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lightpole posted:I thought Hamas took control of Gaza from Fatah by force, and now all aid, or what there is, goes through them. They are in control through force, not because they are legitimately elected no? Not that there's been any chance at nurturing Palistinian democracy or doing any state building as Isreal would not allow it. So we really have no idea. Hamas won the one election in Gaza held after the PA’s establishment. Fatah refused to cede power and Hamas then took over by force. I’m not sure why it’s seen as unthinkable that Israelis would be averse to living in a multi-ethnic state given that the whole reason given for its founding is to protect Jews from annihilation. Given that Hamas just did a pretty good job of annihilating people for the few hours they had control over majority-Jewish areas, that’s going to be an even harder sell for a while. Again, I personally would love to see a non-sectarian state in Israel/Palestine, but literally almost no one actually in the area supports that, they want total victory and Jewish supremacy/an Islamic state. The non-Zionist left in Israel gets almost no votes outside the Arab minority, and polling among Palestinians in the West Bank indicates the most hard line extreme factions are the only ones with popular support (*no one* supports Fatah any more due to its complicity with the occupation). There’s no Nelson Mandela willing to get everyone to work towards coexistence, just a lot of people with grudges going back decades or centuries. Thus, demanding this be solved by Israel ceding power to a multi-ethnic Palestine “from the river to the sea” is magical thinking at best, and willingness to ignore what happens immediately afterwards at worst.
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Nov 8, 2023 23:31
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There's a vast power imbalance between Israel and the Palestinians, and the only party who can reasonably change that is Israel. Hamas killed ~1400 Israelis in their attack, which is not good. Israel has killed more than 10k Palestinian civilians (including 4000 children) in response, so far. And it's not like that disproportionate response is not a new thing, it's a consistent factor.  All of Palestine is held hostage by Israel. It's a problem of Israel's own creation. Past atrocities committed against Jews doesn't justify Israel committing those same atrocities against other peoples.
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Nov 8, 2023 23:58
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Yes, war is bad. Israel is exceptionally disproportionate in its response and is pretty consistent in its ignoring various LOAC, but war is by its very nature a disproportionate response. You don't stop shooting when the kill count hits a certain point to make things fair. If things have devolved to war, everything has already failed and people are dying. Again, this is bad. Speaking of war, the US just bombed an IRGC weapons depot in Syria. https://apnews.com/article/syria-iran-airstrikes-attack-bases-5be245a2927334ad0d78b8ec35fa55b7 Lum_ fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Nov 9, 2023 |
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Nov 9, 2023 00:35
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Lum_ posted:
Palestine pre-Israel was one of the friendlier regions for jews at the start of the 20th century. You don't get to found a modern state and decide it has to be ethnically homogenous. That's the legacy of the holocaust in the western world. So adverse or not, either you deal or you become the same kind of evil pariah that is supposed to unite the rest of the world in opposition.
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Nov 9, 2023 01:07
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Lum, i think you're overstating the hostility of Palestinians, tbh. West Bank Palestinians are demonstrably capable of more or less peaceful coexistence, and Gazan support for "let's wipe out the lot" insofar as it can be polled seems to be way way under half even under Oct 6 conditions. admittedly even 10% or less of 2m people wanting to wipe out Israel is a problem for the not-insane-genocidal-racists Israeli demographics, in much the same way as the insane genocidal racist Israeli demographic is a problem for everyone
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Nov 9, 2023 01:18
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there's also nobody worth mentioning with grudges going back centuries plural, it's been less than a century since ww2
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Nov 9, 2023 01:20
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Google Jeb Bush posted:Lum, i think you're overstating the hostility of Palestinians, tbh. Polling in the West Bank consistently shows a rejection of the two-state solution, and support for armed resistance. From September of this year: https://pcpsr.org/en/node/955 quote:76% believe Israel does not implement the Oslo Accords; 49% believe the PA does not implement the Oslo Accords Google Jeb Bush posted:there's also nobody worth mentioning with grudges going back centuries plural, it's been less than a century since ww2 Aside from the Jews disagreeing with you on that, the Crusades are still a point of contention in the region. You vastly underestimate the Middle East's capacity for grudge-holding.
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Nov 9, 2023 02:52
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Classy grief avatar. Not a fan. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 9, 2023 02:53
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Lum_ posted:Yes, war is bad. Israel is exceptionally disproportionate in its response and is pretty consistent in its ignoring various LOAC, but war is by its very nature a disproportionate response. You don't stop shooting when the kill count hits a certain point to make things fair. If things have devolved to war, everything has already failed and people are dying. Again, this is bad. There is a fundamental difference between civilian casualties as a result of bombing an enemy factory and a retaliatory campaign where you intentional target civilians for the sole reason that they are civilians.
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Nov 9, 2023 02:57
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Lum_ posted:Polling in the West Bank consistently shows a rejection of the two-state solution, and support for armed resistance. I mean, so far peaceful means have only gotten them slow genocide and the proposed two-state solution still leaves them boxed into two small exclaves in what used to be their homeland prior to the British loving around. I don't think it speaks so much to the inherent hostility of the Palestinians as it does their basic ability to recognize that a given solution is massively unfair and that a method has failed to work for them for decades. I would be amazed to see group of people who, after being treated like the Palestinians have, didn't demand a better deal and had zero faith in negotiating with their bully.
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Nov 9, 2023 03:45
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psydude posted:While it's different in a lot of ways, maybe something similar to the Northern Ireland peace process? The establishment of Gaza and the West Bank as a sovereign state (or something close to it), disarmament of militant groups on both sides, and the acknowledgement of the right to be Israeli or Palestinian and the right to live in each other's territories? A Northern Ireland model for peace also involves ending the cycles of retributive violence. Some people are being told that the investigation into their family member who was murdered, will not continue. Both sides have to let vengeance go. Accept dead family as the price for peace for every family. Nobody thought it could happen in Northern Ireland, no one thinks it can happen in Israel/Palestine. Give peace a chance. https://www.npr.org/2023/11/03/1202684198/northern-ireland-troubles-prosecutions-ban-new-law
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Nov 9, 2023 04:33
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When talking about how Palestinians hate Israelis, just think of them as human beings and put yourself in their shoes. Since 1948 horrible things have been done to them with the assent of most of the world, and rarely any recognition that anything has been done to them. They have grown up seeing people killed and wounded all around them. Many of them have had to leave their homes on 5 minute notice before everything they have in this world was blown up. Think about what that would do to a child. Most kids in Gaza have PTSD from the constant bombings and nighttime raids. Israel "put Gaza on a diet" by controlling the food allowed in and limiting their ability to fish. Israeli settlers are constantly destroying olive trees and agricultural land with the aid of the IDF. Building permits are very rarely issued and since people need to live somewhere, they build without. Israel destroys those buildings frequently but generally allows illegal settlements on their land. It is an extremely long list of grievances. So yeah, they are going to hate Israelis, because they are human. And like other humans, they can make peace with their enemy if given the chance (which means a just peace, not a blockade and denial of statehood or representation).
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Nov 9, 2023 05:32
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This kind of poo poo creeps me the gently caress out. The unspoken implication of "and we're retaking the land for our religion; all interlopers shall be cast out!" lurks just barely beneath the surface. https://twitter.com/msfreund/status/1721975029850628104 quote:Wow! For the first time in decades, #Israeli soldiers prayed in the ancient synagogue in #Gaza which was built in the 6th century and where a beautiful mosaic floor depicting King David was unearthed years ago. #Jews have returned to Gaza!!#Israel #Hamas pic.twitter.com/H9huNA7FVM
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Nov 9, 2023 06:16
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A month after the genocide started saudi arabia finally bothers to send one plane of aid to gaza. https://x.com/ajarabic/status/1722564091728822429?s=46&t=kY7HKwmb1RBg9U186lxtbg Worthless shits
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Nov 9, 2023 11:45
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https://www.politico.eu/article/belgium-deputy-pm-petra-de-sutter-sanction-israel-over-war-gaza/quote:Petra De Sutter, Belgium’s deputy prime minister from the Greens, called on the country’s government to sanction Israel on Wednesday. “It is time for sanctions against Israel. The bombing is inhumane,” she posted on X, formerly Twitter. “While war crimes are being committed in Gaza, Israel ignores the international demand for a cease-fire.”
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Nov 9, 2023 11:45
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The interesting thing to me in all of this is how the west has shifted. In UK+EU our media were always more open about Israel’s share of the atrocities than in the US. Now I would say that for under-50s, there’s broad support for the Palestinians. It doesn’t actually matter until the governments shift position (which apart from Belgium they probably won’t because they’re US allies and this is a might-still-become-WW3 situation), and my guess is Europe or UK will pick up the inevitable terrorist attacks before the US does. But at some point the pressure will be impossible to resist and the EU and maybe also UK will flip. The most believable analysis I saw of all of this was an article that suggested neither Hamas nor Likud leadership actually expected or planned for for any of what happened and they’re both winging it.
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Nov 9, 2023 12:41
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Beefeater1980 posted:The interesting thing to me in all of this is how the west has shifted. In UK+EU our media were always more open about Israel’s share of the atrocities than in the US. Now I would say that for under-50s, there’s broad support for the Palestinians. Even in the US, some people who I would say have been generally racist or hostile to Palestinians are starting to say "okay this is a bit much." Which is why it’s so maddening to see certain politicians closing ranks (Fetterman, Sanders). The disconnect between public perception and policy feels massive. They've decided to just power through it and tell us that we just "don't get it" (if not resorting to bad-faith accusations of antisemitism). It's like 2003 on mega steroids.
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Nov 9, 2023 13:59
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Most US news sites also have lots of articles about Palestinian suffering and stories about kids dying. That feels different from last times.
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Nov 9, 2023 14:46
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While the American public seem like they might be starting to wake up to what Israel is and does, in the UK most people already knew, and it wasn't particularly controversial until recently for a politician to criticise Israel in a way American politicians never would. That's been changing though, at least on the political level. A few years ago there was a major push with lots of money from the Israeli government to influence the UK's politicians and media to be more pro-Israel. A guy called Shai Masot from the Israeli embassy was secretly filmed bragging about the money allocated to take down unsympathetic MPs and was later sent home with promises he wasn't a spy. It coincided with the cynical weaponising of anti-semitism accusations to destroy a fiercely anti-racist social-democrat who accidentally became leader of the Labour party, and to purge Labour of its left wing. Now we have the leader of what was a staunchly pro-Palestinian Labour party happily endorsing Israel's warcrimes. The Tory Home Secretary declaring pro-palestine sentiment hate crime. And entities like The Campaign Against Antisemitism being quoted in The Guardian calling on the government to deploy soldiers onto the streets to stop lawful pro-Palestine demonstrations, because the police refused to bow to political pressure to ban them. The Campaign Against Antisemitism being a charity initially funded by the Jewish National Fund (the Israeli settlement funding org) and set up around the time Masot was active. And presently under investigation for not meeting the non-political requirements for a charity.
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Nov 9, 2023 16:06
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Discussion Quorum posted:Even in the US, some people who I would say have been generally racist or hostile to Palestinians are starting to say "okay this is a bit much." Piggy backing on this, some of y'all need to think back to just how much 9/11 broke brains and caused US politics to go insane for the better part of a decade. This attack was arguably much worse than 9/11 when it comes to psychological effect. The body count is not as high but the entire country has a population comparable to New York City. Also, the killings weren't from a single event but drawn out via direct personal violence, some of which carried shocking cruelty/brutality. So you have the combination of the NYC "everyone knows someone affected" effect with a more psychologically traumatic mechanism for violence, and it shouldn't be surprising brains are broke as gently caress. Which isn't to defend Israel's actions, but I can understand where they come from in the same way I can understand how the Israeli treatment of Gaza created a pressure cooker of anger and resentment that exploded into that horrible event. And therein lay the issue at the core of retributive violence on a population level. It's very often driven by very real wrongs committed against people that have a very legitimate claim to retribution, but it is almost never visited upon those actually responsible for those wrongs. It only works if you stop seeing people as individuals and view them as dehumanized pieces of the country/ethnicity/clan/etc.
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Nov 9, 2023 16:30
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Chiming in to say that I'm appreciating the tone and gravitas this thread is taking with I/P. I've linked it to a few people in the last week and two have  because it's literally the only place on the Internet that you can have this level of serious conversation about it without some hothead constantly trying to Well Actually the whole thing.
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Nov 9, 2023 17:02
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Jarmak posted:Piggy backing on this, some of y'all need to think back to just how much 9/11 broke brains and caused US politics to go insane for the better part of a decade. This attack was arguably much worse than 9/11 when it comes to psychological effect. The body count is not as high but the entire country has a population comparable to New York City. Also, the killings weren't from a single event but drawn out via direct personal violence, some of which carried shocking cruelty/brutality. I think one notable big difference here is that there really isn't anything new about what Israel is doing here, it's just a matter of scale. Israel was already committing the same crimes without the fuse of a major atrocity to set them off.
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Nov 9, 2023 17:17
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Jarmak posted:Piggy backing on this, some of y'all need to think back to just how much 9/11 broke brains and caused US politics to go insane for the better part of a decade. This attack was arguably much worse than 9/11 when it comes to psychological effect. The body count is not as high but the entire country has a population comparable to New York City. Also, the killings weren't from a single event but drawn out via direct personal violence, some of which carried shocking cruelty/brutality. While this does seem to be happening there is a pretty big difference between the two events. Unlike the seemingly out of the blue major terrorist attack that 9/11 was for most Americans, this should not have been a huge surprise to most Israelis. It should not have the same "lose their mind" effect. Its an escalation of a long running conflict The US was sowing the seeds of a terror attack prior to 9/11, but in a much more oblique way than the very direct way that Israel has prior to the 10/7 attack. To me it seems much more of, "we already hate these people and wish they didn't exist and now they just attacked us. It's time to lay waste to them until the world makes us stop". The US was absolutely out for revenge after 9/11, but we didn't exactly send B52's to carpet bomb Kabul on 9/12.
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Nov 9, 2023 17:21
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Potato Salad posted:Chiming in to say that I'm appreciating the tone and gravitas this thread is taking with I/P. I've linked it to a few people in the last week and two have They're not wrong, i'm not contributing here but i am listening... because everywhere else just a little too loopy for me atm. 
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Nov 9, 2023 18:04
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Jarmak posted:Piggy backing on this, some of y'all need to think back to just how much 9/11 broke brains and caused US politics to go insane for the better part of a decade. This attack was arguably much worse than 9/11 when it comes to psychological effect. The body count is not as high but the entire country has a population comparable to New York City. Also, the killings weren't from a single event but drawn out via direct personal violence, some of which carried shocking cruelty/brutality. To me this current conflict highlights that terrorism works. It's intended to be such an affront that it not only provokes a response, but *requires* a response. After 9/11 the US put its dick firmly in the bees nest of ME conflict. Which of course earned them huge and lasting ire from the people there as well as being a draining, unproductive conflict. With Israel it is the same. Israel's disproportionate counter attack was part of the intent. Now it's Israel that's sticking its dick back into a painful place that it pulled out of long ago. But it can't really do anything else. Israel will exert its might against Gaza and almost certainly be worse off for it after a few years of it. I'm not very emotionally invested in the conflict but the air of inevitably I do find depressing.
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Nov 9, 2023 19:12
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kill me now posted:While this does seem to be happening there is a pretty big difference between the two events. Unlike the seemingly out of the blue major terrorist attack that 9/11 was for most Americans, this should not have been a huge surprise to most Israelis. It should not have the same "lose their mind" effect. Its an escalation of a long running conflict I had a long response to this typed out and accidently lost it, but I'll say this: There are people on this forum, and even in this thread, who feel strongly enough about this conflict that they feel compelled to rationalize away the deaths of innocent people by tying them to the crimes of the larger group they belong to (or hell in the case of some of them, just merely associate with). People who have no direct connection to this conflict at all are still able to be emotionally invested enough to rationalize the deaths of kids in their early 20s because they were insensitive about where they had a party. I was not empathetic enough, or aware enough, or thoughtful enough when I was 22-23 to see the ideological implications of most of the poo poo I was doing. Were any of you? Did we all deserve to be brutally murdered for being idiot kids? So if unaffected people on the internet on the other side of the world feel compelled to dehumanize people like that to justify an outlet for their anger, how do you think it works for the guy who's coworker's son or daughter was beheaded? Do you think they're having a thoughtful introspection about the conditions and history that led us to this point, and then deciding this is their chance to finally be rid of the Palestinians? Or do you think they're going "Make those people pay and stop from them from ever hurting us again, and gently caress anyone who gets in the way" while rationalizing away every atrocity their side commits as either somehow necessary to that end, or that the victims somehow deserve to be lumped in with the people who need to pay?
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Nov 9, 2023 19:52
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https://twitter.com/gardnerakayla/status/1722639123830259929
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Nov 9, 2023 20:27
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At least he is being honest. I don't see either side making any form of concessions to make a cease fire possible.
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Nov 9, 2023 20:41
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Jarmak posted:I had a long response to this typed out and accidently lost it, but I'll say this: The people in power in Israel who are making the decisions to flatten Gaza and push into the west bank right now are using the situation to further their ends. They aren't doing this systematic destruction purely out of rage. I get what you are saying about the feelings of the people on the ground who have been directly effected by the October 7th attack. They have every right to be upset and to hate Hamas. They even can be justified, right or wrong at letting the hate for Hamas spill over to a general hate of Palestinians right now. But they aren't the ones in charge. It also doesn't absolve the other world leaders who haven't strongly condemned the ongoing violence and in the US's case even continued military support for it, despite the constant stream of dead and dismembered kids that flows daily from Gaza. Its not as though this is happening in the dark. Its being broadcast in 4k on social media. There is no "oh we didn't know how bad it was" excuse.
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Nov 9, 2023 20:57
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Not to mention that the Hamas attack has largely been used, much like 9/11 was, as a way to carry out things that the Israeli Government was just looking for an excuse to do. They always wanted to do this, this was just a catalyst for them to press the Go button. And for all we know (conjecture here) they knew it was coming and stayed complacent to exploit this outrage.
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Nov 9, 2023 21:05
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kill me now posted:The people in power in Israel who are making the decisions to flatten Gaza and push into the west bank right now are using the situation to further their ends. They aren't doing this systematic destruction purely out of rage. Let's be clear, I'm talking about people in general, gently caress the people in charge. Likud is just as bad as Hamas.
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Nov 9, 2023 21:37
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Jarmak posted:I had a long response to this typed out and accidently lost it, but I'll say this: Imo you're missing a key part of why it resonates so strongly with people : the extremely obvious disparity of power. Like to me, watching Israel brutalise and oppress palestinians for decades and then acting like they're the ones facing an existential threat when palestinians fight back is just the grossest hypocrisy. They deliberately created the conditions that directly led to this, with literal sci-fi dystopian poo poo like remote we all have to sit and watch while all our govts all try to gaslight us about it and actively suppress any dissenting opinions. Anyway thats my rant/venting into the void. Israel loving sucks.
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Nov 9, 2023 21:53
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kill me now posted:While this does seem to be happening there is a pretty big difference between the two events. Unlike the seemingly out of the blue major terrorist attack that 9/11 was for most Americans, this should not have been a huge surprise to most Israelis. It should not have the same "lose their mind" effect. Its an escalation of a long running conflict it's the same in that Iron Dome had led them to believe they were invincible
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Nov 9, 2023 23:08
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shame on an IGA posted:it's the same in that Iron Dome had led them to believe they were invincible The wall and iron dome might have made them feel invincible, but it would be like the people of Seoul being flabbergasted to see the NK army blow through the DMZ. Shocked? sure, but surprised? probably not. The US had its 2 great oceans to distance it from any aggressor. Sure they may blow up a Navy ship at a foreign port, or bomb an embassy somewhere. But that's as bad as it gets. An Israeli at most could say, yeah they regularly shoot rockets at us, but we have a defense system that shoots them down almost all the time. They are still aware that someone not too far away is trying to kill them on a regular basis.
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Nov 9, 2023 23:40
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Radical 90s Wizard posted:Imo you're missing a key part of why it resonates so strongly with people : the extremely obvious disparity of power. I get your point, and I don't think you're wrong per se, but keep in mind that Israel has been surrounded by hostile armed nations for a significant part of its existence and has had to fight them in major wars on at least 3 occasions. So the "us against the world" mindset is rooted in the historic struggle, not necessarily the modern day power imbalance.
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Nov 10, 2023 00:00
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Jarmak posted:People who have no direct connection to this conflict at all are still able to be emotionally invested enough to rationalize the deaths of kids in their early 20s because they were insensitive about where they had a party. I was not empathetic enough, or aware enough, or thoughtful enough when I was 22-23 to see the ideological implications of most of the poo poo I was doing. Were any of you? Did we all deserve to be brutally murdered for being idiot kids? Being fair here, most of the folks who think the rave massacre was "lol, lmao" (and/or a valid military raid because nearly every young Israeli is an IDF reservist) are... located elsewhere on this website.  On the other hand, Palestinian children dying does seem to be pretty funny to some Israeli TikTokers! Civilian or not, those assholes can  a wayward JDAM for all I care.Not to downplay the US's blasé attitude towards "collateral damage," but I don't remember dead or suffering children being widespread comedy fodder in 2001 or 2003. Maybe it's not widespread in Israel either, but the attitude towards civilian casualties filtering out certainly seems less "hard choices must be made (but we're trying to seem sad about it)" and more "yeah let's fuckin' GO"
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Nov 10, 2023 00:57
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That’s an aspect of everyone being internet poisoned I think. The idea that people must take sides, and you have to go all in for your side. When this all started with the massacres on Oct 7, I got this sickened feeling, partly because I was horrified at the brutality of the killings and partly because it was very very obvious what kind of response it was going to provoke given the fuckwits running Israel right now. And indeed it provoked exactly that response, and in the last month the horror has mostly come from watching Israel unload its arsenal on the civilian population of the Gaza strip, dispassionately committing more massacres over and over again, in revenge. I’m a believer in people loving up more than a believer in genius strategists. So while it’s possible that someone in a Hamas bunker (or more realistically, living a pleasant life somewhere far from Gaza) planned all this out, I find it more likely that there was an opportunistic raid which intended to do a little light butchery of civilian families on the side but not at the kind of scale that occurred, and the response has shocked them (also the very predictable unwillingness of the neighbours to intervene). Israel also doesn’t really have an off ramp now, which is presumably why the US and UN seem to be trying to build one. Just people in power loving up and trying to avoid consequences, over and over again.
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Nov 10, 2023 01:13
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Discussion Quorum posted:Being fair here, most of the folks who think the rave massacre was "lol, lmao" (and/or a valid military raid because nearly every young Israeli is an IDF reservist) are... located elsewhere on this website. If I was to give people some benefit of the doubt, rather than just considering them to be utter ghouls, I could see a disregard towards the lives of Israeli settler civilians from the logic that they are directly choosing to benefit from the IDF's crimes(and that if they weren't choosing to move in and settle on the ruins of Palestinian homes, many of those crimes might not happen at all) and that many of them do pick up guns and go commit some war crimes in their spare time. But like, obviously, while they're partying out in some backlot, it's impossible to tell who's just visiting and who shoots at local Palestinians for sport, and I doubt the Hamas fighters involved stopped to check if anyone had an outstanding ICC warrant before opening fire. So no, I don't think a bunch of teens getting gunned down in the desert is good. Beefeater1980 posted:I’m a believer in people loving up more than a believer in genius strategists. So while it’s possible that someone in a Hamas bunker (or more realistically, living a pleasant life somewhere far from Gaza) planned all this out, I find it more likely that there was an opportunistic raid which intended to do a little light butchery of civilian families on the side but not at the kind of scale that occurred, and the response has shocked them (also the very predictable unwillingness of the neighbours to intervene). Israel also doesn’t really have an off ramp now, which is presumably why the US and UN seem to be trying to build one. Just people in power loving up and trying to avoid consequences, over and over again. If you believe the Hamas statements, which you may disregard as their trying to get bombed less, when they knocked holes in the fences, apparently a bunch of minor groups and unaffiliated Palestinians just out for revenge made their move as well, which, if true, might've contributed to the "got out of hand"-situation.
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Nov 10, 2023 01:22
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PurpleXVI posted:If you believe the Hamas statements, which you may disregard as their trying to get bombed less, when they knocked holes in the fences, apparently a bunch of minor groups and unaffiliated Palestinians just out for revenge made their move as well, which, if true, might've contributed to the "got out of hand"-situation. There's video of rando people milling about after the fence was breached. Surely some went in on their own accord, were taken along in an impromptu way etc. I also think the lack of Israeli resistance was a surprise. I doubt your average Hamas militant is all that disciplined in the first place, but take him and his unit and put him in the center of a kibbutz for a few hours and it isn't hard to see things getting very out of hand.
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Nov 10, 2023 01:39
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psydude posted:I get your point, and I don't think you're wrong per se, but keep in mind that Israel has been surrounded by hostile armed nations for a significant part of its existence and has had to fight them in major wars on at least 3 occasions. So the "us against the world" mindset is rooted in the historic struggle, not necessarily the modern day power imbalance. The birth of Isreal wasn't exactly a clean affair if you really want to go back. The early believers were not nice people, although coming from the Holocaust its not like they didn't have cause. I'm just not sure that cause was with the Palestinians. Sykes-Picot was just more arbitrary lines drawn on a map leading to tribal conflict, same as many African countries.
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Nov 10, 2023 01:55
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