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Assuming Israel takes enough territory, shouldn't we expect to see completely solid proof of these tunnels in areas they've claimed for a while (hospitals, schools, camps)? Sounds like all we've gotten so far is...nothing. Is the IDF thinking about this or just assuming that if nothing is produced no one will ask?
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Nov 8, 2023 23:43
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Tuna-Fish posted:The laws of war are actually pretty clear that you are specifically allowed to do that. The basic idea is that targeting civilians on purpose is not allowed, but collateral damage, or civilians killed alongside legitimate military targets you strike, are fine. The thinking is that in those cases, the death of the civilians is the fault of the military personnel who chose to place themselves in the vicinity, not the people doing the shooting, and also to discourage taking human shields. That's completely and totally wrong. Under international law, the attacker possesses the responsibility of doing all they reasonably can to minimize civilian casualties and collateral damage. For example, Geneva Conventions Protocol I Article 57: quote:Article 57 - Precautions in attack As you can see, even when the target is a purely military objective, the attacker is still obligated to do what they reasonably can to reduce the risk to civilians. Collateral damage isn't totally banned, but they have to intentionally act to minimize it as much as is reasonably possible. And yes, that can include choosing a less destructive method of attack, or even intentionally not carrying out a strike where the military gain is small and the risk to civilians is large.
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Nov 8, 2023 23:52
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punishedkissinger posted:So weird how Hamas was using entirely encrypted means of communicating before 10/7 but now they just regularly have phone convos about how evil and bad they are BTW, I was listening to a talk by CSIS which is a U.S. think tank to get a sense of how these people were talking about the war. This was soon after the hospital bombing that was highly contested and protests were generating a lot of energy. One of the panelists was a former (probably still current) CIA analyst who mentioned the phone call for that one, and she dismissed it as not really credible. She didn't say why, of course, but I imagine that privately these intelligence people know what the deal is. They rarely if ever say "yes" or "no," I noticed. It's all probabilities and degrees, and that one was low probability. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Nov 9, 2023 |
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Nov 9, 2023 00:14
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Israel really doubling down on the genocide thing eh? DO NO CLICK IF YOU VALUE ANY PART OF YOUR SOUL. ik edit: yeah no thanks, take your liveleaks war porn poo poo elsewhere (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) Somebody fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Nov 9, 2023 |
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Nov 9, 2023 00:16
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Stanley Pain posted:Israel really doubling down on the genocide thing eh? One of the videos is of a girl pulled from the rubble alive and she asks "are you taking me to the cemetery?" and the translation isn't there but one of the rescuers says "No my dearest - you are alive and as beautiful as the moon." I'm not a guy who cries often but that one gets me every time. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Nov 9, 2023 |
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Nov 9, 2023 00:20
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e: posted in the wrong thread
Rubellavator fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Nov 9, 2023 |
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Nov 9, 2023 00:28
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:This really needs to be posted here: So I've seen this floating around and also this reply https://twitter.com/adamjohnsonCHI/status/1722344313844109347?t=D-lIlSz6Z7Lfbnm1dEkqLg&s=19 And as a former signals guy I gotta say: yes that's how it'd work. Now that Israel is just bombing everything you can't really maintain the same comint discipline you could before. That said this sounds like some posthoc make believe because if Israel is already bombing ambulances why do you think they'll be safe and if they had this when they bombed the ambulance why did they wait to release it
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Nov 9, 2023 00:31
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pro starcraft loser posted:Assuming Israel takes enough territory, shouldn't we expect to see completely solid proof of these tunnels in areas they've claimed for a while (hospitals, schools, camps)? Sounds like all we've gotten so far is...nothing. I mean if they showed you the proof, would you even believe it? It's not like they don't fabricate enough poo poo as it is.
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Nov 9, 2023 00:54
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the claims of tunnels have been well documented by 3rd parties since before October 7. I don't see it as something that needs proof. The IDF shouldn't be bombing Gaza or sending troops into it to begin with. Everything they are doing is morally wrong.
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Nov 9, 2023 01:00
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Groovelord Neato posted:One of the videos is of a girl pulled from the rubble alive and she asks "are you taking me to the cemetery?" and the translation isn't there but one of the rescuers says "No my dearest - you are alive and as beautiful as the moon." I'm not a guy who cries often but that one gets me every time. Truth be told I've had to heavily limit my social media browsing because of this and at the same time the least I can do is witness what is happening, and try to push politicians and community to act.
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Nov 9, 2023 01:11
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A facet that doesn't get touched upon often is also the fact that, from my limited understanding, (feel free to correct me on this) surface bombs, even 'bunker busters'....are actually pretty bad at destroying underground infrastructure, especially fortified (as the Hamas tunnels appear to be) structures. There's a lot of issues with getting the blast energy to disperse down into the earth instead of....all the other directions that are much more willing to accept it. There's a reason explosions tend to not cause perfectly spherical damage. Even the mythical bunker busters are pretty poo poo at their jobs, as was discussed extensively from 2004-2006 when Bush flirted with research on how effective nuclear bunker busters would be. Any bomb explosion capable of traveling hundred/hundreds of feet underground is also going to end up being catastrophically devastating on the surface. So how deep are Hamas tunnels? Well, As Reuters reported, Israel themselves seem to be aware of this: quote:Israeli security sources say Israel's heavy aerial bombardments have caused little damage to the tunnel infrastructure with Hamas naval commandos able to launch a seaborne attack targeting coastal communities near Gaza this week. So what does bombing a building-any building-do against this? Iunno, I guess you might fill a single entrance with rubble for a day? So why does Israel do it? Because the alternative, more effective approach involves sending soldiers into Gaza, into the tunnels. Something they have basically no experience doing (and continue to have next to no experience doing, in favor of safe [for them] bombs), and would end up with dead IDF soldiers, which Israel is typically unwilling to accept; the deal is that you vote Netanyahu in, Israelis don't die. Bombs are politically safe to use, flashy, devastating, exciting, terrifying, and does basically nothing to Hamas. Prior to the invasion they boasted of killing 13 "Hamas Officials", and from what I could gather the majority of them were bureaucrats living above-ground, sleeping in their homes. All this is to say, even if Hamas was deliberately using hospitals to hide tunnels, even if an entire command center is underneath Al-Shifa, even if every international war crimes monitoring agency said "yeah this is cool", even if every civillian was evacuated from the hospital beforehand...It would still be senseless and pointless. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Nov 9, 2023 |
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Nov 9, 2023 02:11
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IDK what was posted hereStanley Pain posted:Israel really doubling down on the genocide thing eh? before the IK edit, but this: Groovelord Neato posted:One of the videos is of a girl pulled from the rubble alive and she asks "are you taking me to the cemetery?" and the translation isn't there but one of the rescuers says "No my dearest - you are alive and as beautiful as the moon." I'm not a guy who cries often but that one gets me every time. what rule does this break other than the victim being a girl pulled from rubble? People are continuously challenged to provide sources and post proof of their claims but a lot of poo poo you just straight up aren't allowed to post without being accused of posting liveleak war porn freak poo poo and if things are edited out by IKs but we have no idea WHAT was edited out (something more descriptive than 'liveleak war porn poo poo' would be great), then how can someone reliably back up their claims with source material? At the least we need to know what content was in links that were edited out because right now it is ambiguous. Is there any way at all we can get clarification on what sources can and cannot be posted? Obviously, no gore. No death, no injuries, no obvious awful poo poo like that. That's beyond dispute and should be punished heavily. However, there is no way for people coming in late to the thread to tell (beyond these basic rules everyone should be okay with because wtf if you want to see gore??), and if we're being told to post sources for claims then we should have a better idea of what we can and cannot post within the limits of "no death, no goreposting", etc. It would help the thread substantially. Tldr: IKs please put something more descriptive in place of the links you edit out so that there's no confusion between deathposting and a girl being rescued from rubble Edit: I'm also of the opinion that if anyone is to post anything that would fall under this kind of umbrella to think twice before posting it and think whether or not it really adds to the conversation. Does a little girl being pulled from rubble meaningfully advance the conversation or is it just ammunition for your arguments? Do we really NEED to see a girl being pulled from rubble to understand the IDF attacked that location? Anyways, that's all Edit 2: Stanley Pain posted:There were some dead bodies further down in the Twitter thread I posted. I thought most of them weren't inline posted, but some were.  for the response. I would recommend screenshotting such tweets in the future to avoid being dinged by bodies later down the thread. I speak from experience having come off a 30er for that reason lol. I learned my lesson and now post tweet screenshots which can't be retroactive rule breaks hours later
HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Nov 9, 2023 |
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Nov 9, 2023 02:27
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HonorableTB posted:IDK what was posted here There were some dead bodies further down in the Twitter thread I posted. I thought most of them weren't inline posted, but some were.
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Nov 9, 2023 02:31
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I said come in! posted:the claims of tunnels have been well documented by 3rd parties since before October 7. I don't see it as something that needs proof. The IDF shouldn't be bombing Gaza or sending troops into it to begin with. Everything they are doing is morally wrong. If you're going to blow up a building you better have actual, good evidence that the building was used for whatever you're alleging it was used for.
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Nov 9, 2023 02:32
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HonorableTB posted:IDK what was posted here It was a Twitter thread containing maybe forty embedded videos. The first one was an embedded close-up shot of a kid who'd had half their face very badly burned. The second was a video of a bunch of completely naked people being brutally beaten. The third one was just a video of people carrying around the bodies of dead kids. And so on. It wasn't used to support any kind of argument or claims, it's just some random loving podcaster who apparently decided to spend his Wednesday collecting every horrible, bloody, or gory video he could find and compile it into one handy tweet thread for everyone's atrocity porn needs. I wasn't kidding at all when I called it "liveleaks war porn poo poo".
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Nov 9, 2023 02:58
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Main Paineframe posted:It was a Twitter thread containing maybe forty embedded videos. The first one was an embedded close-up shot of a kid who'd had half their face very badly burned. The second was a video of a bunch of completely naked people being brutally beaten. The third one was just a video of people carrying around the bodies of dead kids. And so on. It wasn't used to support any kind of argument or claims, it's just some random loving podcaster who apparently decided to spend his Wednesday collecting every horrible, bloody, or gory video he could find and compile it into one handy tweet thread for everyone's atrocity porn needs. I wasn't kidding at all when I called it "liveleaks war porn poo poo".  Good shoot, paineframe
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Nov 9, 2023 03:13
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HootTheOwl posted:That said this sounds like some posthoc make believe because if Israel is already bombing ambulances why do you think they'll be safe and if they had this when they bombed the ambulance why did they wait to release it And why would Hamas use abulances when the tunnels seem like they're working perfectly?
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Nov 9, 2023 04:11
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Neurolimal posted:A facet that doesn't get touched upon often is also the fact that, from my limited understanding, (feel free to correct me on this) surface bombs, even 'bunker busters'....are actually pretty bad at destroying underground infrastructure, especially fortified (as the Hamas tunnels appear to be) structures. There's a lot of issues with getting the blast energy to disperse down into the earth instead of....all the other directions that are much more willing to accept it. There's a reason explosions tend to not cause perfectly spherical damage. A bunker buster works by not exploding. The bomb is so heavy it gets stuck in the ground and then explodes allowing for as much force as possible to be applied directly to the ground, there's actually some interesting physics here about their effectiveness against sand vs dirt because sand is so much looser that the blastwaves go further like they would in a liquid. Imo bunker buster aren't good vs tunnels because a tunnel is long. Let's say you make 300 feet of tunnel unusable, ok they'll dig up and walk s few feet and get back into the tunnel.
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Nov 9, 2023 04:28
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Did you know the United States developed a nuclear bunker buster? Technically they're called earth penetrating weapons but they are designed to deliver a nuclear warhead into the ground of a hardened target to explode. You might wonder why they would bother because nuke is a big boom, yeah? Why would they need to worry about bunkers if you're nuking the area? The answer is because concrete and dozens and dozens of meters of earth are an extremely good protective shield and if you're in a sufficiently hardened installation like Raven Rock or Cheyenne Mountain or [insert nuclear C2 center here] then the only thing that will be able to take you out is a bunker busting nuke that explodes deep enough to minimize the wasted energy and force of the detonation itself. This would technically be called a groundburst. The point of this post is that bunker busters come in a wide variety of shapes and forms and Israel has one that doesn't have any explosives but instead contains a load of white phosphorus that floods the tunnel instead and I'm kind of shocked they haven't used it against Hamas tunnels in Gaza yet. It's not like they're shy about using WP in Gaza, they did it in 2008 and 2009. I guess my overall point is that the "threat" of these tunnels to the IDF is minimal at best. They have the ability to destroy them in a ton of different ways, yet they don't despite claiming to know where they are (by publishing maps of such). The only conclusion I, and reasonable observers, can draw from this is that the tunnels in whatever form are more useful to the IDF as a boogeyman to help push their narratives rather than a real threat
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Nov 9, 2023 05:02
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Another good article taking an angle not commonly direct reported from the New Yorker: Inside the Israeli Crackdown on Speech Since the October 7th attack, Palestinians and peace activists in Israel have increasingly been targeted by employers, universities, government authorities, and right-wing mobs. quote:A week after the October 7th Hamas attack in the south of Israel, Israel Frey, a thirty-six-year-old Haredi journalist who focusses on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, had just returned to his apartment on the outskirts of Bnei Brak, a predominantly ultra-Orthodox town east of Tel Aviv, when he began to hear noise outside. It was after 10 p.m., a few hours past the end of Shabbat. Someone—he doesn’t remember who—messaged him to say that his address was circulating online, along with calls to join La Familia, a far-right group that started as a fan club for Jerusalem’s largest premier-league soccer team, in an attack on Frey’s home. When Frey tried to check if there was anyone outside his apartment door, he discovered that someone had blocked the viewfinder. The sounds in the street were getting louder. He could hear people shouting “traitor.” They seemed to be hurling firecrackers at the building. He rushed his wife and two children, aged eight and thirteen, out of the living room, which has a large window, and frantically texted friends: “People are attacking my house. Please come and do something.” It goes on to discuss the broader pattern, the politician behind it, and several additional cases with direct interviews of those being targeted. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 07:21 on Nov 9, 2023 |
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Nov 9, 2023 07:18
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Discendo Vox posted:Another good article taking an angle not commonly direct reported from the New Yorker: Excellent article. I'm not surprised to see Itamar Ben-Gvir show up. His presence as Minister of National Security is a good example of how right wing the current Israeli government is. For folks who aren't familiar, his Wikipedia page is worth a skim: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir He's essentially a fascist.
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Nov 9, 2023 08:03
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HonorableTB posted:Did you know the United States developed a nuclear bunker buster? Technically they're called earth penetrating weapons but they are designed to deliver a nuclear warhead into the ground of a hardened target to explode. You might wonder why they would bother because nuke is a big boom, yeah? Why would they need to worry about bunkers if you're nuking the area? I'd say it's pretty obvious they have no idea where the tunnels are accurately enough to deliver payloads directly into them. They're just dumb firing high explosives into the ground and hoping something shakes loose. The tunnels are literally an existential threat to any attempt to occupy Gaza, there is no way they could hold the place with the tunnel system intact, as we are seeing currently.
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Nov 9, 2023 08:52
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HootTheOwl posted:So I've seen this floating around and also this reply Maybe it's possible they're picking up convenient unencrypted comms like this with Hamas operatives just coming out and saying "Oh yes I like travelling in ambulances", "Which one will you take this time?", "I dunno man, I can take all of them. Hope Israel doesn't send a missile on the one I pick lol, that'd serve me right for my warcrimes". It's possible but stretches belief already. It'd be much, much easier to believe this kind of thing if Israel doesn't have a long history of obviously faking audio or presenting patently false audio as fact. See: Mavi Marmara (Israel murders 9; releases this audio intercept suggesting someone with a peculiarly Israeli accent trying to imitate an American accent saying "Go back to Auschwitz" and "Don't forget 9/11?") - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSw3pjfBXS4 - there's a two or three minute long clip with actual responses from the ship. The generous interpretation here is someone was radioing from a nearby Israeli boat or the shore but there's absolutely no chance the Israeli armed forces thought this was real. See: The Second Nakba - audio released concerning missile debris from Al-Ahli. The Arabic speakers are obviously not native levantine speakers. The tone throughout makes no sense and the script is execrable https://x.com/leslibless/status/1714546040492151151?s=20 See: The Second Nakba - audio released after Israel bombs bunch of hospitals of two Hamas operatives talking about where all the bases are. Guess where they're saying all the bases are? Oh yes, under hospitals. The accents are also not right here. Nor is the conversation flow. People just don't talk like this. https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1717954369914614091?s=20 nb: that twitter account above is some right-wing bot but the video is authentic. Couldn't find a high-quality Tw source posting it quickly because of all the noise around the al-Ahli massacre.
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Nov 9, 2023 11:26
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https://x.com/JalalAK_jojo/status/1722376328760947143?s=20 Looks like Israel is enforcing the controversial new law criminalizing the consumption of 'terrorist materials' i.e. news from Hamas or similar sources.
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Nov 9, 2023 14:01
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https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1722295168533975113 I’m skeptical that this will change much, but we’ll see.
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Nov 9, 2023 14:42
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Silver2195 posted:https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1722295168533975113 they're been doing several things on this list for more than a decade
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Nov 9, 2023 14:47
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Marenghi posted:https://x.com/JalalAK_jojo/status/1722376328760947143?s=20 If I read the law correctly, it somehow aims to distinguish between consumption for the purpose of being informed and consumption for the purpose of support. So Israeli media obviously can quote Hamas when they say they want to destroy Israel or whatever to show how bad they are, but there is always a possibility of a thoughtcrime occurring when you read the words 'death to Israel', I guess.
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Nov 9, 2023 14:49
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punishedkissinger posted:they're been doing several things on this list for more than a decade Yeah what the gently caress the blockade has been going on for almost twenty years now. And I can't imagine Israel not directly reoccupying Gaza after this. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Nov 9, 2023 |
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Nov 9, 2023 14:51
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Silver2195 posted:https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1722295168533975113 I’m sure Blinken is also totally going to enforce the red line when Israel inevitably crosses it, right?
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Nov 9, 2023 14:57
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Paladinus posted:If I read the law correctly, it somehow aims to distinguish between consumption for the purpose of being informed and consumption for the purpose of support. So Israeli media obviously can quote Hamas when they say they want to destroy Israel or whatever to show how bad they are, but there is always a possibility of a thoughtcrime occurring when you read the words 'death to Israel', I guess. It's one of those laws that exists in the totally not apartheid state that seems neutral but is obviously only going to be enforced (or with perhaps very few exceptions) for the ethnic minority that is totally free and equal. So, for example, I highly doubt anybody's going to be going to prison for seeing a video praising Meir Kahane or any number of Jewish terrorists. Scroll past an autoplay of a PIJ video blowing up a Merkava? Watch a clip of Ghassan Kanafani? Read a Wikipedia article about PFLP? AND you're a Palestinian citizen of Israel? Time for gloves off. While I'm here, this thread on Saleh Al-Jafarawi (subject to just the most obscene racist memeing, including by official Israel channels) is great. It explains the lies behind the repeatedly shared viral meme about him and also contextualises him as a content creator - ie the guy is just a TikToker in a warzone: https://twitter.com/NordsSims/status/1720941514023456905
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Nov 9, 2023 15:02
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BUUNNI posted:I’m sure Blinken is also totally going to enforce the red line when Israel inevitably crosses it, right? They already said they're not setting red lines for israel so this all amounts to nothing either way
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Nov 9, 2023 15:13
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Hong XiuQuan posted:It's one of those laws that exists in the totally not apartheid state that seems neutral but is obviously only going to be enforced (or with perhaps very few exceptions) for the ethnic minority that is totally free and equal. So, for example, I highly doubt anybody's going to be going to prison for seeing a video praising Meir Kahane or any number of Jewish terrorists. Scroll past an autoplay of a PIJ video blowing up a Merkava? Watch a clip of Ghassan Kanafani? Read a Wikipedia article about PFLP? AND you're a Palestinian citizen of Israel? Time for gloves off. It just seems like Zionists are white supremacists https://twitter.com/bin_account2/status/1721544708705403315
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Nov 9, 2023 15:13
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BUUNNI posted:It just seems like Zionists are white supremacists Certainly the extreme wing of Zionism shares a lot in common with white supremacy and has been making big inroads in Israel (the last six or so governments of Israel are perfect evidence of this trend).
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Nov 9, 2023 15:22
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Silver2195 posted:https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1722295168533975113 The tweet takes him out of context a fair bit, I think. In his actual comments (and in many of the full articles covering them), it's pretty clear that he's talking about an idealistic long-term vision, not immediate demands for what things are going to look like right after Israel's occupation. He openly admits later in the same press conference that there will be a "transition period" in which Israel is in full control of Gaza before handing it off to some peaceful Palestinian faction, and he doesn't set any time limits on the length of that period. He also seems to be conditioning the return of Gaza to Palestinian control on an end to Palestinian terrorism in Gaza, so it'll be easy for Israel to drag out that occupation period by saying there's still violence that needs to be stomped out. Here's an actual transcript, and I'll quote the parts that are relevant to Gaza: https://www.state.gov/secretary-antony-j-blinken-at-a-press-availability-41/ quote:The G7 ministers reaffirmed our staunch support for Israel’s right and obligation to defend itself and seek to ensure the attacks of October 7th can never happen again, in accordance with international humanitarian law. quote:QUESTION: Good evening, Mr. Secretary. Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu said that his government would maintain security control of Gaza for, quote, “an indefinite period,” end quote. How do you reconcile those comments to previous statements by both the U.S. and Israeli governments opposing a reoccupation of Gaza? And then you address this a bit, but other G7 members have expressed support for a full ceasefire in the Israel-Hamas war, while the U.S. continues to support just these humanitarian pauses. And I’m just wondering: Did you convince the other members of the U.S. position, or is this joint statement language just the sort of minimal consensus area? Thank you. So there's two main tracks here. In the long run, he reaffirms the US commitment to an eventual two-state solution where a peaceful PA controls both the West Bank and Gaza and lives in total peace and harmony with Israel. In the short run, though, it calls for the complete destruction of Hamas, an end to Palestinian terrorism, a full reaffirmation of Israel's right to exist, and an endorsement of whatever's needed to establish Israeli security and comfort. Things like lifting the blockade and not further displacing Palestinians will come after those basic short-term requirements are met.
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Nov 9, 2023 15:40
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People that live in Gaza and still have access to Twitter, are reporting that Israeli soldiers and snipers are intentionally targeting civilians and killing them. The one tweet I would like to share unfortunately has video / pictures of gore and dead people.Main Paineframe posted:https://www.state.gov/secretary-antony-j-blinken-at-a-press-availability-41/ Blinken's plan is complete horseshit. So Israel, who created the conditions for all of this in the first place, on purpose, gets all of the power still over Palestinians, and gets to implement a puppet government that will be pro-Israeli and leave the Palestinians likely worst off than they are even now. Israel has committed horrific war crimes, and carried out ruthless genocide against Palestinians for decades, they don't get a say in this, and letting them control Gaza in any capacity is completely unacceptable. I said come in! fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Nov 9, 2023 |
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Nov 9, 2023 15:42
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Main Paineframe posted:The tweet takes him out of context a fair bit, I think. In his actual comments (and in many of the full articles covering them), it's pretty clear that he's talking about an idealistic long-term vision, not immediate demands for what things are going to look like right after Israel's occupation. He openly admits later in the same press conference that there will be a "transition period" in which Israel is in full control of Gaza before handing it off to some peaceful Palestinian faction, and he doesn't set any time limits on the length of that period. He also seems to be conditioning the return of Gaza to Palestinian control on an end to Palestinian terrorism in Gaza, so it'll be easy for Israel to drag out that occupation period by saying there's still violence that needs to be stomped out. Thanks. I should have read the context more before posting the tweet; sorry.
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Nov 9, 2023 15:55
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I said come in! posted:Blinken's plan is complete horseshit. So Israel, who created the conditions for all of this in the first place, on purpose, gets all of the power still over Palestinians, and gets to implement a puppet government that will be pro-Israeli and leave the Palestinians likely worst off than they are even now. Israel has committed horrific war crimes, and carried out ruthless genocide against Palestinians for decades, they don't get a say in this, and letting them control Gaza in any capacity is completely unacceptable. That's par for the course, unfortunately. The US position since the 90s has been a two-state solution where a completely peaceful PA with zero Hamas involvement offers Israel any and all "security assurances" Israel feels it needs, in return for being eventually allowed a measure of nominal independence. That's why the Camp David talks failed, for instance. Israeli and American negotiators like to talk about how much Palestinian land they'd generously offered to allow the Palestinians to keep, but they also demanded a completely demilitarized Palestine, the right to send troops into Palestinian territory whenever they judged it necessary, several IDF radar stations on Palestinian soil, a permanent IDF presence at the Palestine-Jordan border, Israeli inspectors and observers at all Palestinian border crossings, full control over Palestinian airspace, Israeli veto power over Palestinian foreign policy, Israeli control over West Bank water resources, and more. That list of demands hasn't changed very much in the 23 years since then, and the general line of thinking has remained the same. Of course, no consideration is given to Palestinian security against Israeli aggression. With a wishlist like that it's no wonder that the US and Israel refuse to even allow Hamas at the negotiating table. Even Abbas would struggle to accept those conditions, but there's no way Hamas would, and Hamas fully intends to use violence as a bargaining chip to negotiate Israel down to lesser demands.
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Nov 9, 2023 16:12
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BUUNNI posted:It just seems like Zionists are white supremacists Why are you posting a lovely racist tweet from a 6 month old account with 51 followers?
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Nov 9, 2023 16:19
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HonorableTB posted:Ironically the Sartres quote is applicable to the Israeli government's use of language.
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Nov 9, 2023 16:29
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It’s funny how infringements of sovereignty under the guise of “security guarantees” are the new hotness in terms of casus belli. Whether in Ukraine or Gaza, “you must do what I say or I’ll just feel so darn unsafe I’ll have no choice but to bomb you” is some bullshit, and a lot of it traces back to the pre-emptive strike rhetoric of the post-9/11 period.
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Nov 9, 2023 16:42
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