Libertarians: You fire fighter lovers sure are good at debate!

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Venomous: Nov 7, 2011

Enver Zogha posted:

To be fair, historian Clement Eaton (in his The Freedom-of-Thought Struggle in the Old South) made the point that many Southern slaveowners in the late 18th and early 19th centuries held liberal views (including the gradual ending of slavery), most obviously Jefferson himself who at the time defended the Jacobin use of terror whereas the Federalists abhorred it and were more inclined to side with Britain against revolutionary France. But as slavery became far more profitable and sectional divisions were consolidated, slaveowners and their descendants became increasingly conservative. By the 1850s defenders of slavery like Calhoun and Ruffin criticized the deceased Jefferson for his "irresponsible" radicalism and notion that all men are created equal. Another leading defender (George Fitzhugh) wrote, "The true greatness of Mr. Jefferson was his fitness for revolution. He was the genius of innovation, the architect of ruin, the inaugurator of anarchy. His mission was to pull down, not to build up. He thought everything false as well as in the physical, as in the moral world. He fed his horses on potatoes, and defended harbors with gun-boats, because it was contrary to human experience and human opinion. He proposed to govern boys without the authority of masters or the control of religion, supplying their places with Laissez-faire philosophy, and morality from the pages of Lawrence Sterne. His character, like his philosophy, is exceptional—invaluable in urging on revolution, but useless, if not dangerous, in quiet times."

When Federalist pastors and politicians were denouncing Jefferson as a crypto-atheist whose attitude to religion ("it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg") would lead to people murdering and thieving en masse in the absence of divine punishment, I wouldn't say these were expressing liberal views. When Jefferson suggested that constitutions are only really valid for about a generation before having to be replaced, and that a little rebellion by citizens now and then is good for the body politic, these were quite far from the Federalists' "law and order" approach.

"Liberal" and "conservative" can be rather difficult to apply to early American politics, but contemporary European visitors (Tocqueville, Thomas Hamilton's Men and Manners in America, etc.) did seem to regard the Federalists as having a notably stronger "argh the common people are a danger" sentiment and thus more congenial to European notions of conservatism which feared that universal suffrage would lead to the abolition of private property.

This is all completely fair. I was very much oversimplifying there, and I admit I was conflating the later conservative slaveholders with the Jeffersonians who preceded them. Thank you very much for the elaboration here. I was more thinking about how the Federalists weren't particularly keen on European aristocracies and were more interested in empowering the capitalist class, but like you say, Jefferson wasn't that keen on aristocracy himself.

I guess if you're putting it in European terms, the American Revolution was largely based on liberal principles, yet the Federalists (and I guess later the Republicans) were more classical liberals in the Adam Smith and John Locke vein, the Jeffersonians were classical radicals after Beckford, Bentham and that, and the Democrats became conservatives without a monarchy, but like you say, that is most likely an oversimplification.

e: also, I cannot stress enough that the founding fathers were all massive racialists, and as mentioned at the end of the last page, their white supremacy very much came before any liberalism lmao

Venomous fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Nov 6, 2023

# ? Nov 6, 2023 21:07

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# ? May 20, 2024 12:15

Enver Zogha: Nov 12, 2008; The modern revisionists and reactionaries call us Stalinists, thinking that they insult us and, in fact, that is what they have in mind. But, on the contrary, they glorify us with this epithet; it is an honor for us to be Stalinists.

Captain_Maclaine posted:

To expand, his personal philosophy was, boiled down, that work was something best left to other people (ie slaves) so that properly refined individuals like himself would have time and leisure to think and philosophize and invent, etc.

If I recall right, Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia contain what he considered an "ideal" form of society, which is pretty much a town-sized republic where everyone owns their own plot of land and labors for themselves, and that these petty republics would be spread across the land. Such an "ideal" society is clearly impractical though and would have provided scarcely any room for "intellectual" pursuits, so he ended up distinguishing between a "natural aristocracy" (aka innately talented and/or "good" individuals) and an "artificial aristocracy" (aka people who are powerful merely due to their birth or wealth), and that the people through voting could give the "natural aristocracy" its proper place while keeping the "artificial aristocracy" at bay.

My issue was the notion that the Federalists must have been the "liberals" of their day because they were more closely bound up with the country's capitalist development. I'd argue that in the conditions of the late 18th century, Jefferson's status as a slaveowner ironically made him more amenable to certain "liberal" notions (e.g. he could afford to take a detached, somewhat sympathetic view of the intentions of Shays' Rebellion whereas the Federalists saw such unrest as a direct threat to their own financial and political interests.) Needless to say though that when liberal notions could be used to violently shake the slave system (as in the Haitian Revolution), he wasn't interested in that.

Venomous posted:

I guess if you're putting it in European terms, the American Revolution was largely based on liberal principles, yet the Federalists (and I guess later the Republicans) were more classical liberals in the Adam Smith and John Locke vein

Even the "classical liberal" label is an awkward fit. Remember, Alexander Hamilton was relatively big on government intervention to protect domestic manufactures (South Korean strongman Park Chung Hee's economic policies were occasionally likened to Hamilton's, although the comparison isn't exact.) A lot of Whigs were into what was termed the "American System" of economics, with the state serving a paternalistic role providing infrastructure, tariffs, and other measures facilitating capitalist development. Lincoln largely agreed with such measures, and it's part of why libertarians decry him as a vile statist evildoer.

By contrast, the Jeffersonians and Jacksonians were more closely identified with a laissez-faire approach (though the Democratic Party's attitude was never wholly consistent, and during the 1820s-50s there were occasions in the South where tariffs were considered cool and good when they benefited the slave system of one or more states.)

Enver Zogha fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Nov 7, 2023

# ? Nov 6, 2023 21:15

SpeakSlow: May 17, 2004; by Fluffdaddy

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

https://twitter.com/RichardHanania/status/1721191213381066880

"Hallmarks of the Lower Classes" is my Emo Ska band name.

# ? Nov 7, 2023 18:49

mojo1701a: Oct 9, 2008; Oh, yeah. Loud and clear. Emphasis on LOUD!
~ David Lee Roth

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

https://twitter.com/RichardHanania/status/1721191213381066880

I still don't know who he is. Like, I have never seen anything from him until the last month or two but apparently he's everywhere.

# ? Nov 7, 2023 18:53

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

mojo1701a posted:

I still don't know who he is. Like, I have never seen anything from him until the last month or two but apparently he's everywhere.

The short version is that he is a libertarian/paleoconservative policy guy who has been trying to make conservative populism a thing for a while as part of a push away from "big business" conservatism.

Then, Trump took a lot of his ideas and succeeded and he was writing about how Trump did it wrong and what real libertarian/populist conservatism should be.

He finally started to take off for a while because he said Trump was tainting populist conservatism with incompetence and racism. Then, it turned out that he had a bunch of old tweets with racism and there was "discourse" over whether someone who used to be racist and says they changed many years ago should still have his new policy ideas listened to or considered an intellectual.

He has since renounced explicit racism, but still holds a ton of very out there beliefs and likes to troll people on Twitter with "challenging" thought experiments. He's also still pretty racist, just not explicitly.

# ? Nov 7, 2023 19:08

PhazonLink: Jul 17, 2010

lol at phone elitism still being a thing.

# ? Nov 8, 2023 18:08

Panfilo: Aug 27, 2011; EXISTENCE IS PAIN😬

Libertarian Jesus is now president of Argentina, apparently
https://twitter.com/LPNational/status/1726378910705750372?t=9V6f4Rid7tmYjlfQymEchg&s=19

# ? Nov 20, 2023 07:38

Rappaport: Oct 2, 2013

We're so sorry, Argentina :smith:

# ? Nov 20, 2023 09:07

Staluigi: Jun 22, 2021

In two months, argentina will have been consumed by bears

# ? Nov 20, 2023 10:24

Mr. Nemo: Feb 4, 2016; I wish I had a sister like my big strong Daddy

Rappaport posted:

We're so sorry, Argentina

Lol at americans making everything about themselves.

We dug this hole on our own, and his proposals are nothing that hasn't been tried before (with bad results).

# ? Nov 20, 2023 18:13

Panfilo: Aug 27, 2011; EXISTENCE IS PAIN😬

Staluigi posted:

In two months, argentina will have been consumed by bears

With any luck the unregulated donuts will have poisoned the bears to death before it gets too bad.

# ? Nov 20, 2023 18:47

Killer robot: Sep 6, 2010; I was having the most wonderful dream. I think you were in it!; Pillbug

The real question is whether he'll move to Florida when he gets voted out again.

# ? Nov 20, 2023 19:02

I AM GRANDO: Aug 20, 2006

I don�t see why he even ran, to be honest. The age of consent in Brazil is already 14.

EDIT: Oh, I do understand perfectly now�I lost track of the discussion. The age of consent in Argentina is 18.

# ? Nov 20, 2023 19:24

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

The new President of Argentina wants to rename the Department of Education to "The Department of Indoctrination" and then abolish it.

He's also a libertarian who says his number one priority is banning abortion and banning Pope Francis from coming into the country.

Bonus points: He won the biggest victory in Argentinian history with a landslide double-digit margin of victory and pledges to shut down the central bank and essentially eliminate the country's national currency.

He wants to dollarize the economy, which is not a terrible idea given the inflation and issues with the peso, but Argentina is about 60% short of the actual currency amount needed to dollarize the economy fully and he won't actually explain how he plans to resolve that issue.

Gonna be some interesting times there.

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1726634010112102722

quote:

BUENOS AIRES � A radical libertarian and admirer of Donald Trump rode a wave of voter rage to win Argentina�s presidency on Sunday, crushing the political establishment and bringing the sharpest turn to the right in four decades of democracy in the country.

Javier Milei, a 53-year-old far-right economist and former television pundit with no governing experience, claimed nearly 56 percent of the vote in a stunning upset over Sergio Massa, the center-left economy minister who has struggled to resolve the country�s worst economic crisis in two decades. Even before the official results had been announced Sunday night, Massa acknowledged defeat and congratulated Milei on his win.

Trump also congratulated Milei. �I am very proud of you,� Trump wrote on his Truth Social platform. �You will turn your Country around and Make Argentina Great Again!�

Voters in this nation of 46 million demanded a drastic change from a government that has sent the peso tumbling, inflation skyrocketing and more than 40 percent of the population into poverty. With Milei, Argentina takes a leap into the unknown � with a leader promising to shatter the entire system.

In his first speech as president-elect, Milei told Argentines that �the model of decadence has reached its end. There is no turning back.�

�Enough of the impoverishing power of the caste,� he said. �Today we once again embrace the model of liberty, to once again become a world power.� His supporters joined him in shouting: �Long live freedom, drat it!�

Milei will take office on Dec. 10, the 40th anniversary of Argentina�s return to democracy after the fall of its military dictatorship.

Wielding chain saws on the campaign trail, the wild-haired Milei vowed to slash public spending in a country heavily dependent on government subsidies. He pledged to dollarize the economy, shut down the central bank and cut the number of government ministries from 18 to eight. His rallying campaign cry was a takedown of the country�s political �caste� � an Argentine version of Trump�s �drain the swamp.�

Massa was emblematic of that ruling elite � �the king of the caste,� political analyst Pablo Touz�n said. The career politician attempted to distance himself from the leftist government of Alberto Fern�ndez and Cristina Fern�ndez de Kirchner, the heirs to the populist dynasty first launched by Juan and Eva �Evita� Per�n in the 1940s. Along with a grass-roots campaign of activists, Massa sought to stoke fear over a Milei presidency they argued could threaten Argentina�s democracy and way of life.

But ultimately, anger won over fear. For many Argentines, the bigger risk was more of the same.

�We don�t have anything to lose,� Tom�s Limodio, said a 36-year-old business owner who voted for Milei in Buenos Aires on Sunday. �We�ve had this type of government for so many years, and things are only getting worse.�

Acknowledging his defeat Sunday night, Massa told supporters the results were �not what we had hoped for� and marked the end of a political chapter of his life. At the campaign headquarters, supporters consoled each other. A young woman burst into tears.

�There were two paths,� Massa said. �We chose the path of the defense of the security system in the hands of the state � the path of the defense of education and public health as central values. Argentines chose the other path.�

Milei�s landslide victory makes him the most-voted president in a runoff since the return of democracy in Argentina. The results suggest that many of those who said they would vote in blank, and did not feel represented by either candidate, ended up choosing Milei, political analyst Mariel Fornoni said. �Evidently, people were not afraid to change,� she said.

A Milei presidency brings the far right to power in the third-largest economy in Latin America, and it could have profound implications for the region and the world. In a continent dominated by leftist leaders, Milei could create tensions with governments he has attacked, including crucial trading partner and neighbor Brazil. In an era of growing Chinese influence in Latin America, Milei could become the region�s most vocal antagonist to a country he once called �an assassin.�

Milei made a name for himself as a television pundit who insulted other guests, and he has shown a tendency to fight with the news media. He has circulated conspiracy theories and raised unsubstantiated claims about electoral fraud. In presidential debates, he has cast doubt on the widely accepted tally of murders during the country�s Dirty War from 1976 to 1983.

He has branded Pope Francis, an Argentine, an �evil� leftist. Climate change, he says, is a �socialist lie.� He would hold a referendum to undo the three-year-old law that legalized abortion.

# ? Nov 20, 2023 21:16

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

He's also a libertarian who says his number one priority is banning abortion and banning Pope Francis from coming into the country.

Finally a government small enough to fit in every uterus

# ? Nov 20, 2023 23:02

Mr. Nemo: Feb 4, 2016; I wish I had a sister like my big strong Daddy

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

The new President of Argentina wants to rename the Department of Education to "The Department of Indoctrination" and then abolish it.

He wants to fold the minstry of Education with Work and Health to have a more holistic vision and reduce the total number of workers.

He does want to abolish the "Ministry of Women" and claims public TV and radio are propaganda and wants to privatize that.

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

He's also a libertarian who says his number one priority is banning abortion and banning Pope Francis from coming into the country.

Banning abortion is not his number one priority at all, he probably won't bother with it because there's a pretty solid majority of people in favor of it, and unlike the US the people there do know how to protest.

He HAS called Pope Francis an "emissary of the evil one" and supporter of bloody dictatorships, in reference to Venezuela. Pope Francis has not visited Argentina since he got the position, not even with a favorable government, no chance he'd come with Milei in power.

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Bonus points: He won the biggest victory in Argentinian history with a landslide double-digit margin of victory

He won an extremely tight runoff race. The elections in 2007 ended with a 20% advantage, 2011 with nearly 40% in FIRST ROUND. Not even close to the largest win in the last 15 years.

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Pledges to shut down the central bank and essentially eliminate the country's national currency.

He wants to dollarize the economy, which is not a terrible idea given the inflation and issues with the peso, but Argentina is about 60% short of the actual currency amount needed to dollarize the economy fully and he won't actually explain how he plans to resolve that issue.

Shutting down the central bank and dollarization are both part of a 12 year plan that's clearly not feasible but earned him, let's say 10-15% of his votes. He has explained how he'd achieve dollarization, the merits of that plan are VERY debatable, but he has exaplined a plan.

Holy poo poo dude, he is anti abortion, denies climate change, pro liberalizing gun ownership and will argue about the merits of the last military dictatorship argentina had.

He has enough bad ideas to not need to make poo poo up. There is enough fear to be had without resorting to fake news.

# ? Nov 21, 2023 03:03

HootTheOwl: May 13, 2012; Hootin and shootin

VitalSigns posted:

Finally a government small enough to fit in every uterus

Lmao

# ? Nov 21, 2023 03:32

Panfilo: Aug 27, 2011; EXISTENCE IS PAIN😬

Been seeing reactionaries make a lot of noise about how Argentina managed to count 32 million paper ballots quickly and efficiently and that the US needs to make this mandatory as a result.

# ? Nov 21, 2023 03:35

DarklyDreaming: Apr 4, 2009; Fun scary

Panfilo posted:

Been seeing reactionaries make a lot of noise about how Argentina managed to count 32 million paper ballots quickly and efficiently and that the US needs to make this mandatory as a result.

Well here's how they did it in 5 simple steps... He's already left the room. No answer would satisfy anyone complaining about American voter fraud

# ? Nov 21, 2023 03:39

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Mr. Nemo posted:

He wants to fold the minstry of Education with Work and Health to have a more holistic vision and reduce the total number of workers.

He does want to abolish the "Ministry of Women" and claims public TV and radio are propaganda and wants to privatize that.

Banning abortion is not his number one priority at all, he probably won't bother with it because there's a pretty solid majority of people in favor of it, and unlike the US the people there do know how to protest.

He HAS called Pope Francis an "emissary of the evil one" and supporter of bloody dictatorships, in reference to Venezuela. Pope Francis has not visited Argentina since he got the position, not even with a favorable government, no chance he'd come with Milei in power.

He won an extremely tight runoff race. The elections in 2007 ended with a 20% advantage, 2011 with nearly 40% in FIRST ROUND. Not even close to the largest win in the last 15 years.

Shutting down the central bank and dollarization are both part of a 12 year plan that's clearly not feasible but earned him, let's say 10-15% of his votes. He has explained how he'd achieve dollarization, the merits of that plan are VERY debatable, but he has exaplined a plan.

Holy poo poo dude, he is anti abortion, denies climate change, pro liberalizing gun ownership and will argue about the merits of the last military dictatorship argentina had.

He has enough bad ideas to not need to make poo poo up. There is enough fear to be had without resorting to fake news.

Those are all quotes from the WaPo article.

He says he will hold a referendum to ban abortion.

quote:

He would hold a referendum to undo the three-year-old law that legalized abortion.

This is a video of him saying he thinks the ministry of education should be called the ministry of indoctrination and then saying he would abolish it:

https://twitter.com/SocraticDaily/status/1693066190208311740

WaPo says he won the most votes of any candidate since the return of democracy in Argentina:

quote:

Javier Milei, a 53-year-old far-right economist and former television pundit with no governing experience, claimed nearly 56 percent of the vote in a stunning upset over Sergio Massa.

Milei�s landslide victory makes him the most-voted president in a runoff since the return of democracy in Argentina. The results suggest that many of those who said they would vote in blank, and did not feel represented by either candidate, ended up choosing Milei, political analyst Mariel Fornoni said. �Evidently, people were not afraid to change,� she said.

WaPo says his dollarization plan is $50 billion short and he has no explanation for how they cover that gap.

quote:

That�s because the central bank would need enough dollar reserves not only to purchase all currency in circulation but to provide a credible cushion to banks to handle a potential surge in withdrawals. Local analysts estimate net foreign reserves at negative $6.5 billion to as low as negative $10 billion, or about $50 billion short of what might be necessary to consider dollarization.

Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Nov 21, 2023

# ? Nov 21, 2023 04:25

Barrel Cactaur: Oct 6, 2021

VitalSigns posted:

Finally a government small enough to fit in every uterus

Thread title please

# ? Nov 21, 2023 04:58

Mr. Nemo: Feb 4, 2016; I wish I had a sister like my big strong Daddy

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Those are all quotes from the WaPo article.

Maybe it's not a great article OP. All the US based articles try to make a 1 to 1 parallel to trump because that's what their audience understands.

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

He says he will hold a referendum to ban abortion.

He said that, yet it's literally against the constitution to put that to vote. It's not the type of consultation that can be put to a referendum.

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

This is a video of him saying he thinks the ministry of education should be called the ministry of indoctrination and then saying he would abolish it:
https://twitter.com/SocraticDaily/status/1693066190208311740

"How will the state look like? "Ministry of Human Capital"". That's literally the first one he mentions, which will contain the tasks of Education, Work and Health.

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

WaPo says he won the most votes of any candidate since the return of democracy in Argentina:

That's very different from what you said. He had the biggest victory in a runoff, FYI, most of the elections since then didn{t get to a runoff because they were more curshing.

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

WaPo says his dollarization plan is $50 billion short and he has no explanation for how they cover that gap.

Again, he has presented his plan, some people says it works, some say it doesn't, I'm not making a judgement. And the WaPo article only mentions reserves not being enough for a dollarization, it doesn{t even cover what his plan is to get those dollars.

poo poo, maybe i shouldn't hope "Leon trostky 2012" to do his research.

# ? Nov 21, 2023 05:38

Agents are GO!: Dec 29, 2004

Grace Baiting posted:

clickhole remains winner

🦀

🦀

Panfilo posted:

Libertarian Jesus is now president of Argentina, apparently
https://twitter.com/LPNational/status/1726378910705750372?t=9V6f4Rid7tmYjlfQymEchg&s=19

Agents are GO! fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Nov 21, 2023

# ? Nov 21, 2023 06:08

Jesus III: May 23, 2007

This guy is just a party to himself, right? How will he get anything done? Winning gives him a big platform, but does he have enough support in the legislature?

# ? Nov 21, 2023 13:47

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Jesus III posted:

This guy is just a party to himself, right? How will he get anything done? Winning gives him a big platform, but does he have enough support in the legislature?

He is not quite a party of himself, but it's pretty close. His party only has about 8% of the seats in the Senate.

Argentina is also a highly federalized system and he has no governors or regional mayors in his party. It's not clear exactly what part of his agenda is going through the legislature.

Reuters says that his dollarization plan doesn't have support in the legislature, so he is likely going to focus on spending cuts first.

Other than spending cuts, there are a few areas where he has emergency powers he can use, but how much of the rest of the agenda makes it into law is basically a big mystery.

It's gonna be some pretty wild times.

His dollarization plan is going to be a rough transition, very difficult to raise the money needed, and unclear how successful it will be given economic and political problems. But, even that is probably a better political option for him than maintaining 143% inflation with the peso.

Argentina's currency is really hosed and experiencing inflation in a way that is several magnitudes worse than every other country who saw 9-12% inflation during the pandemic. Part of it is from the economic crisis they had in 2018, part of it is from the last government devaluing the currency, part of it is the pandemic, and part of it is the dollar strengthening. That is basically what drove the left-wing party to death against an unknown libertarian extremist and it's not 100% clear that there is any realistic short-term solution.

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/argentinas-milei-must-learn-political-game-make-changes-he-seeks-2023-11-20/

Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Nov 21, 2023

# ? Nov 21, 2023 15:16

Mr. Nemo: Feb 4, 2016; I wish I had a sister like my big strong Daddy

Jesus III posted:

This guy is just a party to himself, right? How will he get anything done? Winning gives him a big platform, but does he have enough support in the legislature?

Had he lost the entire party would've collapsed, there is no party.

He will have to govern by coalition with the 2015-19 guys. Some of them didn't support him during the runoff, some may fold now that he won and they smell the chance for power/money.

He can get a lot done without the legislature. Certain appointments to Justice, central bank.

He wants to reduce the government and lower taxes. It makes more sense to reduce spending before he cuts off the income they get, so he will probably start by firing state people and trying to get rid of state run companies that lose money. But probably no foreign investor wants to get money in Argentina, there is no discount rate to make that a sensible decision.

According to him, 90% of the taxes that exist make up just 2% of all government income, some of those can be eliminated at the province level.

# ? Nov 21, 2023 16:05

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Mr. Nemo posted:

Had he lost the entire party would've collapsed, there is no party.

He will have to govern by coalition with the 2015-19 guys. Some of them didn't support him during the runoff, some may fold now that he won and they smell the chance for power/money.

He can get a lot done without the legislature. Certain appointments to Justice, central bank.

He wants to reduce the government and lower taxes. It makes more sense to reduce spending before he cuts off the income they get, so he will probably start by firing state people and trying to get rid of state run companies that lose money. But probably no foreign investor wants to get money in Argentina, there is no discount rate to make that a sensible decision.

According to him, 90% of the taxes that exist make up just 2% of all government income, some of those can be eliminated at the province level.

Is his argument that the administration costs of collecting 2% of all tax revenue are significantly higher than all the revenue collected, so eliminating them will actually improve cash flow? That seems like a wild claim.

Cutting spending and then cutting revenue is a way to shrink the size of government, but it isn't a good way to fix a major fiscal imbalance. If I can't pay my bills and I cut my spending by 10% and then take a 10% pay cut, then I haven't actually improved my fiscal situation at all.

# ? Nov 21, 2023 16:15

Mr. Nemo: Feb 4, 2016; I wish I had a sister like my big strong Daddy

No, his claim is the tax system in Argentina has gone out of control. With business having to juggle over 60 taxes depending on where/how they operate.

You see international companies complaining about this, you see local existing companies complaining about this, and people wanting to start a business complaining about this.

He wants to simplify everything into a logical number.

# ? Nov 21, 2023 16:33

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Mr. Nemo posted:

No, his claim is the tax system in Argentina has gone out of control. With business having to juggle over 60 taxes depending on where/how they operate.

You see international companies complaining about this, you see local existing companies complaining about this, and people wanting to start a business complaining about this.

He wants to simplify everything into a logical number.

I see. The argument is about promoting economic growth through a simpler tax code. That at least makes more sense in terms of fixing a budget shortfall.

# ? Nov 21, 2023 16:35

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

What's his position on the Islas Malvinas?

# ? Nov 21, 2023 16:47

Vahakyla: May 3, 2013

Same as anyone else essentially.

�They are Argentine and we should aim to get them� but won�t commit to a plan.

# ? Nov 21, 2023 16:50

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

VitalSigns posted:

What's his position on the Islas Malvinas?

He says Argentina owns the territory and it has a "non-negotiable claim" of total sovereignty over the islands, but they should get their inflation under control before bringing them fully into the country.

He wants a "diplomatic blitz" of unspecified methods to get the U.K. to give it back and another Falkland War should be an absolute last resort.

quote:

Javier Milei: Argentina has �non-negotiable� sovereignty over Falklands

His position is that any transfer of power should be peaceful and that Argentina first needs to transform its economy, where inflation is running at 143 per cent.

quote:

Argentina possesses �legitimate and inalienable sovereignty� over the islands and the corresponding maritime waters.

A statement on the Argentine government�s website said: �The recovery of these territories and the full exercise of its sovereignty, respecting the way of life of its inhabitants and following the principles of International Law, constitutes a permanent and irrevocable objective of the Argentine people.�

Basically, this:

Vahakyla posted:

Same as anyone else essentially.

�They are Argentine and we should aim to get them� but won�t commit to a plan.

# ? Nov 21, 2023 16:52

Barrel Cactaur: Oct 6, 2021

Note that this is a mandatory position, as it's part of the dumb populist id left over from the collapse of the dictatorship.

The UK considers it a self governing overseas territory. Basically it's on the UK security umbrella, everyone is UK citizens, but it's domestic politics are independent. 99% of the population approves of this, because anything else would just get rolled up by gunboat diplomacy.

Literally the only good thing conservativism has ever done.

Barrel Cactaur fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Nov 21, 2023

# ? Nov 21, 2023 16:53

Tom Clancy is Dead: Jul 13, 2011

I'm guessing Argentina will see some small short term gains from him selling off anything he's allowed to privatize purely using presidential powers before the continued inflation and lack of functional governance cut his term short and/or collapse large portions of society.

It's going to suck to realize they've taken an even worse economic option than their historical military coups.

# ? Nov 21, 2023 17:24

Vahakyla: May 3, 2013

Barrel Cactaur posted:

Note that this is a mandatory position, as it's part of the dumb populist id left over from the collapse of the dictatorship.

The UK considers it a self governing overseas territory. Basically it's on the UK security umbrella, everyone is UK citizens, but it's domestic politics are independent. 99% of the population approves of this, because anything else would just get rolled up by gunboat diplomacy.

Literally the only good thing conservativism has ever done.

Yeh, Falklands is a pretty rare British W because Falklanders are basically unanimous in how much they think their life owns under British protection, and how much say they have in their own governance.
It's pretty neat.

One of these three "no" votes was confirmed to be an edgy kid who did it for the luls.

The two disqualified ones were one blank and one invalid vote each, the latter coming from a voter who both ticked the Yes box and crossed the No one.

Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Nov 21, 2023

# ? Nov 21, 2023 17:30

Killer robot: Sep 6, 2010; I was having the most wonderful dream. I think you were in it!; Pillbug

Vahakyla posted:

Yeh, Falklands is a pretty rare British W because Falklanders are basically unanimous in how much they think their life owns under British protection, and how much say they have in their own governance.
It's pretty neat.

One of these three "no" votes was confirmed to be an edgy kid who did it for the luls.

The two disqualified ones were one blank and one invalid vote each, the latter coming from a voter who both ticked the Yes box and crossed the No one.

Probably not unrelated that it's also a rare case of Europeans discovering and settling new lands since the islands, though visited by South Americans in antiquity, were entirely uninhabited when the British first landed there.

# ? Nov 21, 2023 17:50

Mr. Nemo: Feb 4, 2016; I wish I had a sister like my big strong Daddy

Milei praised tatcher on live tv.

As far as argentinians are concerned nothing else matters, he supports the British claim.

Quote whatever you want from him, won�t change that.

Praising tatcher and denying the crimes/justifying the last dictatorship are such unforced errors it�s a womder he got elected.

The pope called him today, and Milei invited hom to Argentina (almost no chance he does), so scratch that off the list

# ? Nov 21, 2023 19:16

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

The Vatican City deep state got to him already.

# ? Nov 21, 2023 19:17

SlothfulCobra: Mar 27, 2011

https://twitter.com/InsaneRealitys/status/1726765075585708301

# ? Nov 21, 2023 22:11

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# ? May 20, 2024 12:15

Panfilo: Aug 27, 2011; EXISTENCE IS PAIN😬

A Libertarians dream come true, apparently.
https://twitter.com/davidrkadler/status/1735666098127733129?t=1eh3p_2KBPvMlEoT1JRqZA&s=19

# ? Dec 15, 2023 16:59

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Libertarians: You fire fighter lovers sure are good at debate!

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