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Lum_ posted:Benny Gantz, who effectively is running the war, yesterday told an Israeli from the border region who asked "will I see the ocean from my house when the war is over" explicitly no, at the end of the day there will still be a Gaza with Gazans in it. I mean half of Gaza more or less no longer has Gazans in it, and even if they move back after the war, their homes have been levelled by the IDF and looted by settlers. So in this case I don't think it's unreasonable to look at the actions of Israel and go "lol, lmao" at any statements to the contrary.
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Nov 7, 2023 17:23
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Given the lack of clarity on what comes next, I worry the public statements that Israel seeks no expulsion will give way to facts on the ground.
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Nov 7, 2023 17:44
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Lum_ posted:Pretty sure the goal is for the Palestinian Authority or a similar cut-out to have "governing responsibility" in Gaza while being disarmed and with Israel having the ability to go in and arrest whomever they want at will. That's been the situation in PA-run areas of the West Bank for the past 20 years. Technically not occupation since IDF troops aren't posted there full time, but far from anything approaching sovereignity. The West Bank *is* technically occupied. The PA has some authority but Israel enters the territory at will to exert its authority and the PA formally accepts that authority. It's Gaza that isn't technically occupied, though with the years of blockade it might as well be. I don't know that Israel will go back to occupying the West Bank. This was tried and abandoned before. I still kinda expect a mass expulsion of people. No idea how that would work as nobody wants a bunch of Palestinian refugees. But occupation has been tried, and blockade has been tried. I'm not sure what the other option is.
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Nov 7, 2023 18:15
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Let them have Gaza?
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Nov 7, 2023 18:45
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"Occupation with recurring military operations will continue until status quo improves"
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Nov 7, 2023 18:46
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PurpleXVI posted:looted by settlers Curious who you think is looting bombed out ruins in a very active urban war zone.
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Nov 7, 2023 18:55
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Lum_ posted:Curious who you think is looting bombed out ruins in a very active urban war zone. I'm trying to track it down, but not long after the start of the fighting there were some videos of Israeli settlers looting Palestinian farms(even to the extent of stripping the olive trees, what the gently caress) after the Palestinians had cleared out to not get caught in the fighting, and when they hadn't cleared out, shooting anyone who objected. It might have been from an earlier conflict, admittedly, but the Gaza Strip doesn't just have urban zones, so it's plausible. https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/11/6/our-hearts-burn-gazas-olive-farmers-say-israel-war-destroys-harvest
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Nov 7, 2023 20:05
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PurpleXVI posted:I'm trying to track it down, but not long after the start of the fighting there were some videos of Israeli settlers looting Palestinian farms(even to the extent of stripping the olive trees, what the gently caress) after the Palestinians had cleared out to not get caught in the fighting, and when they hadn't cleared out, shooting anyone who objected. Settlers making small raids like this into Palestinian farms is pretty normal in this conflict (as are Palestinian raids). This sort of thing is kinda par for the course when it comes to neighbors conflicting over land. By which I mean yes it is entirely plausible and I assume it's happening in the West Bank as well as we speak.
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Nov 7, 2023 20:37
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PurpleXVI posted:I'm trying to track it down, but not long after the start of the fighting there were some videos of Israeli settlers looting Palestinian farms(even to the extent of stripping the olive trees, what the gently caress) after the Palestinians had cleared out to not get caught in the fighting, and when they hadn't cleared out, shooting anyone who objected. It's almost certainly from the West Bank, where hilltop youth (extremist far right/religious fundamentalist maniac settlers) have been trying to start a second war with the Palestinians since the war started. Stripping olive trees in the West Bank is a common settler tactic; it takes away the Palestinian's means of supporting themselves and encourages them to leave. AKA ethnic cleansing. The thought of civilians looting Gaza (or that Gaza even has anything to loot at this point other then piles of rubble) is ridiculous. Count Roland posted:Settlers making small raids like this into Palestinian farms is pretty normal in this conflict (as are Palestinian raids). This sort of thing is kinda par for the course when it comes to neighbors conflicting over land. In the West Bank, yes. Before 10/7 Gaza was entirely closed off by large walls, and after 10/7 the IDF has made the entire area surrounding Gaza in Israel a military exclusion zone. Lum_ fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Nov 7, 2023 |
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Nov 7, 2023 20:40
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CommieGIR posted:Its like the lesson the Israeli Government learned from the Holocaust was: Next time, be the boot rather than subject to the boot. I don't think they've tried to conceal that, ever.
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Nov 7, 2023 22:39
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They've also had commanders quoted as saying the only differences between them and Guderian's Wehrmacht are that they won't persecute Jews and they won't lose.
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Nov 8, 2023 00:40
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Lum_ posted:They've also had commanders quoted as saying the only differences between them and Guderian's Wehrmacht are that they won't persecute Jews and they won't lose. I tried googling the key words and checking some old news archives, but relevant key words only got me Amiram Levin and Yair Golan. Both Israeli Army generals. One news article in English: https://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-idf-general-likens-military-control-of-west-bank-to-nazi-germany/ quote:Former IDF General and Mossad Chief likening IDF's oppression on West Bank to the Nazi Regime and stating that "IDF is rotten to the core... just like Guderian can't claim to be a decent general of a clean wehrmacht... there hasn't been democracy in Judea and Samaria in 57 years. These people (referring to the settlers) do not know what democracy is..." (Loose translation from several sources, could be slightly wrong). The other IDF General saying Wehrmacht and Guderian was Yair Golan quote:"If there is one thing that is scary in remembering the Holocaust, it is noticing horrific processes which developed in Europe – particularly in Germany – 70, 80, and 90 years ago, and finding remnants of that here (in Israel) among us in the year 2016.... Neither seem to be what you mean. Got a link? Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Nov 8, 2023 |
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Nov 8, 2023 02:16
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The quote I'm thinking of dates from decades back and I don't have a link handy, sorry. Tried searching but Google is pretty useless what with the current war. I think it was James Dunnigan (the wargame designer) who quoted it.
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Nov 8, 2023 03:52
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The only Palestinian American in Congress was just censured https://twitter.com/CraigCaplan/status/1722093820718813652?s=20
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Nov 8, 2023 04:58
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Countdown until some GOP shithead tries to get her indicted for treason.
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Nov 8, 2023 05:45
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Kazinsal posted:Countdown until some GOP shithead tries to get her indicted for treason. Majorie apparently tried to censure her for “leading an insurrection” but that didn’t pass
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Nov 8, 2023 05:58
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Who are the 22 dem chuds?
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Nov 8, 2023 06:03
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Mustang posted:Who are the 22 dem chuds? Debbie Wasserman Schultz among others https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/118-2023/h622
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Nov 8, 2023 06:10
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Proud Christian Mom posted:The only Palestinian American in Congress was just censured What the Actual gently caress? Are they going to upgrade the congressional dress code to explicitly forbid head scarves next? This whole thing is pissing me off. Yes, Isreal has a right to exist. Yes, they have the right to control their territory. Yes, they have the right to dispute what is and is not their territory to the UN. They do NOT have the right to drive a people into the sea. They do not have the right to genocide. The the civilized nations of the world should be CLOWNING on isreal for doing what was done to them and not being able to realize they've become the baddies. Someone else on these forums recently said it in a way that I thought made sense; I'm paraphrasing: "Your average isreali highschool kid, after passing the history class unit on the Holocaust, either thinks "This must never happen again", or "this must never happen again TO US". The folks who think the latter is OK seem to be the isreali equivalant of MAGA folks.
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Nov 8, 2023 06:16
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Tiny posted:"Your average isreali highschool kid, after passing the history class unit on the Holocaust, either thinks "This must never happen again", or "this must never happen again TO US". The folks who think the latter is OK seem to be the isreali equivalant of MAGA folks. Trump is extremely popular in Israel.  "Netanyahu - In Another League". Campaign poster playing up his personal connection to Trump (there's another one with Putin, which also didn't age well.) So "Israeli MAGA folks" are in fact the majority, and yes, they are pretty much of the "Never Again (to us)" variety. Especially after 10/7, Gazans aren't seen as innocent, or even human; referring to them as "animals" in government statements has been depressingly common. Yoav Gallant, defense minister posted:We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza. There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything will be closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly. Itamar Ben-Gvir, national security minister posted:We must have zero tolerance towards the Nukhba (Hamas POW) prisoners who are being imprisoned now. Treat them with as much force as it is possible to treat these human animals. (note that in Hebrew, "human animals" (chayot adam) is frequently used to describe criminals and isn't *quite* as genocidal as it sounds in translation. It's still bad.) Ron Prosor, ambassador to Germany posted:This is civilization against barbarity. This is good against bad. This is people who basically act as animals and do not have any, any respect for children, women. Netanyahu posted:Any place Hamas deploys, in this evil city, all the places Hamas is hiding, operating — we will turn it into a ruin. With rhetoric like this being tossed around, it's hardly a wonder that the IDF isn't terribly concerned about the civilian body count.
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Nov 8, 2023 07:50
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I've heard it's like if you took the Matt Gaetz and MTG types and made them half of the Knesset, that's Israel. I think people on this forum and elsewhere are underestimating Israel. Their propaganda directed overseas is often clunky and weird and highly alienating to certain constituencies. But the propaganda for internal and domestic consumption around the IDF seems highly effective. Netanyahu's government is incompetent but there are stories of large-scale volunteering, and the military too seems to be functioning pretty cohesively. The culture seems very insular. It's interesting to me to watch some of this propaganda because it has a peculiar feeling to it. The first one is a cover of the song "I Have No Other Country" by a pretty nationalist and religious Zionist singer who's wearing a MAGA-style caps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJt9NeUgrZY Another version of the same song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtR6HF3MQKw This is a prayer for the military: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk3Q90TIcVk
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Nov 8, 2023 08:05
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Lum_ posted:Trump is extremely popular in Israel. I'm not involved and have no dog in this particular fight, but... The mostly Jewish Israelis really don't see the parallels? The demonizing, the de-humanizing a whole population? The "Othering" of "Sub-humans"? They really can't tell one attempted genocide from another? They really can't see that they're doing a 9/11 style "We got hit and we're going to destroy a whole country over it" overreaction? That's the part that is angering me enough to vote real hard about it (lol). *sigh* I'm going to go touch grass and take a nice long walk tomorrow.
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Nov 8, 2023 08:20
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david_a posted:Majorie apparently tried to censure her for “leading an insurrection” but that didn’t pass She changed the wording to “illegal occupation.” We live in the dumbest timeline.
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Nov 8, 2023 10:32
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Tiny posted:This whole thing is pissing me off. Yes, Isreal has a right to exist. Yes, they have the right to control their territory. Yes, they have the right to dispute what is and is not their territory to the UN. She's used the phrase "from the river to the sea" a few times and then tried to retcon it to mean "an aspirational call for freedom, human rights and peaceful coexistence, not death, destruction or hate." I don't agree with the censure (particularly given that many Republicans have proudly and loudly discussed replacement theory without consequence), but also her digging her heels in on this doesn't really support her messaging. psydude fucked around with this message at 11:10 on Nov 8, 2023 |
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Nov 8, 2023 11:07
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psydude posted:She's used the phrase "from the river to the sea" a few times and then tried to retcon it to mean "an aspirational call for freedom, human rights and peaceful coexistence, not death, destruction or hate." https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/2/from-the-river-to-the-sea-what-does-the-palestinian-slogan-really-mean It IS an aspirational call to freedom for Palestinians, apparently. The idea that it is a call for the destruction of Israel is Israeli propaganda.
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Nov 8, 2023 13:21
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ZombieApostate posted:https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/2/from-the-river-to-the-sea-what-does-the-palestinian-slogan-really-mean quote:The controversy on Monday reached as far as the British parliament, when the Labour Party removed [Andy] McDonald from office for saying: “We will not rest until we have justice. Until all people, Israelis and Palestinians, between the river and the sea, can live in peaceful liberty.” Welp
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Nov 8, 2023 13:31
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ZombieApostate posted:https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/2/from-the-river-to-the-sea-what-does-the-palestinian-slogan-really-mean Looks like you're right. The Guardian offers a similar analysis, albeit one that goes deeper into the notion that it's a call to genocide. It was co-opted by Hamas, who also calls for the destruction of the state of Israel. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...srael-palestine So it's basically a Rorschach test. psydude fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Nov 8, 2023 |
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Nov 8, 2023 13:38
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psydude posted:So it's basically a Rorschach test. Pretty much.
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Nov 8, 2023 13:46
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ZombieApostate posted:https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/2/from-the-river-to-the-sea-what-does-the-palestinian-slogan-really-mean I'd say you could argue it's a "call for the destruction of Israel" in the sense that any real justice for the Palestinians will not have Israel with its current defacto borders and territory, but not a "call for the destruction of Israel" in the sense that it necessarily requires the death of Israelis and the total cessation of Israel as a state.
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Nov 8, 2023 13:47
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PurpleXVI posted:I'd say you could argue it's a "call for the destruction of Israel" in the sense that any real justice for the Palestinians will not have Israel with its current defacto borders and territory, but not a "call for the destruction of Israel" in the sense that it necessarily requires the death of Israelis and the total cessation of Israel as a state. Yeah, I think the original idea was supposed to be a secular Palestinian state encompassing all of the Palestinian lands, which would encompass the current Israeli borders, making current Israel impossible. But they also wanted everyone to have equal rights, status and citizenship, whether Jewish or Arab. I am definitely not an expert though. Would it have turned out that way if they had gotten what they wished for before the creation of Israel or just the reverse of the current situation? I have no idea. It's probably safe to say Israel has made that goal much more difficult to achieve today or in the future because of their actions over the last ~70 years, though.
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Nov 8, 2023 14:08
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For some more background, this is the Yousef Munayyer piece quoted by the Guardian:Yousef Munayyer posted:“From the river to the sea” is a rejoinder to the fragmentation of Palestinian land and people by Israeli occupation and discrimination. His position is that the phrase isn't inherently anti-Israel because it's about the Palestinian experience, not Israeli sovereignty: Yousef Munayyer posted:I wasn’t concerned with Israel’s identity crisis over whether it could be both Jewish and democratic; I was concerned that Palestinians were being denied basic rights throughout their homeland. Munayyer references another piece by Maha Nasser with some more background: Maha Nassar posted:That’s how the call for a free Palestine “from the river to the sea” gained traction in the 1960s. It was part of a larger call to see a secular democratic state established in all of historic Palestine. Palestinians hoped their state would be free from oppression of all sorts, from Israeli as well as from Arab regimes. which leads to some context about Hamas's original rise in popularity that loops back around to why this discussion of rhetoric is important: Maha Nassar posted:In his 1974 speech to the UN, Fatah leader and PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat declared, “when we speak of our common hopes for the Palestine of tomorrow we include in our perspective all Jews now living in Palestine who choose to live with us there in peace and without discrimination.”
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Nov 8, 2023 14:37
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If your idea of Israel is synonymous with a nation where Jewish people have political, social, and economic privileges that aren't available to everybody-- even people who have lived in that place their whole lives and have no other nationality-- then any advocacy for not that is technically a call for "the destruction of Israel". Edit: To elaborate a bit more, there's a lot of Jewish people, especially those over 50 or living in Europe who fundamentally believe that long term everyone will eventually turn on Jewish people and try to exterminate or expel them, and the only hedge against that is a nation where Jewish and only Jewish people are in charge. The problem is that this is by definition an apartheid state and fully embracing an apartheid state leads to all kinds of incredibly dark and illiberal poo poo which is exactly what we've seen happen decade after decade in Israel. This also leads most of the cognitive dissonance among otherwise liberal and pro-democracy Jewish people that is so perplexing to everyone else. People who would never chant "BUILD THE WALL!", think Trump is an appalling racist and wanna be dictator, support everything MLK did, will accept no criticism of Israel or even acknowledge that it's an apartheid nation. This is obviously not all Jewish people and there are lots of Jewish people protesting Israel's behavior, but the opposite is also depressingly common. I have at least a half dozen longtime personal friends like that and it's just so depressing sometimes. I really don't know how you convince someone who absolutely believes that supporting and maintaining an apartheid system is the only hedge against their destruction. mrmcd fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Nov 8, 2023 |
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Nov 8, 2023 14:52
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mrmcd posted:If your idea of Israel is synonymous with a nation where Jewish people have political, social, and economic privileges that aren't available to everybody-- even people who have lived in that place their whole lives and have no other nationality-- then any advocacy for not that is technically a call for "the destruction of Israel". I read that to be Congress's intent as well. Part spite, part planting a flag in the ground to say "Anything other than unequivocal support for the second-rate citizen status of Palestinians is terrorism."
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Nov 8, 2023 15:19
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mrmcd posted:This is obviously not all Jewish people and there are lots of Jewish people protesting Israel's behavior, but the opposite is also depressingly common. I have at least a half dozen longtime personal friends like that and it's just so depressing sometimes. I really don't know how you convince someone who absolutely believes that supporting and maintaining an apartheid system is the only hedge against their destruction. Anecdotally, every hardcore zionist I know is a conservative Christian. Every Jewish friend I have wants Israel as a place that will protect Jewish people, but as a secular state that guarantees free exercise.
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Nov 8, 2023 15:35
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psydude posted:Anecdotally, every hardcore zionist I know is a conservative Christian. Every Jewish friend I have wants Israel as a place that will protect Jewish people, but as a secular state that guarantees free exercise. Yeah there's a lot of very strong support for Israel from hard right Americans that has nothing to do with Jewish identity. Some of it comes from fundamentalist eschatological Christianity. Most of it is just a mix of regional realpolitik and hating Muslims.
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Nov 8, 2023 15:42
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regardless of the origins, a lot of jews in my community understand "from the river to the sea" as a call for dismantling the state of Israel. that's existentially frightening since so many of us live with the intergenerational trauma that we will be deported/genocided in the diaspora and require a "safe" place. i think a lot of folks discount how important it feels to have access to significant landmarks from the Torah as well since many of them were inaccessible to Jews for centuries. that said, i think arguing over rhetoric is hot garbage and the focus needs to be on ending the slaughter of people immediately. it's so contrary to the idea of pikuach nefesh that it is pretty soul destroying to see this violence associated with Judaism in any way. anyways I'm preaching to the choir and could ramble on for days about this. thanks goons psydude posted:... Every Jewish friend I have wants Israel as a place that will protect Jewish people, but as a secular state that guarantees free exercise. basically this
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Nov 8, 2023 16:30
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Zionists don't have a problem killing Jews either so looks like this whole clever plan isnt working out
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Nov 8, 2023 16:46
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Hamas has put out a statement, they claim that over the 12 days since the beginning of the ground combat, they have destroyed 136 vehicles of the IDF. They also just released more incredible footage just now. This is by far their most stunning footage they've released. it includes two tanks that are parked right next to each other literally touching each other getting blown up, and it seems like it caused a chain reaction because one of them might have blown the other one up. a shot of them wiping out Israelis holed up on a school building room with a TBG thermo rpg A triple diagonal kill where 3 guys knock out 3 tanks that literally had them surrounded from 2 sides. they had two cameramen filming the same shot where there was what looks like two vehicles, an APC and a Merkava, with an IDF soldier standing on top of them they shot the KONKURS missile at it, then captured the total Vaporization of the tanks and the IDF trooped from close up cam and far away cam. in all of those instances, except I think the Konkurs one, they were always between 100 feet away from their target. and almost always were safe enough afterwards to withdraw. Also it started with a shot of a building operating as a front base for the IDF, surrounded by dozens of tanks, fortified by sand, only for the building to get vaporized by heavy mortar artillery. and their tank concentration getting shelled by heavy mortars.
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Nov 8, 2023 18:10
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Hamas taking inspiration from Ukr MoD for vehicle claims
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Nov 8, 2023 18:14
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If there's one thing we learned from Russia's reaction to the first week of Urkaine's counteroffensive, disabled or even hit doesn't mean destroyed.
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Nov 8, 2023 18:16
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