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Three Olives posted:I get that I have a reputation of being a snobby bitch but you are losing if you arguing that gas pumps aren't loving disgusting and inconvenient in every possible way. I'm team Three Olives here. Covid made me pay more attention to the shared surfaces we all touch, and gas pumps are indeed loving gross. Lots of people disregard all the annoying ways ICE cars waste your time because that's the way it's always been. Getting ripped off when getting an oil change is another thing I can do without. Trying to charge me to replace an oil plug THEY stripped or a tire rotation they physically cannot do are just a couple of things I've had to fight through in recent memory.
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Nov 13, 2023 01:38
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Gas stoves are proven to be bad as heck — good luck prying it from people culturally attached to it — but I rather doubt it’s similar to gas heating.
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Nov 13, 2023 01:39
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QuarkJets posted:Cleaning gutters and raking leaves aren't bad either, but if you told me "hey how about if I raked these leaves for you" I'd say "hell yeah sounds good that's an extra 20 minutes watching some big bouncing anime titties on the tv for me yee haw" not "well actually raking isn't that bad" Ok now do public charging. Or is that fine because you can just sit in your car watching anime porn or whatever youd be doing anyway
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Nov 13, 2023 01:42
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Vegetable posted:Gas stoves are proven to be bad as heck — good luck prying it from people culturally attached to it — but I rather doubt it’s similar to gas heating. I’ll take the asthma over any electric stove I’ve had to put up with in my life tbh
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Nov 13, 2023 01:45
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Induction is better than gas
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Nov 13, 2023 01:47
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Vegetable posted:Gas stoves are proven to be bad as heck — good luck prying it from people culturally attached to it — but I rather doubt it’s similar to gas heating. From that same article posted above, not exactly a study but: quote:Jackson said that while other appliances such as furnaces, water heaters and fireplaces burn gas, most — unlike stoves — are required to be vented outside. And from the blog linked in the article quote:Shortly after the audit I sent some of the data from my tests to Josiah Kephart, an environmental epidemiologist who studies this stuff for a living. In an email he wrote, “I would say you’ve got a pretty big NO2 problem. Your daily averages are mostly hovering around 25ppb, which is double the [WHO] daily guideline.” Then he wrote something that really stuck with me: “What happens ALL the time is someone actually tests indoor NO2 from gas appliances, and industry or other folks say ‘Well your ventilation must be messed up’ or in your case ‘Oh you must have spillage from the furnace.’ There are constantly folks who treat this with a hint of blaming the individual homeowner dismissing this as the exception (without evidence).”
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Nov 13, 2023 01:51
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Infinotize posted:Ok now do public charging. Or is that fine because you can just sit in your car watching anime porn or whatever youd be doing anyway Public charging is not a thing! To my point, this is the thing that is so infuriating about EV messaging, you come home, plug in your car, maybe every day if you are using 120V, maybe every couple of days/weeks with 240v and you are FINE. My god, it's like trying to explain to people why making your bed and doing the dishes every night isn't harder than living in filth.
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Nov 13, 2023 01:59
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Infinotize posted:Ok now do public charging. Or is that fine because you can just sit in your car watching anime porn or whatever youd be doing anyway I do it like 3 times a year. Edit: I was referring to public charging.
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Nov 13, 2023 02:00
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Squibbles posted:From that same article posted above, not exactly a study but: Gas furnace heat exchangers falling and leaking combustion products into the air has always been an irrational(?) fear of mine. Infinotize posted:Ok now do public charging. Or is that fine because you can just sit in your car watching anime porn or whatever youd be doing anyway I wore a flat spot in my Tesla's tires enthusiastically grabbing the big boobies with my steering wheel 
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Nov 13, 2023 02:08
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Three Olives posted:Public charging is not a thing! You, specifically, would probably have better luck "messaging" for EV adoption if you campaigned vehemently against it, Mr. "Hitler made some important contributions to medical science".
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Nov 13, 2023 02:23
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distortion park posted:If you take the best case numbers then it's like 1.8 Vs 0.9, but I doubt real life performance averages out at a cop of 3 and achieving those combined cycle numbers (Wikipedia says steady state performance is closer to 0.55). So it's pretty close and depends on your actual circumstances, probably not worth ripping out an existing system or worrying too much about. Don't get me wrong I love heat pumps, we have one for HVAC and have no gas supply! I would expect quite a bit better from heat pumps. Looking at these test reports, the good models manage COP 3 when temperature is -5°C or warmer and they manage COP 5 when it's +5°C. Best models manage COP 2 down to -30°C. And when those cost only about 2000€ there is not much reason to settle for subpar units. TheFluff posted:In cold climates what you want is district heating, ideally with cogeneration, that is you use the waste heat from power plants to heat water that in turn heats buildings. Even without cogeneration, district heating is generally the best option since heat generation benefits from economies of scale and one huge furnace with a very sophisticated exhaust gas management system is a lot less polluting than a ton of small furnaces with probably no exhaust gas management at all. Also, with district heating you can swap out the fuel source without having to rip out the infrastructure of an entire city in the process. There are also opportunities for recycling waste heat from industrial processes and facilities like data centers. It's pretty neat! The problem with district heating is that the network is so expensive. Several apartment buildings in Helsinki region have switched from district to ground source heat pumps to reduce heating costs. District heating was pretty obvious choice when you were using fossil fuel electrical plants in the city, they were a free source of heat, just install pipes. But what do you use as a source when you get rid of fossil fuels. Nuclear would be obvious alternative, but we are far from ready to install them at practical distance from district heating networks. Bio fuel could replace fossil, but the expense and transport inefficiencies are an obstacle. Large scale heat pumps are probably the best options and they can get the heat from multiple sources, sea, data centers, waste water treatment plants. But I'm doubtful about the efficiency benefit between house or building scale heat pump versus an industrial heat pump heating and pressurizing water above boiling point, then transporting it through tens of kilometers of underground piping.
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Nov 13, 2023 02:29
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Infinotize posted:Ok now do public charging. Or is that fine because you can just sit in your car watching anime porn or whatever youd be doing anyway It depends on the public charging A) Sitting in your car for 30 minutes while you wait to fast charge simply sucks as much as pumping gas B) Fast charging or L2 charging while you do something else is great, I have done a handful of Trader Joe's shopping trips while enjoying free fast charging. Our library has L2 charging. There's a big park nearby that has L2 charging. Our nearest movie theater has free L2 charging that turns off after 2 hours. C) Charging at work or at one of the rare apartment complexes that offer it is ideal The thread is very consistent in telling people that if you don't have the ability to charge at work or at home then EV ownership is not convenient, and that's the truth. Hopefully some day every parking lot will have a bunch of L2 charging spots. But if you can charge at home, that is strictly better than pumping gas.
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Nov 13, 2023 02:54
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Saukkis posted:The problem with district heating is that the network is so expensive. Several apartment buildings in Helsinki region have switched from district to ground source heat pumps to reduce heating costs. District heating was pretty obvious choice when you were using fossil fuel electrical plants in the city, they were a free source of heat, just install pipes. But what do you use as a source when you get rid of fossil fuels. Nuclear would be obvious alternative, but we are far from ready to install them at practical distance from district heating networks. Bio fuel could replace fossil, but the expense and transport inefficiencies are an obstacle. Large scale heat pumps are probably the best options and they can get the heat from multiple sources, sea, data centers, waste water treatment plants. But I'm doubtful about the efficiency benefit between house or building scale heat pump versus an industrial heat pump heating and pressurizing water above boiling point, then transporting it through tens of kilometers of underground piping. Yeah, the infrastructure is expensive, but I think there's a reasonable return on investment if you take climate effects into account. As far as fuels go, the answer is waste, as in you burn residential waste. There's a new plant in Copenhagen that does this extremely cleanly, I hear, but it's fairly common in Scandinavia in general (although it's often supplemented with biofuels, mostly wood pellets). I genuinely don't know about efficiencies of scale for heat pump facilities, but I do know that at least here in Stockholm we have what's claimed to be the world's largest heat pump facility (225 MW worth of heat pumps), and yep, it uses treated waste water as its heat source. It's been around since the 1980's and the cold side of the circuit is used too, for district cooling. Speaking of infrastructure though I know EV charging and residential solar is already starting to be a big challenge for the last-mile parts of the grid, so district heating is beneficial in that regard because it takes some load off the grid. By the way, for district heating you generally want lower temperatures in the distribution circuits because then you get lower heat losses (less heat leaks into the environment). The Stockholm system is the only one I'm familiar with and its hot water is distributed at 68°C (return temperature as low as you can make it, if it's below 40°C or so you get a cost reduction; if it's above 50°C you get a cost penalty because you're not using the heat delivered). TheFluff fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 13, 2023 02:55
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QuarkJets posted:But if you can charge at home, that is strictly better than pumping gas. Agreed, definitely the best of all worlds. The network systems are interesting. Theres a new development outside of Austin that has a networked geothermal source, and every house has a heat pump that taps into it: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/01/geothermal-powered-housing-development-saves-homeowners-big-bucks.html
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Nov 13, 2023 03:37
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Oh yeah, burned waste is a great replacement. But I think I have read news that there have been problems acquiring enough waste for the power plants. The temperature of district heating varies a lot. In the coldest weather it can be up to 115°C and in summer time it can get down to 65°C. I will never forget the news article about a woman who fell on a hole caused by a burst heating pipe and was cooked alive.
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Nov 13, 2023 03:40
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Spent a lot of time on Navy bases with cogen stations providing steam heat to all the buildings on site, of course those systems often date back to WWII, and have been improperly maintained, so you get sinkholes vomiting steam all over the place, which really adds to the overall asthetic of the place.
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Nov 13, 2023 04:44
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I have an 'instant' gas water heater and it kinda sucks - doesn't maintain a very even temperature and you need to run quite a bit of water through before it heats up. At least it's outside I guess. I'd like to replace it with an efficient electric water heater but I also have a gas hob which would need replacing at the same time - the per unit charge for gas here is fairly low, but the daily charge is high so it doesn't make sense to have a connection for just cooking. Also I did have a gas leak last year (right at the meter so fortunately nowhere near the house) and can confirm the smell was very noticeable.
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Nov 13, 2023 05:05
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I want to first say that the last few Three Olives posted:Stop telling people that EVs are going to save the environment, tell people you never have to touch a filthy gas pump again. I think you're square on, but within Automotive Insanity generally, and this thread specifically, this is not an effective message. cruft fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 13, 2023 05:08
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Interestingly, solar generation that's used at point of generation (e.g. charging your car with your own solar panels) actually helps with overall grid load and I imagine in the next few years some grid operators are going to push for more rooftop solar, particularly because they can offload the capex to the homeowner instead of paying for line upgrades themselves.
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Nov 13, 2023 05:38
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mysteryberto posted:Heatpimp water heaters can also have huge utility incentives. In Oregon I bought a Rheem 50 gallon hybrid heat pump water heater for only $400 from an energy shop my local power company partnered with. With the incentive it really changes the payback period. Was this recently? I also live in Oregon (Portland, my electric is PGE) and I would take this deal if it exists for me. Edit: Think I just found it. Pretty good deal. I'm gonna see if it works for my setup. grahm fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 13, 2023 05:58
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cruft posted:I think you're square on, but within Automotive Insanity generally, and this thread specifically, this is not an effective message. With complete understanding of the point you are trying to make, writ large, this is the US understanding of cars... They are terrible, they need so much participation just so you can go to your job to afford them, gas, tires, tune-ups, oil, insurance, etc, etc. Automotive Insanity generally, fine, you can have a hobby, you can enjoy inconvenient things, we have two cats that poo poo in a closet in our bathroom but my god just tell people you never have to touch a disgusting gas pump again if you don't want to.
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Nov 13, 2023 06:47
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Budget is dead-set on offsetting all the gas I don't use driving an EV, every time I fly for work I get a loving pickup, the smallest car they've rented me is a Taco. I just want a regular goddamn car. E: My company will not cover an EV rental.
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Nov 13, 2023 08:23
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cruft posted:I want to first say that the last few  in so far as the gas hate; I've been using a gas water heater, oven, and furnace for three decades and have never had a problem. I don't know anyone who has had a problem. The only times I read about how terrible they are is in the news or through studies.Gas is also the best way to cook food, electric is poo poo in comparison.
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Nov 13, 2023 08:43
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fondue posted:I've found it pretty Getting big “I don’t need to wear a mask I dont know anyone that died of covid anyway” vibes.
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Nov 13, 2023 11:29
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These cigarettes are fuckin' great! I've been smokin' em for 30 years and nothing bad has happened to me! The only time I hear anything negative is when I read "studies" that say they cause cancer *hack* *hack* *hack*
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Nov 13, 2023 11:38
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Chronojam posted:Unrelated: Somebody left my car in not-one-pedal mode with the parking brake off and that was sure a fun surprise when I shifted into reverse!!! JLR released an overnight update to the iPace that turned off the one-pedal setting without telling me. THAT was a shock when I got the the end of my street.
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Nov 13, 2023 13:03
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I charge to 100% on Fridays, so I have more free work electrons for the weekend, and the car just not really slowing down when I take my foot off the pedal makes me do a little  every time.
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Nov 13, 2023 13:07
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fondue posted:I've found it pretty This is demonstrably untrue. lovely contractor-grade gas ranges are better than lovely contractor-grade electric ranged yes, but a proper induction cooktop beats the poo poo out of both of them and steals their lunch money. It’s not even close.
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Nov 13, 2023 13:19
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Also like aren't gas ovens, unless you're talking like really high temp pizza ovens, generally considered worse than electric, even by people who prefer gas cooktops?
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Nov 13, 2023 13:41
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I lived in a place with a commercial gas range/oven, and you'd know the oven was on, because 5-20 minutes after you turned it on it would go *WHOOOOOMP!* and the door would fly open, hit the floor, and then bounce back closed with a big slam. It was pretty entertaining.
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Nov 13, 2023 13:51
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gwrtheyrn posted:Also like aren't gas ovens, unless you're talking like really high temp pizza ovens, generally considered worse than electric, even by people who prefer gas cooktops? Yeah p much. Ideal setup is to have a couple gas burners, an induction plate and an electric convection oven.
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Nov 13, 2023 13:52
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Elviscat posted:I lived in a place with a commercial gas range/oven, and you'd know the oven was on, because 5-20 minutes after you turned it on it would go *WHOOOOOMP!* and the door would fly open, hit the floor, and then bounce back closed with a big slam. home alone basement-rear end oven
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Nov 13, 2023 13:57
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MrYenko posted:This is demonstrably untrue. lovely contractor-grade gas ranges are better than lovely contractor-grade electric ranged yes, but a proper induction cooktop beats the poo poo out of both of them and steals their lunch money. It’s not even close. Dollar for dollar gas is superior. Induction is still a lot more expensive.
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Nov 13, 2023 14:01
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Stultus Maximus posted:Dollar for dollar gas is superior. Induction is still a lot more expensive. Home Depot has one for $900 so the bottom end isn't as bad to buy into as it used to be, but I'd have to be even more of a loving idiot than I am now to buy a Samsung or LG appliance
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Nov 13, 2023 14:05
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Tiny Timbs posted:…but I'd have to be even more of a loving idiot than I am now to buy a Samsung or LG appliance Truth here. Holy gently caress the Samsung washer and dryer that came with my house were loving terrible. Metal guide wheels around a plastic wash bucket. Way to go, production engineers, you stupid fucks.
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Nov 13, 2023 14:21
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Even setting aside the environmental concerns or the fumes, the amount of waste heat a gas stove produces is a gigantic annoyance. It heats up the whole house a stupid amount and makes pot handles too hot to touch. I bought this house new two and a half years ago and it came with gas appliances, but I every time I cook on this stove I think about how much I'd rather have induction.
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Nov 13, 2023 15:02
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depending on where you live that can be a feature at some times of the year!
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Nov 13, 2023 15:11
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Standalone induction burners are not expensive and work great. I have heard of small apartments actually skipping a built in range for a couple of these for use on a general purpose countertop with drawers to stash them when not in use.
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Nov 13, 2023 16:22
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:depending on where you live that can be a feature at some times of the year! Last winter an ice storm took out our power for several hours with an outside temperature in negative Fahrenheit digits. I was extremely happy to have a gas stove.
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Nov 13, 2023 17:48
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As a rural new Englander who had the power out a lot growing up, I don’t think I’d be willing to move to electric heat without either some kind of battery storage or other backup.
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Nov 13, 2023 18:09
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