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I said come in! posted:I was very curious about Israel's propaganda of continually saying that Hamas is ISIS, and upon looking into it not at all very deeply, came across a news article stating that Hamas and ISIS were at war with each other lol https://www.npr.org/2018/01/15/578172703/what-effect-isis-declaration-of-war-against-hamas-could-have-in-the-middle-east Oh yeah, it's an absolutely insane braindead comparison. Hamas is an Arabic nationalist movement while ISIS is a Salafi group who believe all Arabs should swear loyalty to a single caliphate. Hamas' has fought Salafi groups in Gaza multiple times in the past.
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Nov 17, 2023 01:14
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Collapsing Farts posted:There are a lot less Hamas videos coming out nowadays compared to early on in the Israeli invasion. Seems like there might not be many soldiers left or they consolidated further in They released two today. I haven't seen one of them, but the other was of mortar teams firing from the tunnels. So maybe.
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Nov 17, 2023 01:15
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Private Speech posted:I mean okay, yes, but I don't think it's helping the ultimate goals of saving people/changing minds any? As your post was juxtaposing them against the destruction as a humanising/excusing reason. I’m really just saying that one of their goals is to destroy Hamas and they’re failing at it. Maybe it isn’t their primary goal. I’m not excusing anything. e: it doesn’t seem to be their primary goal, but it’s a goal
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Nov 17, 2023 01:16
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I hope my car would look that clean after weeks of bombing and being in proximity to an assault by tanks. Good wax. Crazy Hamish's Body Shop getting some unexpected publicity. I actually find a lot of the day to day pre invasion Gaza adaptation really interesting if profoundly depressing, there was an article weeks and many, many pages ago about construction material salvagers. who are going to make bank
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Nov 17, 2023 01:28
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Delthalaz posted:I’m really just saying that one of their goals is to destroy Hamas and they’re failing at it. Maybe it isn’t their primary goal. I’m not excusing anything. I do believe their primary goal is to destroy Hamas, but failing that a secondary goal could be to end the strategy of seizing hostages for profit in Israel, which would then probably make things easier for whoever is PM during a future attack. You may as well not bother and just kill everyone, that way Israel doesn't have to deal with uncomfortable questions about how to rescue hostages, if there aren't any.
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Nov 17, 2023 02:27
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https://jewishcurrents.org/hostages-families-fight-to-be-heard It seems like the frustrations over the hostage situation in Israel is getting more and more intense. quote:According to a recent poll by Channel 13 News, 76% of Israelis think Netanyahu needs to resign, a call that’s been echoed by important former military and political officials. The phrase “Bibi is a murderer” has been trending on Twitter in Israel, and videos circulating in Israeli media show Israeli ministers getting heckled in recent weeks at hospitals, schools, and hotels where survivors are being housed, and even at the funerals of those killed on October 7th. According to Baskin, in contrast to during the Shalit negotiation, “there’s very, very low confidence in the ability and the reasonableness of Netanyahu making decisions today. He’s not trusted, even by people in his own party.” It seems Israeli's will not accept under any circumstances, hostages being killed, even if their government has given up on them. Hopefully this results in a different political party taking over, not just someone else from Netanyahu's party replacing him. My hope being that it will be someone who will actually finally work with Palestinians in good faith. I realize the chances of this happening are extremely low. But I guess that is about the best we can do? Even when the war is over, the international community needs to continue to put a lot of pressure on Israel, we can't just stop paying attention because otherwise Israel will just continue their genocide in other ways.
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Nov 17, 2023 03:06
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I said come in! posted:https://jewishcurrents.org/hostages-families-fight-to-be-heard Actually did an IRL  at that figure. How in God's name does anyone gently caress up so bad they are not just over 75% disapproved of, but disapproved of so strongly that three quarters of the country thinks you need to resign, six weeks after Black Saturday and into the subsequent military action? Six weeks after 9/11 Bush's approvals were still in the high 80s and would remain so for like another year or something. Writing off hostages so totally would be a losing move for any politician in any country but in Israel of all places? Being willing to indiscriminately bomb the area they're being held without precise knowledge of their locations? There are gonna literally be Israeli bodies pulled out of the rubble that were killed by IDF bombs, Bibi's going to be lucky if he survives literally, nevermind politically.
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Nov 17, 2023 03:27
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https://twitter.com/mehdirhasan/status/1725330605141807128 This is incredible to see on American national television, and from Hasan of all lightweights. It's kind of incredible that he just crumples into a corncob because they're so used to not getting called out on live television about these things.
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Nov 17, 2023 03:40
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Ms Adequate posted:Actually did an IRL Bush didn't run on being the only thing that can keep us safe. Israel is going to change dramatically, and Bibi is toast. Likud's messaging for eons now has been they are the thin line keeping Israel safe from the barbarian hordes. That's a fair bit difference than Bush's "I'll keep your taxes low.".
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Nov 17, 2023 03:44
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Neurolimal posted:https://twitter.com/mehdirhasan/status/1725330605141807128 Oh this knobhead is always on UK TV lately and I don't know if many people make me as viscerally angry as him, just the most baldfaced lies and muddying the water, seeing him actually called out even a little bit is a balm. Rookersh posted:Bush didn't run on being the only thing that can keep us safe. Oh absolutely, there are big differences in their circumstances and I wouldn't expect Bibi to be doing nearly as well as Bush at this point no matter how well he handled things, but even so those are hideous numbers, let alone in such a short timeframe. If only it translated into the Knesset calling early elections so there was a chance of getting someone even slightly less of a prick in office. Ms Adequate fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Nov 17, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 03:46
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Ms Adequate posted:Actually did an IRL Running on being the only person to keep his people safe, and he was already very unpopular due to wanting to get rid of the supreme court. Also Bibi is being investigated on three different indictments for corruption and other illegal activity. Imagine trump but getting away with some of his most unhinged hate and corruption.
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Nov 17, 2023 03:55
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A pretty significant issue with Israeli politics (from the international perspective) is that there really isn't a "slightly less of a prick" option; when Bibi is gone he's either replaced with Gantz (functionally identical politics with-regards-to Palestine), or someone to his right like Lapid (hungers for the souls of unborn Palestinians, sustains himself with the sap of dead olive trees). It would undeniably be cathartic if Netanyahu ever sees the inside of a prison cell, though.
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Nov 17, 2023 03:57
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Ms Adequate posted:Oh absolutely, there are big differences in their circumstances and I wouldn't expect Bibi to be doing nearly as well as Bush at this point no matter how well he handled things, but even so those are hideous numbers, let alone in such a short timeframe. Something that stuck with me a lot during the riots earlier this year was many younger online Israeli's mentioning their family despised Likud. Hated Bibi, hated the corruption, hated the settlers, hated the posturing. But they couldn't get their parents to vote opposition, because "only Likud can keep us safe.". Likud just got caught with it's pants down, and all of that hatred is roaring out. People do not like Likud. They like the safety Likud promised. Neurolimal posted:A pretty significant issue with Israeli politics (from the international perspective) is that there really isn't a "slightly less of a prick" option; when Bibi is gone he's either replaced with Gantz (functionally identical politics with-regards-to Palestine), or someone to his right like Lapid (hungers for the souls of unborn Palestinians, sustains himself with the sap of dead olive trees). I'd say that's a bit doomerist. Gantz isn't functionally identical to Bibi or Lapid, he actually had started to move in a very slow way towards two state ( though he calls it two entity ). Lapid has also shown to be somewhat less of a prick in the past, and is willing to at least vote when it's needed. He's a ghoul, but he's no Bibi. Importantly, if the opposition could actually take and hold power long enough, I could see a mix of US intervention/minority opposition party uniting to force Gantz or Lapid into agreeing to something that'd help smooth things out. Labor isn't much anymore, but a Labor/Arab party push could force a paradigm shift, especially if it was backed by the US.
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Nov 17, 2023 04:19
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I said come in! posted:https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1725251441332531560 Why would the AKs and rocket launchers be in the booby trapped car? Those are your guns, you don't put them in the exploding trap car! Or are we supposed to believe this is some sort of Home Alone type scenario where Hamas rigged an elaborate string and hot wheels contraption that fires a full clip at the IDF soldier trying to deliver food and medicine to a dummy inside the car wearing a wig and sunglasses?
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Nov 17, 2023 04:29
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I imagine the next election is going to be life or death for Palestinians, but sympathy among israelis is probably still non-existent? Like Israelis most likely still want genocide, but also to be kept safe and free of consequences from that.
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Nov 17, 2023 04:37
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Delthalaz posted:I’m really just saying that one of their goals is to destroy Hamas and they’re failing at it. Maybe it isn’t their primary goal. I’m not excusing anything. The thing is that Israel has been trying to destroy Hamas for literally decades. They've tried a bunch of different times in a bunch of different ways. It's quite clear that they don't really know how to do it. In the past few years, they'd pretty much given up on active efforts and adopted the typical American strategy of containing Gaza militarily, crashing its economy by cutting off its access to global trade, and then loudly talking about how much wealth and prosperity Gaza would be rewarded with if the population rose up and overthrew Hamas. It's an unreliable strategy that can drag on for decades without showing any results, but it's politically cheap...as long as the military containment actually works. Turns out that's a lot easier to do when the foe is a few thousand miles away! The problem is that the military containment isn't perfect, and when it fails there's a big political backlash. Typically, that gets channeled into making a big show of rolling into Gaza and loudly making a huge mess so the news can show footage of big explosions for a few days. But no matter what they do, within a couple of years Hamas is back to reminding the Israeli voters that they still exist and won't just be quietly starved out. And the voters have noticed the trend by now. So the goal of the entire Israeli incursion this time is probably just "please for the love of god, let the troops manage to pull off something that can be called a political success and save the sitting government's careers". Ms Adequate posted:Actually did an IRL Bibi is barely even bothering to pretend to give a poo poo about the hostages. He's blatantly ignoring the hostages' families and making absolutely no effort at all to negotiate their release, and it shows. mrmcd posted:Why would the AKs and rocket launchers be in the booby trapped car? Those are your guns, you don't put them in the exploding trap car! I've seen pro-Israel folks claiming (without any basis, of course) that the reason the IDF didn't find much at Al-Shifa was that the IDF were too slow to raid Al-Shifa, and that Hamas simply evacuated their entire command center and all their arms stockpiles through the tunnels, so the only stuff left behind was stuff they either forgot about, couldn't carry, or used to bait the IDF into traps.
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Nov 17, 2023 04:40
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Something that's been bugging me about the whole Hamas base in the hospital narrative is it seems to start from an assumption that Hamas would think Israel would hesitate to bomb a hospital. That strikes me as a shaky, if not outright fallacious assumption.
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Nov 17, 2023 05:14
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Stringent posted:Something that's been bugging me about the whole Hamas base in the hospital narrative is it seems to start from an assumption that Hamas would think Israel would hesitate to bomb a hospital. That strikes me as a shaky, if not outright fallacious assumption. That doesn't need to be the calculus; the optics of bombing or attacking a hospital are just way worse, and Hamas can know that.
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Nov 17, 2023 06:02
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Stringent posted:Something that's been bugging me about the whole Hamas base in the hospital narrative is it seems to start from an assumption that Hamas would think Israel would hesitate to bomb a hospital. That strikes me as a shaky, if not outright fallacious assumption.
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Nov 17, 2023 06:35
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Pvt. Parts posted:That doesn't need to be the calculus; the optics of bombing or attacking a hospital are just way worse, and Hamas can know that. Sorry I had trouble parsing this, by "know that" do you mean that Hamas knows the optics are worse or that Hamas knows that Israel would do it anyway regardless of the optics?
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Nov 17, 2023 06:39
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Stringent posted:Sorry I had trouble parsing this, by "know that" do you mean that Hamas knows the optics are worse or that Hamas knows that Israel would do it anyway regardless of the optics? The former. Whether or not Israel would actually attack their alleged hospital hideouts, they are politically more expensive to attack, and Hamas can count on that as part of their protection. Presumably Hamas doesn't want their bases to be attacked.
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Nov 17, 2023 06:52
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mrmcd posted:Why would the AKs and rocket launchers be in the booby trapped car? Those are your guns, you don't put them in the exploding trap car! not suggesting this is what actually happened since this is clearly bullshit, but it's not unheard of to booby-trap weapon caches or supply drops to prevent the enemy getting into it. if your guys know what the trap is, they don't have anything to fear, and for the people that you don't want in it, they get exploded for messing with your stuff.
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Nov 17, 2023 06:57
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Stringent posted:Something that's been bugging me about the whole Hamas base in the hospital narrative is it seems to start from an assumption that Hamas would think Israel would hesitate to bomb a hospital. That strikes me as a shaky, if not outright fallacious assumption. Given that we're seeing Israeli soldiers searching through Al-Shifa room-by-room instead of digging through a pile of smoking ruins, it does in fact seem to be a solid enough assumption. Israel's committed plenty of war crimes toward hospitals over the course of this campaign, but it hasn't extensively destroyed the interior of any hospitals.
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Nov 17, 2023 07:11
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The hospitals also have thousands of people sheltering in them. I get the impression that Israel knows they cannot bomb those to the ground, as badly as they really want to do this.
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Nov 17, 2023 07:26
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I suspect the outcry around the explosion at Al-Ahri Arab Hospital may have been severe enough to give Israel some kind of pause over outright flattening a hospital. The waters got muddy enough in the following days that the issue wasn't enough to immediately end foreign government's support for Israel or spark like a full West Bank uprising or Hezbollah war, but there wouldn't be any room for doubt on airstriking Al-Shifa to the ground and that really would be the kind of singular, bombastic atrocity which would ignite the whole region and make increasing numbers of foreign governments feel internal pressure to call for ceasefire.
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Nov 17, 2023 09:08
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I said come in! posted:I was very curious about Israel's propaganda of continually saying that Hamas is ISIS, and upon looking into it not at all very deeply, came across a news article stating that Hamas and ISIS were at war with each other lol https://www.npr.org/2018/01/15/578172703/what-effect-isis-declaration-of-war-against-hamas-could-have-in-the-middle-east A lot of the propaganda coming out of Israel is designed specifically to persuade dumb westerners in a manner they can relate to and Americans tend to feel a certain way about ISIS. It's stupid not to mention incredibly racist in trying to collapse all these groups that are in contention into The Evil Arabs.
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Nov 17, 2023 09:09
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Ms Adequate posted:I suspect the outcry around the explosion at Al-Ahri Arab Hospital may have been severe enough to give Israel some kind of pause over outright flattening a hospital. The waters got muddy enough in the following days that the issue wasn't enough to immediately end foreign government's support for Israel or spark like a full West Bank uprising or Hezbollah war, but there wouldn't be any room for doubt on airstriking Al-Shifa to the ground and that really would be the kind of singular, bombastic atrocity which would ignite the whole region and make increasing numbers of foreign governments feel internal pressure to call for ceasefire. It's also worth noting that Israel didn't level Al-Shifa in 2008 or 2014 either, not to mention all the biyearly bombing campaigns in between, despite the fact that it's long been accusing Hamas of having a major presence at the hospital. Israel certainly does its fair share of war crimes, but there's no particular indication that Israel has ever really been interested in outright destroying hospitals. There's the occasional hit here and there, but even the US hit hospitals a few times during the War on Terror and nobody really thinks it was on purpose (though it's still a war crime to be putting airstrikes in the hands of people incompetent enough to strike hospitals by accident!).
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Nov 17, 2023 09:22
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Carew posted:A lot of the propaganda coming out of Israel is designed specifically to persuade dumb westerners in a manner they can relate to and Americans tend to feel a certain way about ISIS. I mean they are both jihadist groups, so its not like any drawn comparison is completely baseless. What makes it a stretch is that the groups operate at totally different levels of consciousness. For ISIS, Hamas are not nearly lost in the sauce enough; their nationalism and other immediate earthly concerns (like the Jews/Israel) are improperly primary to the purification of Islamic society (read: lots of capital punishment and vibe policing) ISIS seeks.
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Nov 17, 2023 09:26
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Pvt. Parts posted:I mean they are both jihadist groups, so its not like any drawn comparison is completely baseless. What makes it a stretch is that the groups operate at totally different levels of consciousness. For ISIS, Hamas are not nearly lost in the sauce enough; their nationalism and other immediate earthly concerns (like the Jews/Israel) are improperly primary to the purification of Islamic society (read: lots of capital punishment and vibe policing) ISIS seeks. No it is completely baseless. They come from very, very different Islamist schools of ideology. The comparison is there only to score points with a foreign public that only thinks that Islamism is terrorism. It is also especially hypocritical and self serving coming from Israel of all countries considering they provided medical aid to ISIS and paved the way for their assaults with bombing campaigns. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 09:41 on Nov 17, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 09:33
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I mean ultimately though the reason that ISIS was so notorious and despised wasn't their ideology so much as the fact that they frequently recorded themselves committing extreme acts of cruelty against civilians and proudly posting them online. Aspects of 10/7 was certainly reminiscent of that, although Hamas at least had the sense to back off from that strategy after (they initially announced they were going to execute hostages if Israel retaliated, which thankfully turned out to be a bluff).
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Nov 17, 2023 10:45
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Pvt. Parts posted:I mean they are both jihadist groups, so its not like any drawn comparison is completely baseless. What makes it a stretch is that the groups operate at totally different levels of consciousness. For ISIS, Hamas are not nearly lost in the sauce enough; their nationalism and other immediate earthly concerns (like the Jews/Israel) are improperly primary to the purification of Islamic society (read: lots of capital punishment and vibe policing) ISIS seeks. Yes, in this sense the better comparison to ISIS is the Israeli right-wing which: - Seeks to unite the Jewish ummah under the banner of religious diktat - Is extreme in religiosity - gotta obey those 613 mitzvot - Is happy with ultra violence and the celebration of it - "Ali's on the grill" - Thinks any extremity is justified by Hashem - Would ideally like a vast swathe of territory (the real river boundary is hideqel) - Thinks the world owes them supplication - Is takfiri as all hell (see: The Jerusalem Post) - Is happy with servitude of inferior races/religious groups - "Goyim were born only to serve us", Mufti Ovadia Yosef
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Nov 17, 2023 10:55
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I mean ultimately though the reason that ISIS was so notorious and despised wasn't their ideology so much as the fact that they frequently recorded themselves committing extreme acts of cruelty against civilians and proudly posting them online. Aspects of 10/7 was certainly reminiscent of that, although Hamas at least had the sense to back off from that strategy after (they initially announced they were going to execute hostages if Israel retaliated, which thankfully turned out to be a bluff). Not if they retaliate against Hamas, if they continued to indiscriminately bomb civilians with no warning. Israel called the bluff by bombing civilians harder. E:furthermore the Isis comparison serves as cover for Israel to why they will not negotiate with Hamas despite there being a long history of negotiation with Hamas wrt ceasefires and prisoner exchanges. (Ignoring that Israel rarely kept its word and never negotiated in good faith .https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ke-9645558.html) Its easy to justify a genocidal war if you say your enemies are mindless demons. EE: And to say Israel isnt specifically targeting hospitals because they didnt bomb or destroy them is extremely naive, even willfully blind. This current campaign has seen the infrastructure for Gaza systematically destroyed, in an attempt to make living in Gaza even more unbearable for the Palestinians, and to make return unfeasible. The specific attack on Al shifa isnt because its a Hamas militant central Hq, but it actually is the center of the Gazan Health ministry. The attack aims to cripple that Health ministry. a reminder that we havent gotten a confident update on the death toll in Gaza from the health ministry since the sieges on hospitals began They also serve as sets for their embarassing, US police level propaganda to further justify more of these acts. Im sure the next hospital will contain the hamas supersoldier vats, if not maybe the one after that. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 11:58 on Nov 17, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 11:03
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Seems like Biden has been supporting Israeli war crimes for decades. https://twitter.com/ShibleyTelhami/status/1725297204586258751
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Nov 17, 2023 11:54
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Gumball Gumption posted:If Hamas never existed they would still be bombing the poo poo out of Gaza, it's a genocide. The status quo with the absolute perfect victims who never fight back would still be Israel killing Palestinians. I thought the peace process was making real headway in the 90s? Then Hamas who was against any kind of two state solution did a load of bus bombings and allowed Bibi, who was seen as an extremest at the time, to slither his way into power in Israel? Would we still be in the situation we are now in if that hadn't happened and the PLO had remained in power?
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Nov 17, 2023 12:02
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BUUNNI posted:Seems like Biden has been supporting Israeli war crimes for decades. Christ, imagine getting the 'Yikes, hell no' seal of disapproval from Begin of all people.
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Nov 17, 2023 12:42
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Mega Comrade posted:I thought the peace process was making real headway in the 90s? Then Hamas who was against any kind of two state solution did a load of bus bombings and allowed Bibi, who was seen as an extremest at the time, to slither his way into power in Israel? Netanyahu was far, far from a fringe figure and was the chairman for Likud in the 90s, being replaced only by Sharon during his tenure as PM and has been its chairman ever since. And If were dealing in pointless counterfactuals would we be here in this situation if Israel kept to the 1967 borders?
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Nov 17, 2023 12:47
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Mega Comrade posted:I thought the peace process was making real headway in the 90s? Then Hamas who was against any kind of two state solution did a load of bus bombings and allowed Bibi, who was seen as an extremest at the time, to slither his way into power in Israel? the peace process died with Rabin and it wasn't Hamas that killed him
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Nov 17, 2023 12:55
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Mega Comrade posted:I thought the peace process was making real headway in the 90s? Then Hamas who was against any kind of two state solution did a load of bus bombings and allowed Bibi, who was seen as an extremest at the time, to slither his way into power in Israel? The last time Israel pursued the peace process with anything resembling good faith was when Rabin was alive, and it was Bibi and friends who radicalized a dude into assassinating him. The best case scenario if you remove just Hamas from the equation is that Gaza's situation could be closer to the West Bank's.
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Nov 17, 2023 13:39
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Maltloaf posted:Military knowers: I ask, are you able to defeat that kind of effective organization without leveling anything and everything, reprisals and terror? No. The tool for defeating such an organization is material concessions, PR, power-sharing. If you're going to commit to a military solution yes you have to kill everyone because that's what a military is. A tool for occupying territory and killing it's inhabitants. If you're lucky you kill enough of them before they kill enough of you they let you keep the territory.
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Nov 17, 2023 14:19
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BUUNNI posted:Seems like Biden has been supporting Israeli war crimes for decades. So what you're saying is Biden is to the right of both Reagan and Begin when it comes to indiscriminately bombing innocent people. Yikes.
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