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Zamujasa posted:If anything, this should increase. Politicians should not be insulated from the effects of their job simply because they aren't on the clock. I don't think it's unethical to ambush politicians or anything, I just don't think it's a very effective way to get them to enact your preferred policy.
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Nov 11, 2023 00:34
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shimmy shimmy posted:I mean, maybe, but this reminds me of the poo poo the legislature pulled in Florida with the felon disenfranchisement which doesn't make me super positive about what the fallout will be. Especially with control over the state supreme court. Florida has had since 1968 to practice effectively subverting any one of the handful of amendments on the ballot every single cycle. We'd never be so dumb as to say that an abortion ban doesn't conflict with the enshrinement of abortion in the constitution. We specialize in taking an amendment that orders us to do something, and then finding all the ways we can not do it while still technically doing it. The proper, Florida way to get around an amendment that doesn't let you do something you want to is to simply put a countervailing amendment on the next ballot. We constitutionally mandated high speed rail, and then the very next cycle unconstitutionally mandated it. At least take the time to find all the ways you can effectively ban abortion through restrictions and requirements, Ohio. loving amateurs.
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Nov 11, 2023 00:36
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Discendo Vox posted:The purpose of confronting a politician in public is not to change their mind directly. It's to film the confrontation and attack them over it, either to undermine them generally on behalf of a third party or to sway them by threatening their reputation with their constituency. The other reason for such events is to use the coverage to raise attention and funding for yourself, both off of participants and the audience you're broadcasting it to. Do you have a reputable source for this assertion? How can you claim to know the internal motivations of these people 
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Nov 11, 2023 00:39
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Zamujasa posted:If anything, this should increase. Politicians should not be insulated from the effects of their job simply because they aren't on the clock. Agreed. It’s often overlooked but the First Amendment of the US Constitution explicitly guarantees our right to petition our Government for a redress of our grievances. Confronting a politician in public is downright American, and it’s a right all citizens should exercise more often.
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Nov 11, 2023 00:41
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FlamingLiberal posted:I said immediately when Adams won that New Yorkers would be begging to have DeBlasio back and while that article's a joke, I think most of them would agree now Everyone should read or listen to this article: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/08/14/eric-adams-profile quote:Mayor Eric Adams’s exuberant self-regard stops just short of biceps-kissing. He has talked in public about the warmth of his own smile. Describing “Healthy at Last,” a book that he published in 2020 about his disciplined response to a diagnosis of Type 2 diabetes, Adams told a podcast host, “Every time I read it, I find another nugget, and say, ‘Wow! This was a good point that I made.’ ” Adams once told an audience, “I get out of the shower sometimes and I say, ‘drat!’ ” He has said that he is the face of a new Democratic Party.
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Nov 11, 2023 01:07
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The Top G posted:Do you have a reputable source for this assertion? How can you claim to know the internal motivations of these people This is not some bold insight, it's the basic advocacy playbook (which yes, I have direct experience with). You don't persuade a politician to do something by filming yourself confronting them during dinner, any more than the people filming themselves getting arrested by Capitol police protesting outside offices. In these scenarios, the politician is the target or a prop, or very rarely a willing participant. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Nov 11, 2023 |
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Nov 11, 2023 01:21
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The Top G posted:Agreed. It’s often overlooked but the First Amendment of the US Constitution explicitly guarantees our right to petition our Government for a redress of our grievances. In many ways its the only way to get their attention even. Protest that doesn't impact commerce - such as a strike or blockade - is often safely ignored until it becomes electorally significant in scope. Politicians have become accustomed to just putting protesters in a little box, free to pretend they don't exist. Bothering them at dinner should be the least of their concerns. Like seriously politicians should be nervous about holding deeply unpopular opinions.
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Nov 11, 2023 01:50
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James Garfield posted:I don't think it's unethical to ambush politicians or anything, I just don't think it's a very effective way to get them to enact your preferred policy. I probably would have agreed until recently. In Mitt Romney's big "elder statesman" interview a month or two ago, he talked about members of the Republican party being afraid to take action against Trump for fear of the safety of their family from grass-roots crazies. That's a significantly higher level of pressure than what's going on here, but government officials aren't any more immune to disruption of their daily lives than they are immune to bribes. That said, I think there is a level of inconvenience that does just result in annoyance and hardening, which something like this runs the risk of doing.
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Nov 11, 2023 01:59
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Kalit posted:Do you think that harassing a person over an issue where they are on the same side as you would make said person more sympathetic? Kalit posted:Eh, I still think ambushing politicians in public while they're not working and just trying to live their own life isn't very productive. To be extremely clear, this is bullshit designed to silence protest. If you abandon a just cause because people were "mean" to you, you were never an ally. Until she clearly and vocally advocates a binding ceasefire, she deserves not a moment of peace. Also this: Discendo Vox posted:This is not some bold insight, it's the basic advocacy playbook (which yes, I have direct experience with). You don't persuade a politician to do something by filming yourself confronting them during dinner, any more than the people filming themselves getting arrested by Capitol police protesting outside offices. In these scenarios, the politician is the target or a prop, or very rarely a willing participant. This is pretty common poo poo. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Nov 11, 2023 |
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Nov 11, 2023 02:13
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It's not like the protestors were interrupting a funeral or something, it was yelling at her at a dinner, over asking her to start supporting a thing she doesn't currently support. It's not too much to ask one of the most powerful people in this country to not take her ball and go home on her opposition to an ongoing genocide because some people were rude to her. Are there even any examples of politicians getting worse and spiteful after getting protested by leftists? Nothing comes to mind for me.
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Nov 11, 2023 02:30
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And all it really does is harden opinion against their side. Like the "Just Stop Oil" idiots and throwing soup on paintings. To steal a line from Shakespeare, it's "sound and fury, signifying nothing". It allows people to feel good that they're "bringing attention to the issue", when all it really is is self-important dick-waggling Right now, the news is filled with attacks on people for supporting Israel (even such humanitarian things as attacking someone at a prayer for the hostages whose fates are still unknown). This kind of performative bullshit only gets the yellers and their cause classed in with real anti-semites. If it makes them feel good, sure. whatever, do whatever you want, but as to winning people to their cause? Not a loving chance, and they should be smart enough to know better. (Personally, I think that the better play is to beg, borrow and steal any bit of airtime to show the atrocities. You gotta win hearts and minds if you want anything to change, and yelling at someone eating dinner isn't gonna do that)
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Nov 11, 2023 04:03
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SirFozzie posted:And all it really does is harden opinion against their side. Like the "Just Stop Oil" idiots and throwing soup on paintings. To steal a line from Shakespeare, it's "sound and fury, signifying nothing". It allows people to feel good that they're "bringing attention to the issue", when all it really is is self-important dick-waggling Seeing as this evening of protest directly shifted our conversation here by learning that Senator Warren does not support a ceasefire and people learning the difference between ceasefire and humanitarian pause, it has already been effective at establishing the morality of their cause and the shaky underpinnings of the melts arranged against it.
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Nov 11, 2023 04:44
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SirFozzie posted:And all it really does is harden opinion against their side. Like the "Just Stop Oil" idiots and throwing soup on paintings. To steal a line from Shakespeare, it's "sound and fury, signifying nothing". It allows people to feel good that they're "bringing attention to the issue", when all it really is is self-important dick-waggling Keep on lecturing the person who had 68 family members die about the correct way to protest dude. Good look.
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Nov 11, 2023 04:45
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More protesters confronting Democratic Senators. In this case, Senator Fetterman seems incapable of acknowledging that killing 10,000 civilians, 4,000 of whom were children, is bad: https://twitter.com/michaelarria/status/1723052309310038116
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Nov 11, 2023 05:04
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SirFozzie posted:And all it really does is harden opinion against their side. Like the "Just Stop Oil" idiots and throwing soup on paintings. To steal a line from Shakespeare, it's "sound and fury, signifying nothing". It allows people to feel good that they're "bringing attention to the issue", when all it really is is self-important dick-waggling As Thomas Aquinas said "holy poo poo, stop whining about your 70 dead relatives, the poor lady is just trying to eat."
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Nov 11, 2023 05:04
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Get that woman on TV, telling her story, and it'll have a better effect. This does nothing to advantage her cause.
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Nov 11, 2023 05:26
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SirFozzie posted:And all it really does is harden opinion against their side. Like the "Just Stop Oil" idiots and throwing soup on paintings. To steal a line from Shakespeare, it's "sound and fury, signifying nothing". It allows people to feel good that they're "bringing attention to the issue", when all it really is is self-important dick-waggling Wasn't Just Stop Oil a false flag funded by someone with ties to some oil company?
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Nov 11, 2023 05:28
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SirFozzie posted:Get that woman on TV, telling her story, and it'll have a better effect. This does nothing to advantage her cause. It does a lot actually. And lol at the idea of the American public giving two shits about a Palestinian with lots of dead Palestinian relatives. I'm struggling to come up with a hypothetical person the American public would care about less.
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Nov 11, 2023 05:29
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SirFozzie posted:It allows people to feel good that they're "bringing attention to the issue", when all it really is is self-important dick-waggling Thank you for unironically being a strawman in a political cartoon. There is no form of protest that cannot be disregarded as "self important dick-waggling", because in order to protest, you have to be self important enough to think your actions will have any effect.
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Nov 11, 2023 05:29
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I think protesting and harassing politicians over made up or extremely minor issues is ridiculous, annoying, and in bad taste. I don't think losing 68 members of your family in an act of aggression that our political establishment is supporting, and said politician is a supporter of is a minor or made up issue. Maybe they should do their loving job? When Ronald Reagan literally has the morality high ground on an issue, it's a bad loving issue to cozy up to. (For those who don't know, Israel was doing Israel things. Reagan, horrified called up the prime minister and demanded they stop. "This is genocide!". They stopped. Reagan commented "I didn't know I had that much power.")
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Nov 11, 2023 05:34
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I had no idea the Eric Adams poo poo went this deep https://twitter.com/JCColtin/status/1721728789728637070
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Nov 11, 2023 05:54
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Nelson Mandingo posted:I think protesting and harassing politicians over made up or extremely minor issues is ridiculous, annoying, and in bad taste. I don't think losing 68 members of your family in an act of aggression that our political establishment is supporting, and said politician is a supporter of is a minor or made up issue. Maybe they should do their loving job? Got a source for that? I've never heard that sory
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Nov 11, 2023 06:04
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Tnega posted:Thank you for unironically being a strawman in a political cartoon. There is no form of protest that cannot be disregarded as "self important dick-waggling", because in order to protest, you have to be self important enough to think your actions will have any effect. Has anyone called it self important dick-waggling to write your representatives or call their office? Those are more likely to change their mind than yelling at them when they eat dinner, it's just mundane and unsexy.
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Nov 11, 2023 06:28
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James Garfield posted:Has anyone called it self important dick-waggling to write your representatives or call their office? Those are more likely to change their mind than yelling at them when they eat dinner, it's just mundane and unsexy. Ah yes, letters and phone calls. Two things famous for directly reaching your representative. Nelson Mandingo posted:
If what you're doing horrified Ronald Reagan lucid enough to call demanding you stop, you should probably stop. You're clearly doing some capital C war crimes. Gyges fucked around with this message at 06:56 on Nov 11, 2023 |
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Nov 11, 2023 06:53
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Jaxyon posted:Got a source for that? It was during the extended Israeli attacks on Lebanon.  I can't find the book or article this comes from, Begin did 100% confirm the story however. https://www.upi.com/Archives/1982/08/29/Begin-says-Reagan-used-word-holocaust/3133399441600/
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Nov 11, 2023 07:09
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James Garfield posted:Has anyone called it self important dick-waggling to write your representatives or call their office? Those are more likely to change their mind than yelling at them when they eat dinner, it's just mundane and unsexy. There is nothing special about writing your representatives that prevents it from being called as such. To those of you reading the thread, please watch the Video About Mainstreaming, The fundamental problem with those opposing confronting politicians directly is that in order to get support, your position must first be visible. If someone claims to support your position, but bemoans how you present it, they most likely do not support your position.
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Nov 11, 2023 07:23
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Gyges posted:Ah yes, letters and phone calls. Two things famous for directly reaching your representative. I mean if you're just trying to get catharsis by yelling at someone you can yell at your representative, that's okay. If you want to change their mind about policy you should use techniques that sometimes work to change people's minds.
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Nov 11, 2023 07:27
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SirFozzie posted:And all it really does is harden opinion against their side. Like the "Just Stop Oil" idiots and throwing soup on paintings. To steal a line from Shakespeare, it's "sound and fury, signifying nothing". It allows people to feel good that they're "bringing attention to the issue", when all it really is is self-important dick-waggling Protesting isn't about winning people to your cause, it's about disrupting normal life for people until they give you what you want. Maybe you think that sounds childish but it's how protest movements work. You have to show the people with the power to change things that you're going to make life difficult for them until they do. Like, how do you think winning hearts and minds is going to work? You get enough people to agree that it's bad to bomb Palestinians... and then what? What do you do with that? Also probably not a great idea to say that the woman who lost 68 family members is just there for self-important dick-waggling.
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Nov 11, 2023 07:31
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James Garfield posted:I mean if you're just trying to get catharsis by yelling at someone you can yell at your representative, that's okay. If you want to change their mind about policy you should use techniques that sometimes work to change people's minds. Contacting your representative by any method that isn't face to face will be distilled down into data entry tallies by interns. Those tallies will then be compiled into a report that the representative might glance at one or twice a month. Maybe they'll have a separate spreadsheet cell to gauge how intensely people care about issues, as interpreted by an intern. Directly screaming at your rep while a loud groups protests outside on the other hand gets their attention and sticks with them. They are forced to hear all your points, even if they don't listen. Further you get the attention of all the rest of the reps who are going to be briefed on the angry mob interrupting the fancy dinners of the powerful. Further your dinner interrupting protest is almost certainly making the news, spreading your message even further. The only way your representative is ever going to listen to your voicemail or read your letter is either it's so persuasive you just convinced Ted Cruz to embrace Communism, or an intern felt it was a good encapsulation of an issue your rep was already looking to exploit for political gain.
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Nov 11, 2023 07:52
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Politicians got elected to be harassed. That is literally their job, to absorb the will of their constituents and turn that policy. Don't accept a rep who represents the opposite parties framing that you don't matter. Make it matter. Get in their face, preferably with a mob behind you.
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Nov 11, 2023 07:52
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The Lone Badger posted:It's drugs OP. 100% actually this, don't sleep on that we've got an advance preview of musk's total unravelling. feels like by this time next spring or summer we'll have had our first shot of him where we can say oh my guy here's clearly sporting some fancy ol ket legs at this gala, my man is goobered right off half a veterinarian's office over here i am almost completely convinced he's already years into compensating for really uncomfortable personal anxieties and complexes by being high way too long and often, and probably strung out deep and long enough sometimes to at least partially explain some of his absolute worst demands, commitments, and business decisions
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Nov 11, 2023 08:21
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PharmerBoy posted:I probably would have agreed until recently. In Mitt Romney's big "elder statesman" interview a month or two ago, he talked about members of the Republican party being afraid to take action against Trump for fear of the safety of their family from grass-roots crazies. That's a significantly higher level of pressure than what's going on here, but government officials aren't any more immune to disruption of their daily lives than they are immune to bribes. That's what Romney said, but honestly, I wouldn't trust it too far. His interview was obviously for the sake of his legacy, being given at the end of his political career, and thus he has a strong incentive to skew things. After all, Romney himself, despite his frequent criticisms of Trump, was quite happy to cozy up to Trump and shower him with praise when there was political gain to be had. After criticizing him throughout 2016, he was suddenly full of praise for Trump as long as there were cabinet seats open that he could potentially be picked to fill, and he worked hard to win Trump's endorsement for his Senate run. there's a much simpler explanation for the GOP being reluctant to take action against Trump: their base doesn't want them to, and GOP politicians who do act against Trump get voted out. Trump is popular among the base, so it's politically advantageous to support him. For Republicans, turning against him means abandoning their political careers, and few are willing to do that.
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Nov 11, 2023 08:55
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Nelson Mandingo posted:It was during the extended Israeli attacks on Lebanon. This is making me think of Regan as a human being, and I can't have that.
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Nov 11, 2023 09:22
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drilldo squirt posted:This is making me think of Regan as a human being, and I can't have that. Occasionally the mush brained ghoul had a humanising moment. Still awful, but helps to put in comparison with the people we have to deal with now.
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Nov 11, 2023 10:03
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James Garfield posted:I mean if you're just trying to get catharsis by yelling at someone you can yell at your representative, that's okay. If you want to change their mind about policy you should use techniques that sometimes work to change people's minds. Like giving them huge donations to their campaigns using your Super PAC!
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Nov 11, 2023 13:06
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Wow, the 5th Circuit is actually capable of producing a non-lovely opinionquote:Louisiana Must Finalize New Voting Map by January, Federal Appeals Court Says The panel was two G. W. Bush appointees and one Carter appointee. I assume the decision would be the opposite if it had been all Trump judges.
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Nov 11, 2023 14:11
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Josef bugman posted:Occasionally the mush brained ghoul had a humanising moment. Still awful, but helps to put in comparison with the people we have to deal with now. It's pretty important to remember that most lovely people in power actually believe that they are good people doing the right thing. e: As for how the anecdote relates to the current conflict, I think it's pretty clear Israel is not in the same collective state of mind they were in 1982, and that they see their current mission as much more existential than loving around with Lebanon a little bit, and so the tactic is kind of irrelevant to Biden's situation. If a pointed phone call was all it took to stop this war, it would be over, I assure you. Like, think US reaction to 1993 WTC bombing vs. 9/11. Misunderstood fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Nov 11, 2023 |
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Nov 11, 2023 16:24
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If Biden wanted to put actual pressure on Israel he could, instead of letting Blinken go out there talking about how there are no red lines while they pointedly refuse to call publicly for a ceasefire. He did it in 2021 and it worked, because at the end of the day Israel is a client state. Israel cannot do this without US backing.
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Nov 11, 2023 16:29
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I'm not saying that Biden is doing everything he could, just that it would take a lot more than that, and that the administration has gone far beyond that level of resistance Reagan showed. It's just not enough this time. He needs to do a lot more.
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Nov 11, 2023 16:34
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How much new foreign aid has the US sent since October 7th?
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