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pik_d posted:(White Sand, OB) Yeah that's the open question, if he's using other techniques to suss her out or if he can just logically deduce it Lawnie posted:Surprise! Malazan is now in the cosmere! The crossover nobody was asking for and now entire readerships begin their descent into madness!
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Nov 13, 2023 17:58
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DarkHorse posted:The crossover nobody was asking for and now entire readerships begin their descent into madness! I...really dislike Malazan. I've tried to read it, twice. I've made it a few books in. It's just such a frustrating read, and it's the one single fantasy staple series that I simply cannot understand why it's so popular. Usually I can tell why something is popular even if that reason doesn't work for me. And the opposite is true; I understand why many people dislike Sanderson. But I find the love for Malazan to be completely inscrutable. 
ConfusedUs fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 13, 2023 18:02
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ConfusedUs posted:I...really dislike Malazan. It took people years to notice I had inserted an extra apostrophe into the magazine thread title
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Nov 13, 2023 18:03
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:It took people years to notice I had inserted an extra apostrophe into the magazine thread title Fuckin' lol. I didn't notice it myself until just now. (looks like you got autocorrected from Malazan to magazine)
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Nov 13, 2023 18:15
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if sanderson was like erikson the entirety of the events of the first Mistborn trilogy would happen off camera and we'd only get oblique references to them from characters who weren't there and are largely ill-informed, wrong, or lying on purpose about what happened. then, years later, he'd let Dan Wells write it for him
eke out fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 13, 2023 18:26
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I'm not that far into Words of Radiance (only about 5 or 6 chapters) but I'm really enjoying it so far. My favorite little moment up to this point is the brief POV interlude with Sadeas. It was so perfectly corny and I loving loved it. A very "and now lets check in on the schemes of one of the story's villains." If only Sadeas had a mustache that he played with as he spoke. It was very good. Book is great so far. (We'll see if my opinion changes once the flashbacks start)
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Nov 13, 2023 19:05
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Malazan has definitely been on my radar of series to read after I'm caught up with the Cosmere, but sometimes it feels like it's the torture-porn of fantasy mega-series? Like people read it either to say they have, or because they want to punish themselves? Everyone I've heard talk about it has the same "I have no idea what's going on" no matter what point they're at. Apparently Erikson even has some bit (a forward maybe) about how he's unapologetic about how difficult it is to read and he kinda comes across as a dick in it?
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Nov 13, 2023 19:08
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pik_d posted:Malazan has definitely been on my radar of series to read after I'm caught up with the Cosmere, but sometimes it feels like it's the torture-porn of fantasy mega-series? Like people read it either to say they have, or because they want to punish themselves? Everyone I've heard talk about it has the same "I have no idea what's going on" no matter what point they're at. Apparently Erikson even has some bit (a forward maybe) about how he's unapologetic about how difficult it is to read and he kinda comes across as a dick in it? I've read the first 5 books and it took me 3 or 4 times of rereading the first few books to finally get that far. The payoffs are just never worth it for me. Some people I know really love it though, its just very much not for me.
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Nov 13, 2023 19:11
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RC Cola posted:I've read the first 5 books and it took me 3 or 4 times of rereading the first few books to finally get that far. The payoffs are just never worth it for me. Some people I know really love it though, its just very much not for me. OK but do they love it, or are they saying they love it performatively?
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Nov 13, 2023 19:12
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Mordiceius posted:I'm not that far into Words of Radiance (only about 5 or 6 chapters) but I'm really enjoying it so far. His chapters are definitely fun because you get the "No, yeah, you really are just like this now".
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Nov 13, 2023 19:13
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pik_d posted:OK but do they love it, or are they saying they love it performatively? feels like more B than A
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Nov 13, 2023 19:19
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I've read all of Malazan (excluding the final two ICE novels) and you're right, Erikson's pacing is crazy. The best way I can think to describe it is that he moves from event to event without fully resolving or beginning any of them. So you're jumping between massive world changing confluences of superpowers but most of the introductory and conclusory work is done offscreen. I really enjoyed it despite that, I think the character work and perspective is great. Most of the story is told from the perspective of army grunts who don't matter, and are just kind of living through what's going on, the result is unique, interesting, and unlike any other series I've read. I think part of the reason that not knowing what's going on didn't bother me is because the characters ALSO don't know what's going on and you're all kind of figuring it out together. When you're saying "what is this poo poo now?" so are the characters
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Nov 13, 2023 19:19
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Malazan is a book of superlatives. Every other character is the supreme lord high king of an incredibly specific niche. Within that domain they have no equal; they rarely even have pretenders to the throne. These godlike titans each pursues their own ineffable agenda, grinding mere mortals between the cogs of their oppressive supremacy. The world shakes with their footsteps, the skies burn with their thoughts, and we, the readers, are meant to understand only the barest mote of their ultimate goals. The end result is not unlike that of a toddler watching his elder brother smash his GI Joes together while making explosion noises.
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Nov 13, 2023 19:26
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erikson's also an archaeologist who loves thinking about how difficult it is to know things and how fragmentary knowledge is and how it breaks down in transmission, especially of times long past i liked a lot of the series a lot and they have some fantastic magic poo poo that is diametrically opposed to Sanderson-type Rules Based Order For Magic but it's also full of awful rape and torture and i'll never read it again
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Nov 13, 2023 19:29
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I tried reading Malazan like 15 years ago and got about 80 pages into book 1 before giving up. From everything I heard, you have to reread the entire series like five times to begin to understand the overall plot.
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Nov 13, 2023 19:34
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Mordiceius posted:I tried reading Malazan like 15 years ago and got about 80 pages into book 1 before giving up. From everything I heard, you have to reread the entire series like five times to begin to understand the overall plot. That honestly sounds like hell, I don't like re-reading poo poo completely. I love the Wheel of Time and the Cosmere but the chances of me re-reading either of them anytime soon are really loving low.
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Nov 13, 2023 19:44
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I read the series once and understood the plot just fine, but it's definitely opaque. It was an amazing and impactful read in the 2010s but I've found the optimism of the cosmere more palatable lately.
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Nov 13, 2023 19:51
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Lawnie posted:Surprise! Malazan is now in the cosmere! just to be clear, this is a joke right
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Nov 13, 2023 19:59
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scrolled past your post and had a god drat panic attack Jesus don't even joke about that holy shiiiiiiit
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Nov 13, 2023 19:59
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I also have only read it once and understood it fine. People make it out to be much worse than it is, and jumping into book 1 is definitely difficult because Erikson just drops your right in the middle of a whole world with zero prep. I almost gave up at the half way point of Gardens of the Moon, but after a week I picked it back up and it got much better from there, Gardens is also the worst written of the books as there is 10 year gap between it and the rest of series where his writing improved tremendously. If you're worried about that you can start he series with book 2 or even 4. Also, Sanderson's "Sanderlanch" pales in comparison to Erikson's
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Nov 13, 2023 20:01
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DarkHorse posted:Yeah that's the open question, if he's using other techniques to suss her out or if he can just logically deduce it (OB, Secret History) Just realized, after reading a bit more and seeing the two versions of Shallan he creates, that he could have used Malatium to see her if he had any ingested.
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Nov 13, 2023 20:07
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McSpankWich posted:I also have only read it once and understood it fine. People make it out to be much worse than it is, and jumping into book 1 is definitely difficult because Erikson just drops your right in the middle of a whole world with zero prep. I almost gave up at the half way point of Gardens of the Moon, but after a week I picked it back up and it got much better from there, Gardens is also the worst written of the books as there is 10 year gap between it and the rest of series where his writing improved tremendously. If you're worried about that you can start he series with book 2 or even 4. Also, Sanderson's "Sanderlanch" pales in comparison to Erikson's I agree with this post, it’s only unpleasant to read if you don’t enjoy feeling like you’re discovering a primary source from an utterly unknown civilization. It’s totally fine that I don’t really get how Warrens work or why/how/when three major races of people warred with each other, it’s not like every character in-universe is in on it, either. I also really, really love Book of the New Sun so I’m pretty biased towards the “here’s the world, no questions and no answers, please” genre of epic fantasy.
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Nov 13, 2023 20:23
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I feel like the Malazan books would be fun to do as a "archaeological read/research group." Have a group of people that all have never read it and then all read like two chapters a week and then meet weekly to discuss and analyze the material as if they're an anthropology group that is trying to understand the past.
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Nov 13, 2023 20:50
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Mordiceius posted:I feel like the Malazan books would be fun to do as a "archaeological read/research group." Have a group of people that all have never read it and then all read like two chapters a week and then meet weekly to discuss and analyze the material as if they're an anthropology group that is trying to understand the past. This sounds like a first time reader podcast with a Halloween costume on
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Nov 13, 2023 20:53
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That sounds like a very specific niche of tabletop RPG.
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Nov 13, 2023 21:04
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Do I have news for you about Malazan!
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Nov 13, 2023 22:12
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I talked for a good 10 minutes with Sanderson about Malazan at the book reading/signing for Words of Radiance. Sanderson said he was a friend of Erikson and that while he wasn't fully subsumed by his work he truly liked Erikson's prose. He specifically brought up a bit from Deadhouse Gates where there is sort of a manifestation of the god of death in the form of a cloud of flies around the soon to be dead. He complimented the prose and the impact of the scene but never seemed grandly into the what I assumed to be the "Intensity" of the scene. I can say for sure that Sanderson and Erikson are at least vague friends as he spoke about the fella in nothing but positive terms. I never asked but I assume he is not a fan of The Prince of Nothing. Whatever people have to say about Malazan, Erikson is sure as hell not Bakker who I hold as the ultimate WHAT THE gently caress fantasy author. Sanderson at least appreciates Malazan.
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Nov 13, 2023 23:16
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He seems to appreciate most other notable fiction authors, even the grittier ones that clash with his white Utah bubble. Watching Sanderson and Abercrombie joke and discussing how they appreciate each other's work was lovely.
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Nov 13, 2023 23:21
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Still early in WoR and I have a question about Fabrials. - Fabrials seem to be a way to do surgebindings without being a surgebinder - is this correct? Like they talk about the fabrial used for soulcasting and how Jasnah didn't actually need it. So all of the Ardents doing soulcasting - they're just using fabrials, right? Or are they surgebinders in secret?
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Nov 15, 2023 18:32
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Mordiceius posted:Still early in WoR and I have a question about Fabrials. - Fabrials seem to be a way to do surgebindings without being a surgebinder - is this correct? Like they talk about the fabrial used for soulcasting and how Jasnah didn't actually need it. So all of the Ardents doing soulcasting - they're just using fabrials, right? Or are they surgebinders in secret? Also note that due to the existence of those, Rosharan society calls basically any machine, especially one running on Stormlight, a fabrial. (For example, later on, Dalinar gets a fabrial that is, in fact, just a watch.)
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Nov 15, 2023 18:36
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Mordiceius posted:Still early in WoR and I have a question about Fabrials. - Fabrials seem to be a way to do surgebindings without being a surgebinder - is this correct? Like they talk about the fabrial used for soulcasting and how Jasnah didn't actually need it. So all of the Ardents doing soulcasting - they're just using fabrials, right? Or are they surgebinders in secret? Sort of. There's a bit of mystery about how Soulcasters work and if shardblades/plate are also fabrials, but the basic premise is that fabrials capture the fundamental forces of nature in some way (by capturing spren) and that surge binding is a similar process (but apparently with "intelligent" spren). Kind of like the difference between using a pulley to lift something and getting your buddy Gravity to turn itself off for a bit. CapnAndy posted:A working fabrial lets you do specific Soulcasting without being a surgebinder, that's why they're so valuable. So yes, the Ardents should be assumed to be using working fabrials, not an entire hidden caste of surgebinders. I'm pretty sure that fabrial actually does include a spren too (I think a logicspren) that serves the same purpose as a quartz crystal would in ours DarkHorse fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Nov 15, 2023 |
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Nov 15, 2023 18:40
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CapnAndy posted:Also note that due to the existence of those, Rosharan society calls basically any machine, especially one running on Stormlight, a fabrial. (For example, later on, Dalinar gets a fabrial that is, in fact, just a watch.) Okay. That's loving funny. DarkHorse posted:Sort of. There's a bit of mystery about how Soulcasters work and if shardblades/plate are also fabrials, but the basic premise is that fabrials capture the fundamental forces of nature in some way (by capturing spren) and that surge binding is a similar process (but apparently with "intelligent" spren). Kind of like the difference between using a pulley to lift something and getting your buddy Gravity to turn itself off for a bit. That makes sense. So far, where I am in the book, there is both a reverence and a casualness towards fabrials. Like "ardents soulcast in private" but also "here's a fabrial that is your fireplace." Fabrial tech is... interesting... and I hope we go into it more. On an unrelated Stormlight subject - (general Stormlight question/speculation/theorycrafting) "Stormlight" is the fuel for surgebinding, just as Metals are the fuel for allomancy. I'm assuming that Stormlight is some style of investiture. But Stormlight can only be captured during highstorms, correct? And these spheres with crystals in them are basically "Stormlight batteries." But like... I feel like a surgebinder would end up being a very weak worldhopper since Stormlight is unique to Roshar. A Mistborn could go to Roshar and find metals but a surgebinder couldn't go to Scadrial and find Stormlight. Also would feel really lovely if you burn through all your spheres and oops the next highstorm is a week away. I wonder if, as I move through this series, there are better Stormlight batteries than just "some marbles in your pocket."
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Nov 15, 2023 18:52
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Definitely keep reading to have your theorycrafting query expanded. 
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Nov 15, 2023 18:57
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That actually does raise a question I've never considered before, though. (No specific spoilers but references an important cross-Cosmere mechanic) Could a Scadrian eat the metals from anywhere and have it work, or does it have to be local (and thus presumably Invested) iron/copper/whatever?
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Nov 15, 2023 19:11
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CapnAndy posted:That actually does raise a question I've never considered before, though. (No specific spoilers but references an important cross-Cosmere mechanic) Could a Scadrian eat the metals from anywhere and have it work, or does it have to be local (and thus presumably Invested) iron/copper/whatever? I'm pretty sure the answer to that is yes. It's the power of preservation in Scadrians that lets them process metals, not something in the metals themselves.
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Nov 15, 2023 19:12
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TGG posted:I'm pretty sure the answer to that is yes. It's the power of preservation in Scadrians that lets them process metals, not something in the metals themselves. Or is it that all matter on Scadrial is dually invested with Preservation and Ruin investiture? In that case, the metal on Scadrial would be special. Maybe all Cosmere magic works on Vampire rules. If a Vampire travels, they have to bring soil from their native land with them or else they'll lose their powers. Turns out Brandon was writing Vampire stories with anime window dressing all along. If this is the case, it could make things interesting as (General Cosmere speculation - including specific elements from The Lost Metal - aka pid_d warning) wars between different areas (Scadrial vs Roshar) would give a massive homefield advantage to the defenders. Also, unkeyed investiture would be the most valuable resource in the Cosmere. Whoever holds the most unkeyed investiture would control the entire Cosmere. Does the Cosmere progress into a gold rush to claim all of the unkeyed investiture. And for that matter - where does unkeyed investiture come from? The Ghostbloods have some, but where did they get it? Can a Shardholder just be like "I'm going to squeeze out some of my investiture power into this jar but remove any link to me"? Mordiceius fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Nov 15, 2023 |
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Nov 15, 2023 19:22
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You’ve made several very insightful deductions. You haven’t always reached the correct conclusions, but you’re thinking along the right lines!
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Nov 15, 2023 19:25
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TGG posted:I'm pretty sure the answer to that is yes. It's the power of preservation in Scadrians that lets them process metals, not something in the metals themselves. In The Bands of Mourning, in one of the broadsheet stories, there is this line that threw me off for a while. Nicelle Sauvage posted:When I drain a Misting of metal reserves, I feel something I can only describe as pulling power from the metal and returning this power to some external source. The metal remains, but the power is gone. Is the "power" the Investiture? If so, is an Investiture started when a Metalborn ingests the metal or when they start burning it? If it's when they ingest it, can a leecher-drained metal be thrown up and re-ingested (the quote says the metal remains)? If, however, the Investiture is opened when a metal is burned, what is the leecher leeching from metals not being actively burned? OR, is the information in this story unreliable? I know it's Allomancers Jak adjacent, but it doesn't have the constant plot holes that his stories do, and it wasn't written by Jak himself.
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Nov 15, 2023 19:32
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Mordiceius posted:Does the Cosmere progress into a gold rush to claim all of the unkeyed investiture. And for that matter - where does unkeyed investiture come from? The Ghostbloods have some, but where did they get it? Can a Shardholder just be like "I'm going to squeeze out some of my investiture power into this jar but remove any link to me"?
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Nov 15, 2023 19:37
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CapnAndy posted:I genuinely don't know, but given that you've read Lost Metal, it's safe to share my guess with you: we already know you can strip Connection from powers, because that's what the Southerners do to make those free-use devices. Presumably the process is similar? If you can get the Investiture separated out from whatever's normally storing it and into the jar, you could Connection-strip it? Yeah I assume it would be something like that (Getting into the post Lost Metal Scadrial weeds) I know I'm not deep into Stormlight but I've heard it mentioned that Surgebinding might be the most powerful of the arts. I feel like the metallic arts are far more dangerous - especially if you're counting hemalurgy. Surgebinders get two powers each (makes me think of Twinborn Scadrians) but full Mistborn or full Feruchemists seem entirely too broken - especially since the latter can gently caress with connection. I feel like Kelsier and the Ghostbloods could start escalating things in a way that Rosharans wouldn't be able to contend with. I mean, by the end of The Lost Metal, Wax is a a Mistborn. It's gonna happen. We're going to see the return of Mistborn. On the other hand, we could just see a situation where capitalism kicks in and anyone can buy/sell access to the metallic arts through items with no connection, like the southern Scadrial medallions. I wonder... could someone take Feruchemical powers, slap them on a Rosharan and store the power to surgebind? In another 10 years, the Cosmere is gonna get funky. Mordiceius fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Nov 15, 2023 |
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Nov 15, 2023 19:43
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