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Main Paineframe posted:Probably the best example to talk about here was the 2000 Camp David Summit negotiations. It's probably the most serious attempt at negotiating a final solution with the Palestinians We are seeing what the Israeli's idea of a final solution is in Gaza right now
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# ? Nov 20, 2023 20:18 |
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# ? May 11, 2024 09:25 |
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Kalit posted:Isn't the same true for Gaza? And is being almost entirely reliant on another country mean that said country has a puppet government? TBH, I've never heard that definition before. Israeli police are allowed to operate within the West Bank and arrest/detain Palestinians there without even filing charges. The PA maintains security forces but they are, in practice, working beneath Israel jurisdiction.
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# ? Nov 20, 2023 20:19 |
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Darth Walrus posted:One purely mechanical element of Israel's control of the PA is that it collects taxes on their behalf and has the final say on how those taxes are distributed.. Palestinians very literally have taxation without representation. punishedkissinger posted:Israeli police are allowed to operate within the West Bank and arrest/detain Palestinians there without even filing charges. I forgot about these things, thank you for the reminder/explanation.
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# ? Nov 20, 2023 20:24 |
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Yeah the core difference is Israel is generally given a relatively free hand to operate how it will in the West Bank, but it isn't in Gaza. A blockaded nation isn't necessarily a puppet government. Additionally the only and only election Abbas was subject to in 2005 had heavy interference by Israel on Abbas's behalf. Similar efforts to prevent the electoral rise of Hamas in Gaza however failed. E: An example, Mustafa Barghouti - Abbas's best performing opponent - was arrested while campaigning in East Jerusalem back in 05. The UN report describes it as an important milestone in the preliminary conclusion, but goes on to list ways in which Fatah and Israel both hosed with the elections - and there hasn't been one since so so much for "an important milestone" You could argue the PA doesn't directly take marching orders from Israel all the time - it has occasionally halted security coordination - and so it isn't a puppet government technically, but most the time it certainly seems to operate like one. TGLT fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Nov 20, 2023 |
# ? Nov 20, 2023 20:30 |
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Kalit posted:Since this has come up a couple of times, can someone please explain to me how PA is a puppet state government? Preferably with their definition of puppet state government? TGLT, I read that article (thanks for posting it), but it still doesn't seem clear to me. "Puppet" is perhaps a bit strong, but the PA is absolutely a collaborationist government. It's not terribly different from how other Western client states work. Negotiations with larger powers establish a client government, but this government lacks legitimacy and popular support and tends to be inept and corrupt, so this client government increasingly relies on its foreign patrons to suppress major organized opposition to its rule, and in return the client government provides support for the foreign patron's interests. In the West Bank, this takes the form of "security cooperation" between Israel and Palestine. Though it originates from the Oslo process, it ramped up considerably after Arafat's death as Abbas sought to use Israeli support to shore up his own position. The Palestinian Authority keeps Israel informed of troublesome Palestinian dissent, uses its own security forces to engage in active political repression of public opposition to Israeli policies, and facilitates Israeli raids to capture or kill particularly troublesome opposition figures. In return, it gets considerable economic, political, and military support from Israel and the international community. This cooperation is quite close, to the point where Palestinians have reported being released from PA prisons only to be swiftly arrested by Israel, to find that their Israeli interrogators are well aware of everything they told Palestinian interrogators. Here's a NYT Opinion piece on it, from some pro-Palestinian voices: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/27/opinion/subcontracting-repression-in-the-west-bank-and-gaza.html?_r=2 quote:Subcontracting Repression in the West Bank and Gaza Basically, in response to Israeli and international demands, the PA actively suppresses and represses anti-Israel sentiments, and also cooperates with Israeli security forces to aid, support, and inform pretty much whatever the IDF wants to do in the West Bank. In return, Israel and international donors give substantial support to the PA's rule, giving it large amounts of money, helping to train and equip its security forces, and helping to boost it politically where possible. That active cooperation with Israel, in return for foreign help in propping up their own illegitimate and increasingly unpopular rule, is why some term them a "puppet". Here's another take, from what was originally a Middle East Eye article written by a British I/P reporter: https://www.jonathan-cook.net/2014-07-10/abbas-in-firing-line-over-security-cooperation-with-israel/ quote:Abbas in firing line over security cooperation with Israel
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# ? Nov 20, 2023 20:40 |
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Saw a guy complaining that WaPo more accurately calls it the Israel-Gaza War and then see this person (whose husband I guess is an advisor to Ben-Gvir) post this video showing the IDF isn't even trying to pretend it's a war against Hamas: https://x.com/MalkahFleisher/status/1726206430707871981?s=20
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# ? Nov 20, 2023 21:29 |
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Main Paineframe posted:It's rare for them to come out and openly say it like this, but that's long been the subtext of all their accusations about Hamas operating in hospitals and UN facilities and stuff. At first glance, those accusations seem to demonize Hamas for using civilian facilities, but these narratives also often subtly imply that the civilians are allowing or cooperating with this use and therefore complicit in Hamas' crimes. The gaza=hamas=isis poo poo is coming directly from official Israeli sources (most notably Israel's MFA) and they've been blasting that stuff out non-stop since 10/7. I'd agree that that type of 'we should just kill them all' used to be something that they were smart enough to keep behind closed doors, but 10/7 was the end of that. Off hand I can't remember ever seeing as many openly genocidal statements coming directly from acting government officials probably ever. Usually that level of rhetoric is kept a degree or two removed and it's insane to see it coming straight out of government accounts and PR people. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 10:42 on Nov 21, 2023 |
# ? Nov 21, 2023 10:37 |
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Herstory Begins Now posted:The gaza=hamas=isis poo poo is coming directly from official Israeli sources (most notably Israel's MFA) and they've been blasting that stuff out non-stop since 10/7. I'd agree that that type of 'we should just kill them all' used to be something that they were smart enough to keep behind closed doors, but 10/7 was the end of that. Yeah, according to Israeli historian/scholar Raz Segal "annihilatory language" is currently rife and just nakedly open in Israeli society. Newspapers, social media, TV, journalists, are spewing genocidal language calling for the flattening of Gaza and indiscriminate killing of its population. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUeEnjULHe0&t=1471s
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# ? Nov 21, 2023 11:18 |
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Groovelord Neato posted:Saw a guy complaining that WaPo more accurately calls it the Israel-Gaza War and then see this person (whose husband I guess is an advisor to Ben-Gvir) post this video showing the IDF isn't even trying to pretend it's a war against Hamas: This was deleted but it originally said "Gaza gets an upgrade" and replaced it with this: https://x.com/MalkahFleisher/status/1726910374685843894?s=20
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# ? Nov 21, 2023 14:18 |
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https://x.com/asafronel/status/1726963426457739488?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q wut
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# ? Nov 21, 2023 15:10 |
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always nice to contrast the stammering dismissal of the ~possibility~ of Israel committing warcrimes by US officials with the openly genocidal rhetoric of its ruling class
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# ? Nov 21, 2023 15:17 |
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Darth Walrus posted:https://x.com/asafronel/status/1726963426457739488?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q If I were being charitable I would read this as a metaphorical biblical reference and not that they should literally collect foreskins of their enemies.
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# ? Nov 21, 2023 15:22 |
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Herstory Begins Now posted:The gaza=hamas=isis poo poo is coming directly from official Israeli sources (most notably Israel's MFA) and they've been blasting that stuff out non-stop since 10/7. I'd agree that that type of 'we should just kill them all' used to be something that they were smart enough to keep behind closed doors, but 10/7 was the end of that. The government is far more right-wing than usual. Someone like Ben-Gvir being a major government official would have been unthinkable a decade ago. Kahanists used to be persona non grata in Israeli politics, and it's only in the last few years that Netanyahu has welcomed them into the fold as an attempt to counter the rising political pushback against him personally. Now Otzma Yehudit holds three minister seats, despite having only six Knesset seats total. It's a pretty unprecedented state of affairs.
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# ? Nov 21, 2023 15:31 |
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Fidelitious posted:If I were being charitable I would read this as a metaphorical biblical reference and not that they should literally collect foreskins of their enemies. Yes, it reference 1 Samuel 18, where David brings foreskins of 200 Philistines to Saul in order to become his son-in-law. quote:David took his men with him and went out and killed two hundred Philistines and brought back their foreskins. They counted out the full number to the king so that David might become the king’s son-in-law. Then Saul gave him his daughter Michal in marriage.
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# ? Nov 21, 2023 15:33 |
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So it’s like scalps? But you can live without a foreskin. And you can maybe live without a scalp. Well in the desert maybe harder.
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# ? Nov 21, 2023 15:59 |
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Apparently, Israel, Hamas, and the US are all saying that they are "close" to having a deal worked out for a temporary truce and return of some of the hostages. There's not a ton of details about it yet, but initial indications are that it'll be about 50 Israeli women and children traded for about 50 Palestinian women and children in Israeli jails. Ben-Gvir is furious, and openly opposing the deal, saying that it's a "very big mistake" which will "lead us to disaster", deriding it as "idiocy" and "delusional". He's also still mad about not being part of Netanyahu's war cabinet. Of course, that's exactly why Netanyahu created the war cabinet - to keep fascist maniacs like him at arm's length from the actual day-to-day events of this war. Not for moral reasons, of course, but rather because they have zero political sense and absolutely no concept of restraint. As an example, let's take a look at how Otzma Yehudit MKs are handling the hostages' families: quote:Chaos in Knesset committee as far-right MKs yell at relatives of Hamas hostages Accusing the families of Israeli hostages of "representing Hamas" is not what I would call a savvy political move.
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# ? Nov 21, 2023 16:02 |
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Darth Walrus posted:https://x.com/asafronel/status/1726963426457739488?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Isn't circumcision basically universal among Muslims?
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# ? Nov 21, 2023 16:07 |
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TGLT posted:A major reason Hamas exists in the state it does is because they did in fact eject Israel from Gaza. This is a claim that's been made repeatedly in this thread, but I don't see it well supported when I try to look into it. This page doesn't make that argument at all, for example. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza Do you have additional sources?
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# ? Nov 21, 2023 16:10 |
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DeadlyMuffin posted:This is a claim that's been made repeatedly in this thread, but I don't see it well supported when I try to look into it. This page doesn't make that argument at all, for example. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada
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# ? Nov 21, 2023 16:26 |
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e: ^^^ Yeah, to more directly address that, the disengagement was a consequence of the Second IntifadaDeadlyMuffin posted:This is a claim that's been made repeatedly in this thread, but I don't see it well supported when I try to look into it. This page doesn't make that argument at all, for example. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza It does, actually - "Sharon said that his plan was designed to improve Israel's security and international status in the absence of political negotiations to end the Israeli–Palestinian conflict." You can additionally read this article from Britannica, the ADL's article, and even this Reuters article that all bring up the same issue - Israel could not adequately provide security to the Israeli settlements in Gaza. Violent resistance had made those settlements untenable. TGLT fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Nov 21, 2023 |
# ? Nov 21, 2023 16:31 |
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Isn't circumcision basically universal among Muslims? I would say that Karhi either doesn’t know this or doesn’t care.
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# ? Nov 21, 2023 16:53 |
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Edit: nevermind. Did a bit more reading.
DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Nov 21, 2023 |
# ? Nov 21, 2023 16:57 |
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Main Paineframe posted:
I'm reminded of the time Bill O'Reilly had the son of someone who died in the World trade Center attacks on his show and spend all the time berating him for not being bloodthirsty enough. It was bizarrely cartoonish. Of course, because things only get dumber, now actual government figures do it in public.
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# ? Nov 21, 2023 20:41 |
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I didn't see this posted here. Gila Gamliel, Israel's current Minister of Intelligence, wrote a piece offering ethnic cleansing as a solution. Published by The Jerusalem Post on Sunday.quote:ANOTHER OPTION is to promote the voluntary resettlement of Palestinians in Gaza, for humanitarian reasons, outside of the Strip. This was also published on Sunday in Yediot Ahronot. Written by the former head of the Israeli National Security Council. English translation. https://x.com/QudsNen/status/1726239911013982326?s=20 quote:Israel must therefore not provide the other side with any capability that prolongs its life. Moreover, we say that Sinwar is so evil that he does not care if all the residents of Gaza die. Such a presentation is not accurate, since who are the "poor" women of Gaza? They are all the mothers, sisters or wives of Hamas murderers. On the one hand, they are part of the infrastructure that supports the organization, and on the other hand, if they experience a humanitarian disaster, then it can be assumed that some of the Hamas fighters and the more junior commanders will begin to understand that the war is futile and that it is better to prevent irreversible harm to their families. quote:When senior Israeli figures say in the media "It's either us or them" we should clarify the question of who is "them". "They" are not only Hamas fighters with weapons, but also all the "civilian" officials, including hospital administrators and school administrators, and also the entire Gaza population who enthusiastically supported Hamas and cheered on its atrocities on October 7th. Goosed it. fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Nov 21, 2023 |
# ? Nov 21, 2023 21:10 |
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Remember that HonestReporting scam? It now has a bodycount. https://x.com/alexcrawfordsky/status/1726818532791386512?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
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# ? Nov 21, 2023 21:22 |
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Darth Walrus posted:https://x.com/asafronel/status/1726963426457739488?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q is gathering the cummies from fallen IDF soldiers not enough for this man? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Nov 21, 2023 21:37 |
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Glad to see that the State Department only hires the very best people. https://twitter.com/MattBinder/status/1727044543714050396 https://twitter.com/itslaylas/status/1727059850725872010?s=20
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# ? Nov 21, 2023 22:13 |
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Speleothing posted:Glad to see that the State Department only hires the very best people. Good lord. The restraint on that guy.
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# ? Nov 21, 2023 23:56 |
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That guy is a dead-ringer for the actor John Noble
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# ? Nov 22, 2023 00:14 |
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The Hamas HQ under Shifa hospital appears to be a series of doors https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1727032434234130816
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# ? Nov 22, 2023 00:20 |
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Piell posted:The Hamas HQ under Shifa hospital appears to be a series of doors theyre gonna string this out for a while huh. just a matroyshka doll of Capone's safe
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# ? Nov 22, 2023 00:22 |
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FlamingLiberal posted:That guy is a dead-ringer for the actor John Noble
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# ? Nov 22, 2023 00:26 |
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Speleothing posted:Glad to see that the State Department only hires the very best people. https://twitter.com/elivalley/status/1727095854300065891?t=U5z0iXZmVKDxBcLD09pwRw&s=19 So according to this, this guy was pretty high up in the state department right around the camp David meetings right through the second intifada. Seems to definitely line up with the reports about the US being biased towards Israel during that crucial time period.
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# ? Nov 22, 2023 01:18 |
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I am curious about the circumstances of his departure from government.
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# ? Nov 22, 2023 01:53 |
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Speleothing posted:Glad to see that the State Department only hires the very best people. What I'm left wondering right now is how to figure out which portion of this blend is "state department folks proving to us what the higher ups culture really was for decades" and which portion of it is "example of how quickly and profoundly Fox News Boomerbrain can turn even prestigious and influential people into drooling psycho ramblers"
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# ? Nov 22, 2023 02:06 |
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Speleothing posted:Glad to see that the State Department only hires the very best people. Saldowitz was not the director of the NSC under Obama. James Jones, Thomas Donilon, and Susan Rice were. Sounds like this Matt Binder is completely lying, making him a non-credible source in my opinion. E VVVV: Thank you for clarifying. Kalit fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Nov 22, 2023 |
# ? Nov 22, 2023 02:08 |
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Kalit posted:Hmmm… this Matt Binder person, host of ScamEconomy.com and DOOMEDcast.com sure seems like a credible person. Claiming that Saldowitz was the director of the NSC under Obama. Must have snuck in between James Jones, Thomas Donilon, and/or Susan Rice…. Matt Binder may be a lot of things but a right wing guy he very much is not. Unless this is sarcasm and I’m genuinely misreading you.
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# ? Nov 22, 2023 02:17 |
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A slight mix-up, perhaps. Per his (since deleted) bio he was acting director of the Nat. Sec. Council South Asia Directorate.
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# ? Nov 22, 2023 02:25 |
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Corambis posted:A slight mix-up, perhaps. Per his (since deleted) bio he was acting director of the Nat. Sec. Council South Asia Directorate. quote:In the early 2000s, he worked as Acting Director for the National Security Council South Asia Directorate under the order of the Executive Office of the President. Kalit fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Nov 22, 2023 |
# ? Nov 22, 2023 02:29 |
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# ? May 11, 2024 09:25 |
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Kalit posted:Hmmm… this Matt Binder person, host of ScamEconomy.com and DOOMEDcast.com sure seems like a credible person. Claiming that Saldowitz was the director of the NSC under Obama. Must have snuck in between James Jones, Thomas Donilon, and/or Susan Rice…. Binder, who is a longstanding left-wing tech reporter notable for antagonizing Elon Musk enough that Musk gave him a free bluecheck to try to own him, is 100% accurately reporting what Mr. Seldowitz' employer claimed his previous title was, in their announcement, less than a year ago, that he was their Foreign Affairs Chair. For what its worth, it appears that they/Seldowitz were the ones who decided to stretch the truth, by calling him a former NSC Director when in fact he was the Acting Director of the NSC South Asian Directorate. https://twitter.com/MattBinder/status/1727045580038517143 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Nov 22, 2023 02:30 |