|
Harold Fjord posted:I'm just finish ip my first game of Ark Nova on BGA. I went in 1v1 and totally blind. Focused on African animals and generally just getting the sense of how it all fits together while refusing to read a single rule. It's pretty fun! Seems very complex. Is this an mwe or a heavy? I would say MWE, I think any game with that little player interaction is always a MWE game.
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 00:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 16:17 |
|
|
It would be good to talk about some stand out recent heavier euros which do strike a good balance between accessibility, interaction and depth. I am attracted to heavier economic euros and three that I’ve enjoyed a lot recently (beyond Brass, which is definitely in my top 3) are Carnegie, Autobahn and Barrage. Carnegie in particular seems to turn off some but my wife and I have been playing it a lot and I have been really enjoying it 2-4p. I have a few whinges about it and I think there is probably going to be a better version of it someday but I really enjoy the mix of Puerto Rico style action mechanism, the “pick your own victory condition”, the map routing and the building your own action set through the offices. It plays fast after the first play, isn’t too hard to teach and people are focussed on both the board and their own player mat, it isn’t multiplayer solitaire. Great Western Trail is probably a similar ish game but I find Carnegie significantly tighter with more integrated mechanisms.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 08:03
|
|
|
I'm glad to hear you like Carnegie since Brass, Barrage and Autobahn are probably my top three euros and I'm constantly on the lookout for games that have a similar vibe or similar strengths - I just bought Carnegie hoping it would do that but haven't had a chance to play it yet. I really haven't come across many other games that hit for me as well as those three do. There's something about the combination of the economic/resource system combined with the route building/spatial control aspect that I just totally dig. The only other games that feel close for me are TM/GP/AoI and to a lesser extent, Steam and all its various incarnations.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 09:57
|
|
|
Did Lacrimosa come and go? Someone was talking about it in the context of 18xx shared incentives and I have it on my wishlist but haven't heard a peep about it since. Personally the theme means nothing to me and I have become so jaded that games that look too flourished with their graphics scare me away.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 15:16
|
|
|
FulsomFrank posted:Personally the theme means nothing to me and I have become so jaded that games that look too flourished with their graphics scare me away. I wish I could explain to normal people the pure joy I feel when the gameplay is amazing but the theme is incredibly dry and boring
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 15:25
|
|
|
I think Lacrimosa was favourably received by people who like themeless Euros.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 15:27
|
|
|
I want to post some more words about Hegemony because I think it's a pretty smart design and as far as I can see it kind of flew under the radar in this thread. First of all, let's explain how the game works. The basic gameplay is card-play: each turn you get a hand of 7 cards and get to play 5 of them, either for the action on the card itself, or in order to do a basic action (in which case the text on the card is ignored but playing the card is still required). Each side of the four (capitalists, state, workers, middle class) has a different set of basic actions, although there is some overlap, and some situations in which a basic action from one side can only be done through a card action for another side. You also have access to a list of free actions, although you can only select one per turn, and again, these are different for each side. Actions vary but for the two sides I have played so far, the Workers can assign unemployed to jobs, or buy goods, or start strikes or demonstrations, while their free actions are mostly about using goods they bought in order to increase their prosperity. For the capitalists, it's all about starting/closing companies, changing wages, buying goods and selling them to the foreign market. The interactions between sides have interesting consequences, and the game creates an aura where you do want to continually negotiate with all sides. Not happy about your wages as the Working Class? Threaten to strike. Not enough jobs? Threaten to demonstrate and hit potentially all other players with VP maluses. The job market, which is 90% of where the meat of the game is, creates situations where changes can have a big impact, and cascade the decisions of the players. Let's say that as the Working Class, I manage to get the Minimum wage up: this is a big boon to me, because I have more money to buy goods in order to increase my prosperity (which directly translates into points). The middle class might back such a proposal, because it is relatively neutral for them: they get more money from the capitalists/state, but have to pay the working class working in their shops more, too. The capitalists though will hate this, and their natural reaction will be to close companies because they are much less valuable now. But closing the companies means that more unemployed people will be present, especially if there aren't many state-run companies present, which means that the working can demonstrate, which means etc etc etc. There's cascades of interactions for any decisions. And these cascades of consequences can start from any sources. Does the player supporting the state provide free healthcare/education? If they do, they can get many points from it, but it also means that they will be running state companies at a loss, which means that they might go bankrupt, which can be incredibly bad. And sometimes, supporting things can have unclear consequences. Do you support lower taxes as the working class player so that you get more money in hand? Do you want immigration high or low? High means you can apply more pressure for potential demonstrations, but low means that it costs less to buy goods you need to score points. As the capitalists, do you raise wages in order to draw workers away from state/middle class companies? There's so many interconnected decisions and choices that feel like you are making choices within the theme rather than mechanically choosing an action only. But the game feels fragile and there are some weirdness there. It's the sort of game that I can feel would be pretty prone to creating group-centric metas. I've seen discussion where people never buy from the Capitalists at all, even if they end up paying twice as much. Also the State has less voluntary interaction with the job market aspect of the game, and also it does feel like the other sides have less control trying to prevent the state from gaining points. I really want to play the game more to see how it shakes out, because I have this inescapable feeling that something is off about the game, but I can't quite put my finger on it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 16:00
|
|
|
I recently bought Orléans and Orléans: Invasion on a whim because someone was getting rid of them. IIRC they have a pretty good rating on BGG, but would anyone here have any opinions with regards to learning the game? Pitfalls to avoid? Just don't bother? Also I recently got to play Fit to Print a bunch and it was a delight! I'm genuinely surprised at finding a simultaneous-action-with-time-limit boardgame that I actually enjoy in 2023.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 16:01
|
|
|
Tekopo posted:I want to post some more words about Hegemony because I think it's a pretty smart design and as far as I can see it kind of flew under the radar in this thread. First of all, let's explain how the game works. I forgot to say it before but thanks for the write-up, I really appreciate these more in-depth trip reports of games. Haven't played Hegemony but based on your description it might be interesting as long as it doesn't fall into the Root issue of people learning four totally different games simultaneously versus everyone playing the same game mechanically but with obviously varied and disparate interests. If the playtime isn't bad than it can be enjoyable learning in real time the potential knock-on effects of taking certain actions, especially with a fun, receptive group willing to eat poo poo from a bad choice without pouting and saying never again.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 16:27
|
|
|
Yeah, thanks for the write-up, Hegemony wasn't on my radar at all, but now it's firmly situated on my imaginary shelf of games that I play each weekend with my imaginary friends. It looks so cool 
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 16:37
|
|
|
Hempuli posted:I recently bought Orléans and Orléans: Invasion on a whim because someone was getting rid of them. IIRC they have a pretty good rating on BGG, but would anyone here have any opinions with regards to learning the game? Pitfalls to avoid? Just don't bother? Orleans Invasion is a really good co-op that pulls the Spirit Island trick of feeling impossible when you start but then ramping you up to overcome the challenge by the end. For competitive Orleans, the replacement Beneficial Deeds board from Trade and Intrigue is so much better I can't imagine playing without it. It's really not a difficult game to learn, maybe print out a reference for what all the buildings do for each player, and make it clear to everyone that you can't put a technology cog on a space that only takes a single worker.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 16:38
|
|
|
Hempuli posted:I recently bought Orléans and Orléans: Invasion on a whim because someone was getting rid of them. IIRC they have a pretty good rating on BGG, but would anyone here have any opinions with regards to learning the game? Pitfalls to avoid? Just don't bother? As much as possible make sure everyone knows what buildings are capable of doing since they're kind of a big deal and are one of the main ways that you develop your engine On a related note I played this game with 4p for the first time recently and I enjoyed it more than I expected since I'd only previously played it at 2-3 and found it a bit slow and boring
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 17:37
|
|
|
Hempuli posted:I recently bought Orléans and Orléans: Invasion on a whim because someone was getting rid of them. IIRC they have a pretty good rating on BGG, but would anyone here have any opinions with regards to learning the game? Pitfalls to avoid? Just don't bother? If you have an older DLP edition, be warned that the Bathhouse has received errata to make it "draw 2, play 1". Played as originally printed it's the best building in the game and will close to guarantee victory. Orleans Invasion is by a long way the worst expansion. If you want coop Orleans then either Orleans Stories or The Cathedral of Orleans do it better. Cathedral is especially good as it's a 40-minute family friendly version so it serves as a teach for the full game. And now you're making me want to try Orleans: The Plague even more than I already did.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 18:14
|
|
|
Is Age of Innovation worth a look if I already own Gaia Project?
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 18:16
|
|
|
I've only played Gaia Project a couple of times but I always found that there were improvements and annoyances with GP. I liked the equivalent to the cult track more, but the game felt more spread out and didn't have as tight a positioning game as Terra Mystica. Overall I think GP is different enough a game that the real question is this: Do you think you would enjoy TM with more replay value and improved favours/shared actions/cult tracks, where you draft your side? If the answer to that is yes, then get AoI. If you preferred GP over TM by a lot, then don't bother with AoI.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 18:25
|
|
|
Tekopo posted:I've only played Gaia Project a couple of times but I always found that there were improvements and annoyances with GP. I liked the equivalent to the cult track more, but the game felt more spread out and didn't have as tight a positioning game as Terra Mystica. Overall I think GP is different enough a game that the real question is this: Do you think you would enjoy TM with more replay value and improved favours/shared actions/cult tracks, where you draft your side? If the answer to that is yes, then get AoI. If you preferred GP over TM by a lot, then don't bother with AoI. hell yeah 
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 18:29
|
|
|
gently caress it, words about Age of Innovation. It's Terra Mystica. If you don't like Terra Mystica, avoid Age of Innovation. That's it, we are done, folks.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 19:14
|
|
|
Alright, more seriously. I'm not gonna explain all of the mechanisms of Terra Mystica, so you'll have to be familiar with that game in order to make the following words make any sense. So, what are the differences between Terra Mystica and Age of Innovation? Well, the first one, and more obviously apparent one, is that there aren't fixed races anymore, and instead you have to mix several different components in order to create the side that you will be playing. The components are: - The colour of tiles. Obviously this affects where you can place and what terrain you can terraform, but also has other effects, like for example Grey having slightly better starting economy, brown having easier access to the terraforming track upgrades, or your starting power distribution being different. - Your race. The race itself will have a different starting bonus and special effects. I played, for example, the moles, which have a dwarf-like digging special (and ability to build bridges on land), and the felines, that get bonuses for building cities (now called towns). - Your stronghold. Each have different incomes and special abilities. Some variations on the rules allow you to choose the stronghold when you build it, although this changes the game quite a lot. - Which end of turn power you get. Same as standard TM. In the two games I played, we did a snake draft (1234432112344321), and you could choose any of the above categories that you hadn't chosen already. We did this instead of bidding, even with experienced players. The other differences are favours: instead of fixed favours with fixed cult colours, you randomly distribute the favours among the colours. This is still balanced because the favours that bump you 1 or 2 spaces along the track now give you 2 or 1 book (respectively). Books are used for either doing new actions on the board, much like the ones that use power, and these are randomly decided at the start, or to buy Innovations. Innovations are a mixture of immediate scoring tiles, or new buildings (some of them which are rather spicy and allow you to create 2-tile towns). You need to spend 5 books, with some variation on what colour of book you need for the randomly distributed Innovations. You also need to spend 5 gold to get an Innovation if you haven't built your stronghold yet. Your second innovation costs 1 additional book, and the second costs 2 more (most of the times, some boards have discounts). You can also turn 1 book into 1 gold but lol, and might I add, lmao. The other notable difference is that the cult tracks have been modified slightly, with the lock being lower down the track rather than right at the top, but giving you access to additional resources each upkeep if you reach specific spaces. Overall it's pretty much the same cult track as TM. That's it, that's all the differences. The game otherwise plays exactly like TM. Overall though I feel AoI feels more open and it is pretty easy to build 3 cities or above through the course of the game. Overall it is a notable improvement if you are getting tired of TM.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 19:28
|
|
|
I am so out of the loop I didn't even know there was a second not-Terra Mystica out there that people of course say is better than Gaia Project... the game I picked up because people said it was better than TM!!! I wish I had time to sit down and play a lot of GP to get good at it enough to play competently against my wife because I really like the game and think there's some great stuff going on but man oh man is it not a feel good hit of the summer in our house. Maybe one day when the kids are old enough I can repeat the experience of introducing games that my family members don't give a poo poo about to them too.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 19:58
|
|
|
Poopy Palpy posted:For competitive Orleans, the replacement Beneficial Deeds board from Trade and Intrigue is so much better I can't imagine playing without it. It's really not a difficult game to learn, maybe print out a reference for what all the buildings do for each player, and make it clear to everyone that you can't put a technology cog on a space that only takes a single worker.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 20:04
|
|
|
FulsomFrank posted:I am so out of the loop I didn't even know there was a second not-Terra Mystica out there that people of course say is better than Gaia Project... the game I picked up because people said it was better than TM!!! GP is also getting an expansion next year IIRC. I would imagine it includes the modular faction stuff from AoI which is the biggest thing GP needs for balance reasons.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 20:10
|
|
|
Poopy Palpy posted:Orleans Invasion is a really good co-op that pulls the Spirit Island trick of feeling impossible when you start but then ramping you up to overcome the challenge by the end. For competitive Orleans, the replacement Beneficial Deeds board from Trade and Intrigue is so much better I can't imagine playing without it. It's really not a difficult game to learn, maybe print out a reference for what all the buildings do for each player, and make it clear to everyone that you can't put a technology cog on a space that only takes a single worker. RabidWeasel posted:As much as possible make sure everyone knows what buildings are capable of doing since they're kind of a big deal and are one of the main ways that you develop your engine Jedit posted:If you have an older DLP edition, be warned that the Bathhouse has received errata to make it "draw 2, play 1". Played as originally printed it's the best building in the game and will close to guarantee victory. Admiralty Flag posted:Late to the conversation. Haven't played Orleans Invasion so I can't speak to it, but I agree with the rest. Orleans is a really slick, enjoyable, light-mid weight Euro that doesn't wear out its welcome and is a ton of fun to play; the luck factor is rather small and mitigatable through a couple of means. Multiple paths to victory = multiple ways to play. #31 on BGG for a reason. Thanks! Shame to hear that Invasion might not be as well-liked, and that an expansion adds stuff that improves the game. Should I go for Trade & Intrigue, is the new board *that* important? Sokani posted:Is Age of Innovation worth a look if I already own Gaia Project? I've played AoI only once, but as a person who considered TM his favourite boardgame for years, the general pros/cons imo were: + The books are a nice addition that resembles the QIC from GP + The drafting and variable player boards are cool and help make the factions feel more even. I also liked the faction-specific bonuses I saw + AoI's added stuff (books, innovation tiles etc) don't feel like they overcomplicate the base systems and slot in quite neatly into the experience. The only exception for me might be the "neutral" buildings that you build from tech/innovation tiles and the purple sheds that you get from one of the tech tiles; they're not that difficult to understand but especially the sheds felt like an oddly elaborate design for just a singular tile. - AoI feels more homogenous in its design, as was stated before. The drafting of the faction mechanics means that there are no factions with wildly differing gameplay styles like the Darklings or, say, Dragonlords in Terra Mystica, or the Ivits in GP. Again, this helps ensure that the factions are more evenly balanced, I'd imagine, but the wackier factions have been a big draw for me (and even though the theming in TM/GP is paper-thin, I do feel that AoI is slightly more generic due to these changes + the change from cults into more sciencey stuff). - The updated art feels mostly nice, but I don't like how saturated the colours are. Oddly enough, the Swamp & Mountain terrain types had such similar shades of grey that when playing, we mistook one for the other multiple times; something that never happened in base TM. Also the Field terrain type looks like wooden floorplanks. Very minor quibbles though. - For someone used to Gaia Project's research tracks, the return to a more TM-esque science track setup might feel a bit of a letdown. Like in TM, AoI's tracks mostly provide the exact same benefits and their differences are in the round-specific bonuses that you get for having ascended far enough on a specific track. AoI adds some extra bonuses that differentiate the tracks a bit more, but those only appear towards the ends of each track (and you need a Town/Federation to reach those spaces at all). In a nutshell, IMO AoI is 100% worth checking out if you've played GP and enjoyed it, and even for TM fans it adds enough to be a new experience. I'm definitely considering buying it. Bottom Liner posted:GP is also getting an expansion next year IIRC. I would imagine it includes the modular faction stuff from AoI which is the biggest thing GP needs for balance reasons.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 20:42
|
|
|
Hempuli posted:Thanks! Shame to hear that Invasion might not be as well-liked, and that an expansion adds stuff that improves the game. Should I go for Trade & Intrigue, is the new board *that* important? https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1948232/brief-review-orleans-and-what-trade-and-intrigue-a
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 21:13
|
|
|
Bottom Liner posted:sounds like another Stonemaier At this point in my life I really try not to get on people for liking stuff that I don't like, but I'm certainly mystified by the love these games get. There are games out there with great production values that don't have these rules or game play issues. And the person leading the event said they love Stonemaier and it's their favorite publisher. It certainly takes all kinds, and I guess it's good practice for realizing that folks get very different sources of enjoyment out of games. While they might not be for me, I remind myself that that is ok.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 21:38
|
|
|
It’s just a sign of the growing hobby I think. Lowest common denominator design that’s good enough with attractive visuals and components will get a lot of love from the broader board game audience the same way popcorn flicks will in movies.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 21:59
|
|
|
Carillon posted:At this point in my life I really try not to get on people for liking stuff that I don't like, but I'm certainly mystified by the love these games get. There are games out there with great production values that don't have these rules or game play issues. And the person leading the event said they love Stonemaier and it's their favorite publisher. It certainly takes all kinds, and I guess it's good practice for realizing that folks get very different sources of enjoyment out of games. While they might not be for me, I remind myself that that is ok. Oh man, Stonemaier is awesome. Most of their games I find you can explain in one or two games, and there is enough depth they don't get boring after 3-5 plays. Scythe, Terraforming Mars, Wingspan has enough moving parts to keep me interested, and want to play again. I've even played Tapestry, and apart from the iconography, same rules apply above. Charterstone is fun as well, but that's more because of all the unlocking components you get. I'm not saying they are the greatest, best games, but I would go out of my way to play them.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 22:05
|
|
|
I appreciate you lumping TfM in with SM games.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 22:13
|
|
|
Libertalia looks like a lot of fun to me. Is that a Stonemaier outlier? I think I've only played Scythe and Wingspan and Scythe was unmemorable and I didn't like Wingspan much at all.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 22:55
|
|
|
Libertalia was not originally a Stonemeier game. They picked up the rights to it and reprinted it with a few new rules. Generally speaking I like what was added to the game.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 22:57
|
|
|
DropTheAnvil posted:Oh man, Stonemaier is awesome. Most of their games I find you can explain in one or two games, and there is enough depth they don't get boring after 3-5 plays. Scythe, Terraforming Mars, Wingspan has enough moving parts to keep me interested, and want to play again. I've even played Tapestry, and apart from the iconography, same rules apply above. Charterstone is fun as well, but that's more because of all the unlocking components you get. But why not play the greatest best games?
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 23:03
|
|
|
Blamestorm posted:But why not play the greatest best games? That would obviously be wonderful but unlike books, movies, and many video games, with most board games you have to convince others play them with you, and not everyone is as hardcore as thread denizens. Many want less direct competition, softer corners, lighter themes, bitty tactility, and modern attractive productions. You know, they want Marvel, not Herzog. No judgement, but we want gaming partners. So, if a beat-up copy of Mayfair's Tigris and Euphrates is newbie repellent, then Wingspan and its ilk are the pot of honey to try and lure them into the hobby. If they remain, they will hopefully eventually come around to the Church of Knizia.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 23:24
|
|
|
Wingspan does seem to have a broad appeal. It came up on a recent Giant Bombcast and several of them bought it. I was listening and thinking "no, get a fun game instead!" but they seem to like it so good for them.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 23:33
|
|
|
it's a very low-focus game that allows for a lot of simultaneous conversation and lots of cards with pretty bird paintings. perfect for mothers who are very tolerant when you pull out john company after
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 23:43
|
|
|
speaking as a wingspan champion: it’s fine. I wouldn’t fly far to play it but its theme and art has built it a light strategy niche among gamers that aren’t too deep in the reeds. good excuse to chat and chirp.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2023 23:47
|
|
|
Bottom Liner posted:I appreciate you lumping TfM in with SM games. If TfM was done by Stonemaier it would have good production values.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2023 00:04
|
|
|
100s of individually bagged metal cubes still gets me  
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2023 00:07
|
|
|
Wingspan is an absolutely fine game and I put in that category of “low stakes Sunday games” that I also lump stuff like Caverna in. Sometimes you just want to pull levers without worrying about your game plan completely collapsing. And sometimes you want to starve your wife’s family until their pitiful farm collapses to the ground.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2023 00:10
|
|
|
I honestly found Wingspan a bit too complicated for what it was. I had hoped it'd work well as a "play with Mum" game but after one game I could tell she would have bounced right off it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2023 00:12
|
|
|
Magnetic North posted:That would obviously be wonderful but unlike books, movies, and many video games, with most board games you have to convince others play them with you, and not everyone is as hardcore as thread denizens. Many want less direct competition, softer corners, lighter themes, bitty tactility, and modern attractive productions. You know, they want Marvel, not Herzog. No judgement, but we want gaming partners. So, if a beat-up copy of Mayfair's Tigris and Euphrates is newbie repellent, then Wingspan and its ilk are the pot of honey to try and lure them into the hobby. If they remain, they will hopefully eventually come around to the Church of Knizia. I guess I feel that the greatest best games are the ones that are ideal for your group’s preferences as to what kind of experience they want, so if that’s Wingspan for your group more power to you. I just feel there are other games out there like wingspan with all those things you mention (soft corners, modern productions etc) that are just flat out more interesting/fun/faster/accessible. It’s not Wingspan vs Barrage, it’s vs (for my group) Heat/Flamme rouge, quest for el dorado, My City, Azul, Ra, it’s a wonderful world etc.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2023 00:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 16:17 |
|
|
Doctor Spaceman posted:I honestly found Wingspan a bit too complicated for what it was. I had hoped it'd work well as a "play with Mum" game but after one game I could tell she would have bounced right off it. Yeah this. There’s too much rules overhead considering how little strategy there is. Somehow it feels like Azul or Patchwork are infinitely more interesting as a puzzle and are irreducible in their rules complexity.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2023 01:12
|
|