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Rukeli posted:Things can change. Back then Arab states were very weak. They're still not strong, but it's not as if one day in the future they can't get at least as strong as Israel. Warfare is also changing -- who would've guessed a few years back that the Ukrainian military was now tied with the Russian one? They're not "conspiring" against Israelis. Israel is not in any position of weakness in the region and will not be in the future. edit: this is so loving embarrassing https://x.com/Israel/status/1723759157960953981?s=20 Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Nov 12, 2023 |
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Nov 12, 2023 19:03
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Maybe I’ll ask my teachers at the Holocaust/genocide studies program I’m reading if there’s a historical precedent for combatants to hand out sexual assault cheat codes to their troops.
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Nov 12, 2023 20:18
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It was brought up in the other thread; it uses masculine versions of words for the Hebrew, and includes "put down your weapon"; likely out-of-context phrases for disarming IDF PoW's. I mean, maybe Hamas is secretly a Spartan homosexual sect of Islam that prioritizes raping soldiers, but I think the first option is more likely.
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Nov 12, 2023 20:24
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Rukeli posted:Things can change. Back then Arab states were very weak. They're still not strong, but it's not as if one day in the future they can't get at least as strong as Israel. Warfare is also changing -- who would've guessed a few years back that the Ukrainian military was now tied with the Russian one? So what? Because it's possible to imagine a situation in which Israel could hypothetically be at a potential military disadvantage sometime in the future if all its allies abandon it and all its enemies get a lot stronger, it's okay to for Israel to forcibly occupy and annex territory in order to either subjugate the populations or expel them completely? Are tens of thousands of dead Gazans and several million Palestinian refugees a fair price to pay so Israel can push the borders a few more miles away from Tel Aviv? If that's not what you're trying to say, then I'm not really sure why you're bringing this up at all. Basically, the problem I have with your framing here is that it's fundamentally Israel-centric. The long mutually-hostile relationship between Israel and its neighbors becomes "all those actors in the Middle East [...] who continue conspiring against Israelis", as if Israel has never done any conspiring of its own. You accuse the Arab states of spreading anti-Semitism, but are silent on the matter of Israel spreading anti-Arab and anti-Palestinian racism. It's a one-sided perspective where Israel are the protagonists of the story, where what they do is right and the other countries around them are unfairly victimizing them for no particular reason. The Arab states are not obligated to present their opposition to Israel's ethnic cleansing in the way that's most convenient for Israel, and Israel cannot use their actions as an excuse to continue the ethnic cleansing. The one and only thing that is worsening the Palestinians' situation is Israeli action. Israel may cite other things as justifications for the oppression they direct against Palestinians, but they are ultimately the ones deciding to engage in this oppression. And you already admit that those other things cannot justify what's going on here...which makes me wonder why you're bringing them up here at all.
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Nov 12, 2023 20:25
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Neurolimal posted:It was brought up in the other thread; it uses masculine versions of words for the Hebrew, and includes "put down your weapon"; likely out-of-context phrases for disarming IDF PoW's. There is also something off about these armed-to-the-teeth rapists who apparently are so culturally sensitive and anti-violence that they want to communicate with their victims in their native language to avoid misunderstandings or having to forcefully undress the victims before they rape them.
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Nov 12, 2023 20:38
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Groovelord Neato posted:The president of Israel held up a pristine copy of Mein Kampf claiming it came from a child's room in Gaza. They really are shameless. It's literally the same thing Russia did with Mein Kampf and Nazi flags (and copies of Sims 3) they allegedly found in "Azov neonazis hideouts" in Ukraine. How the gently caress is Israel getting away with this poo poo and why they aren't even trying to put up some credible propaganda.
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Nov 12, 2023 21:57
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Szarrukin posted:It's literally the same thing Russia did with Mein Kampf and Nazi flags (and copies of Sims 3) they allegedly found in "Azov neonazis hideouts" in Ukraine. How the gently caress is Israel getting away with this poo poo and why they aren't even trying to put up some credible propaganda. Actually it's incredibly different to that given Azov are neo-Nazis with Himmler's Black Sun right there on their logo. I have no idea if Russians planted stuff on them too, but it's not as if they're not reading Mein Kampf and waving Nazi flags. Obviously that's not the real reason Russians are invading, but Azov are Nazis
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Nov 12, 2023 22:33
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Szarrukin posted:It's literally the same thing Russia did with Mein Kampf and Nazi flags (and copies of Sims 3) they allegedly found in "Azov neonazis hideouts" in Ukraine. How the gently caress is Israel getting away with this poo poo and why they aren't even trying to put up some credible propaganda. Because they don’t have to. Western Media will present it as 100% fact at face value. Israel could put out a video of Netanyahu in a pair of groucho glasses, introducing himself as Mr.Hamas and talking about being excited for eating babies in Hebrew and western media would report on one of the vicious leaders of HAMAS caught on tape wanting to eat babies
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Nov 12, 2023 22:35
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Main Paineframe posted:So what? Because it's possible to imagine a situation in which Israel could hypothetically be at a potential military disadvantage sometime in the future if all its allies abandon it and all its enemies get a lot stronger, it's okay to for Israel to forcibly occupy and annex territory in order to either subjugate the populations or expel them completely? Are tens of thousands of dead Gazans and several million Palestinian refugees a fair price to pay so Israel can push the borders a few more miles away from Tel Aviv? If that's not what you're trying to say, then I'm not really sure why you're bringing this up at all. If you read my posts you'll see I was primarily talking about Iran and its proxies, not just the Arab neighbours of Israel. They are aggressive towards Israel not just because Israel abuses the rights of Palestinians or, in the case of countries not bordering Israel, because of something Israel did to them. P.s. Lebanon, Iraq, and Yemen, from where attacks have recently been launched against Israel, weren't so principally opposed to ethnic cleansing when they were kicking out indigenous Jews from their countries. Rukeli fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 12, 2023 22:52
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Groovelord Neato posted:The president of Israel held up a pristine copy of Mein Kampf claiming it came from a child's room in Gaza. They really are shameless.
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Nov 12, 2023 23:46
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Actually it's incredibly different to that given Azov are neo-Nazis with Himmler's Black Sun right there on their logo. I have no idea if Russians planted stuff on them too, but it's not as if they're not reading Mein Kampf and waving Nazi flags.
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Nov 13, 2023 00:57
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pumpinglemma posted:They definitely were literal neo-Nazis when they were formed, but I thought the Ukrainian government spent several years cleaning out as much of that rot as they could prior to the invasion, and that they’re now mostly conscripts and volunteers who got randomly assigned there? There's a separate Ukraine thread but the part that matters of the comparison before was a single incident earlier in the conflict in 2022 where Russia claimed to have uncovered a specific "secret Nazi Azov terrorist spy group" in Russia or occupied Ukraine or something and their proof was obviously fabricated because when Russia displayed personal effects of the guy they arrested who was supposedly on a clandestine mission and was apparently carrying with him at all times included a giant Nazi Germany flag, a copy of Mein Kampf, a framed portrait of Bandera, a Hitler t-shirt and three DVD copies of The Sims 3 (presumably some lazy FSB agent was told to get "three SIMs" and had a hilariously misinterpretation). That poster is basically saying it's an equally absurd attempt to plant evidence. Mr Luxury Yacht fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 13, 2023 01:43
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pumpinglemma posted:They definitely were literal neo-Nazis when they were formed, but I thought the Ukrainian government spent several years cleaning out as much of that rot as they could prior to the invasion, and that they’re now mostly conscripts and volunteers who got randomly assigned there? Yeah, IIRC they were originally founded as a neo-Nazi militia, but nearly a decade ago the state incorporated them as an actual division of the national guard and basically all of the original founding members were either forced out of the military or killed in recent years, especially in Mariupol last year.
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Nov 13, 2023 02:28
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So the alleged militant(s) that called back home to tell mom how many jews they killed, evidence? I’m seeing it brought up all over but without any proof.
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Nov 13, 2023 02:31
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Fuschia tude posted:Yeah, IIRC they were originally founded as a neo-Nazi militia, but nearly a decade ago the state incorporated them as an actual division of the national guard and basically all of the original founding members were either forced out of the military or killed in recent years, especially in Mariupol last year. My understanding is that both Azov and Hamas founded as explicitly kill-the-Jews militias but then in the course of adapting to the opportunities available to them they ended up dropping the stuff about Jews in favor of more broadly agreeable nationalism/populism. Sort of like the right-wing version of any organization that starts out as explicitly Marxist and later on finds itself to be just generally "progressive." Shaocaholica posted:So the alleged militant(s) that called back home to tell mom how many jews they killed, evidence? I’m seeing it brought up all over but without any proof. It was in the footage that Israel showed journalists. the state's not above lying about it, but I haven't seen anyone suggest that, compared to the "intercepted phone calls" which are always immediately called out as extremely bizarre and implausible. Here's a description from the Atlantic, I trust it's an accurate summary of what was shown to the reporters. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/why-israeli-officials-screened-footage-hamas-attack/675735/ quote:The clip is just a phone call—placed by a terrorist to his family back in Gaza. He tells his father that he is calling from a Jewish woman’s phone. (The phone recorded the call.) He tells his father that his son is now a “hero” and that “I killed 10 Jews with my own hands.” And he tells his family, about a dozen times, that they should open up WhatsApp on his phone, because he has sent photographs to prove what he has done. “Put on Mom!” he says. “Your son is a hero!” I think it goes without saying that calls like this were made, just like it goes without saying that some IDF soldiers call home to brag about the people they've killed. There hasn't been a war in history where soldiers didn't brag to their friends and families about their body counts. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 13, 2023 02:38
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I think it goes without saying that calls like this were made, just like it goes without saying that some IDF soldiers call home to brag about the people they've killed. There hasn't been a war in history where soldiers didn't brag to their friends and families about their body counts.
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Nov 13, 2023 02:55
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pumpinglemma posted:They definitely were literal neo-Nazis when they were formed, but I thought the Ukrainian government spent several years cleaning out as much of that rot as they could prior to the invasion, and that they’re now mostly conscripts and volunteers who got randomly assigned there? Not even Bellingcat and the Atlantic Council back that ridiculous fiction. All they did was split into an armed wing and a political wing, everyone involved is still a Nazi. https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/the-azov-regiment-has-not-depoliticized/ ---- So does Israel surveill the phone calls of not just all Gazans, but just happened to also be surveilling the murdered Jewish woman? It's a ridiculous story, of course it's fake. WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 13, 2023 03:02
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Israel is currently trying to paint Gazans as literally nazi isis for a very hard to discern reason.
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Nov 13, 2023 03:29
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Israel is currently trying to paint Gazans as literally nazi isis for a very hard to discern reason. It's not a hard to discern reason. WhiskeyWhiskers posted:So does Israel surveill the phone calls of not just all Gazans, but just happened to also be surveilling the murdered Jewish woman? That's not what Israel is saying, they're saying the phone automatically recorded the call. Which is unusual, but when you have over 1000 casualties then you'll have at least one one-in-a-thoussnd situation.
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Nov 13, 2023 03:31
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Civilized Fishbot posted:That's not what Israel is saying, they're saying the phone automatically recorded the call. Which is unusual, but when you have over 1000 casualties then you'll have at least one one-in-a-thoussnd situation. Sure they're faking other phone calls, but this one incident which also requires an incredibly strange coincidence just has to be true! You lot are loving marks. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 13, 2023 03:37
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Israel is currently trying to paint Gazans as literally nazi isis for a very hard to discern reason. It helps justify their genocide.
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Nov 13, 2023 03:44
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Rukeli posted:If you read my posts you'll see I was primarily talking about Iran and its proxies, not just the Arab neighbours of Israel. They are aggressive towards Israel not just because Israel abuses the rights of Palestinians or, in the case of countries not bordering Israel, because of something Israel did to them. Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians does not have to be the only reason for other states in the reason to be hostile toward Israel. Though it's interesting how you changed "ethnic cleansing of Palestnians" to "abuses the rights of Palestinians" when responding to my post, as well as changing "mutually-hostile relationship" to "aggressive towards Israel". Given that the main thrust of my argument was a commentary on your tendency to water down and minimize the bad things Israel has done (and is doing right now) while heavily emphasizing bad things other countries have done towards Israel, it seems that my point didn't get through.
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Nov 13, 2023 05:16
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Groovelord Neato posted:The president of Israel held up a pristine copy of Mein Kampf claiming it came from a child's room in Gaza. They really are shameless. This particular lie is not only facially absurd and implausible but it is completely irrelevant what books were in anybody's possession as it doesn't justify ethnically cleansing Gaza of all Palestinians or sympathetic journalist.
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Nov 13, 2023 05:59
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It's not just the possession. It's a copy with highlighting and additional notes on post-its. It's to give the impression the owner was deeply studying mein kampf to learn how to holocaust the Jews. It fails the second it's interrogated. The post-It when translated is a few lines about Hitlers early life lifted from the English language Wikipedia article about him.
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Nov 13, 2023 10:34
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Main Paineframe posted:Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians does not have to be the only reason for other states in the reason to be hostile toward Israel. Though it's interesting how you changed "ethnic cleansing of Palestnians" to "abuses the rights of Palestinians" when responding to my post, as well as changing "mutually-hostile relationship" to "aggressive towards Israel". Given that the main thrust of my argument was a commentary on your tendency to water down and minimize the bad things Israel has done (and is doing right now) while heavily emphasizing bad things other countries have done towards Israel, it seems that my point didn't get through. I think your usage of "mutually-hostile relationship" is a way of minimizing unprovoked aggression from states that don't border Israel but still conspire against this country. Iran had good relations with Israel until Islamic loonies took over and started their holy war against Israel. I also don't see what Israel has done to Yemen and Iraq to deserve getting missiles launched at them from there. But the original point that I made, which you seem to have missed, was simply that I don't think such hostility is helping the Palestinian cause at all. Maybe you disagree with me there, maybe you legitimately think Israelis are going to vote for left wing parties that want to stop oppression and ethnic cleansing because some Iranians, Iraqis and Yemenites hate them and attack them under the banner of "Death to Israel, Curse on the Jews, Victory to Islam".
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Nov 13, 2023 10:55
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They play with fire, claiming Palestinians love Mein Kampf, because if there’s one thing that could make the American right switch sides in this conflict…
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Nov 13, 2023 11:37
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Even at face value owning and notating a copy of mein kampf doesn't mean you agree with it. It's a worthy book to read in a 'know your enemy' way. I skimmed an ebook of it before, was interesting how Hitler stated himself the only non degenerate country which he wanted his Nazi state to emulate, was the USA. He really admired their, at the time, racial citizenship laws, only white immigrants were allowed to become US citizens. The owner could even conceivably be using it for a comparative study of Nazi Germany and Israel. What they left out was the corkboard with a picture of Hitler and his biography, born in badao, raised in Liz. And a red thread connected to Netyanahu with his bio, born in Tel Aviv, raised in Philadelphia. Underneath it says Netyanahu is Hitler 2 circled in red.
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Nov 13, 2023 12:13
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First Norwegian death in Gaza - Ghadah Hassan Abudaqah (48) was in Palestine for the first time in 4 years to take care of her sick father. 12 people died when the building they were in was bombed in Southern Gaza, her father, father-in-law, brother-in-law and nephew were among the dead
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Nov 13, 2023 12:26
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If a copy of Mein Kampf means holocaust 2, I'm going to have to seriously reassess my view of the old dear who works at the local public library.
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Nov 13, 2023 12:26
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Rukeli posted:I think your usage of "mutually-hostile relationship" is a way of minimizing unprovoked aggression from states that don't border Israel but still conspire against this country. Iran had good relations with Israel until Islamic loonies took over and started their holy war against Israel. I also don't see what Israel has done to Yemen and Iraq to deserve getting missiles launched at them from there. This doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian territories is Iran's fault, despite the fact that it predates Iran's hostility to Israel (and, for that matter, even predates the establishment of Israel itself)? I just don't get it. We're here talking about ethnic cleansing, and you're over here trying to excuse and justify it by saying that other countries in the region are mean to Israel without sufficient reason. Yes, I know you said quite specifically that nothing justifies or excuses the war crimes. But even though you say that they're not justifiable or excusable, you're still fairly clearly justifying and excusing them. Iran does not share any culpability in the destruction of Gaza. It is not Iran's fault that Israel won't stop engaging in apartheid or massacring civilians.
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Nov 13, 2023 15:35
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Rukeli posted:I think your usage of "mutually-hostile relationship" is a way of minimizing unprovoked aggression from states that don't border Israel but still conspire against this country. Iran had good relations with Israel until Islamic loonies took over and started their holy war against Israel. I also don't see what Israel has done to Yemen and Iraq to deserve getting missiles launched at them from there. You dont understand why Iran was pro Israel when they were controlled by a western backed dictatorship?
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Nov 13, 2023 15:39
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This came up in my feed, and I thought it was a pretty good primer for people unaware of how Palestinians under Israel's rule live; it focuses primarily on Palestinians/Arabs live in Israel "proper" and the West Bank. Flashes through its sources a little too fast but still pretty solid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBHAitSKtVs [Thumbnail references Amy Schumer melting down and harassing actresses in their DM's] Mainly sharing because I feel like a lot of more Moderate, Unengaged, & Israeli folks assume that Palestinians who give up hopes of their own state and try to integrate into Israel have it just fine, and therefore it's unreasonable that Palestinians & Arab states care so much about Palestine. Why can't they just accept peace?
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Nov 13, 2023 15:49
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Main Paineframe posted:This doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian territories is Iran's fault, despite the fact that it predates Iran's hostility to Israel (and, for that matter, even predates the establishment of Israel itself)? I just don't get it. We're here talking about ethnic cleansing, and you're over here trying to excuse and justify it by saying that other countries in the region are mean to Israel without sufficient reason. No, I have not excused or justified ethnic cleansing or blamed it on Iran, you haven't read me correctly. I've been saying Iran's hostility has been counterproductive to the Palestinian cause. punishedkissinger posted:You dont understand why Iran was pro Israel when they were controlled by a western backed dictatorship? Iran-Israel relations weren't that bad before the western backed dictatorship either (1947 to 1953). The fact remains that Iran started aggression against Israel out of the blue right after they became an Islamic dictatorship, and it continues to this day.
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Nov 13, 2023 16:54
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Rukeli posted:Iran-Israel relations weren't that bad before the western backed dictatorship either (1947 to 1953). The fact remains that Iran started aggression against Israel out of the blue right after they became an Islamic dictatorship, and it continues to this day. When it was a western-backed "constitutional" monarchy relations were better yeah
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Nov 13, 2023 17:08
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punishedkissinger posted:When it was a western-backed "constitutional" monarchy relations were better yeah Even under Mosaddegh they were better.
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Nov 13, 2023 17:24
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The IDF continues to shell and bomb the hospitals in Gaza https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/13/israel-hamas-war-live-gazas-two-largest-hospitals-shut-amid-nonstop-raids The objectives of this are pretty clear; by being able to silence the hospitals, they can hide the death toll and war crimes better. They are also going after the Health Minister of Gaza, since he is a hamas member, his murder will also silence the war crimes easier for Israel. Things are about to get a lot more bleak before they get better for the Palestinians. Its getting noticeably more difficult to get accurate information, even from the Palestinians within Gaza that are able to provide updates on social media.
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Nov 13, 2023 17:33
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Rukeli posted:Even under Mosaddegh they were better. I think most people would agree that having a country run by fundamentalist zealots is bad not only for their own country but for all of their neighbors. Like how Israel is run by Netanyahu.
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Nov 13, 2023 17:33
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The IDF have shared a video that they claim shows Hamas militants attacking an Israeli tank from the entrance of the Al-Quds hospital. https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1699881898-idf-releases-footage-of-hamas-firing-rpg-from-gaza-city-hospital quote:According to the Israeli military's statement, "the soldiers identified a terrorist squad with two RPG launchers amongst the civilians. During the exchange of fire, civilians were seen leaving the hospital building, and other terrorists who came out of adjacent buildings hid among them and joined the attempted attack." The video they shared doesn't seem to show that or that 'terrorists [...] returned into the hospital after the clash', however. With tanks so close to the hospital itself it's not really that surprising that they are attacked by someone who is also close to the hospital, and if they really were inside the building, I imagine the IDF would be able to provide more convincing footage.
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Nov 13, 2023 17:35
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Almost every time I open YouTube, I get a video among Shorts about how great IDF soldiers are. I don't watch much Shorts but the rest of the suggestions mostly do follow my interests. I never watched anything related to this war on YouTube and I never get war-related recommendations elsewhere on YouTube. So this makes me think it's paid promotion by Israel. Is that even allowed, putting "ads" concealed as organic search results..?
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Nov 13, 2023 17:41
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Neurolimal posted:This came up in my feed, and I thought it was a pretty good primer for people unaware of how Palestinians under Israel's rule live; it focuses primarily on Palestinians/Arabs live in Israel "proper" and the West Bank. Flashes through its sources a little too fast but still pretty solid. Yeah, I don't think anyone should trust a YouTube channel with Pepes gunning down crying Wojaks with the title, "How Iraqis got so good at smoking American soldiers." Doctor Malaver posted:Almost every time I open YouTube, I get a video among Shorts about how great IDF soldiers are. I don't watch much Shorts but the rest of the suggestions mostly do follow my interests. I never watched anything related to this war on YouTube and I never get war-related recommendations elsewhere on YouTube. So this makes me think it's paid promotion by Israel. Is that even allowed, putting "ads" concealed as organic search results..? It's easier than that. You just need people to drive engagement and it'll push it to more people. Think Swifties and BTS. ummel fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 13, 2023 17:42
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