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Slo-Tek posted:A Kaman heavy lift helicopter is dismantling a radio tower down the way from me. God they are weird looking. Too weird to live? https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2023-01-19/kaman-ending-production-k-max-heavy-lift-helicopter I think it's kind of cute.
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Nov 21, 2023 02:25
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K-Max helicopters are terrifying, given that helicopters on their own are a testament to man's hubris over God and physics, a synchromesh dual rotor is infinity times that. Especially when you come tromping out of the woods five miles and end up face to face with one filling up at a watering hole while firefighting. RIP to a useful and modern airframe
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Nov 21, 2023 08:36
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Was Kaman purchased by private equity recently? Because the article's repeated mentions of "growth" smacks of the "we're going to stop doing (or make worse) a thing we do that's profitable and sustainable just because it shows no signs of being way more profitable in the near future" moves that private equity loves to make.
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Nov 21, 2023 14:46
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This is concerning. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/21/world/europe/ukraine-israel-gps-jamming-spoofing.html quote:Planes are losing satellite signals, flights have been diverted and pilots have received false location reports or inaccurate warnings that they were flying close to terrain, according to European Union safety regulators and an internal airline memo viewed by The New York Times. The Federal Aviation Administration has also warned pilots about GPS jamming in the Middle East. Commercial air traffic in the Middle East is routinely being GPS-spoofed. But then this Vice article mentions something that the NYT doesn't: https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7bk3v/commercial-flights-are-experiencing-unthinkable-gps-attacks-and-nobody-knows-what-to-do quote:In late September, multiple commercial flights near Iran went astray after navigation systems went blind. The planes first received spoofed GPS signals, meaning signals designed to fool planes’ systems into thinking they are flying miles away from their real location. One of the aircraft almost flew into Iranian airspace without permission. Since then, air crews discussing the problem online have said it’s only gotten worse, and experts are racing to establish who is behind it. I'd say.
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Nov 21, 2023 16:40
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Somewhere an 80 year old retired flight engineer is unpacking his celestial navigation sextant.
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Nov 21, 2023 17:04
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Boeing and Airbus to offer cockpit periscope sextant as an option. e: 
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Nov 21, 2023 17:40
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Stupid question but don't most airliners(in the US anyway) fly victor airways? Couldn't they just use VOR's to confirm GPS data?
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Nov 21, 2023 17:48
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wasn't celestial navigation automated to some extent during the cold war before gps? i seem to remember something about the SR-71 being able to beep boop by sun/moon/stars/time
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Nov 21, 2023 17:48
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Cactus Ghost posted:wasn't celestial navigation automated to some extent during the cold war before gps? i seem to remember something about the SR-71 being able to beep boop by sun/moon/stars/time yeah, they had an r2d2 on board that tracked several important stars.
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Nov 21, 2023 17:50
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meltie posted:yeah, they had an r2d2 on board that tracked several important stars. We couldn't do that now because we'd never agree on who's a star, and both Bowie and Prince are dead
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Nov 21, 2023 17:55
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Maksimus54 posted:Stupid question but don't most airliners(in the US anyway) fly victor airways? Couldn't they just use VOR's to confirm GPS data? There are plenty of VORs still active in the US however more and more are decommissioned every year. Airliners are mostly on GPS navigation.
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Nov 21, 2023 17:55
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loving with GPS would be step 1 in fighting a defensive war against the US, so it isn't surprising that it's an area of active research, but doing it in a way that draws so much heat suggests its someone loving with it who doesn't have the resources to do their own testing on their own equipment. or it's just someone who got ahold of the tech and the disruption is the goal
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Nov 21, 2023 17:55
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:We couldn't do that now because we'd never agree on who's a star, and both Bowie and Prince are dead Here's a raspberry pi now form your own DIY star tracker https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9179736
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Nov 21, 2023 17:58
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Cactus Ghost posted:loving with GPS would be step 1 in fighting a defensive war against the US, so it isn't surprising that it's an area of active research, but doing it in a way that draws so much heat suggests its someone loving with it who doesn't have the resources to do their own testing on their own equipment. or it's just someone who got ahold of the tech and the disruption is the goal Jamming GPS is easy, spoofing it less so, but *loving with INS* is something that shouldn't be possible short of bullets.
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Nov 21, 2023 18:05
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meltie posted:Here's a raspberry pi now form your own DIY star tracker https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9179736 How do I make it track TMZ
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Nov 21, 2023 18:05
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Phanatic posted:Jamming GPS is easy, spoofing it less so, but *loving with INS* is something that shouldn't be possible short of bullets. If a commercial system can’t detect spoofing and uses GPS to compensate for / correct INS drift, it’s already up poo poo creek
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Nov 21, 2023 18:12
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Phanatic posted:Jamming GPS is easy, spoofing it less so, but *loving with INS* is something that shouldn't be possible short of bullets. is it referencing the gps data for drift correction
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Nov 21, 2023 18:13
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Maksimus54 posted:Stupid question but don't most airliners(in the US anyway) fly victor airways? Couldn't they just use VOR's to confirm GPS data? In the USA probably yes, though as noted more and more VORs are going out of service every year. In other countries, not really. Victor airways are entirely a US (and a bit of Canada) thing. A lot of countries only really implemented NDBs (much cheaper), and even then they tend to have nowhere near as many as in the USA. Also, if you think GPS is easy to spoof... Phanatic posted:Jamming GPS is easy, spoofing it less so, but *loving with INS* is something that shouldn't be possible short of bullets. yeah i'm very skeptical of that part of the article.
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Nov 21, 2023 18:13
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SeaborneClink posted:K-Max helicopters are terrifying, given that helicopters on their own are a testament to man's hubris over God and physics, a synchromesh dual rotor is infinity times that. They're on my list of helicopters I really want to fly. There's a couple of companies here still using them, but I'm still some way off having enough experience to even think about it.
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Nov 21, 2023 18:15
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Wow they really build the cockpit as a flying crane. Super cool https://verticalmag.com/features/goingsolo/
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Nov 21, 2023 18:20
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evil_bunnY posted:Unless you stop assuming that NYT/Vice reporting is accurate, and commercial positioning system are not-gently caress-withable. Yeah as a guy that does INS for a living, that part of of the article reads as extremely overblown by someone who didn't know what they were talking about. I'd put money on it being the classic problem of using incorrect (in this case by spoofing) GNSS data to correct the inertial filter, and thus getting erroneous positions out the far end.
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Nov 21, 2023 18:30
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Seems like the solution would be for the FMS to assume that if the GNSS and IRU suddenly disagree by more than a little bit, it's the GNSS that's wrong instead of the other way around currently. Maybe verify with DME-DME, assuming you're flying over a country that isn't eagerly dismantling all their VORs.
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Nov 21, 2023 19:10
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Theris posted:Seems like the solution would be for the FMS to assume that if the GNSS and IRU suddenly disagree by more than a little bit, it's the GNSS that's wrong instead of the other way around currently. Maybe verify with DME-DME, assuming you're flying over a country that isn't eagerly dismantling all their VORs. i'd be surprised if some sort of filter like that isn't already in place to throw out junk, and whatever the spoofing was was subtle enough to get under it
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Nov 21, 2023 20:03
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meltie posted:yeah, they had an r2d2 on board that tracked several important stars. They had to stop doing this because too many FAA investigators were haunted by the black box recorded "wheeeeaaaaaooooooww" screams of the astromech as the plane went down.
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Nov 21, 2023 20:33
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https://ops.group/blog/gps-spoofing-update-08nov2023/ Here is the actual article, by an extremely credible source, referenced by the Vice article. Yes IRS'es in isolation are unfuckwithable, however what is hosed with is the overall system that IRS position is just one input to, among others. IRS position is combined with GPS position and ground-based navaid position (DME/DME, VOR) and each weighed according to what is most trusted. And, what's most heavily trusted and weighed, is GPS, which for the past few decades has been worshipped as the paragon of accuracy... and, rightfully so, until the jamming/spoofing issue arose. In the CRJ there's a screen where you can see the difference between FMS position (where the airplane thinks it is, at the end of the whole weighed averaging and error checking process) vs all the individual sensors. And GPS was always at 0.0 or 0.1 miles, while everything else (including IRS) was 1 or 2, or sometimes even a few miles, off. I imagine most other planes are broadly the same; consequently if GPS is spoofed, one of 2 things is gonna happen: 1) If the difference doesn't trigger an error, the airplane is gonna trust that source over the other (actually correct) ones, and navigate off course. 2) If it does trigger an error, then RNAV/FMS navigation is lost. Both types of events are among the reports. I suppose lost navigation is better than wrong navigation, but to address both types of cases, the error checking algorithms are going to have to be updated. And it's no trivial issue. As weight is taken from GPS and added to the other less-accurate sensors, ANP (actual navigation performance) will worsen. Probably not an issue for enroute, but definitely an issue for the new generation of whizbang RNAV/RNP approaches that do curved legs around mountains, take you down to the same minimums as ILS, etc.; and that rely on extremely accurate RNAV/FMS navigation. Also there's gonna be an arms race of updating these error checking thresholds that are to be placed just so so they can discriminate spoofed signals while not flagging too easily when not spoofed; and spoofers updating their techniques to get just inside these new thresholds, and conduct spoofing that does not get flagged. Kind of like how CAPTCHAS were created to pass humans while blocking bots, but then bots became equal, and eventually better than, humans at reading the CAPTCHAs. For the time being, the only thing that can be done is to remove GPS as an active source before entering the jamming/spoofing areas. vessbot fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Nov 21, 2023 |
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Nov 21, 2023 20:33
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All those commercial nav systems are probably not designed for any kind of adversarial environments so it's no surprise they're failing in interesting and extremely dangerous ways TBH. It's funny that the average sport watch probably might have a more reliable receiver/interpreter than most airliners (multiband, baby!)
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Nov 21, 2023 20:55
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https://twitter.com/thedreadships/status/1726930897650504060?s=46 https://www.kiro7.com/news/trending/us-navy-plane-overshoots-runway-hawaii-tumbles-into-bay/4VSTH5RNIZAZ3GGGAQZRP3CL5Y/ I assume Southwest is working on job offers.
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Nov 21, 2023 21:06
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evil_bunnY posted:It's funny that the average sport watch probably might have a more reliable receiver/interpreter than most airliners (multiband, baby!) Gonna tell the captain this when boarding and offer that they borrow my superior hardware. One day, the avionics programmers will automate the process. You’ll get a prompt that “Boeing 787 wants to know your location.”
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Nov 21, 2023 22:18
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hobbesmaster posted:https://twitter.com/thedreadships/status/1726930897650504060?s=46 "One ping..."
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Nov 22, 2023 00:08
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it sounds like all nine crew swam to shore, which makes sense. i can't imagine navy crew would hear the end of it if they didnt make a swim of a couple dozen yards in warm water
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Nov 22, 2023 01:33
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Cactus Ghost posted:i'd be surprised if some sort of filter like that isn't already in place to throw out junk, and whatever the spoofing was was subtle enough to get under it I’m aware that there exists GPS receivers that monitor the signals of multiple satellites for changes in behavior and if they are making sense based on the other signals and its own reference IMU. https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5507232 Make sure that when you read the abstract you substitute in more interesting use cases for the provided completely benign examples provided. Yes, I’m sure when flying deep in a canyon you have a weak SNR, but, you know, also as you enter contested airspace. Is this method used on civilian aircraft. Probably not. Will it be? Maybe? But it’s probably better to just avoid those areas once they are recognized. Anyway, this news is a pretty good example of why every DoD procurement slide deck for the last 30 years has had the phrase, “GPS denied” somewhere in it. Murgos fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Nov 22, 2023 |
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Nov 22, 2023 03:12
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Cactus Ghost posted:it sounds like all nine crew swam to shore, which makes sense. i can't imagine navy crew would hear the end of it if they didnt make a swim of a couple dozen yards in warm water I mean, there it might be wading to shore.
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Nov 22, 2023 03:33
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The loving ridiculous part is that the Mentor satellites already know exactly the origin and method of every single one of these spoofers and yet that information is still concealed because it would reveal national technical means. I’m pretty sure that if you’re spoofing civil air nav systems it doesn’t matter what country you’re in, you need to eat a tactom.
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Nov 22, 2023 03:40
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Phanatic posted:The loving ridiculous part is that the Mentor satellites already know exactly the origin and method of every single one of these spoofers and yet that information is still concealed because it would reveal national technical means. I’m pretty sure that if you’re spoofing civil air nav systems it doesn’t matter what country you’re in, you need to eat a tactom. Well, if you put all that together then there is one likely culprit 
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Nov 22, 2023 03:57
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Murgos posted:I’m aware that there exists GPS receivers that monitor the signals of multiple satellites for changes in behavior and if they are making sense based on the other signals and its own reference IMU. I've got it. Put GPS antennas on the nose, top of the tail a couple on the bottom of the aircraft and a few on a drooped trailing wire. Now do interferometry (read: magic) to determine where in elevation GPS signals are originating from. When the answer is "not spave" just shut off the GPS breaker. Bim boom simple, please give me my money.
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Nov 22, 2023 04:19
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just turn off gps give ME the money, not this clown. MVP baby
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Nov 22, 2023 04:22
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Phanatic posted:In late September, multiple commercial flights near Iran went astray after navigation systems went blind. The planes first received spoofed GPS signals, meaning signals designed to fool planes’ systems into thinking they are flying miles away from their real location. One of the aircraft almost flew into Iranian airspace without permission. Since then, air crews discussing the problem online have said it’s only gotten worse, and experts are racing to establish who is behind it. Looks like Tomorrow Never Dies was right all along.
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Nov 22, 2023 04:28
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Phanatic posted:eat a tactom. Tactical tomato?
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Nov 22, 2023 05:08
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If there's nothing else, I have some nautical LORAN charts (Chesapeake Bay-Cape Henlopen to Sandy Hook) I might sell for the right price
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Nov 22, 2023 05:27
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CarForumPoster posted:I've got it. Put GPS antennas on the nose, top of the tail a couple on the bottom of the aircraft and a few on a drooped trailing wire. Now do interferometry (read: magic) to determine where in elevation GPS signals are originating from. When the answer is "not spave" just shut off the GPS breaker. Bim boom simple, please give me my money. Boeing already uses GPS receivers in the tail and nose (maybe also the wing tips) to derive some parameters. My suggestion is “Hey these GPS signals are supposed to be weak af. If they’re actually coming in loud and clear, you’re being hosed with.” Platystemon fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Nov 22, 2023 |
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Nov 22, 2023 05:34
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