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Neurolimal posted:https://twitter.com/PalestineRCS/status/1725164334769197466 It’s absolutely wild that despite decades of violence and intense surveillance, the Israelis seem to really have no idea where Hamas’ command infrastructure is, where its military equipment is, and where the hostages are, now more than a month into this active military campaign. In the ‘just dig holes to see if they can find tunnels’ and ‘maybe we got the hospital name wrong’ stage
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Nov 16, 2023 22:20
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In retrospect it shouldn't be that crazy; it's not like they have X-ray vision, and their approach to punishing Gaza naturally incentivizes building underground where they can't see. The best they can do is blackmail Gazans into becoming informants, but....Well, despite how much effort Hamas has put into being more acceptable on an international scale, they still freely execute informants when they find them. Maybe at some point they actually had incredible & legendary super-intelligence, maybe it was always a cultural invention, either way it's clear post-Oct 7 that Israel's military and intelligence are just as incompetent as any other Western state's, if not even more hamstrung by incredible racism.
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Nov 16, 2023 22:32
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Jaxyon posted:And remember if they don't leave, it's because Hamas was holding them back, so it's just a crying shame they have to die but it's certainly not Israel's fault. No evidence, this isn't happening at all. Hamas doesn't want Palestinians dead, every Hamas militant is a Palestinian themselves. They want freedom, and for Israel to leave them alone.
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Nov 16, 2023 22:32
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I said come in! posted:No evidence, this isn't happening at all. Hamas doesn't want Palestinians dead, every Hamas militant is a Palestinian themselves. They want freedom, and for Israel to leave them alone. Ok gently caress Israel. But if Hamas didn't want Palestinians dead then I don't know what the hell they expected to happen after going on a murderous rampage inside Israel?
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Nov 16, 2023 22:51
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That they'd exchange hostages for prisoners.
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Nov 16, 2023 22:55
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Neurolimal posted:In retrospect it shouldn't be that crazy; it's not like they have X-ray vision, and their approach to punishing Gaza naturally incentivizes building underground where they can't see. The best they can do is blackmail Gazans into becoming informants, but....Well, despite how much effort Hamas has put into being more acceptable on an international scale, they still freely execute informants when they find them. Exempting Hamas' SOP with informants, another point is that why would any Palestinian become an informant now? It's not like the Israelis are going to rehouse them or let them stay in Gaza. They've made their intentions know and the Palestinians aren't a part of it, so why cooperate? I recall something happened with the Nazis in Russia and the Eastern Front: at first, they'd got collaborators to hunt down partisans but after they started massacre whole villages et al, the collaborators stopped working with them gathering intelligence since they knew they'd be next against wall after the partisans got hunted down.
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Nov 16, 2023 22:58
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Neurolimal posted:In retrospect it shouldn't be that crazy; it's not like they have X-ray vision, and their approach to punishing Gaza naturally incentivizes building underground where they can't see. The best they can do is blackmail Gazans into becoming informants, but....Well, despite how much effort Hamas has put into being more acceptable on an international scale, they still freely execute informants when they find them. Yeah, the assertions that Israel has some super intelligence state that permeates all of Gaza have always been pretty magical thinking. The hospital is a good example, where Israel's spy faries are able to describe what's in the hospital and how there is actually a secret complex underneath the surface, but somehow never saw any actual construction going on. They bomb an ambulance 2 km from the border and say it had some Hamas agents in it, how did you know that? Their claims require either godly omniscience over the area or a group of on the ground pro-israel Palestinian informants that blankets the entirety of Gaza, and the former is more likely to be real.
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Nov 16, 2023 22:59
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Charliegrs posted:Ok gently caress Israel. But if Hamas didn't want Palestinians dead then I don't know what the hell they expected to happen after going on a murderous rampage inside Israel? They did not expect to be as successful as they were and that it would be a black eye, some prisoner trades, and a way to provoke Israel into doing something that would upset other countries and draw attention to their actions. The got the last part right even if it isn't actually doing much to hold Israel back.
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Nov 16, 2023 23:01
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Young Freud posted:Exempting Hamas' SOP with informants, another point is that why would any Palestinian become an informant now? It's not like the Israelis are going to rehouse them or let them stay in Gaza. They've made their intentions know and the Palestinians aren't a part of it, so why cooperate? Some of the most infamous SS volunteers like the latvians and ukrainians that Canada loves so much we’re primarily operating in ‘44-45
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Nov 16, 2023 23:02
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:That they'd exchange hostages for prisoners.
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Nov 16, 2023 23:03
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Charliegrs posted:Ok gently caress Israel. But if Hamas didn't want Palestinians dead then I don't know what the hell they expected to happen after going on a murderous rampage inside Israel? Bibi was sort of notorious for reacting to kidnappings and raids by launching missiles at Hamas and then working a backroom deal trading prisoners for hostages and temporary peace. This created a perverse incentive to do terrorism for brownie points domestically and concessions from Israel
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Nov 16, 2023 23:03
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Charliegrs posted:Ok gently caress Israel. But if Hamas didn't want Palestinians dead then I don't know what the hell they expected to happen after going on a murderous rampage inside Israel? That there would be an exchange of prisoners. I really don't think Hamas can be blamed for how Israel chose to react. Regardless of what happened, Israel still holds all of the power over Palestinians, and they always have. The power dynamic from the start of this 80 year occupation has been that Israel has massive overpowering might over Palestinians, and they love to exercise that might over them to keep them scared and humiliated. Especially those trapped in Gaza. So it was only a matter of time before something like October 7 took place. Every militant in Hamas has lost someone due to Israel's cruelty. I can't even begin to imagine how massive Hamas is going to grow after this war, or even a new more extreme group is going to form out of this. Israel has only themselves to blame.
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Nov 16, 2023 23:04
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Hamas can not be blamed for their actions, they are blameless (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 16, 2023 23:05
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah, Hamas is very stupid. The idea that someone would negotiate for hostages after you just killed 6x as many people and are promising to repeat that rampage is idiotic. I honestly dont think the massive number of civilian casualties was part of the plan.
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Nov 16, 2023 23:06
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CuddleCryptid posted:Yeah, the assertions that Israel has some super intelligence state that permeates all of Gaza have always been pretty magical thinking. The hospital is a good example, where Israel's spy faries are able to describe what's in the hospital and how there is actually a secret complex underneath the surface, but somehow never saw any actual construction going on. They bomb an ambulance 2 km from the border and say it had some Hamas agents in it, how did you know that? Their claims require either godly omniscience over the area or a group of on the ground pro-israel Palestinian informants that blankets the entirety of Gaza, and the former is more likely to be real. Israel doesn't even seem to have fluent Arab speakers in their army units. They can't fake propaganda videos with convincing Arab Grammar. They're an apartheid police state that has no ability to communicate with the people they're oppressing, which is honestly kinda telling about how far off the deep end they've gone.
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Nov 16, 2023 23:09
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RandomPauI posted:Bibi was sort of notorious for reacting to kidnappings and raids by launching missiles at Hamas and then working a backroom deal trading prisoners for hostages and temporary peace. This created a perverse incentive to do terrorism for brownie points domestically and concessions from Israel Israel should just realize that their ultra racist attitudes towards Arabs is doing more harm than good, and actually work out a peaceful solution. Netanyahu and his parties supremacist attitudes have hurt Israeli's as well, made their lives significantly less safe, and badly damaged the economy and prosperity of Israel. And I think a lot of that too has to do with working with the United States. Like seriously, if you're a middle eastern country, stop making a deal with the devil lol.
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Nov 16, 2023 23:20
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Yeah, my best guess is that the goal was more kidnapping to killing. As stated earlier, Bibi's reaction to smaller raids in the past was to kill some Palestinians and then quietly make concessions on prisoner releases. Even with kidnapping as the goal, well, that's hard to do. The teams were made up of a lot of different groups with different goals. The attackers were almost certainly trained in how to kill but not how to manage crowds. Some of the civilians are armed. There is no way that there wouldn't be war crimes committed. This doesn't exonerate Hamas. They may have had a logic and a rational, but that reasoning was flawed and it doesn't excuse mass murder.
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Nov 16, 2023 23:25
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Everyone who thinks Hamas wasn't expecting some massive IDF military response that would kill tons of Palestinians after the 10/7 attack is naive as hell. The Hamas/Israel conflict has been going on for decades Israel always reacts in the same way to any kind of attack of kidnapping they bomb the poo poo out of Gaza. That's how you know Hamas doesn't care about Palestinian lives because they know many will be lost after their attacks. 10/7 wasn't their first rodeo, it was just the biggest. Even if Hamas just kidnapped a few Israelis instead of massacring over a thousand the IDF would still be bombing the poo poo out of Gaza.
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Nov 16, 2023 23:35
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Charliegrs posted:Everyone who thinks Hamas wasn't expecting some massive IDF military response that would kill tons of Palestinians after the 10/7 attack is naive as hell. The Hamas/Israel conflict has been going on for decades Israel always reacts in the same way to any kind of attack of kidnapping they bomb the poo poo out of Gaza. That's how you know Hamas doesn't care about Palestinian lives because they know many will be lost after their attacks. 10/7 wasn't their first rodeo, it was just the biggest. The scale of response wouldn't have been the same. It would have been (for lack of a better term) 'business as usual', not the wholesale raze-to-the-ground slaughter you're seeing now. There's a difference between expecting the usual response and expecting nonstop war crimes until nothing is left but rubble.
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Nov 16, 2023 23:39
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Charliegrs posted:Everyone who thinks Hamas wasn't expecting some massive IDF military response that would kill tons of Palestinians after the 10/7 attack is naive as hell. The Hamas/Israel conflict has been going on for decades Israel always reacts in the same way to any kind of attack of kidnapping they bomb the poo poo out of Gaza. That's how you know Hamas doesn't care about Palestinian lives because they know many will be lost after their attacks. 10/7 wasn't their first rodeo, it was just the biggest. If Hamas never existed they would still be bombing the poo poo out of Gaza, it's a genocide. The status quo with the absolute perfect victims who never fight back would still be Israel killing Palestinians.
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Nov 16, 2023 23:39
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah, Hamas is very stupid. The idea that someone would negotiate for hostages after you just killed 6x as many people and are promising to repeat that rampage is idiotic. People seem to forget they're Jihadists. Freeing Palestine is not their goal, dying for the cause is, and killing every jew in the levant. Like, Israel is a fascist ethno state, but atleast their goals are not suicidal. The best possible outcome here, realistically, is that Fatah manages to take over what remains of the gaza strip after the IDF are done. Either that, or some sort of international management/peacekeeping operation with a lifted blockade once hamas is gone. Like the PLO leaders of old, hamas can spend their days in fancy suits in exile in some petrol monarchy. Alot of their legitimacy comes from them having a functioning militia movement on the ground that can actually jab back at israel on occation. Once that's gone who knows.
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Nov 16, 2023 23:42
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Delthalaz posted:It’s absolutely wild that despite decades of violence and intense surveillance, the Israelis seem to really have no idea where Hamas’ command infrastructure is, where its military equipment is, and where the hostages are, now more than a month into this active military campaign. In the ‘just dig holes to see if they can find tunnels’ and ‘maybe we got the hospital name wrong’ stage This is where people should ask themselves if the point of Israel's campaign is to actually achieve any of those things, or if it is to inflict as much damage as they can on Gaza's infrastructure and worsen the humanitarian crisis as collective punishment. The former is functioning as a smokescreen for the latter, although occasionally government and IDF spokesmen or soldiers let slip that they are trying to turn Gaza into rubble, or force Palestinians out and redraw territory.
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Nov 16, 2023 23:47
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https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1725251441332531560 Are we seriously meant to believe it took the IDF two whole days to find a truck parked outside filled with weapons???
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Nov 16, 2023 23:53
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I said come in! posted:https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1725251441332531560 Maybe it took them 2 days to collect enough AKs and grenades to stuff into a truck
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Nov 16, 2023 23:55
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punishedkissinger posted:I honestly dont think the massive number of civilian casualties was part of the plan. This pretty much.
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Nov 17, 2023 00:10
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There are a lot less Hamas videos coming out nowadays compared to early on in the Israeli invasion. Seems like there might not be many soldiers left or they consolidated further in
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Nov 17, 2023 00:10
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National Parks posted:Israel doesn't even seem to have fluent Arab speakers in their army units. They can't fake propaganda videos with convincing Arab Grammar. They're an apartheid police state that has no ability to communicate with the people they're oppressing, which is honestly kinda telling about how far off the deep end they've gone. Let's not get nuts. There are plenty of people in the IDF who can speak fluent Arabic. I don't know about the combat units, but there are plenty of Druze soldiers who are native Arabic speakers and intelligence units are full with Arabic speakers for obvious reasons. I'm guessing the point you're trying to make is that they aren't considering anyone on the other side worth talking to, and be that as it may it doesn't mean they're dumb enough to not have people who speak the language of most of the middle east.
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Nov 17, 2023 00:11
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Collapsing Farts posted:There are a lot less Hamas videos coming out nowadays compared to early on in the Israeli invasion. Seems like there might not be many soldiers left or they consolidated further in It's probably the telecom shutdowns combined with increased comsec, iirc Israel is still reporting troop deaths on the reg
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Nov 17, 2023 00:12
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Collapsing Farts posted:There are a lot less Hamas videos coming out nowadays compared to early on in the Israeli invasion. Seems like there might not be many soldiers left or they consolidated further in The entire telecommunications network of Gaza is pretty much hosed at the moment. Presumably that's why a good deal of the media coming out of there has dried up.
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Nov 17, 2023 00:13
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I was very curious about Israel's propaganda of continually saying that Hamas is ISIS, and upon looking into it not at all very deeply, came across a news article stating that Hamas and ISIS were at war with each other lol https://www.npr.org/2018/01/15/578172703/what-effect-isis-declaration-of-war-against-hamas-could-have-in-the-middle-east
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Nov 17, 2023 00:22
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I said come in! posted:https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1725251441332531560 I hope my car would look that clean after weeks of bombing and being in proximity to an assault by tanks. Good wax.
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Nov 17, 2023 00:35
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I said come in! posted:https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1725251441332531560 To be somewhat fair, Al Shifa is a fairly large complex and with several thousands patients and just people seeking refuge there, there are probably hundreds of cars parked outside that they'd want to search slowly and carefully not to blow up on a booby trap. However, considering the IDF said they could identify the exact ambulance vehicle Hamas were using to precision strike it, makes very little sense that they wouldn't know about a pickup full of weapons just parked there and wouldn't air-strike it as well.
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Nov 17, 2023 00:41
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Urethane posted:This is where people should ask themselves if the point of Israel's campaign is to actually achieve any of those things, or if it is to inflict as much damage as they can on Gaza's infrastructure and worsen the humanitarian crisis as collective punishment. The former is functioning as a smokescreen for the latter, although occasionally government and IDF spokesmen or soldiers let slip that they are trying to turn Gaza into rubble, or force Palestinians out and redraw territory. I think it’s clear to everyone that one of the goals of the campaign is collective punishment, destruction, and death. There’s been nothing resembling restraint, and they’re certainly succeeding in this area. At the same time, there was a real attack from Hamas on October 7, and domestic opinion alone is demanding they actually defeat Hamas and (ideally) rescue the hostages, whether that means completely replacing Hamas with a different regime or just destroying Hamas’ ability to pull off any more attacks is unclear. Yet they seem to genuinely have no actual idea where Hamas is or what they’re doing.
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Nov 17, 2023 00:42
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Delthalaz posted:At the same time, there was a real attack from Hamas on October 7, and domestic opinion alone is demanding they actually defeat Hamas and (ideally) rescue the hostages, whether that means completely replacing Hamas with a different regime or just destroying Hamas’ ability to pull off any more attacks is unclear. Having trouble figuring out how bombing them to hell and back is going to achieve this. Maybe there's some smart microscopic robots in them bombs that infiltrate Palestinian brains and convince them to love Israel? Maybe carry the hostages home while there at it by assembling into little drone taxis, too.
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Nov 17, 2023 00:47
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I said come in! posted:I get the article doesn't say that, but it's not hard to imagine what is probably killing the hostages. The IDF is blowing up tunnels without checking them, bombing everything in sight, and shooting everyone. Hostage deaths due to the IDF actions are going to be extremely likely, no? If Israel wants to come out with a new statement that better explains the cause of death after an autopsy, I would certainly hear it. Fuschia tude posted:Who is the likely cause of death of any given body found in Gaza today? Not even near-certainty, just better than even odds. If you don't know who killed her but you personally think it was the IDF, then just say that. Using phrases like "very high probability" makes it sound like you have any actual data behind it. Ms Adequate posted:Hamas has not incentive to kill hostages, they're trying to negotiate for their release. I guess it's possible a squad was trapped and had a hostage at hand, and tried to threaten the hostage to get themselves let go, were rebuffed, and made good on the threat but that requires a lot of coincidences to line up while the alternative explanation that it was due to Israeli bombing requires a lot fewer. It's also possible that the answer is "neither side intentionally killed the hostage". Many of the hostages weren't in perfect physical condition to begin with (lots of elderly people), at least a few are known to have been injured in the original Hamas assault, and then they spent more than a month imprisoned in a place with extreme shortages of food, water, fuel, and medicine. While the IDF hasn't reported on the dead hostage's physical condition or cause of death, we do know that she was a cancer patient whose husband had been killed on Oct 7th and their house burned down. Wouldn't be shocking if a few hostages succumbed to the conditions, unable to get decent care in the middle of a warzone. Neurolimal posted:https://twitter.com/PalestineRCS/status/1725164334769197466 I think you're once again falling prey to sampling bias. The IDF has taken over like half of Gaza City this point, including several hospitals. They're attacking hospitals just like they're attacking everything else. It's just that for various reasons, attacks on hospitals get more coverage.
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Nov 17, 2023 00:49
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Private Speech posted:Having trouble figuring out how bombing them to hell and back is going to achieve this. Maybe there's some smart microscopic robots in them bombs that infiltrate Palestinian brains and convince them to love Israel? Maybe carry the hostages home while there at it by assembling into little drone taxis, too. It's pretty clear that they are planning to achieve this by virtue of Palestine no longer existing.
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Nov 17, 2023 00:49
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Charliegrs posted:Everyone who thinks Hamas wasn't expecting some massive IDF military response that would kill tons of Palestinians after the 10/7 attack is naive as hell. The Hamas/Israel conflict has been going on for decades Israel always reacts in the same way to any kind of attack of kidnapping they bomb the poo poo out of Gaza. That's how you know Hamas doesn't care about Palestinian lives because they know many will be lost after their attacks. 10/7 wasn't their first rodeo, it was just the biggest. Or at least that might have been the logic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifVybe3-5aE ImpAtom posted:The scale of response wouldn't have been the same. It would have been (for lack of a better term) 'business as usual', not the wholesale raze-to-the-ground slaughter you're seeing now. There's a difference between expecting the usual response and expecting nonstop war crimes until nothing is left but rubble. Or seeing Israelis divided and protesting on a scale they've never done before, and then interpreting that division as applying to this situation that you're about to create; rather than them being divided over other things which are not germane to whether to fight you or not, or whether to stick it to the Palestinians in general or not (where opinions in Israel seem to range from "do it more" and "I don't care"). And few people in this corner of the world seem particularly empathetic to people on the other side of the concrete wall and they're not "putting myself in their shoes" that much. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Nov 17, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 00:50
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Private Speech posted:Having trouble figuring out how bombing them to hell and back is going to achieve this. Maybe there's some smart microscopic robots in them bombs that infiltrate Palestinian brains and convince them to love Israel? Maybe carry the hostages home while there at it by assembling into little drone taxis, too. The preceding portion of the post you quoted said that Israeli goals clearly include destruction, collective punishment, and death. So that’s the bombing
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Nov 17, 2023 01:00
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:(where opinions in Israel seem to range from "do it more" and "I don't care"). I don't doubt that Israel is largely united in this, but I also wouldn't be out in the streets protesting if I lived there because I'd be scared shitless of what might happen to me.
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Nov 17, 2023 01:01
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Delthalaz posted:The preceding portion of the post you quoted said that Israeli goals clearly include destruction, collective punishment, and death. So that’s the bombing I mean okay, yes, but I don't think it's helping the ultimate goals of saving people/changing minds any? As your post was juxtaposing them against the destruction as a humanising/excusing reason. Almost seems like those are not the primary goals.
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Nov 17, 2023 01:06
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