Paladinus posted:

According to the IDF, they are now operating within Gaza City proper.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-says-it-is-open-gaza-fighting-pauses-aid-hostages-2023-11-07/

Either we will see a sharp increase in Israeli casualties very soon, or Hamas' urban warfare plan wasn't that great after all.

HonorableTB posted:

Israel is not going to nuke anyone. They have no need to. They're achieving the same thing with conventional means.

Hong XiuQuan posted:

Which makes it easy to believe that there is a Hamas command centre in or under every hospital, school, mosque and crate of bottled water.

mitztronic posted:

Maybe you’ve been ignoring them, but there are countless videos from the past few days proving that Hamas does this. I’ve seen videos of rocket launchers embedded in elementary schools and universities, videos of tunnels embedded underneath mosques and amusements parks, and many more - all sorts of wild stuff like hiding rocket launches with water cube ‘camouflage’ of sorts. Plenty of GoPro footage out there now that they’re operating around and in Gaza City. It’s pretty disgusting what Hamas is doing.

And yea, I understand that a militarily inferior force “”must”” strategically hide their assets in these locations, but can we please not pretend that they don’t do it?

mitztronic posted:

Maybe you’ve been ignoring them, but there are countless videos from the past few days proving that Hamas does this. I’ve seen videos of rocket launchers embedded in elementary schools and universities, videos of tunnels embedded underneath mosques and amusements parks, and many more - all sorts of wild stuff like hiding rocket launches with water cube ‘camouflage’ of sorts. Plenty of GoPro footage out there now that they’re operating around and in Gaza City. It’s pretty disgusting what Hamas is doing.

And yea, I understand that a militarily inferior force “”must”” strategically hide their assets in these locations, but can we please not pretend that they don’t do it?

Collapsing Farts posted:

Again, there is no need to defend Hamas because yeah, there's video of them warcriming all over the place. Those guys love to warcrime, a lot. Pretending they don't is just dumb, go to reddit or telegram and just watch the videos?

But also, again, it does not excuse Israels over the top targeting of civilians all over the place. Those guys love to warcrime too

Zzulu posted:

I mean you don't have to guess because Japan did this in WW2 and America destroyed 3 cities with aerial bombardment. Including the capital which they firebombed to ensure maximum destruction and loss of life and two cities of which they nuked, killing hundreds of thousands of civilians in total

mitztronic posted:

Maybe you’ve been ignoring them, but there are countless videos from the past few days proving that Hamas does this. I’ve seen videos of rocket launchers embedded in elementary schools and universities, videos of tunnels embedded underneath mosques and amusements parks, and many more - all sorts of wild stuff like hiding rocket launches with water cube ‘camouflage’ of sorts. Plenty of GoPro footage out there now that they’re operating around and in Gaza City. It’s pretty disgusting what Hamas is doing.

And yea, I understand that a militarily inferior force “”must”” strategically hide their assets in these locations, but can we please not pretend that they don’t do it?

DelilahFlowers posted:

Now do moving ambulances

Paladinus posted:

The one thing I saw publicised recently was a rocket launching site claimed to be in a youth centre near a mosque.

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/379831

Main Paineframe posted:

it doesn't sound like any of the videos you've seen show any Hamas command centers under hospitals, which is the exact claim you were trying to rebut

mitztronic posted:

I feel bad for breaking the rules including any of the videos, so here are a few I looked up (I had to stop because there's only so much I could take in a day.):

Amusement Park tunnels: https://twitter.com/imshin/status/1721963920464679247 (from IDF)

mitztronic posted:

I feel bad for breaking the rules including any of the videos, so here are a few I looked up (I had to stop because there's only so much I could take in a day.):

Amusement Park tunnels: https://twitter.com/imshin/status/1721963920464679247 (from IDF)

DelilahFlowers posted:

Now do moving ambulances

mitztronic posted:

I feel bad for breaking the rules including any of the videos, so here are a few I looked up (I had to stop because there's only so much I could take in a day.):

Amusement Park tunnels: https://twitter.com/imshin/status/1721963920464679247 (from IDF)

mitztronic posted:

57001 posted:

israel is wouldn't do it over this, anyway, with their own policy of amimut. too risky. by the definition of amimut, outside of some declassified docs from the vela incident they have never done atmospheric tests. they had access to data from french tests in the 60s, but that's pretty old and can't really tell us much about current capabilities, and israel never had access to two-stage test data since france cut off their data supply before 68.

but the more fun and debateable thing here is that maybe deterrence works (until it fails, to quote jon wolfsthal) but because there is so little data available about israel's forces and they don't acknowledge them, it like. works extra hard. we can make good guesses about where israel keeps their jerichos but ~*~officially~*~ speaking, they don't have any nukes in caves. so how screwed would your rear end feel if you wasted all your conventional means on taking out jericho silos or jerichos in caves that weren't actually carrying nuclear warheads. now you have nothing.



but all of this is moot in the context of gaza, imho, israel's nuclear posture is basically set up solely for retaliation against apocalyptic conventional, or as they would wish it, nuclear attacks from iran.

mitztronic posted:

I feel bad for breaking the rules including any of the videos, so here are a few I looked up (I had to stop because there's only so much I could take in a day.):

Amusement Park tunnels: https://twitter.com/imshin/status/1721963920464679247 (from IDF)

Tunnels at a university: https://www.reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/comments/17q5uyw/video_of_the_exposure_of_a_tunnel_shaft_and_its/ (yeah, reddit post, and a very biased subreddit, but it's video footage and not just a tweet)

Here's that tweet where the IDF claims the ambulance was being used by Hamas https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1720510816930157050 (again, I already said I dont trust what they say, but I do trust what I see in videos). I know we've already seen it, I'm just adding this since I mentioned it in my last post.

There's also a video (/claim) showing that the launch center (which I see repeatedly referred to as a "command center", I'm sure many people would disagree with that definition of "command center") was under the mosque itself. Will edit this when/if I find the combined video - I know it's somewhere, and I'm pretty sure I saw additional footage not included in that above link. There is so much carnage and gore to have to sift through to find these things, and it's demoralizing as gently caress. There's only so much I can take a day.

Those are the four claims I made. Elementary schools, universities, mosques, and amusement parks.

I didnt make any claims about hospitals (you'll note, as above, I was rebutting that they do use schools, mosques, etc), because I've only seen IDF statements saying they're using hospitals, or historical proof they've used hospitals, I havent seen any video yet of footage from hospitals proving it, from the current war. Again, I believe trusting anything that IDF (or Hamas) says at face value, is frankly dumb.

Historically, there is plenty of proof that Hamas has used hospitals in the past to hide weapons, command centers, etc. It's not that big a stretch to believe they're still doing it, but without proof, no, i dont believe the IDF.

---

I could just as easily find videos of mutilated Palestinian children killed by airstrikes, or Palestinians murdered by Hamas. There are also videos of IDF protecting Palestinians to evacuate down corridors that, as the claims go, Hamas was shooting people trying to leave. Both sides are commiting war crimes. War is loving disgusting, and hasn't really changed.

Zulily Zoetrope posted:

Have any of these claims ever been independently verified? The only things I've seen from a non-Hamas/IDF source are things like weapons being found at an abandoned UN school, Hamas operating in al-Shifa a decade ago, or a member of Islamic Jihad launching a rocket from a protected rooftop.

I'm going to assume that Hamas is not actually stashing arsenals and operations under UN-protected safe zones so long as no aid workers are claiming otherwise and the IDF can't produce anything better than footage of holes they claim to be terror tunnels.

mitztronic posted:

I feel bad for breaking the rules including any of the videos, so here are a few I looked up (I had to stop because there's only so much I could take in a day.):

mitztronic posted:

I feel bad for breaking the rules including any of the videos, so here are a few I looked up (I had to stop because there's only so much I could take in a day.):

...

There's also a video (/claim) showing that the launch center (which I see repeatedly referred to as a "command center", I'm sure many people would disagree with that definition of "command center") was under the mosque itself. Will edit this when/if I find the combined video - I know it's somewhere, and I'm pretty sure I saw additional footage not included in that above link. There is so much carnage and gore to have to sift through to find these things, and it's demoralizing as gently caress. There's only so much I can take a day.

Dubar posted:

No matter who is hiding in a hospital, you are still a horrible monster for bombing a hospital.

mitztronic posted:

Here's that tweet where the IDF claims the ambulance was being used by Hamas https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1720510816930157050 (again, I already said I dont trust what they say, but I do trust what I see in videos). I know we've already seen it, I'm just adding this since I mentioned it in my last post.

mitztronic posted:

Historically, there is plenty of proof that Hamas has used hospitals in the past to hide weapons, command centers, etc. It's not that big a stretch to believe they're still doing it, but without proof, no, i dont believe the IDF.

mitztronic posted:

There are also videos of IDF protecting Palestinians to evacuate down corridors that, as the claims go, Hamas was shooting people trying to leave. Both sides are commiting war crimes. War is loving disgusting, and hasn't really changed.

HonorableTB posted:

That's also a form of selection bias so be careful with how much stringency you put on an independent verifier definition. Keep in mind it's an active war zone where aid is not meaningfully being allowed in (which limits your independent verifiers to the aid workers currently under bombardment and attack) so you may need to be less strict about whose word you believe for verification purposes. Don't put so much weight on the words of a handful of aid workers if you also have a high volume of voices on the ground you can turn to as well (Gazan voices specifically)

mitztronic posted:

What type of evidence would be required to “prove” that Hamas is using civilian infrastructure? It sounds like there is no possible evidence, as anything against Hamas is going to come from the IDF.

Likewise, the same standard does not seem to apply to Hamas (in this thread). It’s weird. They’re both evil, but Hamas claims can be parroted here without much pushback. It’s difficult to navigate.

I’ve been consuming footage from both sides (both are obviously propaganda, so it’s very difficult to try to understand what we’re seeing), trying to better my understanding. Both sides are committing war crimes, Israel is killing more people, objectively. All the meanwhile we have posters saying I should be permabanned for being a sick gently caress. I don’t get it.

mitztronic posted:

What type of evidence would be required to “prove” that Hamas is using civilian infrastructure? It sounds like there is no possible evidence, as anything against Hamas is going to come from the IDF.

Likewise, the same standard does not seem to apply to Hamas (in this thread). It’s weird. They’re both evil, but Hamas claims can be parroted here without much pushback. It’s difficult to navigate.

I’ve been consuming footage from both sides (both are obviously propaganda, so it’s very difficult to try to understand what we’re seeing), trying to better my understanding. Both sides are committing war crimes, Israel is killing more people, objectively. All the meanwhile we have posters saying I should be permabanned for being a sick gently caress. I don’t get it.

TGLT posted:

I would love to see an actual video with proof that

mitztronic posted:

I’ve been consuming footage from both sides (both are obviously propaganda, so it’s very difficult to try to understand what we’re seeing),

mitztronic posted:

I would love this for, essentially, every single piece of information that has come out from both sides. We’ll never get it… maybe for some specific examples, but regardless of what’s posted, individuals that have locked in their side won’t believe what the other side says.

About Hamas and using civ infrastructure - I truly don’t understand how it’s difficult to accept - to the point of people claiming the opposite as fact. They have been doing this, and it’s been documented, for decades. There’s no reason to believe it’s any different now. Tactically, Hamas is the inferior force and strategically their doctrine must utilize civilian buildings for military use.

All this means is neither side is justified. War is full of these types of decisions. Am I surprised that Israel is bombing hospitals? No. Entire cities have been raised to the ground for thousands of years in war. Am I surprised that Hamas is installing and using rocket launches in elementary schools and mosques? Also no. Are they both shocking and awful? Duh?

This is the most information we’ve been able to get from any war, ever. I am not sure that it’s a good thing. And future wars will only have more and more of this type of real time documentation. What’s the best way to process it? Choose a side and only believe that? I still refuse to do that. Maybe I am not being nuanced enough.

selec posted: