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gurragadon posted:I don't agree with it. But you were wrong and talking about the wrong document. That is why it's important to keep the documents up for media literacy. Has anyone here advocated taking the documents down?
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Nov 16, 2023 17:03
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:They clearly aren't reacting to something they didn't know was happening and hadn't consumed, though. Seems like this is a problem entirely of the making of the American government and it’s unflinching support for Israel, and the mainstream media’s unquestioning acceptance of everything Israel says, when they even bother talking about the issue at all (which may have to do with why some zoom era and younger are only hearing about this now).
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Nov 16, 2023 17:03
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gurragadon posted:I don't agree with it. But you were wrong and talking about the wrong document. That is why it's important to keep the documents up for media literacy. Oh I agree, especially since anyone googling "Bin Laden Letter" because they're curious about what everyone agrees about will now get the much worse letter. But I've never said anything different. Nucleic Acids posted:Seems like this is a problem entirely of the making of the American government and it’s unflinching support for Israel, and the mainstream media’s unquestioning acceptance of everything Israel says, when they even bother talking about the issue at all (which may have to do with why some zoom era and younger are only hearing about this now). One has nothing to do with the other.
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Nov 16, 2023 17:03
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zoux posted:Oh I agree, especially since anyone googling "Bin Laden Letter" because they're curious about what everyone agrees about will now get the much worse letter. But I've never said anything different. Sorry I must have misunderstood you then. I thought you were getting at that with not "teaching the controversy" remark but I read that wrong.
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Nov 16, 2023 17:06
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The House Ethics Committee just put out a huge report on George Santos. I haven't had a chance to read it, but the summary page at the top is already pretty wild. The Chairman will move to expel Santos from Congress and Santos says he will not run for re-election. The House Ethics Committee vote to recommend expulsion and to certify the details in the report are true was unanimous.
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Nov 16, 2023 17:07
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They've also referred their findings to the justice Dept.
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Nov 16, 2023 17:09
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zoux posted:One has nothing to do with the other. The two are completely intertwined given the influence held by the government in terms of how it controls sources and virtually every journalist cares more about preserving access than examining it what they’ve been told is true. CNN uncritically ram Israeli propaganda footage of the Hamas Terror Basement featuring a calendar that listed the days of the week on Arabic, and Joe Biden not only reaffirmed Israel’s right to attack a hospital but repeated the beheaded babes hoax (something CNN helped promulgate). They feed off of each other. Nucleic Acids fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Nov 16, 2023 |
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Nov 16, 2023 17:09
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Nucleic Acids posted:The two are completely intertwined given the influence held by the government in terms of how it controls sources and virtually every journalist cares more about preserving access than examining it what they’ve been told is true. Right, but none of these OBL letter likers watch that stuff. You seem to want to argue "Resolved: The American mass media is overwhelmingly on the side of Israel" to which I would not necessarily disagree. https://twitter.com/Phil_Lewis_/status/1725179864787956110 OH so it's unethical to look your best and support sex workers huh
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Nov 16, 2023 17:14
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zoux posted:Right, but none of these OBL letter likers watch that stuff. You seem to want to argue "Resolved: The American mass media is overwhelmingly on the side of Israel" to which I would not necessarily disagree. No, what I’m saying is that when someone can go on TikTok and see a Palestinian father run into a tent carrying what’s left of his children in garbage bags, a child with a hole blown straight through their head, and children cut in half by JDAMS, and then go turn on CNN and see some American or Israeli media mouthpiece or think tank ghoul downplaying or denying these things, they will correctly realize ‘oh, I am being lied to,’ and start searching for other sources. The quality might be very dark.
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Nov 16, 2023 17:20
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Nucleic Acids posted:No, what I’m saying is that when someone can go on TikTok and see a Palestinian father run into a tent carrying what’s left of his children in garbage bags, a child with a hole blown straight through their head, and children cut in half by JDAMS, and then go turn on CNN and see some American or Israeli media mouthpiece or think tank ghoul downplaying or denying these things, they will correctly realize ‘oh, I am being lied to,’ and start searching for other sources. The quality might be very dark. I understand, and where we disagree is the "and then go turn on CNN" part. My contention, based on the significant number of under-30s that get their news only from social media, is that they don't go turn on CNN to see the lies. That's why I don't see the two issues as related.
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Nov 16, 2023 17:23
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zoux posted:I understand, and where we disagree is the "and then go turn on CNN" part. My contention, based on the significant number of under-30s that get their news only from social media, is that they don't go turn on CNN to see the lies. That's why I don't see the two issues as related. Pretty sure CNN uses TikTok to promote their content. Looks like they have literally millions of followers too. https://www.tiktok.com/@cnn?lang=en#:~:text=CNN%20(%40cnn)%20Official%20%7C%20TikTok
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Nov 16, 2023 17:27
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zoux posted:I understand, and where we disagree is the "and then go turn on CNN" part. My contention, based on the significant number of under-30s that get their news only from social media, is that they don't go turn on CNN to see the lies. That's why I don't see the two issues as related. They don't need to go turn on CNN. They can just scroll to the next video, and watch a clip of Anderson Cooper downplaying it. We do this on SA all the time, where we post clips of cable news.
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Nov 16, 2023 17:31
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tractor fanatic posted:Kids are going down this rabbit hole because they are seeing their government and media openly lying to them and gaslighting them about a genocide. For them, "media literacy" means the entirety of Western media has no credibility and should be disregarded. Can you give me an example of the "media lyting to them" about what I assume is the Israel-Palestinian conflict? I didn't pay attention much to the media when I was a kid in the early 2000s, but I see a generally even-handed approach to the conflict in non-far-right media right now. They are going down the rabbit hole not only about this, but everything. Not even young kids. My brother, for example, who is not a kid, has been conspiratorial about everything from Ukraine to a "cover-up in East Palestine" for a long time now, and he's a widely-read leftist. Imagine if you're even younger and more malleable, how easy it is fall into bullshit nowadays, even with a world of good information at your fingertips. Like, it's actually pretty easy to get a good high-level understanding of the conflict just by reading Wikipedia. You won't be a scholar and you won't be very nuanced, but you will more or less understand what's happening. Instead, people get their info from Tik Tok and YouTube. Edit: and yes, younger kids have poorer media literacy than even boomers now. They're more likely to fall for scams, do crypto poo poo, and fall into a rabbit hole. It's actually pretty remarkable, and there is a notable difference in this literacy between Millennials and Gen Z. small butter fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Nov 16, 2023 |
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Nov 16, 2023 17:38
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zoux posted:I understand, and where we disagree is the "and then go turn on CNN" part. My contention, based on the significant number of under-30s that get their news only from social media, is that they don't go turn on CNN to see the lies. That's why I don't see the two issues as related. Where are you seeing these numbers of under-30s that get their news ONLY from social media?
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Nov 16, 2023 17:39
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small butter posted:Can you give me an example of the "media lyting to them" about what I assume is the Israel-Palestinian conflict? I didn't pay attention much to the media when I was a kid in the early 2000s, but I see a generally even-handed approach to the conflict in non-far-right media right now. You could start by analyzing the kind of media your socialist brother consumes. You say he’s a “widely read leftist” so what kind of books is he reading?
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Nov 16, 2023 17:41
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"Western" and "mainstream" media continue to not be useful terms if you're trying to understand media functions. Tiktok videos are both.
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Nov 16, 2023 17:45
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tractor fanatic posted:They don't need to go turn on CNN. They can just scroll to the next video, and watch a clip of Anderson Cooper downplaying it. We do this on SA all the time, where we post clips of cable news. If someone’s exposure to a particular news source is 1 minute snippets created by whoever happens to pop up in their feed, then they are in no way in a position to be assessing the credibility of those sources. What a bizarre argument.
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Nov 16, 2023 17:48
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Baronash posted:If someone’s exposure to a particular news source is 1 minute snippets created by whoever happens to pop up in their feed, then they are in no way in a position to be assessing the credibility of those sources. What a bizarre argument. It's actually incredibly easy to determine the credibility of a source when you can see dozens of examples of a day of claims like Israel is doing targeted strikes and Israel is doing everything it can to avoid civilian casualties being bald faced lies.
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Nov 16, 2023 17:51
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Nucleic Acids posted:It's actually incredibly easy to determine the credibility of a source when you can see dozens of examples of a day of claims like Israel is doing targeted strikes and Israel is doing everything it can to avoid civilian casualties being bald faced lies. Osama Bin Laden: A Credible Source (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 16, 2023 17:53
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Baronash posted:If someone’s exposure to a particular news source is 1 minute snippets created by whoever happens to pop up in their feed, then they are in no way in a position to be assessing the credibility of those sources. What a bizarre argument. 1-minute snippets aren’t what creators want, it’s what consumers choose. Forcing social media creators and consumers to abide by stringent regulations that control the size and content of the media products they consume would be what authoritarian nations like Cuba do. BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Nov 16, 2023 |
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Nov 16, 2023 17:54
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CNN and CNN Tik Tok are ironically talking about the exact same thing. Alex Baldwin's accidentally shooting somebody. Looking at their Tik Tok it's just the stories they talk about all day on CNN but a short clip instead. https://www.tiktok.com/@cnn?lang=en
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Nov 16, 2023 17:56
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gurragadon posted:CNN and CNN Tik Tok are ironically talking about the exact same thing. Alex Baldwin's accidentally shooting somebody. Looking at their Tik Tok it's just the stories they talk about all day on CNN but a short clip instead. Why is it ironic that CNN's Tiktok is just replaying what is on CNN?
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Nov 16, 2023 17:57
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RBA Starblade posted:Osama Bin Laden: A Credible Source Wow, it's incredible that I said that!
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Nov 16, 2023 17:57
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Why is it ironic that CNN's Tiktok is just replaying what is on CNN? Ironic was the wrong word. Maybe interesting would be better with the conversation where it currently is, but I think CNN Tik Tok is a pretty good representation of CNN the channel.
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Nov 16, 2023 17:59
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Baronash posted:If someone’s exposure to a particular news source is 1 minute snippets created by whoever happens to pop up in their feed, then they are in no way in a position to be assessing the credibility of those sources. What a bizarre argument. My contention is that CNN's credibility is shot because Israel is committing genocide in Gaza and CNN is refusing to call a spade a spade. The easy way for CNN to remedy this for them to just say "Israel is committing genocide", and then they can post this on TikTok in nice, digestible 30 second clips.
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Nov 16, 2023 18:02
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The WaPo has published an article on domestic shootings. Warning: It contains survivor accounts and very graphic photos from some of the worst shootings America has had. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/11/16/about-ar-15-graphic-content/ Why the WaPo is publishing the below story. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/interactive/2023/ar-15-force-mass-shootings/?itid=hp-top-table-main_p001_f001 NSFW. Probably NSFL. Zotix fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Nov 16, 2023 |
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Nov 16, 2023 18:04
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Because it literally opens with talk about "the Jewish problem" and decadent western value and it's not really great that some people are "having their eyes opened" by it. The rest of it just basic "Europe and the U.S. killed people in the middle east, so don't be surprised when we try to kill you back." and "corporations bad" that you can read anywhere. Have you seen the Die Linke spilt in the news. Chunk of the German left just spilt off into “Social Chauvinists” or “left conservatives“? There is an ongoing international effort to radicalize folks who are critical of a capitalist liberal bourgeoisie democracy into nationalist socialists. The horrific events in I/P are a huge boon to those folks. Expect everything to get much crazier as the primaries wrap up and we get into the election season. Watch people who are nodes in extremely specific demographics, the ones connected to many other people by some niche shared interest, “influencers” but for single interests. They aren’t representative of the demographics they target but are trying to change those demographics, and it’s hugely harmful even if they only pick off single digit percentages.
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Nov 16, 2023 18:11
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Have you seen the Die Linke spilt in the news. Chunk of the German left just spilt off into “Social Chauvinists” or “left conservatives“? We can see a startling example of that exact dynamic in the case of David Depape, the guy who attacked Paul Pelosi with a hammer. quote:DePape said that he had a plan to root out corruption in America. He intended to travel the country kidnapping politicians and progressive thinkers, including Nancy Pelosi, Gavin Newsom and Hunter Biden. He said listening to podcasts led him to believe a cabal of elites ran the country and were trampling on the rights of Americans. He also thought "the media' was lying about everything quote:DePape rattled off a long list of grievances — many of which regularly echo through far right circles — that led to the night he broke into the Pelosi home. He specifically blamed CNN quote:He said he believed news outlets repeatedly lied about Trump, and specifically mentioned CNN. In rants posted on a blog and online forum that were taken down after his arrest, DePape echoed the baseless, right-wing QAnon conspiracy theory that claims the U.S. government is run by a cabal of devil-worshipping pedophiles, but he did not mention that Tuesday.
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Nov 16, 2023 18:21
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small butter posted:Can you give me an example of the "media lyting to them" about what I assume is the Israel-Palestinian conflict? I didn't pay attention much to the media when I was a kid in the early 2000s, but I see a generally even-handed approach to the conflict in non-far-right media right now. https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/10/middleeast/israel-kibbutzim-kfar-aza-beeri-urim-hamas-attack-intl/index.html https://www.businessinsider.com/biden-pictures-terrorists-beheading-children-white-house-2023-10 https://ca.news.yahoo.com/israel-hamas-war-unverified-claim-beheaded-babies-misinformation-214727885.html Glad CNN apologized on Twitter of all places for breathlessly airing the Israeli government's fake news: https://twitter.com/sarasidnerCNN/status/1712415116363169884 Just grabbing a couple stories about how US intelligence has determined that Israel did not cause the blast. Note that these are prior to their own internal analyses, so these are essentially parroting the views of government officials. But of course they don't use the words "claim" or "alleged" for the US or Israel governments. The US government "says" or "determines" in the mainstream press. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/18/us/politics/hospital-gaza-us-intelligence.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/israel-latest-macron-lands-talks-051336912.html Only later do we get actual analysis: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/10/26/gaza-hospital-blast-evidence-israel-hamas/ https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/24/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-israel-hamas-video.html Both WaPo and the NYT agree that the video cited by the IDF and the Biden administration taken from Al Jazeera had nothing to do with the hospital blast. Funnily enough, right-wing-leaning (as of purchase a few years ago apparently) site Newsweek has been one of the better ones so far in this conflict, reporting on IDF's changing story: https://www.newsweek.com/deleted-israeli-video-adds-confusion-around-gaza-hospital-blast-1835596 These are multiple instances of Israel and the Biden administration lying to push propaganda in their favor, with mainstream media outlets breathlessly reporting on it without any immediate questioning or pushback. No requests of evidence or anything, just mouthpieces. Only later do the actual analysts look into it and determine that there's lying going on. Yes, you can say that "actually, they are only reporting statements and claims by officials" but the fact is that they are much less willing to scrutinize the US or Israeli government compared to the Palestinian one. By presenting these claims without highlighting they are unverified, they are having the effect of pushing them as true. US and Israel government officials don't "claim" or "allege", they "say" or "determine". That CNN headline at the top is particularly egregious: "Children found ‘butchered’ in Israeli kibbutz, IDF says, as horror of Hamas’ attacks near border begins to emerge". The "horror of Hamas' attacks near border begins to emerge" part is not a claim made by the IDF, it's CNN using the alleged (and now proven fake) claim by the IDF to push CNN's assertion that it represents the horrific nature of Hamas. And it's not like CNN has stopped with their breathless reporting of government bullshit propaganda: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cnn-video-report-nic-robertson-israel-military-al-rantisi-hospital_n_6554dc3ce4b0e47670125cf7 This time they went ahead and edited all their videos to remove the lies and then pretended it was for "length". koolkal fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Nov 16, 2023 |
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Nov 16, 2023 18:21
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small butter posted:Edit: and yes, younger kids have poorer media literacy than even boomers now. They're more likely to fall for scams, do crypto poo poo, and fall into a rabbit hole. It's actually pretty remarkable, and there is a notable difference in this literacy between Millennials and Gen Z. If this were true then the average millennial or Gen-Z person would be less likely to believe in anthropogenic climate change than an older person but this is clearly not the case. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-r...-other-factors/ BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Nov 16, 2023 |
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Nov 16, 2023 18:26
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BUUNNI posted:If this were true then the average Gen-Z person would be less likely to believe in anthropogenic climate change than an older person but this is clearly not the case. What? That doesn't follow at all. If I believe in anthropogenic climate change and that vaccines have microchips implanted in them by Bill Gates to control our mind, then that doesn't mean I am more savvy at media literacy than someone who does not think Bill Gates is trying to control our minds who doesn't know anything about climate change.
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Nov 16, 2023 18:30
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BUUNNI posted:If this were true then the average Gen-Z person would be less likely to believe in anthropogenic climate change than an older person but this is clearly not the case. "Younger kids have poorer media literacy than even boomers" does not imply "pick any subject and, on that subject, younger generations are more likely to be incorrect than older generations." It's very possible that younger generations are, overall, less able to identify correct information in the media, but that there are some issues where they're more likely to believe the truth. I don't think it's the case that younger generations have poorer media literacy - certainly not compared to older generations when they were the same age - but your reasoning sucks.
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Nov 16, 2023 18:31
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You can go to the source and see how the TikTok conversation is playing out. It seems to me to be a back-and-forth with a lot of views represented, not just teens being edgelords. A lot of what I'm seeing on TikTok centers around realizing that the American public was fed a lot of misinformation about the motives of the 9/11 terrorists. I don't know what they teach kids these days in schools about 9/11, but reading between the lines, it's a lot closer to "they hated us for our freedom" or "they just love killing" than "they were trying to halt what they see as a genocidal imperialist war machine by terrorizing U.S. civilians to draw us into unending wars of occupation that we can't win." This kind of misinformation fails us in a lot of ways, and we're seeing some of it in the subset of people who realize they're getting lied to and then glom onto the words of a vicious anti-Semite and terrorist. Some TikTokers are focusing on the fact that there is a cogent argument against U.S. imperialism in there and ignoring the fact that it opens with an argument that Jews control finance and a vast Jewish conspiracy is impoverishing Americans (or they're opening themselves up to agreeing with the anti-Semitism in it).
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Nov 16, 2023 18:34
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:What? That doesn't follow at all. Post the evidence showing that boomers are less likely to be antivaxxers then. Or evidence about any topic showing younger generations attitudes. I’m genuinely curious.
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Nov 16, 2023 18:38
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https://twitter.com/IAPolls2022/status/1724940242744954967 Is Fox still using a high quality normie pollster or did they jettison them after 2020? Assuming high quality and not a rigged poll, this I think would give more credence to "the polling is fucky" as these don't comport with the election outcomes we've been seeing over the last 2 years. "Democrats are popular but Biden isn't" was one argument against that, but this poll shows that all democrats are performing equally as poor as Biden. zoux fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Nov 16, 2023 |
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Nov 16, 2023 18:52
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zoux posted:https://twitter.com/IAPolls2022/status/1724940242744954967 Every poll is a three variable problem 1- who answers 2- how you multiply the "who answers" to an expected voter turnout 3- what the answers are A "High Quality" pollster a year out from an election is just guessing at who will Pokemon Go To The Polls at this stage, especially before the campaigns spend a billion dollars on finding issues that will drive voters to vote for a specific presidential candidate and hammering them twenty times a day across every single media platform.
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Nov 16, 2023 19:03
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Zotix posted:The WaPo has published an article on domestic shootings. Warning: It contains survivor accounts and very graphic photos from some of the worst shootings America has had. For those who can stomach it, I feel like this is bordering on required reading as a civic duty. It's not long, but it hits hard. Hard. Everything there is devastating, but those Uvalde pics...jesus loving christ.
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Nov 16, 2023 19:04
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zoux posted:We can see a startling example of that exact dynamic in the case of David Depape, the guy who attacked Paul Pelosi with a hammer. Yeah a fair number of leftists I know have started repeating right wing propaganda as fact, it's like the idea of "think critically about what this person is trying to convince you of" part of their brain gets shut off the moment that thing is critical of America because America/the dems = bad therefore anything that is against them must be good. I'm unsure how to counteract that because they refuse to look at basically any sources because it's all "media lies" and only believe what's being told to them in their echo chambers. It feels exactly like what happened with my friends parents when they started going down the fox news hole.
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Nov 16, 2023 19:04
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socialsecurity posted:Yeah a fair number of leftists I know have started repeating right wing propaganda as fact, it's like the idea of "think critically about what this person is trying to convince you of" part of their brain gets shut off the moment that thing is critical of America because America/the dems = bad therefore anything that is against them must be good. I also know a fair number of liberals that started repeating right wing propaganda as facts.
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Nov 16, 2023 19:09
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BUUNNI posted:I also know a fair number of liberals that started repeating right wing propaganda as facts. Seems like it's a widespread problem then, we really don't have a thread for discussing propaganda/media literacy anymore do we?
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Nov 16, 2023 19:11
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