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Sailor Viy posted:For me, the question of representing diverse viewpoints comes down to work. Yes, you can hypothetically write about any character in any situation, as long as you put in the work to do the research. But the further from your own perspective you go, the more effort you have to put in to do it justice, and at some point you have to pick your battles. Probably a bit old hat, but: Ridley from the Alien movies (or at least the first one) was originally a male character, but they swapped it, and they created one of the most beloved female protags of all time. So, if you're looking through your cast's broad traits, don't be afraid to turn one of the men into a woman or NB, or make a white character black/asian/latino/middle eastern/native American, or make a straight character gay/bi/pan/ace, or a cis character trans, if any of those facts aren't load-bearing in terms of plot. This is probably a bit more applicable to modern day, fantasy or sci-fi stories, however. Historical fiction will require a bit more thought.
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Nov 13, 2023 06:47
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Junpei posted:Probably a bit old hat, but: Ridley from the Alien movies (or at least the first one) was originally a male character, but they swapped it, and they created one of the most beloved female protags of all time. they were all ungendered.
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Nov 13, 2023 07:32
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Also just swapping in someone without really thinking about it is exactly what people are saying they don't want to do.
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Nov 13, 2023 07:44
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thanks for the correction, sorry
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Nov 13, 2023 07:48
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For me, there are just certain things at this point in my writing career I won't do. I wrote a double-novel about two cis-male war veterans in the 1870's being "accused" homosexuality, the latter of which was something I personally experienced as a teen to an intense degree. The klan plays a prominent role, including a scene with a lynching and another with an attempted lynching. I grew up in the south, including many summers where we would drive around Pulaski, a sundown town where the Klan was located for a long time. A main character is a freed old black man of indiscriminate but very old age. I basically had a black stepfather in a very old fashioned white family, so I feel like I get some of the interpersonal dynamics. But you want to know what I never did? Write a very specific slur. That's not my word to use. Now, if some POC read it and say it sounds weird without that word coming out of the klan's mouth, I'll reconsider. But for the time being, that's a big nope. I'm an almost forty year old cis-white male from the south. I don't use that word.
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Nov 13, 2023 13:42
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I'm not crazy about using too much exposition all at once. My MC is like, a level 6 Druid/Wizard multi-class, and I'm thinking of using her dreams to recall her early lessons piece by piece. I don't want her to be in a situation where she can just snap her fingers and say she's done something like this before, without any leadup that she knows what to do. If that makes sense? I don't want her to have a deus ex machina in her back pocket. Or, some things she does could be a surprise, but she explains right afterwards. I also had an idea for small interstitial chapters between the main ones, told from a side character observing the action from a different angle. Something about lore-dumps, especially ones that start with "As you know..." just turns my brain right off.
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Nov 13, 2023 19:02
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Waffle! posted:I'm not crazy about using too much exposition all at once. My MC is like, a level 6 Druid/Wizard multi-class, and I'm thinking of using her dreams to recall her early lessons piece by piece. That's fairly traditional. I think Star Wars: Jedi: Fallen Order uses something similar to show tutorials. Just try and make sure to also use the flashbacks to demonstrate character growth and change from "back then" to "present day", not just skills learned. Coincidentally, just now I'm going to adjust a written scene from a library to my MC's room, because I'm about to have a scene where she sees a crossbow bolt and can rapidly identify the likely location of the shooter because of her archery experience. I hadn't set that up yet, and it would indeed feel jarring to suddenly learn she has that knowledge at that moment.
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Nov 13, 2023 19:53
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I want to write an L shaped timeline, like we start at a pivotal point and mostly move the plot forward, but sometimes drop in a chapter that moves backwards from the starting point, until at the end there's two chapters back to back of the main character first arriving in (the main setting) and finally leaving (the main setting). The backwards-moving chapters would always reveal some past event that is relevant to the forward-moving plot at hand. I think that would be cool.
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Nov 13, 2023 20:56
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Banks' Use of Weapons does that, or something like it. My only caveat would be the pulp fiction rule which is that a story with time fuckery should be at least reasonably entertaining if told in normal order.
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Nov 13, 2023 21:03
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I'd love to read more books that take extreme liberties with their chronology. Like hell yeah, who said a book has to go from the first event to the last event. Go wild--just like, make it cool.
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Nov 13, 2023 23:09
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Wungus posted:I'd love to read more books that take extreme liberties with their chronology. Like hell yeah, who said a book has to go from the first event to the last event. Go wild--just like, make it cool. Read Vellum by Hal Duncan and let me know if you can figure out what the gently caress is happening
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Nov 13, 2023 23:31
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Wungus posted:I'd love to read more books that take extreme liberties with their chronology. Like hell yeah, who said a book has to go from the first event to the last event. Go wild--just like, make it cool. Cloud Atlas has a matroyoshka doll format with six individual stories. The book ends and starts with the first and proceeds with the others until the 6th book finishes in one sitting and you conclude the other books in the opposite order that they started. One of the best books I've ever read. It also plays with language changing between the decades of the stories which characterizes their time period.
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Nov 14, 2023 00:03
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Oh I wouldn't want it to be confusing or even complex. I might label the chapter by year, or by the protagonist's age or something. The forward story is longer and lasts about 3 or 4 years, the backward story is shorter and takes about 20 years. That's part of why I want to do it that way, because I don't want to start with child protagonists and also don't want to start with a bunch of time skips. The other reason is I think the forward story will naturally make people wonder about the past and then they'd slowly get it and it would be satisfying. Drip-feeding the reader flashbacks is definitely something I've seen in a lot of stories. I don't recall a case where they specifically go backwards every time, or where the stories aren't connected by some conceit of a character thinking or talking about the past. But I'm sure it's been done.
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Nov 14, 2023 02:02
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Hacking my way through NaNoWriMo at a not-insignificant pace and I have a question (that I may have asked here before, can't remember): What's the standard for using existing brands and artists? The default is "you should only change the name if it's in a negative context," right? I'm writing near-future sci-fi with an emphasis on climate collapse, increased privatization and ramping up of the security state, and widening, untenable income inequality as major themes, so it's basically playing out a continuation of business as usual from the real world, if that matters
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Nov 14, 2023 16:52
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You can use real people and brands freely. If you do sell the book to a traditional publisher their legal department will do a review. My next book has like a gazillion world refs but they didn't flag anything as a problem.
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Nov 14, 2023 17:20
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General Battuta posted:You can use real people and brands freely. If you do sell the book to a traditional publisher their legal department will do a review. My next book has like a gazillion world refs but they didn't flag anything as a problem. Amazing, thanks. I really am pushing myself this month to get into the "just write, get it out and edit later" mentality so that's assuring
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Nov 14, 2023 17:48
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I always go by Stephen King’s maxim, which I’m badly paraphrasing. You don’t use an existing celebrity or brand to cheat giving a proper description. I think his example was, “The cowboy looked like Clint Eastwood” as lazy and unacceptable.
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Nov 14, 2023 19:07
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Captain Log posted:I always go by Stephen King’s maxim, which I’m badly paraphrasing. Comparing characters to celebrities can be fun when done in a joking way though I often make jokes about my protagonist looking like Akhenaten to denote how freaky they are, but then my protagonist actually knows who that is E. A better way to think about it is, making any comparison to a celebrity or historical figure is a cultural reference that oughta fit the milieu of the story. Comparing a cowboy to Clint Eastwood is a lazy way to describe someone in a historical western, but if the characters in the story are making that comparison (or anti-comparison) and it makes sense for them to do so, then that’s a choice Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Nov 14, 2023 |
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Nov 14, 2023 20:18
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I remember that one of the John Dies At The End Of This Book books has a character named Jennifer Lopez and they make jokes about how she doesnt look like the famous Jennifer Lopez
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Nov 14, 2023 21:03
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Quick Question - If reading a story written from the first person perspective of a single individual recalling a series of events, would you use contractions?
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Nov 29, 2023 14:31
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Captain Log posted:Quick Question - I think the question is: would the character? But I wouldn't have an issue reading it if it fits the character or the rest of your prose.
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Nov 29, 2023 14:42
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Just please don't do that thing where you try to show a particular character is an intellectual by their not using contractions.
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Nov 29, 2023 14:45
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^This. Especially in dialogue, it sounds so awkward.Captain Log posted:Quick Question - Yes. A billion times yes. Please make first person narrators sound the way people actually talk. I always think back to how my grandfather used to entertain people with his bullshit stories. But when he got a computer and tried to write some of them down he fell back on all the writing rules he’d learned way back in 1920s grammar school and it drained all of his character outta them. If instead someone had held a tape recorder up to him while he told his stories their hilarious essence woulda been preserved. THAT is how you oughta be writing first person. Forget formal grammar. It kills the voice. E. Like I use oughta and outta and woulda etc. when writing informally—I do exactly the same in 1st person narration cause gently caress formal grammar—it’s a novel not a PHD thesis. It’s supposed to be naturalistic Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Nov 29, 2023 |
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Nov 29, 2023 16:33
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Stuporstar posted:Yes. A billion times yes. Please make first person narrators sound the way people actually talk. Not just talk, but think as well. When I'm internally narrating, I use "can't", etc, having a narration without contractions would read as really weird IMO. My current WIP is first-person and I've been trying to strike a balance between suffusing the narrative with personality and not have it read as too annoying
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Nov 29, 2023 16:37
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It depends on the contraction. One's like can't and won't would be kind of weird for a modern person to not use, but others like who're and there's depends on the speaker.
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Nov 29, 2023 16:50
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This video gives a good explanation of which contractions are more hard-baked into native English than others and why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNcS0S__WlQ
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Nov 29, 2023 17:05
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I just introduced a new character in my story and his first three lines don't have contractions. But he's also intimidating a bunch of kids, so I think I'll have him be more chill afterwards.
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Nov 29, 2023 17:31
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If it’s ok, I might post a couple paragraphs here once they’re polished. Maybe one with contractions and one without. I grew up in a split family that divorced when I was five in 1989. One side was all religious conservative southerners, while the other side were all recent immigrants from Britain. It gave me a pretty unique perspective on language. That said, most of my stories are set in the south with southern characters. So speaking fancily isn’t always on the menu. But I sure as gently caress don’t use language as a shortcut to demonstrate imbecility.
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Nov 29, 2023 17:53
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It depends on what kind of first person narration you're using. If it's the character's thoughts in the moment, write like his inner monologue would be. If the character is telling the story to someone else, I could imagine some settings where unnatural diction would be evocative. Maybe he's telling the story to an evil robot, so he is trying to be very precise. Or he is telling it in a language he is not very comfortable in. Or, hey, maybe he just is not the type of person who uses contractions. But generally, I'd agree that contractions are easier to read.
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Nov 29, 2023 19:17
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Captain Log posted:If it’s ok, I might post a couple paragraphs here once they’re polished. Maybe one with contractions and one without. What’s far more interesting than simply deciding how a character speaks, particularly a first person protagonist, is figuring out what modes of speech the character is comfortable in and when they employ a “higher” or “lower” level of diction or different dialects. I do this in the narration as well as dialogue when the protagonist wants to pull off a certain effect, or rather put on a certain affect, so their tone modulates from casual to formal, from serious to funny, from trying to be poetic (or failing to be like when I translate Rumi badly on purpose) to being gripped in reliving a traumatic moment and losing control of their narrative. Consistency is less important than fully and purposely exploring a narrator’s range Asking yourself what impression your narrator wants to make will lead you right more often than asking a bunch of people on the internet what’s “good” writing Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Nov 29, 2023 |
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Nov 29, 2023 23:06
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I keep rewriting the intro to something that I feel like I shouldn't be taking so seriously. I'm not doing this for money or anything, but I think the thing is that I want to gain experience with writing in general and I feel like every time I come back, I feel like something's lacking: the story's third person narration doesn't have a voice that stands out, its too edgy or alternatively its too silly, I'm overemphasizing some things and not being clear on others, etc. I've been tinkering with this for weeks and I should just push beyond this and come back to edit things when I have a few more chapters down, right? I feel like the intro is the most important part of the story in my mind, but that's probably an oversimplification.
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Dec 1, 2023 06:48
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Whirling posted:I keep rewriting the intro to something that I feel like I shouldn't be taking so seriously. I'm not doing this for money or anything, but I think the thing is that I want to gain experience with writing in general and I feel like every time I come back, I feel like something's lacking: the story's third person narration doesn't have a voice that stands out, its too edgy or alternatively its too silly, I'm overemphasizing some things and not being clear on others, etc. I've been tinkering with this for weeks and I should just push beyond this and come back to edit things when I have a few more chapters down, right? I feel like the intro is the most important part of the story in my mind, but that's probably an oversimplification. You are tinkering on a piece you have already written. Write the next thing.
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Dec 1, 2023 07:08
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Thunderdome is not a writing panacea but it's great for that kind of issue. Get the prompt, write bad, get another prompt, write a little better.
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Dec 1, 2023 07:13
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Whirling posted:I feel like the intro is the most important part of the story in my mind, but that's probably an oversimplification. Finish the drat thing first. Until you've finished the draft, you've got no clue what your story is about and therefore no clue how to rewrite the opening properly to hit all the story promises you need to make. DropTheAnvil posted:Write the next thing. Or this.
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Dec 1, 2023 07:28
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Don't worry about the intro until you've finished most of the rest. Chances are your vision will change and you'll have to edit it anyhow. That's also how I deal with chapters and other small parts, just start in the middle and write to the end. If it absolutely needs an intro, I add it later.
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Dec 1, 2023 11:20
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I feel your pain! It's funny, because before I edited my double-novel from first to second draft I could bang out 1000 plus words a day easily. Since then, my output has nearly halved. I feel like editing broke my ability to just roll through a story without henpecking it drat near to death in the process.
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Dec 1, 2023 14:14
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Whirling posted:I keep rewriting the intro to something that I feel like I shouldn't be taking so seriously. I'm not doing this for money or anything, but I think the thing is that I want to gain experience with writing in general and I feel like every time I come back, I feel like something's lacking: the story's third person narration doesn't have a voice that stands out, its too edgy or alternatively its too silly, I'm overemphasizing some things and not being clear on others, etc. I've been tinkering with this for weeks and I should just push beyond this and come back to edit things when I have a few more chapters down, right? I feel like the intro is the most important part of the story in my mind, but that's probably an oversimplification. Move on. You're going to come up with a better intro the further in you get. Editing as you go isn't necessarily a problem--I'm not one of these "you have to reach the end before you even consider revising" type writers, do whatever works--but the big part of editing as you go is that you, y'know, go. You'll work out the story's voice and the right balance of edgy/silly/etc later. I promise.
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Dec 1, 2023 14:37
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Waffle! posted:I just introduced a new character in my story and his first three lines don't have contractions. But he's also intimidating a bunch of kids, so I think I'll have him be more chill afterwards. When you think about it, aren't we all characters who are introduced through a series of contractions?
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Dec 1, 2023 14:39
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I'm reading Stephen King's On Writing and it's been really helpful. He says the 2nd draft is the 1st draft -10%. I'm writing chapter 3 of my story and I'm thinking about my pacing. My MC goes from being accepted into Wizard Academy, getting a proctor to help her lessons, then being brought along by him on a quest. Like, the Academy is a setting, but I never intended for her to stay there for long. The adventure doesn't take place there, it's more like a pitstop for characters and plot. I'm afraid of moving too fast from one beat to the other? Idk. It's looking like I'm introducing two new secondary characters each chapter and then keeping one for the next. It could be funny for the MC being sent out on a quest before she can even unpack. "I literally just got here!" Waffle! fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Dec 1, 2023 |
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Dec 1, 2023 14:46
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There's no objective answer for "what is the right pacing" in a book because storytelling's this whole thing where if it could be quantified it'd suck rear end. A Wizard of Earthsea sends Ged to wizard school in chapter 3 and unless I am remembering wrong, he graduates at the end of chapter 4. Harry Potter took seven fuckin' books to get there. Some stories are about one thing and other books are about another thing. If you're feeling like your pacing is off, do think about it, but like... there's no rules saying "this is how long a thing needs to take in a book." Some stories skip poo poo. Others don't. e: To be a bit more specifically helpful than "just do whatever" - think about how much importance you're placing on the wizard school. Have you built it up until this point to be the thing the book is about? Has every introductory conflict and question led to a resolution of "but then there's wizard school?" Do your side characters just talk about wizard school? And once there: does your protag spend a lot of time thinking about the minutae of wizard school? Do you focus on the day-to-day? Does the book treat wizard school as The Point (or A Major Point), or do you point out that this is short term? How much of wizard school is vital to the character's existence? And if you're really concerned: can you come up with ways to "return" to wizard school, either by physically going back, or by bringing contacts/ideas/etc from wizard school into future points in the book? If you're focusing entirely on wizard school up until wizard school, then just blasting through to the other side, it might (might) seem rushed, or like the pacing is odd; if you're painting it as a once-off stop, it could be fine, and if you really want to make it clear why it was in the book at all and not just skipped over (to open up with "this person is already a wizard") then you can always go reference it, or flashback, or bring parts of it forward. I wrote a book once where the protag went to mercenary school as a kid, and completely skipped every part of him being at mercenary school, save for one flashback to the point where he quit school and ran off, because I didn't see the point in showing his time at mercenary school so much as it was important to say he did this once. And it worked! That's not the only way to handle a wizard school thing at all, I'm not saying "do what I did," I'm just trying to point out like, you can write books where people only spend a really short period of time actually in a school type situation if the plot doesn't act like the school is the most important thing (right up until you bail from it) Wungus fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Dec 1, 2023 |
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Dec 1, 2023 15:34
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