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Milkfred E. Moore posted:If you were aggressively skimming Worm, you're not likely to enjoy Ward. Independently of that, no, I wouldn't say it is particularly good, and I think it only taints one's memories of Worm. It was a very divisive serial even among the core of the fandom. That’s disappointing, ah well. Nitrousoxide posted:Wildbow also has a few other books. I’ll probably give one of these a trial run next time I feel like reading something as ludicrously long as Worm.
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Nov 14, 2023 03:36
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I think whether or not you like Ward depends a lot on what you enjoyed about Worm. It is largely a character-driven narrative that uses the setting as a mechanism for exploring trauma and recovery and cares way more about developing the characters than telling an entertaining or coherent story. It ultimately lost me about two thirds of the way in because parts of it just dragged unnecessarily long especially when it was releasing weekly. It definitely has a few of the most immensely compelling scenes and characters in nearly any fiction I've ever read, it's just that they're surrounded by a lot of... not that. Fajita Queen fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Nov 14, 2023 |
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Nov 14, 2023 04:08
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Yeah I liked Wom (and Wildbow's non superhero stuff) and I didn't finish Ward.
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Nov 14, 2023 04:35
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uPen posted:I finished Worm a few months back and overall enjoyed it despite resorting to some pretty aggressive skimming. Apparently, there's a sequel, is it any good/worth reading? If you want more superhero stuff like Worm, give Super Minion a try. It's very clearly inspired by Worm, and IMO, much better.
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Nov 14, 2023 04:54
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Super Minion is good but only read if you're ok with an unfinished story. It hasn't updated in 9 months and wasn't updated much the year before that either.
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Nov 14, 2023 05:08
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Patrick Spens posted:Yeah I liked Wom (and Wildbow's non superhero stuff) and I didn't finish Ward. 
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Nov 14, 2023 05:30
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Wittgen posted:Ytayla, you misunderstand me. SupSup105: The organizations that would want to make Alden a lab rat are human, not Artonan. No, I understood correctly - I just very strongly doubt that Anesidoran authorities would be willing to treat someone favored so strongly by the Artonans poorly, for political reasons. It's the whole reason Alden was automatically admitted to the elite hero school. And Avowed are culturally familar with the concept of other Avowed keeping secrets about things (like with people who rank up). Milkfred E. Moore posted:If you were aggressively skimming Worm, you're not likely to enjoy Ward. Independently of that, no, I wouldn't say it is particularly good, and I think it only taints one's memories of Worm. It was a very divisive serial even among the core of the fandom. I don't think Ward is much worse than Worm. The only thing that I would consider distinctly worse is the confusing nature of its setting - I never was able to get a clear mental image of what the gently caress the post-Worm world/society was like. It's plot is also more weirdly structured, but I think the independent arcs are generally superior to Worm arcs, even if they don't connect to each other that well. The one thing I'd say is better about Ward is that the members of its core cast are better than Worm's. The only member of Taylor's group that's interesting or developed much is Tattletale. The Ward party is more interesting in comparison. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 11:00 on Nov 14, 2023 |
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Nov 14, 2023 10:52
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Ytlaya posted:No, I understood correctly - I just very strongly doubt that Anesidoran authorities would be willing to treat someone favored so strongly by the Artonans poorly, for political reasons. It's the whole reason Alden was automatically admitted to the elite hero school. And Avowed are culturally familar with the concept of other Avowed keeping secrets about things (like with people who rank up). Worm has a really simple, immediate hook in the first few chapters: bullied girls gets superpowers, is mistaken for a villain. Taylor's story is very easy to get into, and the first eight arcs or so have a good narrative spine of escalating chaos. The bullied girl thing is a really big draw for a lot of people, too. Meanwhile Ward is like, as you say, this weirdly structured collection of arcs that don't really cohere well, and it doesn't really have an immediate hook, and I think Victoria was just not great as a protagonist. I think Ward also drops the ball on a lot of what made the end of Worm intriguing, presents a world that is really hard to figure out immediately, and feels sometimes like bits and pieces were constructed from discarded Worm chapters or alternate drafts. It's kind of like the Undersiders versus Breakthrough. Yeah, the Undersiders might be more simplistic or less developed -- Rachel is the dog girl, Grue is the mature one, Regent is a scumbag, Tattletale is plot fiat -- but they're more easily understood and the reader can infer their role in Taylor's story pretty easily. Rachel is the rival who comes to respect her, Grue is the love interest, Regent should be thrown in a ditch, and Tattletale is the shady accomplice. I think Rachel's pretty interesting the first eight arcs or so, it's just that it never goes anywhere. Meanwhile, Breakthrough just felt overwritten. Which is probably the big difference between the two stories, really.
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Nov 14, 2023 12:54
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Worm has a really simple, immediate hook in the first few chapters: bullied girls gets superpowers, is mistaken for a villain. Taylor's story is very easy to get into, and the first eight arcs or so have a good narrative spine of escalating chaos. The bullied girl thing is a really big draw for a lot of people, too. Meanwhile Ward is like, as you say, this weirdly structured collection of arcs that don't really cohere well, and it doesn't really have an immediate hook, and I think Victoria was just not great as a protagonist. I think Ward also drops the ball on a lot of what made the end of Worm intriguing, presents a world that is really hard to figure out immediately, and feels sometimes like bits and pieces were constructed from discarded Worm chapters or alternate drafts. That's all true, but I'm assuming that if someone has read Worm that they have some "built-in" interest in Ward, so the immediate "hook" isn't quite as necessary. The basic premise is still less compelling in a "page-turner" sort of way though than Worm though, yeah. In Worm you're constantly wondering about stuff like "when will people find out," while Ward doesn't really have a similar through-line to keep you reading outside of its individual arcs. edit: To the person who originally asked about this, it might be worth checking out Twig. It's probably the best of wildbow's stuff I've read, though I haven't read the latest one. For the most part it has pretty self-contained arcs, but they work better than in Ward. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Nov 14, 2023 |
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Nov 14, 2023 18:55
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I finished Ward but I had a hard time towards the end and was feeling checked out through a lot of it. I didn't have any of those issues with Worm but it was my first dive into webserials and I probably overlooked some messy stuff because the story stayed engaging throughout due to the constant escalation that Wildbow is known for. Ward had some cool ideas but the execution and world building just didn't feel right.
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Nov 14, 2023 20:24
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I recently started reading Pale after previously only reading Worm and (about half of) Ward, and it's been pretty interesting. Still so easy to tell what Wildbow's strengths and weaknesses are, almost like he hasn't really changed anything much about his writing since a decade ago. His character-work has improved a bit but overall I feel like the quality of his work tends to depend on whether he leans into his strengths or tries to grapple with the stuff he's not so great at. To the point that this can be observed on a chapter-by-chapter basis, not just between works. Overall I've enjoyed it. But his pacing still sucks. Not as tedious as Ward felt when I quit, or the slowest parts of Worm, but still some arcs that really drag. I would say most of the first ~11 arcs were really engaging to me, with occasional chapters of not so great stuff. Then there was a lull of fairly boring stuff for a while, another decent high for a few arcs, then another lull before improving now towards the ending again. I was actually really worried when the first lull was starting that it would be even worse than his previous work because as a work with three protagonists there is always the risk that one or more of their story-arcs will get really boring, but luckily it wasn't that big an issue. I overall think Pale probably has the most consistent cast of his work that I've read too - I'm not sure the most engaging of its characters quite measure up to my favorites from Worm, but I definitely don't feel like the worst ones with any real screentime are as bad as the most tedious, boring or annoying characters in Worm and Ward. In fact the only character I really dislike as part of the story so far is a really minor one (late Pale character stuff)Anselm is really weird and bad IMO, I get his portrayal and lack of focus matches Verona's preferences in relationships but it's still creepy when the story basically just treats him like a hunk of meat. All the other love interests/ex-love interests were actually done pretty well IMO, although Nora can sometimes be overwritten. Also I felt like WB didn't know how to keep Wallace/Jeremy in the story after the relationship issues but it felt strange to have them completely disappear. And while the characters themselves were fine, I could do without WB writing horny teens again, much as Verona is a good character otherwise. I agree that Ward struggled with the worldbuilding/mystery, which is usually one of WBs strengths. Pale has been a lot better with the former, and started really strong on the latter too, though that has dipped in the second half for sure.
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Nov 14, 2023 23:23
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Ward and Pact are the ones I would recommend against anyone reading at all, all Wildbow's other stories will have some decent number of people liking them. Ward for the aforementioned reasons, Pact for its relentless dedication to making its main characters lives worse at every single step
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Nov 15, 2023 01:27
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Almost everybody in this thread for a couple years talks entirely about how Worm sucks rear end, is a big pile of poo poo, and the author is a stupid probably-Nazi, and now like eight people say it's good? I don't know what I'm allowed to like
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Nov 15, 2023 01:32
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John Lee posted:Almost everybody in this thread for a couple years talks entirely about how Worm sucks rear end, is a big pile of poo poo, and the author is a stupid probably-Nazi, and now like eight people say it's good? you, specifically, are allowed to like nothing. everyone else can decide on their own what they like but you? none of it.
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Nov 15, 2023 02:15
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John Lee posted:Almost everybody in this thread for a couple years talks entirely about how Worm sucks rear end, is a big pile of poo poo, and the author is a stupid probably-Nazi, and now like eight people say it's good? worm literally worked by accident due to a die roll, it's coherent i think
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Nov 15, 2023 03:01
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John Lee posted:Almost everybody in this thread for a couple years talks entirely about how Worm sucks rear end, is a big pile of poo poo, and the author is a stupid probably-Nazi, and now like eight people say it's good? People can like what they like... But yes Worm and everything else Wildbow writes is trash.
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Nov 15, 2023 03:06
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Piell posted:Ward and Pact are the ones I would recommend against anyone reading at all, all Wildbow's other stories will have some decent number of people liking them. Ward for the aforementioned reasons, Pact for its relentless dedication to making its main characters lives worse at every single step Pact rules though.
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Nov 15, 2023 03:13
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I'm sick. I'm twisted. I actually really enjoyed Pact. The setting is really interesting, I liked pretty much all of the characters, and the ending made me happy. Blake and Evan get to live together as birds 
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Nov 15, 2023 03:21
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I liked Pact a lot, it was a painful ride but it was a fun one. I went into it seeing it as a slow train wreck of a setting, but that didn't make it a bad story. Worm was one of the big series that got me into web serials, it had its flaws but it was something I've reread at least three times in full. I disliked Ward and dropped it one or two arcs in, and I couldn't get into Twig at all. I am not sure I'd bother reading any future Wildbow stories, I think he got worse as time went on. I'm not sure how much reader input he had in the start, it could have been a case of listening to his readers and things getting worse for it, or the reverse.
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Nov 15, 2023 03:43
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John Lee posted:Almost everybody in this thread for a couple years talks entirely about how Worm sucks rear end, is a big pile of poo poo, and the author is a stupid probably-Nazi, and now like eight people say it's good? Anyone who says any of that is a loving moron and you should disregard everything they say tbh. Like yeah the story had problems, but they are over-exaggerated to the point of parody in this place sometimes.
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Nov 15, 2023 05:25
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John Lee posted:Almost everybody in this thread for a couple years talks entirely about how Worm sucks rear end, is a big pile of poo poo, and the author is a stupid probably-Nazi, and now like eight people say it's good? Not just that, if you go back to the start of the thread it's like 90% glowing praise for Worm. The thread tends to seesaw back and forth like that because goons love to be cynical and jaded about things. IMHO Worm isn't great overall, but it's decently written (even that low bar putting it well above 90% of webfiction) and has some quite interesting worldbuilding, particularly in terms of the variety and creative use of superpowers which goes a long way towards preventing fights from being about which character has higher levels of superstrength and superdurability than the other. I don't remember any solid evidence Wildbow is a Nazi though. He seems to possibly hate people in general, but I don't think he has particular ire for any specific ethnic groups.
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Nov 15, 2023 05:39
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Bremen posted:I don't remember any solid evidence Wildbow is a Nazi though. He seems to possibly hate people in general, but I don't think he has particular ire for any specific ethnic groups. He was an extremely sheltered guy that's lived his whole life in the rear end end of Alberta, Canada, and when he was first writing Worm basically everything he knew about anything outside of the bubble he grew up in came from movies and such, which informed a whole lot of the weird setting poo poo in Brockton Bay like the "asian" gang etc. He rightfully got a lot of criticism for that, and went out of his way to get out of that bubble, educate himself, and surround himself with people who had much more broad worldviews that were more than willing to call out any of that kind of poo poo. Like I said anyone saying poo poo like Wildbow is a nazi is a loving moron and you can completely disregard anything they say.
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Nov 15, 2023 05:54
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Bremen posted:I don't remember any solid evidence Wildbow is a Nazi though. He seems to possibly hate people in general, but I don't think he has particular ire for any specific ethnic groups. Yeah, it was somebody going "Wow, there's not a lot of effort put into realistic gang behavior, but the structure of the Neo-Nazi gang sure is accurate suspiciously accurate, if you ask me where did Wildbow come by such detailed knowledge of how Nazis operate? who can say"
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Nov 15, 2023 06:10
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John Lee posted:Yeah, it was somebody going "Wow, there's not a lot of effort put into realistic gang behavior, but the structure of the Neo-Nazi gang sure is accurate  It... really is not, lol absolutely nothing about any of the gangs are realistic, but I also don't really think it matters if they are or not because that's not the kind of story Worm is trying to tell The Fallen in Ward, on the other hand, are informed pretty heavily by how cults work in real life because he did the research, probably at least partially because of how much flak he got for the gangs in Worm being such a mess.
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Nov 15, 2023 06:15
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The correct reason to enjoy Worm is for reasons like how Coil is seven and a half feet tall by a strict reading of the text. Or imagining any of Dragon's lines in a heavy Newfoundland accent.
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Nov 15, 2023 06:48
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Fajita Queen posted:
I'll allow a lot of leeway on gang structure in Worm, since like 70% of the population of the planet is dead and power can be and is directly enforced by the insane personal power of individuals, both of which are gonna dramatically change organizational structures
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Nov 15, 2023 08:21
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John Lee posted:Almost everybody in this thread for a couple years talks entirely about how Worm sucks rear end, is a big pile of poo poo, and the author is a stupid probably-Nazi, and now like eight people say it's good? goons and goon opinions are bad just ignore them
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Nov 15, 2023 10:43
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John Lee posted:I'll allow a lot of leeway on gang structure in Worm, since like 70% of the population of the planet is dead and power can be and is directly enforced by the insane personal power of individuals, both of which are gonna dramatically change organizational structures Not really. Number Man gives a population number for Earth Bet in 2011 that's basically the same as the population number for our Earth in 2011 (edit: it's a difference of 1%.) The dystopian, apocalyptic elements of Earth Bet's culture and society are drastically overstated by the Worm fandom. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Nov 15, 2023 |
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Nov 15, 2023 13:53
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Wildbow writes misery porn, and arguing with his fans is exhausting because they love to suffer. It’s largely a problem solved by not engaging with it and letting entropy carry them off. I tell my friends not to waste their time, and my opinion is upthread about why I think he’s not worth the effort. Meanwhile, I have been wasting my time rereading the calamitous bob, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. Solfis is great, more stories should have Alfreds.
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Nov 15, 2023 14:54
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Anias posted:Wildbow writes misery porn, and arguing with his fans is exhausting because they love to suffer. It’s largely a problem solved by not engaging with it and letting entropy carry them off. I tell my friends not to waste their time, and my opinion is upthread about why I think he’s not worth the effort. Calamitous Bob rules, definitely recommended(and I agree with the rest of your post)
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Nov 15, 2023 16:50
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John Lee posted:Almost everybody in this thread for a couple years talks entirely about how Worm sucks rear end, is a big pile of poo poo, and the author is a stupid probably-Nazi, and now like eight people say it's good? Worm's just a divisive story, with an even more divisive sequel, written by a divisive author. It just lends itself to discussion where people are at odds with one another about it.
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Nov 15, 2023 17:09
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Fajita Queen posted:Anyone who says any of that is a loving moron and you should disregard everything they say tbh. Like yeah the story had problems, but they are over-exaggerated to the point of parody in this place sometimes. I disagree, and here's why. Literary criticism has always been inseparable from bizarrely histrionic takes. The two have been friends since the advent of literature. If you discard people's opinions because they said something really out there on a related subject, you'll be throwing out a whole host of babies with the bathwater.
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Nov 15, 2023 17:35
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Not really. Number Man gives a population number for Earth Bet in 2011 that's basically the same as the population number for our Earth in 2011 (edit: it's a difference of 1%.) The dystopian, apocalyptic elements of Earth Bet's culture and society are drastically overstated by the Worm fandom. Sorry I can't be more specific, because I'm not gonna read through Worm again right now to find out, but I recall running into something quite a ways into Worm that made me memorably go "holy poo poo that's a lot of dead people globally, dunno if that counts as a twist but what a way to bury the lead" Of course,one or the other of these could have been some kind of mistake!
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Nov 15, 2023 18:27
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Not really. Number Man gives a population number for Earth Bet in 2011 that's basically the same as the population number for our Earth in 2011 (edit: it's a difference of 1%.) The dystopian, apocalyptic elements of Earth Bet's culture and society are drastically overstated by the Worm fandom. The story is fairly contradictory about the state of the world. We're told that major cities have been destroyed and global shipping isn't a thing, but also the world is somehow almost identical to the real world in spite of that. This is a fairly standard thing in superhero fiction, but it feels weirder in Worm because of how it deconstructs many of the standard tropes but then just does a "idk cauldron is making things work" for why the world is so unchanged. The fanbase certainly does overstate things, though. People seem to confuse "Kyushu is gone" for "Japan is gone" an awful lot.
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Nov 15, 2023 19:47
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Anias posted:Wildbow writes misery porn, and arguing with his fans is exhausting because they love to suffer. It’s largely a problem solved by not engaging with it and letting entropy carry them off. I tell my friends not to waste their time, and my opinion is upthread about why I think he’s not worth the effort. 
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Nov 15, 2023 21:50
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John Lee posted:Sorry I can't be more specific, because I'm not gonna read through Worm again right now to find out, but I recall running into something quite a ways into Worm that made me memorably go "holy poo poo that's a lot of dead people globally, dunno if that counts as a twist but what a way to bury the lead" Could be the Golden Morning? But Number Man cites global population as being just under seven billion. However, he does it in a context of, paraphrasing, 'If we don't stop Scion now, in a decade 40% of the world's population will be dead, leaving us with x.' Which I think is where the confusion comes from. But if you run the numbers he cites, you get a present world 2011 Earth Bet population of just under seven billion. Plorkyeran posted:The story is fairly contradictory about the state of the world. We're told that major cities have been destroyed and global shipping isn't a thing, but also the world is somehow almost identical to the real world in spite of that. This is a fairly standard thing in superhero fiction, but it feels weirder in Worm because of how it deconstructs many of the standard tropes but then just does a "idk cauldron is making things work" for why the world is so unchanged. I think both of those are exaggerations, though! Global shipping is still a thing, although it has been affected by Leviathan, but the damage is fairly incidental. I think the nature of major cities being destroyed was similar (and, if I remember correctly, the definition of major city was very broad, it wasn't meaning metropolitan centers.) But the death of global shipping is basically fanon as I don't think Worm says much either way, and Wildbow's WoG comments were basically, no, shipping still exists except every so often port cities get attacked which messes things up a bit. Brockton Bay doesn't lack shipping because of Leviathan, it doesn't have shipping because of the local economic problems and someone sinking a ship in the bay. What people forget about the world is the assessment of it about halfway through which is basically 'the peaks are higher, the valleys are lower' in respect to the view of one of the other Earths: tl;dr -- the average state is generally the same. That's not to say that the presentation of the world remains consistent -- it doesn't. Early Worm and Late Worm really present aspects of the world very differently.
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Nov 15, 2023 22:03
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SupSup 106: I guess Lute is about to reveal that it's possible to do wordchains without paying them off, and that this is a secret only a few humans (namely the Velras) know (but there's obviously something bad about it, since it's effectively described as "unhealthy"). Curious what's going to become of Alden's warning. I feel like it might work (at least with some of the victims), since Manon's ability seems to require constant "maintenance" and she won't be around to counter-act Alden's words/actions. Based on the chapter with Manon's PoV, I get the impression her power works by letting her emphasize/de-emphasize peoples' already existing thoughts/feelings. So with Alden himself, she was probably only able to (temporarily, before Boe/Jeremy pointed it out) make Alden think positively about her because Alden is generally a nice person. So she de-emphasized his suspicion and highlighted his natural "desire to get along with people and assume the best about them." I think Lute's speculation about the Artonans' intended use is likely pretty spot-on - the power is likely intended to do things like remove unwanted distractions from your mind. Also feel bad for Lute. I wonder if the reason his classmates hate him so much is just because of the Velra stigma. Milkfred E. Moore posted:Not really. Number Man gives a population number for Earth Bet in 2011 that's basically the same as the population number for our Earth in 2011 (edit: it's a difference of 1%.) The dystopian, apocalyptic elements of Earth Bet's culture and society are drastically overstated by the Worm fandom. Speaking of Number Man, I think his power was my least favorite in a story that is otherwise generally quite good about interesting and consistent super-powers. As best I can tell, his power was basically "can do everything perfectly because everything technically involves Numbers/Math," and that there were effectively no limits to this. His power was functionally just a somewhat lesser version of Fortuna's (I think that's the name of the lady who had the "literally execute anything perfectly" power - this one bothered me less because there was an actual plot explanation for it and it did exactly what it says on the box). Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Nov 15, 2023 |
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Nov 15, 2023 23:40
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Ytlaya posted:
Big spoilers. Do not read if you haven't read Worm. You have to remember how the shards are normally set up, heavily restricted. Number Man was one of cauldron's major wins IIRC. They tried hard to get shard access as non-limited as possible, because they knew Scion would have every shard running at 100% with no deliberate nerfs. I think he was an example of a success, and his bullshit perfect calculation was amusing as long as stuff like that is uncommon.
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Nov 15, 2023 23:52
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Kalas posted:Big spoilers. Do not read if you haven't read Worm. I think my issue is that the power conceptually doesn't make a lot of sense. There's a big difference between some sort of "perfect calculation" power and being able to take those perfect calculations and turn them into "perfect movement." I think that was my biggest problem with it. Fortuna didn't have this issue, since "perfect execution" was the explicit nature of her power. I think "Number Man manipulating the economy" is a reasonable application of his power, for example. Or even something like "Number Man predicting the weather." And maybe some level of combat application, like "predicting trajectory." But knowing all the math wouldn't suddenly make you capable of perfect bodily movement (unless you interpret the power in such an incredibly broad way that it just literally becomes a sort of omnipotence and synonymous with Fortuna's power). edit: Added spoiler tags just because a description of the characters' powers is a bit of a spoiler
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Nov 15, 2023 23:58
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Ytlaya posted:SupSup 106: I guess Lute is about to reveal that it's possible to do wordchains without paying them off, and that this is a secret only a few humans (namely the Velras) know (but there's obviously something bad about it, since it's effectively described as "unhealthy"). (SupSup 106) The use of "healthy" and the unclear relationship between magic and chaos makes me suspect that higher-power and/or larger-effect wordchains can be done incorrectly without just failing entirely, the way weaker ones do. A person might be able to deliberately do them wrong such that they offload the debt, but I'd suspect that's part of the reason for the ledgers and for why Lute watching over Alden's wordchain history is described as "taking responsibility." If this is the case, then the fact that Lute isn't taking it deadly seriously likely says bad things about the Velras and their wordchain ethics. It'd be interesting if that's a legitimate reason the family is disliked and distrusted, but the actual reason's been lost to secrecy and from it being passed from person to person over decades. Kalas posted:Big spoilers. Do not read if you haven't read Worm. (Worm spoilers toward the end) Nope, Number Man's a natural trigger. He was enlisted by a villain with Jack Slash for a while before they killed him because he was abusive and he made them kill people. He's just very good with using his power for violent ends, in part because of what shards are, in part because if he wasn't good at it then said villain would have killed him.
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Nov 16, 2023 00:00
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