without justice for the Palestinians there will be no peace in the Middle East."

Irony Be My Shield posted:

The 300 soldiers killed during October 7th don't mean that Hamas somehow gets free reign to rampage through multiple civilian-only targets, killing over a thousand people.

You're absolutely right. The 400 or so soldiers doesn't mean that! And it doesn't matter that there are more than 50 years of occupation leading up to October 7th. And the 20 year blockade on Gaza doesn't matter. Nothing justifies war crimes.

Now we have 10,000 dead Palestinians including 4,000 murdered children. Aggravated by Israel's status as a military power and as a long-term occupier with a string of massacres and war crimes to its name.

What do you propose doing about this terrorist state?

# ? Nov 8, 2023 10:54

Zzulu: May 15, 2009; (â°ËvËâ°)

BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

Would it even matter? Imagine if thousands of American soldiers were killed in a surprise attack. What would the United States do?

I mean you don't have to guess because Japan did this in WW2 and America destroyed 3 cities with aerial bombardment. Including the capital which they firebombed to ensure maximum destruction and loss of life and two cities of which they nuked, killing hundreds of thousands of civilians in total

# ? Nov 8, 2023 11:15

ChubbyChecker: Mar 25, 2018

man, i never would have thought that harari was a lying hosed up zionist

# ? Nov 8, 2023 13:20

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# ? May 25, 2024 00:48

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

According to the IDF, they are now operating within Gaza City proper.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-says-it-is-open-gaza-fighting-pauses-aid-hostages-2023-11-07/

quote:

Troops on foot and in armoured vehicles and tanks "have one target - Hamas terrorists in Gaza, their infrastructure, their commanders, bunkers, communications rooms," Gallant said.

Hamas' most senior leader in Gaza, Yahya Sinwar, was isolated in his bunker, Gallant said, adding it was Sinwar "who a month ago made the murderous decision to attack Israeli civilians, women, and children."

[...]

"We are increasing pressure on Hamas every hour, every day. So far, we have killed thousands of terrorists, above ground and below ground," Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said in a televised statement.

The Israeli military said Hamas militants fired anti-tank missiles at Israeli forces from nearby hospitals and soldiers found weapons hidden in a school in northern Gaza.

The military wing of Hamas, which has ruled the small, densely populated enclave for 16 years, said its fighters were inflicting heavy losses and damage on advancing Israeli forces.

Either we will see a sharp increase in Israeli casualties very soon, or Hamas' urban warfare plan wasn't that great after all.

# ? Nov 8, 2023 13:30

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