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Radical 90s Wizard posted:Im just saying it's literally whatever the state wants/thinks it can get away with. Democratic states may not perfectly represent their electorates but generally I wouldn't absolve the people of responsibility. The American people as a whole supported the Iraq and Afghanistan wars so that is a mark on American history and culture. It wasn't "the state" or neocons or capitalism or whatever that forced it through against massive popular opposition. It absolutely had popular support. Similarly the Israeli government is not going rogue without popular support. The Israeli people, as a whole, supports this. So maybe the reason people support it is THE MEDIA but if all it takes to make people support wars is a few PowerPoint slides presented at the UN and news networks pumping the idea then free will truly is bullshit. Then we're just meatpuppets controlled by soundbites and memes and at that point is anyone responsible for anything? I prefer to think humans are merely awful with the occasional or incidental capacity for good.
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Nov 18, 2023 11:39
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Nov 18, 2023 11:56
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Owling Howl posted:So maybe the reason people support it is THE MEDIA but if all it takes to make people support wars is a few PowerPoint slides presented at the UN and news networks pumping the idea then free will truly is bullshit. Then we're just meatpuppets controlled by soundbites and memes and at that point is anyone responsible for anything? I prefer to think humans are merely awful with the occasional or incidental capacity for good. It takes a village, is my stance. People are ultimately the sum of their environment and the worldviews they've leeched from everyone else. That's how we end up with massive generational divides (such as, for example, Israel). Free-Will is ultimately just the execution of what you've been trained on prior to the ossification of your habits. Applied to Israel; they don't support subjugating Palestinians because being born Israeli makes you innately bloodthirsty & callous, it's the culture they're marinated in. People are awful because many of the societies we've built are distant and awful. E: but also yeah this is a bit of a weird abstract response to 90's wizard. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 12:07 on Nov 18, 2023 |
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Nov 18, 2023 12:05
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Owling Howl posted:The American people as a whole supported the Iraq and Afghanistan wars so that is a mark on American history and culture. I am pretty sure zero polling supports this at all. Americans as ignorant as we are, knew both wars were pointless, accomplished nothing, and accepted that we lost both wars. Maybe at the absolute very beginning, but attitudes towards all of that shifted very quickly.
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Nov 18, 2023 12:36
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I said come in! posted:I am pretty sure zero polling supports this at all. Americans as ignorant as we are, knew both wars were pointless, accomplished nothing, and accepted that we lost both wars. Maybe at the absolute very beginning, but attitudes towards all of that shifted very quickly. lol this is some insane revisionism. i don't think polling went against the war in iraq until 2007-ish and afghanistan remained 'the good war' like halfway through obama
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Nov 18, 2023 13:23
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i say swears online posted:lol this is some insane revisionism. i don't think polling went against the war in iraq until 2007-ish and afghanistan remained 'the good war' like halfway through obama Yeah there were definitely pockets of anti-war sentiment from the jump (especially for Iraq) but the public as a whole was all "USA USA bringing freedom to the world one bullet at a time" until well into Dubya's second term
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Nov 18, 2023 13:44
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A majority of Israelis support a ceasefire in exchange for the release of hostages. Some are willing to take a partial exchange while most would require all to be released to accept it, and who knows how opinion might shift after such a release, but even the ordinary Israeli can see their way clear to ending this, it's the Netanyahu cabinet who is all-in (Bibi knows he is absolutely cooked the second the fighting stops). E; Source: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3842990&pagenumber=1686&perpage=40&userid=0#post535851835 Ms Adequate fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Nov 18, 2023 |
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Nov 18, 2023 13:50
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Israeli bombed a UN school an hour ago. Won't link the Al Jazeera story about it as it has video on site which includes a lot of dead in the video including children and infants.
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Nov 18, 2023 14:00
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https://twitter.com/HeerJeet/status/1725541103535784333
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Nov 18, 2023 14:06
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there might be a bit of a problem with the administration's incredible credulity wrt Israeli intelligence sharing
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Nov 18, 2023 14:19
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Herstory Begins Now posted:there might be a bit of a problem with the administration's incredible credulity wrt Israeli intelligence sharing It’s apparently not just the Biden administration that they’re trying to do this with. Something something media literacy. https://twitter.com/marcrod97/status/1724454949877166483
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Nov 18, 2023 14:28
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Herstory Begins Now posted:there might be a bit of a problem with the administration's incredible credulity wrt Israeli intelligence sharing
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Nov 18, 2023 14:57
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HonorableTB posted:E2: native issues in general is something that might be worth a thread of its own if there isn't already one. I'll write up an OP tomorrow and post one and see if there's any interest in it Just chiming into say I’d love to read this.
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Nov 18, 2023 15:31
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Judgy Fucker posted:Just chiming into say I’d love to read this. Yeah same
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Nov 18, 2023 16:21
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https://twitter.com/AJArabic/status/1725887093451149798quote:The General Director of Hospitals in the Gaza Strip told Al Jazeera: Today’s massacres will result in a thousand martyrs This is in the wake of the IDF mowing down a UN school. This isn't too shocking, unfortunately; it's not uncommon for fascist/occupation forces to ramp up their war crimes as the situation rapidly deteriorates; On the Propaganda front, as we've likely all taken notice of, Al-Shifa has become a media turning point. CNN, MSNBC, and the BBC have all started running actually critical interviews and footage. Most notably; on MSNBC Hasan grilled Regev alive, CNN aired footage of a father mourning his son who had been fleeing as per IDF orders before being executed, and the BBC has been aggressive in questioning discrepencies with the hospital tours. Approval is deteriorating within the US; Reuters-Ipsos has shown a collapse of 9% in the span of 34 days, from 41% to 32%, of generic support for Israel. 68% of Americans in that same poll support a ceasefire (notably with a majority of both Democrat and Republican voter), and the number of Congresscritters endorsing a ceasefire has climbed to 34 (notably now including 2 of the 35 jewish Congress politicians, neither are Bernie Sanders). 400 active Biden staffers have signed a letter calling for a ceasefire. Jewish-led protests have only escalated, and have taken to actually effective tactics of high-profile obstruction, with police violently attacking protestors at the DNC, Protestors occupying the lobbies of both the New York Times and Fox News, as well as blocking the BU bridge to call on Elizabeth Warren to support a ceasefire. In the UK, One-third of Labour MP's have defied the party stance to join the SNP in calling for a ceasefire, including 8 front benchers. Within Germany, the third stronghold of support for Israel, has had protests but virtually no movement among politicians towards peace. Instead, they have forwarded laws intended to terrorize immigrants & refugees critical of Israel. Pro-Israel actors have attempted their own movements, but they've been controversial and anemic. A rally was held in DC, over 100,000 participants were anticipated, however sky shots imply numbers closer to the tens of thousands. Controversially, John Hagee was a speaker, who has a history of severely antisemitic remarks. In the aftermath, other speakers claimed to have not known that he would be a speaker. Elon Musk, two days prior, endorsed Great Replacement Theory posts which resulted in an exodus of advertisers, the next day he announced that the terms "From the River to the Sea" and "Decolonization" would be banned, which saw immediate endorsement by the ADL's Jonathan Greenblatt, who did not otherwise comment on his antisemitic remarks. Joe Biden, in a conference, provided confidence in Al-Shifa as a Hamas headquarters. Israel has since redirected its attention towards South Gaza, having failed to locate more than a channel for electrical cables, which they documented using a Nokia flip-phone. It is not all unfortunate news for Israel; Instagram, Meta, Facebook, and TikTok have unequivocally complied with Israel's take down requests. On the Economic front, the war continues to have massive repercussions on Israel. As has been aggregated on Financial Times (paywalled), 33% of businesses are shuttered or running at less than 20% capacity. Half of businesses have reported revenue losses in excess of 50%, and 764,000 Israelis are currently not working. Bloomberg notes that the war has cost Israel 8 billion as of Nov 12, with an additional 260 million every day, and Israeli bond insurance has doubled since the start of the war. Tourism has dropped by at least 73%, and 80% of Israel's tech industry has reported some degree of losses. Rumors that Israel may reduce reserve troops. On the military front, sources are understandably less available for linking (both in the lack of transparency on a macro scale & rules consideration for gore posting). Fighting in the NW front remains fierce, with minimal gains on Israel's behalf. Israel's multi-day war on the unarmed noncombatant force of Al-Shifa has resulted in a decisive loss, due to either a severe intelligence failure or underestimation of Hamas' teleportation powers. To mitigate losses, the IDF have opted to demand the evacuation of Al-Shifa. On Hamas' end, recorded attacks on vehicles continue, however sniping, booby-trap, and rocket attacks at on-foot IDF soldiers have risen. None of it is notable on its own, however there are visible confirmed casualties of on-foot soldiers which are in excess of any of Israel's daily reported casualties, implying a slow rollout of information to manage outrage. Within Israel, 76% of Israelis are calling on Netanyahu to resign mid-war. and thousands have marched on Netanyahu's office due to radio silence on returning the hostages. On the subject of a ceasefire, 60% of Israelis support a ceasefire deal in exchange for the release of hostages. It is unclear what goal the IDF will ostensibly pursue, now that the casus belli (genuinely believed or otherwise) of Al-Shifa being a Hamas headquarters is dead. Hardliners have implied an incursion into Khan Younis, where they are once again claiming the location of a Hamas base. More likely, Israel is trying to squeeze Gazans into Egypt, by attempting to eradicate North Gaza, then telling South Gaza to evacuate; with North Gaza cut off, there is only one direction. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Nov 18, 2023 |
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Nov 18, 2023 17:53
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Neurolimal posted:https://twitter.com/AJArabic/status/1725887093451149798 Great informative post, thank you for this.
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Nov 18, 2023 17:58
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Looks like in addition to forcing the evacuation of al-Shifa, Israel is working on murdering its way through its senior staff: https://x.com/ytirawi/status/1725872774000845109?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
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Nov 18, 2023 18:04
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Speaking on the economic front, didn’t Israel just take out something like a six billion dollar loan with horrible interest rates and other bad strings attached? It’s not guarantee, but total economic collapse isn’t out of the question (unless, say, Biden decides to bail them out).
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Nov 18, 2023 19:31
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Israel is a decently rich country with tons of investors and control of its own currency. I don't think total economic collapse is on the cards unless this goes on for a very long time.
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Nov 18, 2023 19:46
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It's a decently rich country that has mobilised the most economically active 4% of its population. This has been a dilemma Israel has always had: it has to fight short, decisive wars because when they his the mobilisation button the economy goes on pause.
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Nov 18, 2023 19:50
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The United States has been effectively paying the salary of every Ukrainian government official for going on two years, and the United States likes Israel even more than Ukraine. The private sector will have huge problems (though I wouldn’t be shocked for a US bailout of that as well) but the Israeli government and military have US-backed blank checks as long as they want it.
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Nov 18, 2023 20:50
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Joe Biden allegedly wrote an OpEd. It's so bizarre that I can honestly believe that it was written by him before getting edited into coherency. Proposing visa bans to stop settler violence.
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Nov 18, 2023 23:02
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Focusing on settler violence in the West Bank when Israel has killed 10,000+ people in Gaza and is now talking about invading the Southern part of Gaza where the majority of the population is now is certainly a take
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Nov 18, 2023 23:16
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edit; nm
Mia Wasikowska fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Nov 18, 2023 |
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Nov 18, 2023 23:20
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Neurolimal posted:Joe Biden allegedly wrote an OpEd.
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Nov 18, 2023 23:31
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FlamingLiberal posted:Focusing on settler violence in the West Bank when Israel has killed 10,000+ people in Gaza and is now talking about invading the Southern part of Gaza where the majority of the population is now is certainly a take It does make a bit of warpse sense. Israel can turn Gaza into glass and Blinken and the other DC drones can just parrot "This is on Hamas! People there voted for this!" forever, but having Kristalnacht every day for months in the West Bank gives lie to the whole narrative. Besides, the people there have more working cellphnes and internet connections to get the gruesome stuff out. So it feels like a weak play at a red line. You can ethnically cleanse -here-, but over _there_ is too much. Which are empty threats, of course, when you're ferrying both cash and weapons to the party in question and just threw your credibility in the toilet by saying you just saw the massive Hamas Terror Bunker under that hospital along with all the beheaded babies.
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Nov 18, 2023 23:35
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Neurolimal posted:Joe Biden allegedly wrote an OpEd. It's not as ridiculous as it sounds. Settler extremism has some roots in the US. Kahane and Goldstein were born in the US and grew up together in New York, and to this day the frontline extremists get a regular flow of reinforcements from right-wing American Jews who radicalize in the US and decide to go to Israel to join the holy war. FlamingLiberal posted:Focusing on settler violence in the West Bank when Israel has killed 10,000+ people in Gaza and is now talking about invading the Southern part of Gaza where the majority of the population is now is certainly a take It makes sense. The ideal US end result for I/P is a two-state solution with the PA running a Palestinian rump state in the West Bank and Gaza. Unlike Hamas, which the US government regards as terrorists who must be stopped at any cost (and American foreign policy practically pioneered the concept of blowing up a hundred civilians to kill one terrorist), the US is very concerned about anything that might destabilize the West Bank or expose the "peaceful" coexistence there as nothing but a sham. The IDF blowing up apartment buildings in Gaza is nominally an anti-terrorist military operation against Hamas. Settler gangs shooting people in the West Bank doesn't even have that shaky veneer of legitimacy, it's just straight-up pogroms.
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Nov 18, 2023 23:45
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I remember at the time wondering what the hell weapons the fighters on the ground were using to be able to burn out so many cars on the road trying to escape the rave. Turns out, according to Haaretz, that an IDF gunship opened up on the bystanders. Which rather changes the story somewhat from what we were presented with. And the burnt out vehicles would make a lot more sense if they were hit by IDF heavy weapons trying to interdict anyone moving away from the wall. I'm not in anyway denying that Palestinian fighters killed Israelis, but much like the 200 unrecognisably burnt victims turning out to be terrorists, and the eyewitness reports of the IDF firing indiscriminately into buildings in the kibbutz, this really highlights that we haven't been told the truth about what happened that day. https://twitter.com/AliAbunimah/status/1725958732113162579?t=DEj5cTnSYE6FBaE_VTMYfQ&s=19 Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Nov 19, 2023 |
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Nov 19, 2023 00:21
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Main Paineframe posted:It's not as ridiculous as it sounds. Settler extremism has some roots in the US. Kahane and Goldstein were born in the US and grew up together in New York, and to this day the frontline extremists get a regular flow of reinforcements from right-wing American Jews who radicalize in the US and decide to go to Israel to join the holy war. Right, but once they're Israeli citizens, what do they need with the US visa?
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Nov 19, 2023 00:42
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Right, but once they're Israeli citizens, what do they need with the US visa? The ability to easily flee Israel when their chickens come home to roost.
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Nov 19, 2023 00:52
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Being able to ban Israeli/US citizens from coming back to the US would be a good thing. It should be done to any West Bank settlers to be honest.
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Nov 19, 2023 01:14
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I remember at the time wondering what the hell weapons the fighters on the ground were using to be able to burn out so many cars on the road trying to escape the rave. Turns out, according to Haaretz, that an IDF gunship opened up on the bystanders. Which rather changes the story somewhat from what we were presented with. And the burnt out vehicles would make a lot more sense if they were hit by IDF heavy weapons trying to interdict anyone moving away from the wall. The IDF accounting for more and more of the Oct-7 civilian deaths as time goes on is about the least surprising thing ever. Brucolac fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Nov 19, 2023 |
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Nov 19, 2023 01:45
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Hamas had pretty heavy weaponry didn't they?
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Nov 19, 2023 01:53
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Zzulu posted:Hamas had pretty heavy weaponry didn't they? Seems that way! but nothing that would cause the sort of damage that is being described. The uncomfortable truth is that the IDF likely is responsible for a good portion of the deaths that day, not hamas. Having a detailed account of what happened is not in Israels best interest of course. This entire genocide is based on the false narrative that hamas was butchers that day. They absolutely murdered people, but none of the truly heinous stuff actually happened. This is important when fighting against Israels treatment of palestinians and demanding a ceasefire. I said come in! fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Nov 19, 2023 |
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Nov 19, 2023 02:01
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That some degree of civilian casualties was likely caused by the IDF isn't too surprising, I'm more surprised that they'd admit that they believe the rave attack was a spontaneous decision.
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Nov 19, 2023 02:03
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I said come in! posted:Seems that way! but nothing that would cause the sort of damage that is being described. The uncomfortable truth is that the IDF likely is responsible for a good portion of the deaths that day, not hamas. I think the most likely evidence for this is that a good number of corpses were burned beyond recognition and of those at least 200 seem to have been Hamas (or at least not Israeli). It's quite likely that there are many tens, if not hundreds of others in such a state. The most reasonable explanation for those deaths is the IDF.
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Nov 19, 2023 02:04
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I said come in! posted:Seems that way! but nothing that would cause the sort of damage that is being described. The uncomfortable truth is that the IDF likely is responsible for a good portion of the deaths that day, not hamas. Do you have evidence for this beyond the few deaths they've admitted to so far. I keep seeing this claimed but nothing supporting it beyond wishes.
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Nov 19, 2023 02:04
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Zzulu posted:Hamas had pretty heavy weaponry didn't they? looks like a KORD machine gun (I cant be sure without a closer shot). 12.7 MM in either a russian or nato round. It generally uses solid projectiles. Its a small arm (usable in full by a single guy), though I pity the poor fool who actually tries to fire it from the shoulder. You would expect targets to be full of thumbprint size holes, not on fire.
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Nov 19, 2023 02:13
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Barrel Cactaur posted:looks like a KORD machine gun (I cant be sure without a closer shot). 12.7 MM in either a russian or nato round. It generally uses solid projectiles. Its a small arm (usable in full by a single guy), though I pity the poor fool who actually tries to fire it from the shoulder. You would expect targets to be full of thumbprint size holes, not on fire. Hamas also had RPGs, grenades etc So they had stuff that could definitely set stuff on far (fuel, cars) as well as cause damage to buildings. But the sheer structural damage in some places as well as the difficulty separating corpses, suggests to me a lot of Hamas people were killed *alongside* civilians, in ways that made it difficult to separate who's who. If the 200 or so dead, burnt to cinders, people died in small pockets and alone, it would have been easy to identify them. "We killed people here and they were Hamas". It strikes me that those 200, probably in pockets of a couple/a few were in dwellings with hostages and killed alongside them.
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Nov 19, 2023 02:18
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Hong XiuQuan posted:I think the most likely evidence for this is that a good number of corpses were burned beyond recognition and of those at least 200 seem to have been Hamas (or at least not Israeli). It's quite likely that there are many tens, if not hundreds of others in such a state. The most reasonable explanation for those deaths is the IDF. It's not unlikely that at least some Hamas and Islamic Jihad attackers tried to steal the cars to get to the West Bank or other targets. add a scared/incompetent helicopter gunner getting terrified and furious orders to stop whatever is going on, and I can see a lot of civilians trying to get away getting hosed by heavy fire.
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Nov 19, 2023 02:26
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