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Hołownia is the new Sejm marshal. PiS insisted on the previous marshal Elzbieta Witek to be their vice marshal, but the opposition remembers how she’d stall all their initiatives and break the Sejm’s laws to reverse vote results and outright said they won’t support her and so PiS has no vice marshals at all, but Konfederacja does. Good times seeing PiS gargoyles downbeat and Kaczynski a livid old goblin hurling old man insults. He was also late for the national anthem which they’d normally hold up for him in the last 7 years so he was forced to awkwardly stand halfway in the backbenches. He also dozed off during Duda’s speech about R E S P E C T. Fun day! Oh apparently Morawiecki is back to being the PM for the next two weeks when he fails to secure support.
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Nov 13, 2023 23:19
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I don't normally post here because I refuse to accept the facts on the ground and prefer to think of Poland as a Baltic state (which, being in Gdynia it definitely looks like one). One of my favourite authors, Joźef Korzeniowski, put it quite clearly that anyone who views Polish history through the lens of Eastern Europe is foolish and anyone who sees its future as a Slavic country is a traitor. That said, I stumble in here to ask htf is Serbia a candidate to join the EU? Unless I'm being brainwashed by the mainstream media picking up sensational but isolated cases, there are pro-Wagner murals in Belgrade that the police won't let the city paint over. Which actually makes me wonder, the EU isn't a military or defence pact. And you can be completely neutral. You might have to impose sanctions if the supranational body as a whole orders them. But Ireland wouldn't have to send troops to defend Greece in the unlikely event it were attacked by Egypt. Could you be actively antagonistic, though? It would pretty much mean a veto on you joining. But what do the rules say? If you're a candidate country, and they give you the hypothetical question 'What would you do if your neighbour were to be invaded by X?' could you answer 'Oh we'd probably start selling bombs to X. And maybe if our neighbour is completely taken over, it'd be one less poor EU country and we'd get a larger share of the transfer money. So maybe we'd even donate bombs and munitions to the invader.' If you meet all other criteria would you advance in the process?
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Nov 14, 2023 16:41
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EU is in fact a defense pact, among other things, but it's unclear if it would be able to defend itself w/o American help.. . https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/glossary/mutual-defence-clause.html Anyway, Ireland probably would have to send its 50 troops to protected Greece. Probably, there will be lawyers involved.
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Nov 14, 2023 17:01
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OddObserver posted:EU is in fact a defense pact, among other things, but it's unclear if it would be able to defend itself w/o American help.. . I'm not an international military expert or anything, but who could challenge a european defensive alliance? Russia probably couldn't take Poland without nukes, much less France and Germany. (and france has nukes) this is assuming it wouldn't fall apart (I think the response to ukraine shows that it would hold together at least long enough to make an agressor state think twice) or through some sort of irregular warfare to disrupt politics in the baltics or something like that. But, at least from TYOOL 2023 I can't imagine russian tanks pushing into berlin. I mean, check in again in a few years obviously... who knows what will happen to the EU
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Nov 14, 2023 17:13
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One shudders to think of the depravity of using lawyers against enemy combatants. Serbia is a candidate because the expectation is that if they are nice to their neighbours they too can join the EU. EU candidacy in that region is basically "hey, can't we all get along?" of international diplomacy. And to be fair, the EU "Border? What border?" approach has been pretty successful before, though it involved a bunch of regions getting over their petty grievances. Serbia, alas, does not seem to be getting over it.
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Nov 14, 2023 17:20
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Comte de Saint-Germain posted:I'm not an international military expert or anything, but who could challenge a european defensive alliance? Russia probably couldn't take Poland without nukes, much less France and Germany. (and france has nukes) re: nuclear weapons. I am no military scientist (although I am sometimes a scientist working in a military institution lol). But I don't see why they're off the table. Russia would have to convince other nuclear armed states, who probably want very much to believe them given the alternative plausibly ending all human life on the planet, that the Russian military wiping Poland off the map and using tactical nukes to take Germany would be where it stops... at least for the mid-term. Maybe not that Russian aggression would stop. But that any future warfare would be conventional and it's not time to shut the lights off on H. sapiens just yet. About France. What we have going for us is that no major party in France has imperialistic ambitions. Not even the ultraright who defend French's colonial history in Africa. Russia has no chance of a pact to split Europe with France. Marie Le Pen doesn't dream of the Fleur-de-lis on the flag of the French Protectorate of Austria. Nobody does. The bigger risk is simply a Russophile government that would permit it to happen, with the plurality convinced that the Russians are giving Europe its just desserts but they'll be fine. Or else, Russia would have to convince a non-pro-Moscow France they won't invade. But even then, they might try to take France if it were seen that the French would rather live as a Russian colony than die to a man, woman, and child, even if they take out most Russians with them. None of these scenarios really depend on what France would actually do. Just what Russia thinks France would do with its own arsenal. So I am thankful for the US being in NATO. And am not pleased, to say the least, when politicians over there show they're not 100% behind their current commitments. It's not just Trump. Bolton wasn't keen on the idea that the US would risk a world war to protect the Baltics. And I won't name him because I am not completely sure I have the full story, but I think a Republican contender in the news quite a lot suggested it might make sense to explore the pros and cons of ditching NATO to ally with Russia in a pact against China.
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Nov 14, 2023 17:33
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Rest of EU and NATO would just sit idly while Poland is pummeled into submission with tactical or strategic nuclear strikes?
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Nov 14, 2023 17:49
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alex314 posted:Rest of EU and NATO would just sit idly while Poland is pummeled into submission with tactical or strategic nuclear strikes? If we're talking about the EU, what exactly could they do? Not just Poland either. Germany too. I could be massively mistaken but I don't think many scholars, pundits, or armchair generals suppose Russia would take Poland without at least going on to the Main. For topographical reasons if nothing else. Bright Bart fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Nov 14, 2023 |
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Nov 14, 2023 17:58
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Poland is in NATO (and EU obviously, which does have a defnse clause) but considering how much panic over noooks and "escalation" we've had to deal now, with a direct result of half-assing our support for Ukraine, I imagine there would be a sizable contingent saying that Poland has to be sacrificed to avoid WW3 too. How big of a an influence they'll have? I dunno 
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Nov 14, 2023 18:31
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mobby_6kl posted:Poland is in NATO (and EU obviously, which does have a defnse clause) but considering how much panic over noooks and "escalation" we've had to deal now, with a direct result of half-assing our support for Ukraine, I imagine there would be a sizable contingent saying that Poland has to be sacrificed to avoid WW3 too. How big of a an influence they'll have? I dunno If Poland half-assed support most other countries like 1/100th assed theirs....
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Nov 14, 2023 18:56
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One of the Moscow stooges in the EU parliament gave a speech (not in a session but still) on how Europe had forgotten the European tradition of appeasement. They weren't making a joke or a snide attack. They said that the liberal parties in Europe have forgotten the art of appeasement, which has a long track record of success, and is in fact the only way to reliably avoid total war. I am quite sure that this was a mistranslation. In their language it probably meant something like sitting being willing to make certain concessions. But it's not out of the question that they did literally try to convince people that we should just give Russia what they want.
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Nov 14, 2023 19:18
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Bright Bart posted:I don't normally post here because I refuse to accept the facts on the ground and prefer to think of Poland as a Baltic state (which, being in Gdynia it definitely looks like one). One of my favourite authors, Joźef Korzeniowski, put it quite clearly that anyone who views Polish history through the lens of Eastern Europe is foolish and anyone who sees its future as a Slavic country is a traitor. 
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Nov 14, 2023 19:18
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OddObserver posted:If Poland half-assed support most other countries like 1/100th assed theirs.... Not to turn this into a discussion about Ukraine, there's enough of that elsewhere. But I wanted to draw some conclusions from whate we've been seeing play out so far. While everyone else is theoretically much more portected by treaties, the calculus is the same if someone puts nuclear armageddon on one side, and ceding "unimportant Eastern country X". Bright Bart posted:One of the Moscow stooges in the EU parliament gave a speech (not in a session but still) on how Europe had forgotten the European tradition of appeasement. They weren't making a joke or a snide attack. They said that the liberal parties in Europe have forgotten the art of appeasement, which has a long track record of success, and is in fact the only way to reliably avoid total war.
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Nov 14, 2023 19:31
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Charitably, maybe they're opposed to the pan-slavic movement.
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Nov 14, 2023 19:32
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You can be opposed to pan-slavicism without pretending Poland is Baltic. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth is even deader than pan-slavicism.
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Nov 14, 2023 19:38
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Poland is rightfully a Baltic AND a Black Sea country :cryingpilsudski:
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Nov 14, 2023 19:39
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steinrokkan posted:Poland is rightfully a Baltic AND a Black Sea country :cryingpilsudski: Dream bigger, Poland must reunite with the hidden Sybiraków and reclaim it's rightful border on the Kara Sea
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Nov 14, 2023 19:43
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PiS MPs were chanting "Konstytucja!" during today's session of the Sejm, you couldn't make this poo poo up.
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Nov 14, 2023 19:58
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szary posted:PiS MPs were chanting "Konstytucja!" during today's session of the Sejm, you couldn't make this poo poo up. Yeah, they shouldn't be discussing their D&D builds during the legislative session.
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Nov 14, 2023 20:01
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OddObserver posted:EU is in fact a defense pact, among other things, but it's unclear if it would be able to defend itself w/o American help.. . EU defense clause has not been tested and its such a great protection that both Finland and Sweden decided that it isn't going to cut it when Russia lost its mind. The central problem is that there is no clear definition of "aid and assist it by all the means in their power", so "yeah we cannot afford to send anything and since we weren't attacked we cannot legally mobilize our troops so here is a sea container full of expired rations" is technically aiding by all means available.
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Nov 14, 2023 20:05
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Bright Bart posted:That said, I stumble in here to ask htf is Serbia a candidate to join the EU? Unless I'm being brainwashed by the mainstream media picking up sensational but isolated cases, there are pro-Wagner murals in Belgrade that the police won't let the city paint over. EU really doesn't want another war and/or a Russia/China foothold in Europe. To that end, the EU is ready to turn a blind eye to many of Serbia's faults. The recent report on Serbia's candidacy is mostly about Kosovo and aligning the foreign policy towards Russia with EU's. Meanwhile, Vucic (adept at balancing between greater powers) still rules as a pharaoh and is as hostile to the few independent media as always. I assume those issues would have to be dealt with before actual joining appears on the horizon. Also there's a West Balkans trade / transport / tax / education initiative led by Serbia which could maybe, if left unchecked, turn into a regional bloc.
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Nov 14, 2023 20:35
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steinrokkan posted:Poland is rightfully a Baltic AND a Black Sea country :cryingpilsudski: More like :cryingjagiello:
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Nov 14, 2023 20:49
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Okay but if Poland isn't a Baltic state then what loving sea did i drop my phone into last month
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Nov 17, 2023 13:25
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Depends. If your phone broke by being dropped into water, we're an eastern european state. If it survived because it's neither obsolete nor a lemon shipped in from returns in France, that suggests we're central european. If it ran like nothing happened because we can afford real phones, north-central european.
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Nov 17, 2023 13:42
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So you're proposing that the port of Gdynia exists in a quantum superposition where it's simultaneously eastern, central, and northern european? And it remains so until i drop a phone in the sea?
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Nov 17, 2023 13:53
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Gdynia has access to the sea in the same way it has access to the pacific because every water’s connected, maaaaan
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Nov 17, 2023 14:02
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Doctor Malaver posted:EU really doesn't want another war and/or a Russia/China foothold in Europe. To that end, the EU is ready to turn a blind eye to many of Serbia's faults. The latter doesn't make too much sense to me. It's already is a Russian foothold in Europe. This would just make it another Russian foothold in the EU. Plausibly eventually another Chinese one. Is the idea that it will turn westwards after joining? After half the people who have any kind of more mainstream European mindset leave? Transfer payments only do so much and as we have seen that's little. All the bodies of the EU most know this. And besides, we could just give Serbia money without letting them join. We probably actually should do this. So when and if they do join they won't hate us right out of the box. I'm also confused about the former. Is the idea that it won't invade Kosovo because it's not part of the EU? I find it hard to believe that we care about Kosovo so much. I could see it being a cynical economic move. People complained that the numbers and requirements for Bulgaria and Romania were fudged, either to bring in more cheap labour or provide an easier market for goods from the big players. No idea to what extent that is a ridiculous claim that it happened but it wouldn't be ridiculous to suggest that it could. What does the Republic of Serbia offer in this way? armpit_enjoyer posted:So you're proposing that the port of Gdynia exists in a quantum superposition where it's simultaneously eastern, central, and northern european? And it remains so until i drop a phone in the sea? Yes. Although, also no. To find out we have to drive a motorcycle up the Sudetes and see if it can clear the cloud line.
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Nov 17, 2023 14:02
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The idea is that joining the EU is not something that you do overnight, it's a process in which you modify your legislation to be compatible with the values of the Union and let European courts be the final authority in determining if some decision was legal. The trouble with Hungary and PiSland has emphasized the importance of being strict with the process. And yes, the idea is that when a country adopts western political and legislative culture, it will become more pluralistic and that way a tad more liberal, by preventing one party from cementing their power by changing media and courts to serve their own needs.
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Nov 17, 2023 14:15
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goblin week posted:Gdynia has access to the sea in the same way it has access to the pacific because every water’s connected, maaaaan You're confusing Gdynia with Szczecin again, dear
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Nov 17, 2023 16:53
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Maybe they mean it sits on the Bay of Gdańsk and that's not freshwater but not really the open sea either But that would make nearly never port city a city with no sea access
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Nov 17, 2023 17:09
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Oh I was just getting in a passive aggressive snipe about the Bay and specifically the Gdynia port. Mom this water was gross as poo poo why did you take me here to swim
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Nov 17, 2023 17:22
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The Baltic lake is not even a real sea, there's so little salt that many marine species can't survive there because they've adapted to saltier conditions. Incidentally this also makes the Baltic develop more ice, it freezes at -0.3 celsius compared to -1.8 celsius in oceans. Nenonen fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Nov 17, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 18:00
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goblin week posted:Oh I was just getting in a passive aggressive snipe about the Bay and specifically the Gdynia port. Mom this water was gross as poo poo why did you take me here to swim you should get your passive aggressive snipes in my DMs!!!!! somehow! but yes the bay and the gdynia area in particular are wonderful. This year, we had those RCB alerts for like two weeks straight telling people to stay away from the beaches because they just kept finding more and more UXO from WW2 floating close to the port. I love living close to Adventures.
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Nov 17, 2023 18:05
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Sounds like they just wanted to hog beaches for themselves
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Nov 17, 2023 18:24
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My happy childhood memory from Gdynia is discovering smoked flounder. (yes, the beaches sucked)
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Nov 17, 2023 18:47
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Nobody loves the beach in Gdynia. That's why you go to Hel. Neither the Baltic Sea nor the coastline is the *central* part of Polish cultural geography. It's even not a huge coastline (although it's only short in comparison because it's mostly smooth). It's no more densely populated than some other parts of the country. And the majority of our economy has nothing to do with it. But it's a/the *key* part of our cultural geography. For many, many reasons. Being the determining factor in half of the important historical events is just one of them. It's the fatherland's wife (maybe husband in more open-minded times). We literally had wedding ceremonies. And that was after most of it had been lost and some of it hadn't been ours since there was a real Polish state. Like a man who sees his lover after she returns from a year abroad and the first thought is to put a ring on it. In some cases, more like you meet your ex's sister and propose right away because she reminds you of her. Through the Hanseatic cities, through these ceremonies, to kids being sent up north during school breaks (one of the only nice things the puppet communists did aside from subsidizing milk bars?), through today. My baby sister complains that all the Polish boys in her neighbourhood in Canada show off the sand and water from the Bałtyk like it's anything but sand and water, and insist on going there for it even if they're visiting grandparents in Katowice. And swimming in it when it's 8 degrees. So I am not seriously saying Poland is politically one of the Baltic States. But romantically it is a Baltic state. Bright Bart fucked around with this message at 08:33 on Nov 18, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 19:12
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It’s really simple. Szczecin is a post-soviet city despite deep-down being an old German port town. Gdynia is a western European city, with the exception of the north bay, which is deeply III RP due to the numerous military installations. Zopott, sorry, Sopot is a temporarily embarrassed Prussian resort town. Gdańsk is an ex German/Hanseatic city that’s now Polish but crippled by constantly comparinging itself to Warsaw (hint: finish building your loving train station before you even attempt this poo poo). Everything in between is the ancient land of the Pomeranians, stretching from Rügen all the way to the Livonia, wooden carved screaming faces and all that. Hope that helps.
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Nov 17, 2023 22:44
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Bright Bart posted:It's already is a Russian foothold in Europe. It's not binary - like either it's a foothold or it's not. There's a significant percentage of Serbs who feel more aligned with Russia than with "the West" and the EU can't make them disappear. But it can force media freedoms upon Serbia, honest elections, probes into corruption, etc, and hopefully in time get a more western government. And the process should slowly erode the nationalist/pro-Russian numbers. Of course the plan can fail, but so can most political plans. The alternative is to let Serbia turn more and more to Russia, with the opposite effect.
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Nov 17, 2023 22:55
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in very russian legal fashion, the ministry of justice has declared the existence of a coordinated International LGBT Movement organization and filed suit to ban it from the country idk exactly who you serve process to in this situation, though i assume the ban will lead to some weird legal fiction in the future should the judiciary approve it Минюст posted:Об исковом заявлении Минюста России
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Nov 17, 2023 22:56
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Qtotonibudinibudet posted:in very russian legal fashion, the ministry of justice has declared the existence of a coordinated International LGBT Movement organization and filed suit to ban it from the country Considering it's already illegal to speak (in the legal sense) about same-sex relationships or being trans or non-binary in any way that is not negative, it won't really matter. Any NGO that was concerned with LGBT+ rights is already de facto outside the law. I am more concerned with the slow encroachment on women's access to abortions. In some regions, private clinics are already prohibited to perform abortions, and it's likely that a federal law to the same effect will follow soon. And then, who knows, maybe they'll try the PiS gambit.
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Nov 17, 2023 23:25
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