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dead gay comedy forums posted:Joyce is an absolutely great representation of why individual morality matters none in that level of class. A good number of people in the upper classes are quite good company, pleasant to be around with and genuinely so. An individual like her in the very upper having those qualities and her degree of conviction (e.g. Joyce being absolutely sincere about that they should have burned the city down to the last instead of surrendering) is the rarity. My impression about Evrart / the Claires is that they're just corrupt pieces of poo poo and nothing they do is about the Union or about anything else. Basically just a mob leader with the aesthetics of a Union. Talking about that the worker's position has improved a lot since the Claires happened, I never really got that - there's talk that some negotiations went well and they got concessions, but what does that mean? It looks like Martinaise is still a shithole and the workers are all miserable and drunk all the time, except for a few enforcers that are granted rights to essentially be the brutal pig-cops of the area. But again, I might have not gotten the crucial dialogue to change my mind.
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Nov 21, 2023 19:40
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JOHN SKELETON posted:Conversations like this are always pretty interesting when talking about Disco Elysium, because I truly don't know if I got the entire picture, even after a pretty thorough playthrough and watching a lot of Youtube videos. this at least is entirely incorrect and exactly what the claires want you to think, at least until their gambit with joyce succeeds. they’re ruthless and unscrupulous but also genuine firebrand socialists, and they play up the nyee-hee-hee corrupt goblin act in front of the detectives to encourage complicity with joyce
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Nov 21, 2023 19:46
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Oxxidation posted:this at least is entirely incorrect and exactly what the claires want you to think, at least until their gambit with joyce succeeds. they’re ruthless and unscrupulous but also genuine firebrand socialists, and they play up the nyee-hee-hee corrupt goblin act in front of the detectives to encourage complicity with joyce
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Nov 21, 2023 20:01
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The interesting thing about unions is the difference in how they are percieved, particularly among people who grew up during generations when they were active, but also across different countries. In the UK, they are kind of viewed as a nuisance by a lot of the general public who remember the 70s (unless they were involved in one). Kind of a 'why do they have to make such a fuss' vibe. In the US however I can imagine someone growing up in NY in the 70s and 80s probably has an entirely different threat level going off in their head when they hear 'dock workers union.' Even now whenever there is mention of the docks on American crime procedurals there's usually a heavy implication of organized crime links etc. Makes me wonder how much of it was influenced by the Americans who were drafted in, the English who hosted the studio and the Estonians who were largely in charge of writing. How do Estonians generally view unions and how does that affect the writing?
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Nov 21, 2023 20:14
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With Evrart in control of the docks, Martinaise is going to be THE drug trade hub of Revanchol, if not of the entire Elysium. This is also, most likely, what is going to have him killed in the end. Rogue AI Goddess fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Nov 21, 2023 |
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Nov 21, 2023 20:21
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Rogue AI Goddess posted:With Evrart in control of the docks, Martinaise is going to be THE drug trade hub of Revanchol, if not of the entire Elysium.
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Nov 21, 2023 20:28
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JOHN SKELETON posted:But again, I might have not gotten the crucial dialogue to change my mind. The big one I remember is if you grill him about the Youth Center, he'll go on a tirade about how kids in Martinaise are growing up in poverty and living in poo poo and he refuses to stand for it, which a challenging (I think) Empathy check will follow up with "There's a fire in his eyes as he says this. His anger is *real.*" There's also a bunch of other checks, but that was the one I think most directly speaks to his non-corruption motivations. JOHN SKELETON posted:Honest question tho, what are the good things they have done? I can remember one: giving a guard job to Rene so he feels useful in his old days. Everything else seems just bog standard mob boss stuff. They sponsored Elizabeth's law degree, the Hardie boys, and probably Easy Leo as well. Plus they're paying all the striking dockworkers a fair wage. I mean most of that is funded by crime money, and arguably serves to entrench themselves as the rulers of Martinaise, but they're still public good within Martinaise.
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Nov 21, 2023 20:40
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JOHN SKELETON posted:Honest question tho, what are the good things they have done? I can remember one: giving a guard job to Rene so he feels useful in his old days. Everything else seems just bog standard mob boss stuff. Mr. Evrart is helping me find my gun. The Claires have also run the union for 20ish years. By all accounts, the union is the closest thing to a real, caring government that Martinaise actually has. The Hardie boys are initially framed as dockworker thugs, but they're more-or-less revealed as sincerely caring about and important to the community (important flag for how we read the Hardie boys imo is that they are notably way less weird about homosexuality and race than everyone else in the game, positioning them closest to the imagined viewer), and they're fronting as thugs because they're actually trying to protect two different vulnerable women who they believe, with good reason, will wind up imprisoned or dead if they are found by the real city cops. They, and everyone else in the union, speak pretty highly of the Claire brothers, who have fought for better wages and protections for the union, established the Hardie boys as a sort of community watch, and paid for Lizzie to go to law school. Their methods are deeply cynical and sometimes expose locals to privation or violence, but there's no indication their extended tenure as union bosses reflects anything other than their union's approval of the positive outcomes they win. Lizzie, who seems like a very serious and principled true believer politically, is fiercely loyal to them and the union. Valentin fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Nov 21, 2023 |
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Nov 21, 2023 20:41
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I’m curious: does ultraliberalism ever get treated as anything but a complete joke in dialogue?
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Nov 21, 2023 20:49
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I'll concede that putting Elizabeth into law school is definitely good and that the Hardie boys are not as bad as they initially seem, but the youth center in place of the fish market still seems very odd to me. This is the first time Evrart is trying to do build some public centers in Martinaise, and it just happens to involve driving some already poor people out of their homes? Why are there not work crews fixing up the ruins you see everywhere? Why do a lot of people like Sylvie seem afraid of speaking against the Union, as if it was a mob? Surely, if they are on the side of the people, they should understand people don't want a loving body in their backyard. It just doesn't read as very effective governance of Martinaise to me, and at worst, it's saying "tough guys have to make the tough choices and you just don't understand how it's for your own good." edit: Are they paying the dockworkers a fair wage while they're on strike? I could have missed it. I thought they had to squeeze local businesses just to have money for the bare minimum of operations, while most of the actual workers get drunk all day. TURTLE SLUT fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Nov 21, 2023 |
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Nov 21, 2023 20:50
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Staltran posted:Really? I thought it was the other way around (and therefore the Evrart we meet is actually Edgar). Googling around it seems like I either misremembered, or read it somewhere that got it wrong and never checked. to my knowledge the only explicit mention in the game that one brother has a lazy eye and the other doesn't is Joyce, who says: JOYCE MESSIER - "Edgar looks *exactly* like his brother, except for that lazy eye. He also *talks* exactly like Evrart does. And when one's term as foreman is up, the other takes over." which is ambiguous about which one has the lazy eye. perhaps it's explicit in other languages? I wouldn't know. I figure that evrart is the one with the lazy eye and the one we talk to, because the swapping-brothers scheme means one pretending to be the other isn't necessary, but no skin off my back if someone wants to disagree anyway, manana is right, evrart is a hero
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Nov 21, 2023 21:22
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Regalingualius posted:I’m curious: does ultraliberalism ever get treated as anything but a complete joke in dialogue? Not putting it in spoilers but there is a conversation where harry cops to only identifying as an ultraliberal because he wants to have enough money to be good enough for Dora. Which is another horrible moment like anything to do with her but it definitely isn’t played as a joke
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Nov 21, 2023 21:52
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It’s either a dialogue choice in the island dream sequence or something near the end of the ultraliberal vision quest
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Nov 21, 2023 21:53
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why do people care more about "people being driven out of their homes" than the fact that they are living in abject poverty (i think this is the question the game wants you to ask yourself)
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Nov 21, 2023 21:54
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Feels Villeneuve posted:why do people care more about "people being driven out of their homes" than the fact that they are living in abject poverty (i think this is the question the game wants you to ask yourself) the community youth centre that will render them all homeless, including the three little kids that could benefit from it, is not going to magically fix their abject poverty. the way he goes about it is also incredibly scummy i’m unionised irl, and trade unions are good, but gently caress Evrart Claire
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Nov 21, 2023 22:19
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In a lot of underfunded areas community centres running things for kids to do is the only thing stopping them getting bored and getting themselves into trouble. It's possible Evrart is 'genuinely angry' at the idea of kids in the area he sees himself as having domain over growing up bored and hopeless.
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Nov 21, 2023 22:27
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I think there's some check, where a thought is doubtful that Claire even intends to have the centre built at all
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Nov 21, 2023 22:29
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The ruins around the harbor are all occupied, so if there is constuction there they would also have to evict people there. What is actually more consistent with Evrart's character is that he refuses to evict Union member from their ruins, but is ok with evicting the members of the village which are unconnected to him.
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Nov 21, 2023 22:33
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Bismack Billabongo posted:Not putting it in spoilers but there is a conversation where harry cops to only identifying as an ultraliberal because he wants to have enough money to be good enough for Dora. Which is another horrible moment like anything to do with her but it definitely isn’t played as a joke The key thing is ALL of Harry’s potential political beliefs are related to getting her back or explaining the breakup. Win her back with money. Slow incremental improvement. You can’t trust the bourgeoisie or the Men of Wö. It’s partially why I think Harry can’t be an anarchist, even though he encounters an equal number of them as Marx… er… Mazovists.
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Nov 21, 2023 22:33
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I think Evrart is literally the only character in the game who has a way he wants to change the world for the better and a plan for accomplishing it. He's not the most likable character, but all the more likable characters are basically only involved in their own lives.
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Nov 21, 2023 23:00
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Bobby Deluxe posted:In a lot of underfunded areas community centres running things for kids to do is the only thing stopping them getting bored and getting themselves into trouble. It's possible Evrart is 'genuinely angry' at the idea of kids in the area he sees himself as having domain over growing up bored and hopeless.
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Nov 21, 2023 23:05
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Rogue AI Goddess posted:gently caress does Cuno care about Evrart and his community center? Cuno's not a SOCIAL WORKER
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Nov 21, 2023 23:08
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HopperUK posted:Cuno's not a SOCIAL WORKER
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Nov 21, 2023 23:33
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I think where the game’s socialist propaganda is most strongly evident (not saying that as criticism) and most effective: showing you the most sympathetic and thoughtful possible capitalist, and demonstrating the monstrosity of her actions. And showing you a slimy, corrupt, even visually upsetting socialist and showing him being a force for improving the lives of the working class despite it all.
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Nov 22, 2023 00:08
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On the opposite side of ultraliberal spectrum there's Siileng, who is neither rich nor a capitalist, but is otherwise all about the hustle culture.
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Nov 22, 2023 00:33
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Not directed at anyone ITT but could be directed at Harry depending how you play him. Just found this in my imgur, I'm sure it's from the forums. I like the 'say one of these fascist or communist things, or gently caress off' bit, the narrator sounds really annoyed.
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Nov 22, 2023 01:21
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Has anybody done a full-on fascist piece of poo poo run in this game? I've had an itching to play again and I feel like there are large portions of this game I haven't seen (nor do I see anybody talk about) and I'm very curious how they wrote it or if it's just going to depress me
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Nov 22, 2023 03:16
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Heath posted:Has anybody done a full-on fascist piece of poo poo run in this game? I've had an itching to play again and I feel like there are large portions of this game I haven't seen (nor do I see anybody talk about) and I'm very curious how they wrote it or if it's just going to depress me I have and this is the  highlight    
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Nov 22, 2023 03:22
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No... no!!
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Nov 22, 2023 03:28
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JOHN SKELETON posted:Honest question tho, what are the good things they have done? I can remember one: giving a guard job to Rene so he feels useful in his old days. Everything else seems just bog standard mob boss stuff. Joyce mentions that they got the dockworkers a health plan and better overtime pay with earlier strikes, which is something. They take care of Rene and Gaston both. The only locals who don't like them are Rene and Gary, and even Rene seems to have a kind of grudging respect for them. Their policing Martinaise is presented as being a sketchy mob-style takeover to begin with but the actual backstory is just that neither the Coalition nor the RCM gave enough of a poo poo to police Martinaise so the Union stepped in purely because it was the only organization that cared to do it.
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Nov 22, 2023 03:52
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Heath posted:Has anybody done a full-on fascist piece of poo poo run in this game? I've had an itching to play again and I feel like there are large portions of this game I haven't seen (nor do I see anybody talk about) and I'm very curious how they wrote it or if it's just going to depress me this depends on which version you want to do. there's the version where you're just loving dumb as hell and constantly step on rakes and all of your dialogue options alternate between half-baked complaints about foreigners and women and apologizing profusely for your previous dialogue option, which can be pretty funny. then there's the double-down version where you're just an openly hateful, unapologetic rear end in a top hat which is extremely depressing because you constantly alienate, disappoint, or hurt everyone you talk to, especially kim.
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Nov 22, 2023 03:58
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The worst impression we get of the Hardie Boys is Sylvie being absolutely terrified of the suggestion that she should have called the police, but I suspect her apprehension has less to do with the mob rule than it does with the person grilling her on the subject.
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Nov 22, 2023 04:04
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:The worst impression we get of the Hardie Boys is Sylvie being absolutely terrified of the suggestion that she should have called the police, but I suspect her apprehension has less to do with the mob rule than it does with the person grilling her on the subject. that and I don't think Sylvie is a local to Martinaise, which is why you have to call her rather than just going to talk to her in person.
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Nov 22, 2023 04:05
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:The worst impression we get of the Hardie Boys is Sylvie being absolutely terrified of the suggestion that she should have called the police, but I suspect her apprehension has less to do with the mob rule than it does with the person grilling her on the subject.
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Nov 22, 2023 04:07
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:The big one I remember is if you grill him about the Youth Center, he'll go on a tirade about how kids in Martinaise are growing up in poverty and living in poo poo and he refuses to stand for it, which a challenging (I think) Empathy check will follow up with "There's a fire in his eyes as he says this. His anger is *real.*" There's also a bunch of other checks, but that was the one I think most directly speaks to his non-corruption motivations. populist largesse to manage your reputation is generally a feature of organized crime, especially where state institutions are weak or corrupt it's the other drug kingpins doing all the murders and the corrupt police stealing from the everyman. you're just a hard-working local businessperson who wants to contribute back to the community, and any unsavory aspects of your work are far away and easily ignored
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Nov 22, 2023 06:40
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chrome line posted:That's not an inconvenience, it's her job. She's there for work. And also she talks about how she likes Martinaise despite everything and is super nostalgic for a summer fling she had like 30 years ago. She's as safe as she can be on her boat and leaves at the first sign of serious trouble. Just because she's polite to the cops doesn't mean she's inconveniencing herself. This was not the understanding I walked away with at all, which was that she had not just volunteered to handle it but gone out of her way to make sure the Pines board would let her. That she is technically there for "work", yes, but the work she seems to be engaging in seems to be less "serve Wild Pine's interests", and more "minimize damage" because of her fondness for the city itself. Her role is technically "strike negotiator", yes, but that is also clearly not being her actual job or role in the company - she's a board member, not the sort of lower level employee the previous negotiator was, and also despite her doing absolutely no negotiation with Claire while she's there. She is ultimately still completely selfish in her motivations, but I came away with the distinct impression that literally the only reason she was there is specifically because of her sentimentality towards the city, because she thought it was important she specifically "do something".
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Nov 22, 2023 08:59
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I don't believe for one second Joyce is a patriot. Sure, she might pretend that she is, but she'd have sold out any 'mineral rights' to any interest, foreign or domestic. And, re. the Claires, one has to remember that an influencing factor to them being so petty and bastardly towards Harry and Kim is that our two-o-duo are both cops.
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Nov 22, 2023 10:28
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Qtotonibudinibudet posted:populist largesse to manage your reputation is generally a feature of organized crime, especially where state institutions are weak or corrupt Yeah, but... it is. Some insect-licking junkie on an island killed that foreign mercenary. It was corporate mercenaries who shoot up the main square. And it's you shaking people down for bribes and stealing their racist mugs and hats. Evrart lives in a shipping container with a stuffed swordfish, he's not stealing the worker's labor to buy a Cor-de-Leite '19 racing yacht. Martinaise is a conquered hellhole, watched over by a coalition gunship that will rain down death if it steps out of line. The Claires are fighting to change that, and they still find time to take care of the sick, the poor, and the stupid.
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Nov 22, 2023 10:54
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Ok, I bought the game on PS5, been interested for quite a while! Any newbie tips and character build stuff if you probably are only doing one playthrough and don't want it to be notably tough? I know messing around and failing at stuff is part of the charm too. And here's my haven't played it yet idea for my character build: Intelligence - 4 Psyche - 4 Physique - 2 Motorics - 2 Signature skill: Suggestion (in Psyche) Also want Empathy, Inland Empire, Volition Int: Visual Calculus, Conceptualization Physique: Endurance (health), Motorics: Perception, Composure, Hand eye coordination, Based on just random tips I saw somewhere and what looked interesting to me. Are these stats and things sensible, or should I do something else?
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Nov 22, 2023 11:20
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you can't really go wrong with your build. the only thing close to a trap is a build that only gives you 1 mental or physical hitpoint which you've avoided. you'll have 2 physical hp, just save often, make sure you have healing items on hand, and remember you have a few seconds to activate one between losing your last hp and actually dying also beware the thread, untagged spoilers are rampant
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Nov 22, 2023 11:41
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