Israel/Palestine

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel/Palestine

(Thread IKs: Main Paineframe, Irony Be My Shield, punishedkissinger)

420 Gank Mid: Dec 26, 2008; WARNING: This poster is a huge bitch!

Main Paineframe posted:

Probably the best example to talk about here was the 2000 Camp David Summit negotiations. It's probably the most serious attempt at negotiating a final solution with the Palestinians

We are seeing what the Israeli's idea of a final solution is in Gaza right now

# ? Nov 20, 2023 20:18

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# ? May 11, 2024 06:48

punishedkissinger: Sep 20, 2017

Kalit posted:

Isn't the same true for Gaza? And is being almost entirely reliant on another country mean that said country has a puppet government? TBH, I've never heard that definition before.

Israeli police are allowed to operate within the West Bank and arrest/detain Palestinians there without even filing charges.

The PA maintains security forces but they are, in practice, working beneath Israel jurisdiction.

# ? Nov 20, 2023 20:19

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Darth Walrus posted:

One purely mechanical element of Israel's control of the PA is that it collects taxes on their behalf and has the final say on how those taxes are distributed.. Palestinians very literally have taxation without representation.

punishedkissinger posted:

Israeli police are allowed to operate within the West Bank and arrest/detain Palestinians there without even filing charges.

The PA maintains security forces but they are, in practice, working beneath Israel jurisdiction.

I forgot about these things, thank you for the reminder/explanation.

# ? Nov 20, 2023 20:24

TGLT: Aug 14, 2009

Yeah the core difference is Israel is generally given a relatively free hand to operate how it will in the West Bank, but it isn't in Gaza. A blockaded nation isn't necessarily a puppet government. Additionally the only and only election Abbas was subject to in 2005 had heavy interference by Israel on Abbas's behalf. Similar efforts to prevent the electoral rise of Hamas in Gaza however failed. E: An example, Mustafa Barghouti - Abbas's best performing opponent - was arrested while campaigning in East Jerusalem back in 05. The UN report describes it as an important milestone in the preliminary conclusion, but goes on to list ways in which Fatah and Israel both hosed with the elections - and there hasn't been one since so so much for "an important milestone"

You could argue the PA doesn't directly take marching orders from Israel all the time - it has occasionally halted security coordination - and so it isn't a puppet government technically, but most the time it certainly seems to operate like one.

TGLT fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Nov 20, 2023

# ? Nov 20, 2023 20:30

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Kalit posted:

Since this has come up a couple of times, can someone please explain to me how PA is a puppet state government? Preferably with their definition of puppet state government? TGLT, I read that article (thanks for posting it), but it still doesn't seem clear to me.

Maybe I'm being too pedantic, but it seems like Israel doesn't actually control PA. Of course, the PA does not resist Israel to the degree that Hamas does. But I wouldn't classify a country intimidating another country (by invading/murdering/etc) as controlling said country. If the PA was a puppet government, wouldn't Israel just tell PA something like "give up your land and tell the rest of the world that this is a mutually agreed upon plan"?

"Puppet" is perhaps a bit strong, but the PA is absolutely a collaborationist government.

It's not terribly different from how other Western client states work. Negotiations with larger powers establish a client government, but this government lacks legitimacy and popular support and tends to be inept and corrupt, so this client government increasingly relies on its foreign patrons to suppress major organized opposition to its rule, and in return the client government provides support for the foreign patron's interests.

In the West Bank, this takes the form of "security cooperation" between Israel and Palestine. Though it originates from the Oslo process, it ramped up considerably after Arafat's death as Abbas sought to use Israeli support to shore up his own position. The Palestinian Authority keeps Israel informed of troublesome Palestinian dissent, uses its own security forces to engage in active political repression of public opposition to Israeli policies, and facilitates Israeli raids to capture or kill particularly troublesome opposition figures. In return, it gets considerable economic, political, and military support from Israel and the international community. This cooperation is quite close, to the point where Palestinians have reported being released from PA prisons only to be swiftly arrested by Israel, to find that their Israeli interrogators are well aware of everything they told Palestinian interrogators.

Here's a NYT Opinion piece on it, from some pro-Palestinian voices:
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/27/opinion/subcontracting-repression-in-the-west-bank-and-gaza.html?_r=2

quote:

Subcontracting Repression in the West Bank and Gaza
By Sabrien Amrov and Alaa Tartir

Jerusalem is aflame with what the Israeli writer Uri Avnery has called an �intifada of individuals,� as outbreaks of deadly violence have followed what began with Palestinian protests over fears of encroachment by Jewish extremists on the site in the Old City known to Muslims as the Noble Sanctuary. Five Israelis were killed last week in an attack on a synagogue. Palestinian citizens of Israel, meanwhile, are in turmoil over the Nov. 8 police shooting in northern Israel of a 22-year-old protester, which was caught on videotape.

Yet the occupied West Bank shows no signs of an uprising, and the Palestinian Authority�s president, Mahmoud Abbas, has declared that there will be no third intifada. Under Mr. Abbas�s increasingly authoritarian rule, this guarantee is based largely on the authority�s close security collaboration with Israel.

The Palestinian security forces were created under the Oslo Accords, ostensibly to support the Palestinian state-building project. Initially, those forces were understood by the population to exist for its defense. During the second intifada in 2002, Palestinian security forces confronted the Israeli Army using their light weapons. Israel responded by largely destroying the Palestinian Authority�s security infrastructure.

Under the 2003 road map, however, the Palestinian Authority agreed to make �visible efforts� to arrest individuals and groups �conducting and planning violent attacks on Israelis anywhere.� Since then, Palestinian Authority security forces have responded to Israeli and international donor demands for what was termed security sector reform, led by Lt. Gen. Keith W. Dayton, who headed the Office of the United States Security Coordinator. This has led the authority�s security forces to act in increasingly repressive ways toward the population at large.

Israel�s military and security apparatus remains the biggest threat to the 4.5 million Palestinians living under Israel�s 47-year occupation in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. To take just one measure, a Ramallah-based prisoners� rights organization estimates that the Israeli authorities have arrested a cumulative total of about 800,000 Palestinians since the 1967 war.

But a growing threat to Palestinians now comes from the Palestinian security forces. Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and other rights organizations have documented numerous abuses. Palestinian security forces have tortured political prisoners and violently suppressed members not only of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, but also of the dissolved Fatah-affiliated Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. They have also stifled opposition voices and peaceful demonstrations, roughing up and arresting protesters.

Much of this is done in collaboration with Israel. During our academic research, one high-ranking official from the Palestinian Authority�s Preventive Security Force told us: �We get lists with names� from the Israelis. They �need someone, and we are tasked to get that person for them.�

These policies backfire. Palestinian forces lose the trust of local communities when they are seen as enforcing the illegal occupation and the losses of land and rights that go along with it. With no prospect of a just peace on the horizon, a subcontracted Palestinian jailer is little better than an Israeli jailer, and may even be more psychologically humiliating.

A poll of Palestinian residents of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip by the Doha-based Arab Center for Research and Policy Studies earlier this year showed that 80 percent of respondents opposed continued security coordination with Israel. The behavior of the Palestinian Authority security sector has also helped to reinforce popular support for Hamas and Islamic Jihad, because they are seen as carrying the banner of Palestinian resistance.

International donors should be concerned about the violations of rights and the political fallout since they foot the bill: In 2013 alone, the United States provided $427 million in economic assistance, of which $70 million was allocated specifically to fund the authority�s security forces. At the same time, the European Union gave $227 million in direct funding to the authority, and a further $406 million in economic aid and support for security forces.

Given these numbers, it is hardly surprising that the Palestinian Authority�s security service makes up the government�s largest department, at about 45 percent of its work force, and consumes 27 percent of the annual budget. More worrying still, security officials are being tapped to head municipalities and governorates. In its administrative and academic institutions, and its urban spaces, Palestinian society is more and more dominated by the security apparatus.

To what end do the international donors continue to subsidize an agency that helps to perpetuate the Israeli occupation, fails to meet the needs of Palestinian civilians and violates the very human rights norms they claim to uphold?

The Palestinian Authority was intended to be a short-lived administration, expiring in 1999. Today, it holds no sway in East Jerusalem, or in 60 percent of the occupied West Bank, which Israeli politicians like Economy Minister Naftali Bennett want to see annexed. The Palestinians appear to be farther away than ever from freedom and justice.

Palestinians under Israeli occupation need a police force to maintain internal law and order, but one that is accountable to the people themselves, not to Israel or the donor community. There is no question that fundamental internal reform is needed, but the stalled reconciliation between Fatah and Hamas, which briefly bore fruit in their jointly agreed Palestinian Authority government, makes it difficult to imagine this happening anytime soon.

The international donor group, however, need not wait. Donors should recognize that reforming the authority�s security forces is a nonstarter in the context of prolonged military occupation.

Some Israeli politicians may be content to see an unreformed Palestinian Authority continue to be discredited as long as this obstructs any peace settlement that would end Israel�s occupation. But this is shortsighted and ultimately self-defeating. There can be no security for Israel if Palestinians do not have their basic rights.

Sabrien Amrov is a policy author and Alaa Tartir is a program director of Al-Shabaka: The Palestinian Policy Network.

Basically, in response to Israeli and international demands, the PA actively suppresses and represses anti-Israel sentiments, and also cooperates with Israeli security forces to aid, support, and inform pretty much whatever the IDF wants to do in the West Bank. In return, Israel and international donors give substantial support to the PA's rule, giving it large amounts of money, helping to train and equip its security forces, and helping to boost it politically where possible. That active cooperation with Israel, in return for foreign help in propping up their own illegitimate and increasingly unpopular rule, is why some term them a "puppet".

Here's another take, from what was originally a Middle East Eye article written by a British I/P reporter:

https://www.jonathan-cook.net/2014-07-10/abbas-in-firing-line-over-security-cooperation-with-israel/

quote:

Abbas in firing line over security cooperation with Israel

As Israel launched a wave of air strikes against Gaza on Tuesday, dubbing the operation �Protective Edge�, a spokesman for Palestinian Authority (PA) President Mahmoud Abbas affirmed that Palestinians had �the right to defend themselves by all legitimate means�.

But critics wonder how Abbas� PA can urge Palestinians to fight back while at the same time cracking down on peaceful rallies protesting Israel�s actions.

That concern was underscored Monday night when hundreds of demonstrators gathered in the large West Bank city of Hebron to vent their anger at Israel�s mounting aggression against Hamas-controlled Gaza. Protective Edge is reported so far to have killed at least 80 Palestinians and injured more than 600.

Responding to a call by Hamas, the protesters gathered outside the al-Haras mosque after evening prayers to march with placards through the city centre. But their path was blocked by ranks of Palestinian security forces.

Scuffles broke out, said Luma Khater, a newspaper columnist who witnessed the clash. Police beat the protesters with batons, while the demonstrators responded by throwing stones. Fifteen protesters were arrested and many injured.

�People are really angry at the moment, and their anger is directed at both Israel and the PA,� said Khater. �Many people now think of them as the same.�

Protests forbidden
An order from the Ramallah-based PA to its security forces to stand aside as the Israeli army raided West Bank cities and villages, following the abduction of three Israeli teenagers on June 12, has brought the criticism out into the open.

In an operation called Brother�s Keeper to find the youths, Israel raided more than 2,000 homes in the West Bank, arrested hundreds of Palestinians and killed at least eight. Hebron took the brunt, with Israel locking the city down for days, despite its being technically under full PA control.

The bodies of the Israelis were discovered nearly three weeks later in a shallow grave close to Hebron.

Khater said the Hebron police had made clear that all demonstrations were currently forbidden in the city.

�But if the killing in Gaza continues, there will be demonstrations whether the security forces allow them or not. And sooner or later, if the police keep behaving this way, the protesters will turn their anger on the PA.�

In part, Abbas� difficulties spring from the Oslo accords, signed by the Palestinian leadership 20 years ago, which require the Palestinian and Israeli security forces to �coordinate� in the occupied territories.

In practice, say critics, that has meant Palestinian forces largely follow Israeli dictates and withdraw to their barracks when Israel wishes to enter Palestinian areas to make arrests.

In 2010 the PA�s reputation was dented by leaked cables that suggested Abbas had been warned in advance of Israel�s major attack on Gaza in late 2008 known as Cast Lead. The operation killed 1,400 Palestinians, including many civilians.

Security contractor
Mazin Qumsiyeh, a civil society leader in Bethlehem, said the Oslo accords had effectively turned the PA into a �security sub-contractor�.

�The job of the Palestinian security forces is to enforce the occupation on Israel�s behalf. People have increasingly come to understand that.�

In a sign of how unpopular such cooperation has become, crowds of Palestinian youths attacked a police station in Ramallah last month, during an incursion by the Israeli army. In unprecedented scenes, the youths shouted �Collaborators!� at the Palestinian police, attacked three police vehicles, and threw stones at the station as officers cowered inside.

Ghassan Khatib, a former PA minister who now teaches at Bir Zeit University, near Ramallah, said the events of the past weeks showed Abbas was �in trouble�.

�Israel used the raids to undermine him and the PA in the eyes of the Palestinian people,� he said. �They exposed him to a lot of internal criticism.�

Khatib said this was Israel�s retaliation for the failure in late April of US-sponsored peace talks, which collapsed after Israel refused to release a final batch of Palestinian prisoners. Abbas responded by applying to United Nations bodies for membership, over the objection of both Israel and Washington.

Avoiding confrontation
A PA official, who wished to remain anonymous because of the �extreme sensitivity� of the issue, said security coordination offered benefits. �We understand it�s not popular but it is a mechanism by which we can try to resolve security matters in ways that avoid a confrontation with Israel that could endanger our people.�

He noted that coordination helped Palestinians receive travel permits and other documents. �The reality is that without such coordination Israel would impose even more restrictions on Palestinian movement.�

But the cooperation has gone further than simply assisting the Israeli military in making arrests, as the crackdown on the Hebron rally demonstrated.

Following the gruesome murder of Mohammed Abu Khdeir in East Jerusalem early this month, apparently by Jewish extremists in revenge for the killing of the Israeli teenagers, violent protests erupted in Jerusalem and Palestinian communities across Israel.

But the West Bank stayed largely quiet, as the Palestinian security forces prevented protests in cities there.

Khatib said: �The fear in the PA is that if the protests get out of control they could quickly escalate and drag the Palestinians into a new intifada with Israel. That is an era most Palestinians do not want to return to.�

But Samer Shtayyeh, a Jerusalem academic researching the PA�s role, said the deeper fear among Palestinian leaders was that protests could quickly turn against Abbas and the PA itself.

�The PA has become the chief obstacle to resisting the occupation, so if Palestinians oppose Israel they will have to turn on the PA too.�

Coordination �sacred�
The extent of Abbas� troubles over security coordination came to the fore last week when leading members of his Fatah party were reported to have heavily criticised him at a Central Committee meeting.

According to the PA official, critics in Fatah fear that Abbas� growing identification with the policy of security cooperation is harming the party politically and is strengthening Hamas.

Recent damaging comments by Abbas have added to their concerns. In May he described security coordination with Israel as �sacred�. He further upset Palestinians by stressing last month the need to help Israel in its hunt for the Israeli teenagers, adding that security coordination would avert an uprising that could �destroy us�.

In January, Mohammed Shtayyer, a former Palestinian negotiator, broke ranks to suggest that the PA could not continue in its present form. �It should change its function to a resistance authority and not one that provides services.�

Observers agree that Abbas is in a tight spot. The US has deemed security cooperation between Israel and the PA a vital component in �confidence building�. US officials have suggested it will be a prerequisite of any future peace agreement.

But if Israel is unwilling to make concessions to advance the peace process, argue Abbas� critics, then the coordination policy simply becomes an obstacle to other forms of action to win Palestinians a state.

Embarrassing leak
That was the apparent context for a leak last month of a secretly taped conversation in which Saeb Erekat, the chief Palestinian negotiator, accused Abbas of being a �dictator�. He suggested that, to avoid a confrontation with the US, the Palestinian president had pursued futile peace negotiations rather than seek to bring Israel up on war crimes charges at the International Criminal Court (ICC) at the Hague.

In a sign that Abbas may have to concede ground to silence the criticism, he held a �crisis meeting� on Wednesday to consider signing an application to join the ICC.

That would bring him into a head-on confrontation with Israel and the US, something he has studiously avoided so far.

Qumsiyeh said Abbas dared not antagonise Washington because of fears about both the diplomatic repercussions and the loss of financial aid the PA and Fatah desperately need to pay the salaries of their supporters.

This appears to be the assessment of Israeli officials too.

In an interview with the Times of Israel newspaper last month, Shalom Harari, a former Arab affairs adviser in the Israeli defence ministry, said that Abbas� �positive statements about cooperation with Israel boost his position with the Americans and the Europeans, which are the main contributors to the PA�.

He added: �One billion dollars a year of funding don�t make [Abbas] weaker, they make him stronger.�

The danger, however, is that the price of such cooperation may be collapse of the unity government, established last month in the wake of a long-awaited reconciliation between Fatah and Hamas.

As Israel stepped up its air strikes on Gaza this week, Hamas called on the PA to �decide where they stand because this is the moment of truth�.

# ? Nov 20, 2023 20:40

Groovelord Neato: Dec 6, 2014

Saw a guy complaining that WaPo more accurately calls it the Israel-Gaza War and then see this person (whose husband I guess is an advisor to Ben-Gvir) post this video showing the IDF isn't even trying to pretend it's a war against Hamas:

https://x.com/MalkahFleisher/status/1726206430707871981?s=20

# ? Nov 20, 2023 21:29

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

Main Paineframe posted:

It's rare for them to come out and openly say it like this, but that's long been the subtext of all their accusations about Hamas operating in hospitals and UN facilities and stuff. At first glance, those accusations seem to demonize Hamas for using civilian facilities, but these narratives also often subtly imply that the civilians are allowing or cooperating with this use and therefore complicit in Hamas' crimes.

The gaza=hamas=isis poo poo is coming directly from official Israeli sources (most notably Israel's MFA) and they've been blasting that stuff out non-stop since 10/7. I'd agree that that type of 'we should just kill them all' used to be something that they were smart enough to keep behind closed doors, but 10/7 was the end of that.

Off hand I can't remember ever seeing as many openly genocidal statements coming directly from acting government officials probably ever. Usually that level of rhetoric is kept a degree or two removed and it's insane to see it coming straight out of government accounts and PR people.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 10:42 on Nov 21, 2023

# ? Nov 21, 2023 10:37

Carew: Jun 22, 2006

Herstory Begins Now posted:

The gaza=hamas=isis poo poo is coming directly from official Israeli sources (most notably Israel's MFA) and they've been blasting that stuff out non-stop since 10/7. I'd agree that that type of 'we should just kill them all' used to be something that they were smart enough to keep behind closed doors, but 10/7 was the end of that.

Off hand I can't remember ever seeing as many openly genocidal statements coming directly from acting government officials probably ever. Usually that level of rhetoric is kept a degree or two removed and it's insane to see it coming straight out of government accounts and PR people.

Yeah, according to Israeli historian/scholar Raz Segal "annihilatory language" is currently rife and just nakedly open in Israeli society. Newspapers, social media, TV, journalists, are spewing genocidal language calling for the flattening of Gaza and indiscriminate killing of its population.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUeEnjULHe0&t=1471s

# ? Nov 21, 2023 11:18

Groovelord Neato: Dec 6, 2014

Groovelord Neato posted:

Saw a guy complaining that WaPo more accurately calls it the Israel-Gaza War and then see this person (whose husband I guess is an advisor to Ben-Gvir) post this video showing the IDF isn't even trying to pretend it's a war against Hamas:

https://x.com/MalkahFleisher/status/1726206430707871981?s=20

This was deleted but it originally said "Gaza gets an upgrade" and replaced it with this:

https://x.com/MalkahFleisher/status/1726910374685843894?s=20

# ? Nov 21, 2023 14:18

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

https://x.com/asafronel/status/1726963426457739488?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q

wut

# ? Nov 21, 2023 15:10

punishedkissinger: Sep 20, 2017

always nice to contrast the stammering dismissal of the ~possibility~ of Israel committing warcrimes by US officials with the openly genocidal rhetoric of its ruling class

# ? Nov 21, 2023 15:17

Fidelitious: Apr 17, 2018; MY BIRTH CRY WILL BE THE SOUND OF EVERY WALLET ON THIS PLANET OPENING IN UNISON.

Darth Walrus posted:

https://x.com/asafronel/status/1726963426457739488?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q

wut

If I were being charitable I would read this as a metaphorical biblical reference and not that they should literally collect foreskins of their enemies.

# ? Nov 21, 2023 15:22

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Herstory Begins Now posted:

The gaza=hamas=isis poo poo is coming directly from official Israeli sources (most notably Israel's MFA) and they've been blasting that stuff out non-stop since 10/7. I'd agree that that type of 'we should just kill them all' used to be something that they were smart enough to keep behind closed doors, but 10/7 was the end of that.

Off hand I can't remember ever seeing as many openly genocidal statements coming directly from acting government officials probably ever. Usually that level of rhetoric is kept a degree or two removed and it's insane to see it coming straight out of government accounts and PR people.

The government is far more right-wing than usual. Someone like Ben-Gvir being a major government official would have been unthinkable a decade ago.

Kahanists used to be persona non grata in Israeli politics, and it's only in the last few years that Netanyahu has welcomed them into the fold as an attempt to counter the rising political pushback against him personally. Now Otzma Yehudit holds three minister seats, despite having only six Knesset seats total. It's a pretty unprecedented state of affairs.

# ? Nov 21, 2023 15:31

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

Fidelitious posted:

If I were being charitable I would read this as a metaphorical biblical reference and not that they should literally collect foreskins of their enemies.

Yes, it reference 1 Samuel 18, where David brings foreskins of 200 Philistines to Saul in order to become his son-in-law.

quote:

David took his men with him and went out and killed two hundred Philistines and brought back their foreskins. They counted out the full number to the king so that David might become the king�s son-in-law. Then Saul gave him his daughter Michal in marriage.

# ? Nov 21, 2023 15:33

Shaocaholica: Oct 29, 2002; Fig. 5E

So it�s like scalps? But you can live without a foreskin. And you can maybe live without a scalp. Well in the desert maybe harder.

# ? Nov 21, 2023 15:59

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Apparently, Israel, Hamas, and the US are all saying that they are "close" to having a deal worked out for a temporary truce and return of some of the hostages. There's not a ton of details about it yet, but initial indications are that it'll be about 50 Israeli women and children traded for about 50 Palestinian women and children in Israeli jails.

Ben-Gvir is furious, and openly opposing the deal, saying that it's a "very big mistake" which will "lead us to disaster", deriding it as "idiocy" and "delusional". He's also still mad about not being part of Netanyahu's war cabinet.

Of course, that's exactly why Netanyahu created the war cabinet - to keep fascist maniacs like him at arm's length from the actual day-to-day events of this war. Not for moral reasons, of course, but rather because they have zero political sense and absolutely no concept of restraint. As an example, let's take a look at how Otzma Yehudit MKs are handling the hostages' families:

quote:

Chaos in Knesset committee as far-right MKs yell at relatives of Hamas hostages

In a furious altercation, MKs of the far-right Otzma Yehudit party yell at family members of hostages held by Hamas in Gaza after the latter speak out against Otzma Yehudit�s proposed death penalty for terrorists, in fear that such a law could have severe repercussions for their captive relatives.

�Stop talking about killing Arabs and start speaking about saving Jews,� shouts the relative of one of the hostages whose wife and daughter are being held captive, during a hearing of the Knesset National Security Committee, which is preparing the legislation.

�You have no monopoly over pain,� yells back Otzma Yehudit MK Almog Cohen. �We have also buried more than 50 friends.�

�My friend is a hostage in Gaza, and by the way he�s never heard of you. Don�t talk about us wanting to kill Arabs. We didn�t go to kill them on that Shabbat [October 7]; they came to kill us,� he says.

Otzma Yehudit MK Limor Son Har Melech yells at the hostages� relatives: �You are silencing other families.� The hearing descends into chaos with all sides screaming at each other over the controversial legislation.

Earlier, committee chairman MK Tzvika Fogel of Otzma Yehudit said every Hamas terrorist �is an Eichmann,� in reference to the Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann who was convicted in Israel of crimes against humanity and crimes against the Jewish people, and hanged.

Fogel accuses anyone arguing against the legislation of �representing Hamas more than they represent the State of Israel.�

Asked by a family member of a hostage if he thinks the families are being used, Fogel says �I am hinting that Hamas is trying to exploit you, yes. And I�m not hinting. I�m saying it openly.�

Said Fogel: �We do not need to feed these beasts, we don�t need to continue to raise this monster� This [legislation] does not contradict the goal of bringing back the hostages. And anyone who tries to present it as a contradiction is someone who is trying to represent Hamas more than the State of Israel.�

Accusing the families of Israeli hostages of "representing Hamas" is not what I would call a savvy political move.

# ? Nov 21, 2023 16:02

Civilized Fishbot: Apr 3, 2011

Darth Walrus posted:

https://x.com/asafronel/status/1726963426457739488?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q

wut

Isn't circumcision basically universal among Muslims?

# ? Nov 21, 2023 16:07

DeadlyMuffin: Jul 3, 2007

TGLT posted:

A major reason Hamas exists in the state it does is because they did in fact eject Israel from Gaza.

This is a claim that's been made repeatedly in this thread, but I don't see it well supported when I try to look into it. This page doesn't make that argument at all, for example. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

Do you have additional sources?

# ? Nov 21, 2023 16:10

punishedkissinger: Sep 20, 2017

DeadlyMuffin posted:

This is a claim that's been made repeatedly in this thread, but I don't see it well supported when I try to look into it. This page doesn't make that argument at all, for example. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

Do you have additional sources?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada

# ? Nov 21, 2023 16:26

TGLT: Aug 14, 2009

e: ^^^ Yeah, to more directly address that, the disengagement was a consequence of the Second Intifada

DeadlyMuffin posted:

This is a claim that's been made repeatedly in this thread, but I don't see it well supported when I try to look into it. This page doesn't make that argument at all, for example. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

Do you have additional sources?

It does, actually - "Sharon said that his plan was designed to improve Israel's security and international status in the absence of political negotiations to end the Israeli�Palestinian conflict." You can additionally read this article from Britannica, the ADL's article, and even this Reuters article that all bring up the same issue - Israel could not adequately provide security to the Israeli settlements in Gaza. Violent resistance had made those settlements untenable.

TGLT fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Nov 21, 2023

# ? Nov 21, 2023 16:31

Nucleic Acids: Apr 10, 2007

Civilized Fishbot posted:

Isn't circumcision basically universal among Muslims?

I would say that Karhi either doesn�t know this or doesn�t care.

# ? Nov 21, 2023 16:53

DeadlyMuffin: Jul 3, 2007

Edit: nevermind. Did a bit more reading.

DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Nov 21, 2023

# ? Nov 21, 2023 16:57

Sephyr: Aug 28, 2012

Main Paineframe posted:

Accusing the families of Israeli hostages of "representing Hamas" is not what I would call a savvy political move.

I'm reminded of the time Bill O'Reilly had the son of someone who died in the World trade Center attacks on his show and spend all the time berating him for not being bloodthirsty enough. It was bizarrely cartoonish.

Of course, because things only get dumber, now actual government figures do it in public.

# ? Nov 21, 2023 20:41

Goosed it.: Nov 3, 2011

I didn't see this posted here. Gila Gamliel, Israel's current Minister of Intelligence, wrote a piece offering ethnic cleansing as a solution. Published by The Jerusalem Post on Sunday.

quote:

ANOTHER OPTION is to promote the voluntary resettlement of Palestinians in Gaza, for humanitarian reasons, outside of the Strip.
It is important that those who seek a life elsewhere be provided with that opportunity. Some world leaders are already discussing a worldwide refugee resettlement scheme and saying they would welcome Gazans to their countries. This could be supported by many nations around the world, especially those that claim to be friends of the Palestinians.

This is an opportunity for those who say they support the Palestinian people to show these are not just empty words.

This was also published on Sunday in Yediot Ahronot. Written by the former head of the Israeli National Security Council. English translation.

https://x.com/QudsNen/status/1726239911013982326?s=20

quote:

Israel must therefore not provide the other side with any capability that prolongs its life. Moreover, we say that Sinwar is so evil that he does not care if all the residents of Gaza die. Such a presentation is not accurate, since who are the "poor" women of Gaza? They are all the mothers, sisters or wives of Hamas murderers. On the one hand, they are part of the infrastructure that supports the organization, and on the other hand, if they experience a humanitarian disaster, then it can be assumed that some of the Hamas fighters and the more junior commanders will begin to understand that the war is futile and that it is better to prevent irreversible harm to their families.

The way to win the war faster and at a lower cost for us requires a system collapse on the other side and not the mere killing of more Hamas fighters. The international community warns us of a humanitarian disaster in Gaza and of severe epidemics. We must not shy away from this, as difficult as that may be. After all, severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring victory closer and reduce casualties among IDF soldiers. And no, this is not about cruelty for cruelty's sake, since we don't support the suffering of the other side as a goal but as a means.

quote:

When senior Israeli figures say in the media "It's either us or them" we should clarify the question of who is "them". "They" are not only Hamas fighters with weapons, but also all the "civilian" officials, including hospital administrators and school administrators, and also the entire Gaza population who enthusiastically supported Hamas and cheered on its atrocities on October 7th.

Goosed it. fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Nov 21, 2023

# ? Nov 21, 2023 21:10

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Remember that HonestReporting scam? It now has a bodycount.

https://x.com/alexcrawfordsky/status/1726818532791386512?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q

# ? Nov 21, 2023 21:22

Verisimilidude: Dec 20, 2006; Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges

Darth Walrus posted:

https://x.com/asafronel/status/1726963426457739488?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q

wut

is gathering the cummies from fallen IDF soldiers not enough for this man?

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Nov 21, 2023 21:37

Speleothing: May 6, 2008; Spare batteries are pretty key.

Glad to see that the State Department only hires the very best people.

https://twitter.com/MattBinder/status/1727044543714050396

https://twitter.com/itslaylas/status/1727059850725872010?s=20

# ? Nov 21, 2023 22:13

RoboBoogie: Sep 18, 2008

Speleothing posted:

Glad to see that the State Department only hires the very best people.

https://twitter.com/MattBinder/status/1727044543714050396

https://twitter.com/itslaylas/status/1727059850725872010?s=20

Good lord. The restraint on that guy.

# ? Nov 21, 2023 23:56

FlamingLiberal: Jan 18, 2009; Would you like to play a game?

That guy is a dead-ringer for the actor John Noble

# ? Nov 22, 2023 00:14

Piell: Sep 3, 2006; Grey Worm's Ken doll-like groin throbbed with the anticipatory pleasure that only a slightly warm and moist piece of lemoncake could offer; Young Orc

The Hamas HQ under Shifa hospital appears to be a series of doors

https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1727032434234130816

# ? Nov 22, 2023 00:20

punishedkissinger: Sep 20, 2017

Piell posted:

The Hamas HQ under Shifa hospital appears to be a series of doors

https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1727032434234130816

theyre gonna string this out for a while huh. just a matroyshka doll of Capone's safe

# ? Nov 22, 2023 00:22

cat botherer: Jan 6, 2022; I am interested in most phases of data processing.

FlamingLiberal posted:

That guy is a dead-ringer for the actor John Noble

This new season of Fringe is taking things in a bad direction IMO

# ? Nov 22, 2023 00:26

rscott: Dec 10, 2009

Speleothing posted:

Glad to see that the State Department only hires the very best people.

https://twitter.com/MattBinder/status/1727044543714050396

https://twitter.com/itslaylas/status/1727059850725872010?s=20

https://twitter.com/elivalley/status/1727095854300065891?t=U5z0iXZmVKDxBcLD09pwRw&s=19

So according to this, this guy was pretty high up in the state department right around the camp David meetings right through the second intifada. Seems to definitely line up with the reports about the US being biased towards Israel during that crucial time period.

# ? Nov 22, 2023 01:18

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

I am curious about the circumstances of his departure from government.

# ? Nov 22, 2023 01:53

Kavros: May 18, 2011; sleep sleep sleep
fly fly post post
sleep sleep sleep

Speleothing posted:

Glad to see that the State Department only hires the very best people.

What I'm left wondering right now is how to figure out which portion of this blend is "state department folks proving to us what the higher ups culture really was for decades" and which portion of it is "example of how quickly and profoundly Fox News Boomerbrain can turn even prestigious and influential people into drooling psycho ramblers"

# ? Nov 22, 2023 02:06

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Speleothing posted:

Glad to see that the State Department only hires the very best people.

https://twitter.com/MattBinder/status/1727044543714050396

Saldowitz was not the director of the NSC under Obama. James Jones, Thomas Donilon, and Susan Rice were.

Sounds like this Matt Binder is completely lying, making him a non-credible source in my opinion.

E VVVV: Thank you for clarifying.

Kalit fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Nov 22, 2023

# ? Nov 22, 2023 02:08

Happy Noodle Boy: Jul 3, 2002

Kalit posted:

Hmmm� this Matt Binder person, host of ScamEconomy.com and DOOMEDcast.com sure seems like a credible person. Claiming that Saldowitz was the director of the NSC under Obama. Must have snuck in between James Jones, Thomas Donilon, and/or Susan Rice�.

Can you please not post right wing bullshit ITT?

Matt Binder may be a lot of things but a right wing guy he very much is not. Unless this is sarcasm and I�m genuinely misreading you.

# ? Nov 22, 2023 02:17

Corambis: Feb 14, 2023

A slight mix-up, perhaps. Per his (since deleted) bio he was acting director of the Nat. Sec. Council South Asia Directorate.

# ? Nov 22, 2023 02:25

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Corambis posted:

A slight mix-up, perhaps. Per his (since deleted) bio he was acting director of the Nat. Sec. Council South Asia Directorate.

quote:

In the early 2000s, he worked as Acting Director for the National Security Council South Asia Directorate under the order of the Executive Office of the President.

That seemed to have been under Bush. And that position is a lot different than the director of the NSC, as Binder claims.

Kalit fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Nov 22, 2023

# ? Nov 22, 2023 02:29

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 11, 2024 06:48

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

Kalit posted:

Hmmm� this Matt Binder person, host of ScamEconomy.com and DOOMEDcast.com sure seems like a credible person. Claiming that Saldowitz was the director of the NSC under Obama. Must have snuck in between James Jones, Thomas Donilon, and/or Susan Rice�.

Can you please not post right wing bullshit ITT?

Binder, who is a longstanding left-wing tech reporter notable for antagonizing Elon Musk enough that Musk gave him a free bluecheck to try to own him, is 100% accurately reporting what Mr. Seldowitz' employer claimed his previous title was, in their announcement, less than a year ago, that he was their Foreign Affairs Chair. For what its worth, it appears that they/Seldowitz were the ones who decided to stretch the truth, by calling him a former NSC Director when in fact he was the Acting Director of the NSC South Asian Directorate.

https://twitter.com/MattBinder/status/1727045580038517143

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Nov 22, 2023 02:30

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