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bull3964 posted:Too bad he now is a planet named after him!
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Nov 8, 2023 23:59
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It's a planet made of him so that's fine.
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Nov 9, 2023 00:04
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Maybe Neelix will be better once Kes is dead and he can't be constantly jealous of her all the loving time.
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Nov 9, 2023 00:38
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Atlas Hugged posted:Maybe Neelix will be better once Kes is dead and he can't be constantly jealous of her all the loving time. Actually he is (imo)! His scenes as Naomi Wildman’s quasi-uncle can get annoying, but in general he’s way better in the last few seasons.
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Nov 9, 2023 00:55
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Both Kes and Neelix are better when they aren't in the same (sub)plot; but due to how they entered the show half of their plots logically involve both of them. Once Kes leaves Neelix becomes way more... Tolerable. Their initial vision for him was probably a more outlaw/shady local with a heart of gold Han-Solo type but that just never really worked.
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Nov 9, 2023 01:21
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The best two Neelix moments are Tuvok murdering Holo-Neelix and Neelix learning that his entire spiritual worldview is a sham. Distant third to the episode with the war criminal, since there's actually some decent character development there.
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Nov 9, 2023 05:07
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Aces High posted:So is the Valiant episode of DS9 just a personal takedown of Wesley? A sort of "this is what happens when you let the wünderkinder in positions of power before giving them actual experience" kinda thing? It's a preemptive parody of the 2009 movie. Sash! posted:I just pretend that there never was a Nick Locarno. He was always Tom Paris, who went to school under a different name because he didn't want to be associated with Admiral His Dad. Nick Locarno is Paris's transporter clone.
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Nov 9, 2023 05:51
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Lemniscate Blue posted:I know the producers decided that Locarno as a character was "irredeemable" and so Paris was created as a not-Locarno that didn't have the baggage in the audience's mind, but really that was a chickenshit choice and they should have just gone with the original version.
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Nov 9, 2023 06:01
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Foxfire_ posted:I thought Paris was invented because "Don't even get any thoughts that we owe you any 'Based on a character created by' royalties or credits" Nah, that's not how it works.
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Nov 9, 2023 06:20
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Foxfire_ posted:I thought Paris was invented because "Don't even get any thoughts that we owe you any 'Based on a character created by' royalties or credits" Nope. Scripts are work-for-hire; Paramount automatically owned the character of Locarno. The reason Locarno wasn't in Voyager was because in developing the show, Berman and Piller really wanted to work with Robert Duncan McNeill, but Jeri Taylor insisted that Locarno was unredeemable for his actions in The First Duty. So the end result was Tom Paris, who was Locarno in everything but name.
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Nov 9, 2023 06:55
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Locarno got one lovely pilot killed and Paris got three people killed
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Nov 9, 2023 07:01
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CPColin posted:Locarno got one lovely pilot killed and Paris got three people killed Locarno pressured the surviving cadet pilots to lie in support of his story - and more to the point, the audience saw this and didn't see him express any conflict or remorse over it. He was never shown as anything other than a manipulative scumbag. I can understand Taylor's position because we were only told that Tom Paris had done a bad thing, and what we were shown was more impactful in developing the audience's perception of him. Even if his actions had been exactly the same, the perception wouldn't be as badly colored by it because we didn't see it happen. It's weird but it's a thing. I still think it was the wrong call, done because they didn't have faith in the writing team to handle a redemption arc. And they were probably right.
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Nov 9, 2023 07:16
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CPColin posted:Locarno got one lovely pilot killed and Paris got three people killed Exactly, making Paris a way better fit for Janeway's crew.
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Nov 9, 2023 07:55
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Aces High posted:So is the Valiant episode of DS9 just a personal takedown of Wesley? A sort of "this is what happens when you let the wünderkinder in positions of power before giving them actual experience" kinda thing? In part probably but the cult of personality around Captain Cadet was the big downfall, though of course those things would feed into each other. As soon as one thing went wrong and the captain didn’t have the answer no one below him was capable of thinking for themselves. The lone survivor of the crew could still only blame herself and everyone else.
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Nov 9, 2023 08:12
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Tell a bunch of kids that they're the elite and give them power and things get real fuckin' bad real fuckin' fast.
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Nov 9, 2023 08:19
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Tell a bunch of kids that they're the elite and give them power and things get real fuckin' bad real fuckin' fast. Reminds me of an old anime series from like 20 years ago called Infinite Ryvius. A space high school gets marooned on a derelict warship after a terrorist attack on their space school that kills all the teachers, and the class of cadets that were basically on the pipeline to becoming naval officers decide that they're the ones who should naturally become the bridge crew when they get the ship online and spaceworthy. And they all very quickly prove themselves to be utter shitheads and get overthrown by a literal gang of dropout delinquents within like a week.
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Nov 9, 2023 09:04
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Red Squad was already pretty fascist from the whole "sabotaging the Earth power grid to send it into a panic and provide a cover for the assassination and coup of the president" incident. Getting hopelessly out of their depth trying to handle a near-impossible mission for adults that the entire crew misunderstood the parameters for kinda fits. Good riddance.
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Nov 9, 2023 14:41
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Timby posted:Nope. Scripts are work-for-hire; Paramount automatically owned the character of Locarno. You say that but in the Memory Alpha trivia for the episode where Vedek Bareil gets killed they mention that the writer is sad his character is going because he got paid whenever they were used. This is what it says quote:Robert Hewitt Wolfe, who created Bareil for "In the Hands of the Prophets", commented: "Ron butchered my character, what can I say? I think it was a good episode, but that's one character payment I'll never see again. I do think the episode works well because he was an important part of Kira's life, so it has impact on the audience, which had gotten to know Bareil". Aces High posted:So is the Valiant episode of DS9 just a personal takedown of Wesley? A sort of "this is what happens when you let the wünderkinder in positions of power before giving them actual experience" kinda thing? When I was watching this again recently it annoyed me a bit that Jake/Nog manage to escape without any issue. I wish they'd had a little bit in there about Nog maybe using his experience to not get blown up on the bridge like everyone else. Jake is somewhere else, so it doesn't seem quite as weird with him but I don't like when the show goes "Only our heroes escape!" and doesn't give us any reasoning behind it to make it less "Because they're the important ones" I know Jake's friend manages to escape too, but it still feels a bit strange to me. You also wonder what the gently caress they've been doing behind enemy lines running the ship for what, 3 months? Taear fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Nov 9, 2023 |
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Nov 9, 2023 15:37
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Locarno pressured the surviving cadet pilots to lie in support of his story - and more to the point, the audience saw this and didn't see him express any conflict or remorse over it. He was never shown as anything other than a manipulative scumbag. Locarno caused Picard to go ballistic on Wesley and deliver that famous "you don't deserve that uniform"-speech. That was the cool TNG-Picard losing his temper, giving a verbal beatdown to his favorite kid, and implying that if it were up to him he might proverbially airlock Locarno for what he did while wearing the uniform. The Nu-Trek Picard would yell to Locarno for letting too many pilots survive because they chickened out but that's whole another issue.
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Nov 9, 2023 15:45
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Taear posted:You say that but in the Memory Alpha trivia for the episode where Vedek Bareil gets killed they mention that the writer is sad his character is going because he got paid whenever they were used. Was Wolfe on the DS9 writing staff when he created Bareil or was he a freelancer? With Lorcano, he was created by a TNG writing staff member so he would be wholly the property of the TNG production office. I’m curious about the ownership of O’Brien though - when he first appears he’s a nameless conn officer and doesn’t even get a name until Season 2. Was O’Brien the transporter guy always intended to be Colm Meaney, or did someone devise the character O’Brien and during casting they decided Meaney would be good for it?
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Nov 9, 2023 16:23
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Der Kyhe posted:The Nu-Trek Picard would yell to Locarno for letting too many pilots survive because they chickened out but that's whole another issue. Picard probably murdered a few people during a post track meet riot. He was nearly booted from the Academy
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Nov 9, 2023 16:45
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You'd think after the Nova Squadron incident, their participation in an attempted coup of Federation leadership, and the taking of a state-of-the-art warship behind enemy lines for an unsanctioned campaign against all common sense that the Academy would crack down on these elite cadet orgs
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Nov 9, 2023 17:03
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zoux posted:You'd think after the Nova Squadron incident, their participation in an attempted coup of Federation leadership, and the taking of a state-of-the-art warship behind enemy lines for an unsanctioned campaign against all common sense that the Academy would crack down on these elite cadet orgs This is the organization that has "no escalation/first fire" policy regardless of the fact that two out of their three main enemies use cloaking technology and debilitating first strike as a strategy of choice.
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Nov 9, 2023 17:06
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Zaroff posted:Was Wolfe on the DS9 writing staff when he created Bareil or was he a freelancer? He was on staff, he left in series 5.
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Nov 9, 2023 17:09
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The Academy probably still hasn't solved the problem of the Bolian frat house destroying the campus sewer system after every synthe-kegger
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Nov 9, 2023 17:10
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Paradoxish posted:The best two Neelix moments are Tuvok murdering Holo-Neelix and Neelix learning that his entire spiritual worldview is a sham. Distant third to the episode with the war criminal, since there's actually some decent character development there.
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Nov 9, 2023 18:15
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Hahaha is that from the aliens who teleport away organs because they are shambling sickos made of rotting parts?
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Nov 9, 2023 18:19
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Der Kyhe posted:This is the organization that has "no escalation/first fire" policy regardless of the fact that two out of their three main enemies use cloaking technology and debilitating first strike as a strategy of choice. It does rather imply that the Romulans and Klingons both embraced decloak-and-strike tactics as battle doctrine by the 24th century specifically because it's so effective against the Federation ethos. We know that there's an arms race between cloaking device and sensors. The Feddies are always whipping up new ways in the field to detect cloaked ships and presumably that gets folded into new sensor operations procedures and tech refits, so new cloaking systems need to find a way to mask whatever emissions are being detected this time. I've always gotten the impression that Federation ships are actually more high-tech than their Romulan or Klingon counterparts, because they're generally portrayed as roughly balanced in fighting capability. The D'deridex is a major threat to a Galaxy-class because it's simply bigger and has more power and space available to bolt weapons to, and the Klingons build giant-rear end battlewagons too by late TNG/DS9. But here's the thing - a TNG-era Federation ship of the line is not primarily a fighting platform - it's a multipurpose vessel whose main role is exploration and research. The fact that the three main powers in the Alpha and Beta quadrants are treated as equivtech ignores the fact that the typical exploration cruiser is allocating a smaller proportion of its volume to combat systems than a D'deridex or a Vor'cha. This implies that Federation weapons tech provides significantly more gently caress-you-per-unit-volume than their supposed rivals. Really the only thing that makes the Klingon Empire a potential threat to the Federation - and this is probably true of the Romulans as well, although that's more difficult to determine due to their highly secretive nature - is the Federation's extreme reluctance to transition to a war footing and fight a total war. It's the only reason the Cardassians didn't get stomped flat, that's textual. The Federation wasn't willing to dedicate a large enough proportion of its economic and military capacity to fight that war as decisively as they could have. In effect they were pulling their punches. Even a second-rater like the Nebula-class Sutherland wiped the floor with several Cardassian warships simultaneously without breaking a sweat. We've seen what happens when Starfleet builds a ship that maximizes combat capability in the Defiant, which hits way above its weight class (and not just because it's a hero ship). That's one reason the Dominion War was so interesting. We'd seen Starfleet go up against threats that outclassed them before (the Borg) but those were one-offs that were defeated largely through pluck and technobabbly tricks. The Dominion was a power, with not just a technological edge but a massive economic at their disposal that they could fully dedicate to becoming an existential threat over an extended and continuous war. And that tested the Federation's dedication to its ethos. How much are you willing to suffer, how many billions killed, before you start fighting dirty? Can you recover from that once the war is over, or will you be forever falling down that slippery slope? And in many of the best and most interesting episodes of DS9, they stumbled and failed, both on a level of individual and organizational decision-making. The conspiracy to bring the Romulans into the war, the coup in "Homefront", Section 31's whole thing, all showed Starfleet officers making mistakes and compromising their ideals, because the struggle to be better is a constant one. The trial never ended because it never ends. But that doesn't mean you get to give up and embrace being a bastard. After all, "It's easy to be a saint in paradise."
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Nov 9, 2023 19:24
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Khanstant posted:Hahaha is that from the aliens who teleport away organs because they are shambling sickos made of rotting parts? The Vidiians were so gross, the one thing that Voyager definitely did was earn its costuming and makeup accolades. One thing I'd do if I were the Federation, and the RSE no longer existed, is install loving cloaks on all my poo poo
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Nov 9, 2023 19:40
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Der Kyhe posted:The Nu-Trek Picard would yell to Locarno for letting too many pilots survive because they chickened out but that's whole another issue. Far as I'm concerned, there is no Nu-Trek-Picard. Our time with Jean-Luc ends with Sisko's angry confrontation with him in Emissary.
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Nov 9, 2023 20:11
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Far as I'm concerned, there is no Nu-Trek-Picard. Our time with Jean-Luc ends with Sisko's angry confrontation with him in Emissary. I've gone to the memory editors and replaced all my memories of all scenes with any picard with 
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Nov 9, 2023 20:27
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Khanstant posted:I've gone to the memory editors and replaced all my memories of all scenes with any picard with I've erased all my computer memory of seeing Picard to make room for Kira in Our Man Bashir
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Nov 9, 2023 20:41
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davidspackage posted:I've erased all my computer memory of seeing Picard to make room for Kira with Quark's beautiful head.
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Nov 9, 2023 20:57
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Der Kyhe posted:This is the organization that has "no escalation/first fire" policy regardless of the fact that two out of their three main enemies use cloaking technology and debilitating first strike as a strategy of choice. seems like if you see a klingon ship and it isn't uncloaking and unloading all their weapons on you immediately, they probably want to talk and you shouldn't shoot first if the klingon ship is cloaked and you can't detect it, it isn't like you're gonna be able to fire first Lemniscate Blue posted:It does rather imply that the Romulans and Klingons both embraced decloak-and-strike tactics as battle doctrine by the 24th century specifically because it's so effective against the Federation ethos. This is also an arms race that the Federation has a huge advantage on. Every time the Romulans improve their cloaks, it only gets them back to the status quo of 'cannot be seen', while every time the Federation improves their sensors, not only can they see Romulan cloaks, they also improve all their other bullshit, which is why in TNG the Enterprise's sensors can detect a few grams of gold from a star system multiple light years away. Tunicate fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Nov 9, 2023 |
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Nov 9, 2023 22:34
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Personally if I was uncertain about the emotions and motivations of Klingons in the Star Trek universe I’d get a Betazoid to memorize the works of Shakespeare. “They’re thinking of Hamlet, Captain. You’re hosed.” “RED ALERT!”
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Nov 9, 2023 22:42
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Lemniscate Blue posted:The D'deridex is a major threat to a Galaxy-class Love that dang ship. 
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Nov 9, 2023 22:46
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I still maintain that people tend to overstate its power, and in-show it's generally depicted as roughly on par with a Galaxy, not much more powerful. The Romulans like to skate by on seeming more powerful than they are.
MikeJF fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Nov 9, 2023 |
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Nov 9, 2023 22:49
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MikeJF posted:I still maintain that people tend to overstate its power, and in-show it's generally depicted as roughly on par with a Galaxy, not much more powerful. The Romulans like to skate by on seeming more powerful than they are. from what I understand that's kind of the point of them being big and hollow from a design language standpoint
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Nov 9, 2023 22:52
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Tunicate posted:from what I understand that's kind of the point of them being big and hollow from a design language standpoint 
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Nov 9, 2023 22:56
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I'd take a random Warbird vs. a non Enterprise-D Galaxy any day
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Nov 9, 2023 23:24
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