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Super Waffle posted:Unpopular opinion: I love blast templates and the scatter mechanic and wish they would come back to 40k playing one single game where they matter is the best antidote to this sickness
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Nov 12, 2023 23:33
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Cease to Hope posted:playing one single game where they matter is the best antidote to this sickness Agreed, it is my sole complaint with Epic: Armageddon.
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Nov 12, 2023 23:52
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Is the DS8 turret a better choice than a Pulse Rifle Fire Warrior? I’m not good at math
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Nov 13, 2023 00:24
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Hey, sorry to distract from the current convo, (but to be more on-topic, yes blast templates are very lame) however I'm just wondering if I could get some input on a team to bring into a local BB2 league's final season. I was originally confident I would go for my orcs, but they copped a lot of injuries right at the end of their season, so I'm not 100% anymore. (Plus a black orc died, so I have a fresh one) Anyway, here are the teams in case someone could spare a moment to help tip me off the fence: The Twenty Minuters, my Chaos Dwarf team:  Or Cafe de Isengard, my Orc team:  Now, I'm not 100% certain of what I'll face, but it'll doubtless include a solid Chaos team, one of those undead teams that always look the same to me (sorry Leperflesh  ), a skaven team, probably an orc team or maybe two, maybe another chaos dwarf team, plus 1-2 elf teams. So a fair assortment overall.I'm very torn. I feel Chaos Dwarves would be the safer pick, and the centaurs might make it the best pick against the skaven team. But I dunno, they're definitely slower to progress than the orcs, so I may end up being outpaced in most match-ups
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Nov 13, 2023 02:09
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Major Isoor posted:Hey, sorry to distract from the current convo, (but to be more on-topic, yes blast templates are very lame) however I'm just wondering if I could get some input on a team to bring into a local BB2 league's final season. I was originally confident I would go for my orcs, but they copped a lot of injuries right at the end of their season, so I'm not 100% anymore. (Plus a black orc died, so I have a fresh one) I’d agree the Chaos Dwarfs would be the ‘safer’ pick, but the Orcs give you more movement overall. How many games in the season? Any opportunities to recycle some of your more injured players? That would tip me to the orcs - the big thing I see here is having better mobility along with the hitting power. You’re also a bit more predictable with the Chorfs, I guess? Mino either has to be in contact or your blitz, which limits some of your positioning, and while all that Tackle/Guard is appealing versus Skaven and Elf Bullshit, I like the look of the Orcs. On a similar note, I am now 5-0-0 this season with my Imperial Nobility, and I finally feel like I’m getting the hang of playing them. Lost a Bodyguard last game unfortunately, but my Ogre is on the way to getting his first skill and both Blitzers have turned out nicely (Dodge/Tackle and Dodge/Pro so far). Decided to random Passing on a Thrower and ended up with Dump Off, which I think will be an entertaining option for even more frustrating defensive gimmicks.
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Nov 13, 2023 04:34
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Hedningen posted:I’d agree the Chaos Dwarfs would be the ‘safer’ pick, but the Orcs give you more movement overall. How many games in the season? Any opportunities to recycle some of your more injured players? That would tip me to the orcs - the big thing I see here is having better mobility along with the hitting power. Yeah, seems reasonable. The season will only be five games long though, so not super long. I could potentially ditch a player and rehire, although it's unlikely they'll get far before the end of season. e.g. Manflesh on the orc team could be rehired, although losing guard would sting. I've got a couple of good blitzers on that team though, so I might be able to get by with a weakling guard, maybe? I dunno - I haven't played too much lately, so I'm feeling very rusty Also, nice job with your own season! Very good results, there
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Nov 13, 2023 05:02
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Eediot Jedi posted:Also if anyone finds an epic price list leak feel free to post.  Anything not listed here is direct-only from the GW site, including the tiles, bases, and unit army cards. Also USD: 
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Nov 13, 2023 15:00
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Hedningen posted:I’d agree the Chaos Dwarfs would be the ‘safer’ pick, but the Orcs give you more movement overall. How many games in the season? Any opportunities to recycle some of your more injured players? That would tip me to the orcs - the big thing I see here is having better mobility along with the hitting power. 5-0-0 with any team is not 'getting the hang of them' status lol Unless your opponents are all utterly dreadful I guess 
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Nov 13, 2023 15:09
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Super Waffle posted:Unpopular opinion: I love blast templates and the scatter mechanic and wish they would come back to 40k Not unpopular.
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Nov 13, 2023 16:39
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https://www.warhammer-community.com...reaming-skulls/ New shooting phase article for the Old World. It's not as exciting as the movement phase, but there are still some nuggets buried in there.
Oh yeah, and templates confirmed 
Safety Factor fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 13, 2023 16:41
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Safety Factor posted:7+ to hit (and worse) is still in the game so is 1+ and better and i feel like that might be a better solution than GW's patchwork of sustained hits and rerolls and such but I think also the overcomplication is the point
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Nov 13, 2023 17:35
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Safety Factor posted:
Empire get (or did in 6th edition) 'full plate armour' which was a special armour that gave 4+ save, and Chaos gets it's Chaos Armour for a 4+ save. (and can be worn by wizards) Did these fan rules just give those kind of armours to every army?
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Nov 13, 2023 17:49
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I remain eternally salty that orcs couldn't get heavy armour
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Nov 13, 2023 17:58
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LashLightning posted:Empire get (or did in 6th edition) 'full plate armour' which was a special armour that gave 4+ save, and Chaos gets it's Chaos Armour for a 4+ save. (and can be worn by wizards) Light Armor - 6+ Medium Armor - 5+ Heavy Armor - 4+ Full Plate - 3+ That 3+ bracket would probably make some things too tough, but I like the light/medium/heavy set up because heavy armor varies wildly between models as-is. On a dwarf warrior it's chainmail and on a longbeard or hammerer it's like scale mail and plate. Having that middle tier would let them differentiate between the two and having a little better armor on your elites is always good. But hey, it's not a thing so I'm not going to worry about it.
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Nov 13, 2023 18:12
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Vortexes are cool.
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Nov 13, 2023 18:55
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Safety Factor posted:https://www.warhammer-community.com...reaming-skulls/ Going to bust out my ancient Battle Magic box with the Gork's Foot and Vermantide templates 
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Nov 13, 2023 19:19
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If they don't bring back the Foot of Gork template I'm gonna be so mad.
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Nov 13, 2023 19:26
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Squibsy posted:5-0-0 with any team is not 'getting the hang of them' status lol They’re pretty good players overall, and matchups weren’t awful in most cases (Shambling Undead, Redrafted Chaos with a Block/Claw/Pro Minotaur, Ogre, Shambling Undead, and NuAmazon) but it’s a matter of understanding how the team runs, I guess? Knowing how to adjust to situations without taking too long to think about it, optimizing player placement for shenanigans, and having a good idea of how to perform on offense and defense is what I consider to be “getting the hang of” - Nobility make a ton of sense on defense thanks to being a remarkably good defensive team in the early and mid-season, but figuring out their offense has taken me a while because while a slow advance towards a breakaway is nice, I just don’t really have how to so so internalized like I would with goblins. Most of the above have been 1-0 victories, a couple of 2-0 wins, and a single 2-1 where dice were unfortunate for me.
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Nov 13, 2023 19:33
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xtothez posted:
lol oh yeah, I was starting to think about being interested in a new version of epic but now I remembered why I wouldn't be Safety Factor posted:https://www.warhammer-community.com...reaming-skulls/ Bleh. I never liked 8th edition shooting rules and it seems like they're going right back to basically the same extra fiddly nonsense. "To shoot, a model must have line of sight to its target and you can’t split fire – so in some cases, not every member of a unit can let loose." So, we're measuring LOS for individual models even though it's a rank and file unit maneuver game. This was always lousy, loving around with laser pointers and poo poo to decide if five guys can see or only four. It's way better if you just say something like "if at least half the frontage can see they all shoot" or similar. Do we measure LOS from base? From the actual physical model? Are we getting small penalties or bonuses for how tightly packed we packed our units? Are we loving around with several different sizes of movement trays in order to minmax frontages? We're also still doing the old school one roll to hit and another to wound and then armor rolls and then ward saves as well. This is all very unnecessary. You can math out what the actual chances are for a shot to wound an enemy unit and reduce it to a single roll and save a ton of time and fiddliness for the game. Lots of tabletop war games do this. If a unit has magic poo poo and great armor just give it a higher defense value, you don't have to call it "Toughness." "It wouldn’t be Warhammer without a saving throw" is exactly the sort of sacred cow nonsense that holds games back from getting better. What makes it Warhammer is the flavor of the armies and units, not rolling five times to get the result of a single unit's combat action this turn. In a lot of cases shooting is a hell of a lot of dice rolls to inflict somewhere between zero and three casualties. Saw this a lot with skeleton archers in 8th edition. BS2, strength 3 bows, 6 points per model. The only thing worse was skeleton horse archers, with the same statline on a horse but 17 points per model, I had a bunch in a box that just never saw play because they were so insanely overcosted and terrible. If they're still similar statline it's another case of 5+ 4+ plus armor and ward saves, which is poo poo. It's bad against unarmored chaff like skavenslaves and worthless against any unit with some armor. At least tomb kings had chariots in the core unit list so you could dump all the chaff, but it sucks a lot to have boxes and boxes of skeletons you don't play with because they're so awful.
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Nov 13, 2023 19:38
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I wonder what a merger of Wood Elves and Khemri might look like.
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Nov 13, 2023 19:41
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Undead elves? Add in some swamp things, vine men and burnt out tree husks as tree men and skelly elfs, yeah cool
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Nov 13, 2023 19:44
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Leperflesh posted:
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Nov 13, 2023 20:02
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xtothez posted:
Whelp, I'll grab the starter for the rules but some of those prices  Happy to have 3 3d printers. They all go brrrrrr Seriously. A box of Rhinos for 50 bucks? Wtf!?!? I can print a full plate for less than a dollar. And yes, bring back templates!! I played 4th through 7th edition, hated 8th edition and Age of Sigmar was such a slap in the face at launch it took me years to so much as glance at the game again.
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Nov 13, 2023 20:39
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I'm looking forward to teaching my friends to hate repeater crossbows on a hill again. Archery has always been low pay-off unless you have a special gimmick or lean deep into it. But sometimes even 3 casualties can force a morale check, which is still a better utility to have than not.
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Nov 13, 2023 20:40
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Yeah it's not that they're doing nothing, it's the value per point of model and also value per models I had to buy assemble and paint. Which is just a subcategory of a larger balance issue that I am holding my breath that they've addressed with this new refresh of the game, I suppose, but it stands out to me because of the mechanic: roll dice, then roll some more dice that reduce how much you got, then more dice which further reduce what you got, then maybe two more times. It's a mechanic that makes it very very difficult to get a great result, because of a very punishing probability curve, and it tempts the rules-writers to make special rules that avoid specific rolls (e.g. this weapon is so powerful that it ignores armor saves) which in turn add complexity just to avoid the complexity that was put in place up front. The problems with Warhammer Fantasy weren't only huge numbers of models on the table: another big one was that a six turn game could take four hours to play. I liked to engage with deep tactics, that's cool and fun: I didn't like just pointlessly going through a six step process, looking something up for each step sometimes, to do something that can be handled just as well with a two step process.
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Nov 13, 2023 20:58
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Xlorp posted:I wonder what a merger of Wood Elves and Khemri might look like.  Leperflesh posted:The problems with Warhammer Fantasy weren't only huge numbers of models on the table: another big one was that a six turn game could take four hours to play. I liked to engage with deep tactics, that's cool and fun: I didn't like just pointlessly going through a six step process, looking something up for each step sometimes, to do something that can be handled just as well with a two step process. conquest has two step hit resolution, alternating activation, rank and flank where a big unit is six stands, and the coolest gd deployment phase ever, Just Sayin Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 13, 2023 21:00
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xtothez posted:
Thank you and oof.
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Nov 13, 2023 21:20
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Leperflesh posted:lol oh yeah, I was starting to think about being interested in a new version of epic but now I remembered why I wouldn't be Why are you surprised? 40k still relies on buckets of D6 rolls for combat, with much the same result most of the time. 40k and WFB rules have always kinda sucked.
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Nov 13, 2023 21:38
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Every sentient tree is possessed by a dead wood elf's spirit, like Space Eldar spirit stones. Humans can't possess trees, but they can possess skeletons and statuary. All very spooky.
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Nov 13, 2023 21:43
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Eh, the hit/wound/save system actually grew on me. I think the difference is to look at it all as normalizing the results with bulk. So even if I roll 60 dice, it takes seconds to remove "3 or under" results and reroll the remainder, removing "4 or under" and then tell you that I've done 11 wounds or whatever. It's all pattern recognition and you do it on autopilot with some familiarity. But when it's presented as 100+ rolls to remove five models, it sounds way more onerous than it actually is. We're never stopping to consider the results of each individual roll; I just do one count after wounds and you do one after saves. It's not for everybody, but it's definitely got its fans.
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Nov 13, 2023 22:14
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Being tied to d6s means there's such a narrow range of possible results, I guess rolling poo poo-tons of dice is one way of creating a situation where you can have interesting outliers - I should have only achieved 5 successes out of 50 attempts but instead I achieved 10, or 0, and the game's course pivoted based on that. Of course using dice with more than 6 sides opens up all-new  but it does seem like it'd make it easier to cover a range of outcomes such as you might expect when a militiaman with a spear tries to take on A Literal God.
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Nov 13, 2023 22:26
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Rolling fistfuls of dice at once has become a selling point of Warhammer, so it's unlikely to go away even though it is actually a hindrance to actually playing the game.
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Nov 13, 2023 22:31
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The number of dice, the number of rolls, and the number of modifiers on all of the perimeters involved make D6 work really well for consistency that still allows for big whiffs or hits. The D6 system is almost the only thing GW does well mechanically (it's the balancing of all the aforementioned things that's the issue).
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Nov 13, 2023 22:31
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In this case for shooting, it says that most of the time they can only ever shoot once, and normally only the front row can shoot.
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Nov 13, 2023 22:35
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moths posted:But when it's presented as 100+ rolls to remove five models, it sounds way more onerous than it actually is. We're never stopping to consider the results of each individual roll; I just do one count after wounds and you do one after saves. filtering successes out of a mixed pool of dice is probably the biggest time waster imo. i should get some yahtzee cups for 40K
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Nov 13, 2023 23:00
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Fantasy was at its best when you were throwing like 10 dice max at a time. The whole thing where you were throwing buckets of dice was more when 7th started powercreeping statlines so if your dudes didn't have at least two attacks or shots each they were not worth using and then 8th went all in with mega huge units and three to four ranks being able to fight.
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Nov 13, 2023 23:12
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The start of a 10mm goblins army! I always thought the old goblin and orc lines were really cool as a kid and decided to finally enjoy some of my own. These are from Green Skin Miniatures, printed on Mars 3 Pro.
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Nov 13, 2023 23:35
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goodness posted:The start of a 10mm goblins army! I always thought the old goblin and orc lines were really cool as a kid and decided to finally enjoy some of my own. These are from Green Skin Miniatures, printed on Mars 3 Pro. 1. these look excellent, that old red era HM look is so good at smaller scales 2. i think what made those old trolls so expressive was their big rangy bodies and expressive oversized hands. those are hands to grab and throttle and twist. and unlike so many overmuscled or overdetailed monsters, they look mean and hungry.
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Nov 13, 2023 23:48
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Tiny Chalupa posted:Whelp, I'll grab the starter for the rules but some of those prices Yeeeah, GW wrecking Legions out of the gate on price.
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Nov 14, 2023 05:40
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Crackbone posted:Why are you surprised? 40k still relies on buckets of D6 rolls for combat, with much the same result most of the time. Not really surprised, just disappointed. Also I don't play 40k and haven't since a game or two in the late 1980s so I didn't know they're still doing that in 40k either. Kill all sacred cows IMO.
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Nov 14, 2023 06:04
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